Get Everything Done

Hi all,

Mark, I pre-ordered your book when you first announced it and it was a nice surprise to see it downloading onto my Kindle. Over the years I've bought all your books and I've always got something out of them, so please firstly accept my thanks for your writing and in particular all you do to answer all the questions you get on this forum. This community is the best productivity site on the web!

I read your introduction chapter and then divided straight onto Chapter 9, on time management. I'm guessing I'm not the only person that did that!

The system that you describe is so simple on first read (and I've now read it three times) and at the same time terrifying! Mark wants me to keep everything fresh from my head! Is my memory up to the task.

I did try and search your site to see if you had mentioned this system before but I couldn't find any references to it. It may well be that it has been given a different title. If anybody has any links I would appreciate it.

I have a number of questions that I am hoping you will be able to answer. If there has been discussed before please could somebody give me a link? I would be very grateful.

1. How do you handle projects? Lets take the example of building a house. You decide to build yourself a new house.

My first step might be to open Microsoft Word and scope the project, e.g.

Find piece of land
Research architect practices
Research building firms
..
..
..
After 30 minutes you end up having 50 different tasks


If I am understanding your system, you are suggesting the important part is to keep everything "Fresh" in your head. There simply wouldn't be a project scope type document. You would simply put the first item on your list and progress that way. I'm I understanding that right? No project planning as such?

2. How do you handle interruptions. You have your 5 todos and working away. Your boss ask you to do X. You tell him that's fine I will do it later. Over the course of the day 2 other people ask you to do various things. Are you suggesting that you simply don't bother noting these things down and simply rely on the fact that they will be added to your list will you have free space on it? Its all simply down to your memory?

3. How do you handle follow ups? I send a customer an email. I want to follow up with that customer in 7 days. Do you simply use your diary and put an appointment in there? Or do you just assume that you will remember to deal with it when the times right?

4. How do you deal with the order that you do the work. You have 5 to dos. Pick any and then continuing picking any on the list going until you have two left?

5. I'm guessing that you simply use an a4 loose leaf binder as per usual for this system?

Thank you
Newguy

I'm not skipping around in the book and I'm at about chapter 11 right now. I'm actually using the system from the book right now since I wasn't using a system anyway. One thing I'm doing is along with the current 5 items is I'm also making a note of "system" problems. By system I mean things that I don't have routine enough that it is causing me problems (something that Mark has talked about earlier in the book). I'm also spending the weekend with my kids, and noting down things they want to do. If I were at work I might have a list of things that I need to do for my job responsibilities. However, so far I have just been working those into my 5 items as needed. I don't use the other lists to draw from right now.

I think there are chapters up ahead about projects. If I were doing the project you mentioned, I would have "plan house" on the list, and occasionally I would have "review plan" and that way I'd also put items onto the 5-item list as needed as well. Maybe "house project" could just be a permanent item on the list.

Now that you mention it, I noted one item to follow up on later. In my case it might be good to use some form of electronic reminder (calendar on my phone which allows you to set alerts).

For question 4, he says to do them in the order they appear.

I would guess he'd suggest using FVP now. However one thing I like about this system is you don't have to go through a list of items to select your tasks, and you can start fresh each day. This fits in well with how I don't stick with a list very well and keep starting new ones anyway, and looking over old lists is (as Mark pointed out in the book) basically looking over a list of things you might have or could have done but didn't.

I think it's interesting that you are listing questions since that is a technique mentioned in the early chapters as well. You could think about each question and come up things to try that will work for you.

I've been suffering cognitive dissonance since reading Chapter 9. Is the 5T system described there superseded by FPV?

So the question still remains. Is '5T' a better system to FVP?

@ubi:

Yes, FVP of course. I was suffering from AO (acronym overload).

I had high hopes that this new book would have a new system that improves on DIT, which is the system that continues to work the best for me. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy everything that Mark writes, and there's lots of great stuff in this book, but so far it's just not what I was expecting. Maybe DIT just can't be beaten (for me)?

I gave this 5T thing a try and decided that while it's a useful productivity tool for getting a lot done during a block of discretionary time, it's just that: a tool, not necessarily a "system".

I have some of the same major concerns that Newguy brought up. My memory is bad. If I don't keep a list of commitments made then they'll fall out of my head and I'll become the unreliable guy. Imagine that my boss asked me to complete a low urgency task by tomorrow or the end of the week. If I didn't write it down then I'd either have to do this low urgency task "right now because if I don't, then it'll never get done" or simply forget to do it until he asks for an update. At which point I've dropped the ball and he feels like I can't work without supervision.

But I haven't finished the book yet, maybe my concerns have been answered in a later chapter and I just need to be patient :)

True, and my question to myself was "will I forget about and fail to deliver on promises using 5T alone?" the answer being "yes, you should keep using DIT, as it continues to work well, and why change a system that works".

But I posted anyway in case someone else can add a different perspective that I hadn't considered, and maybe enlighten me to a better system that I'm missing out on. I'm always on the lookout for "a better system" as the benefits of improving my effectiveness at work and life are so huge.

I've actually adapted it somewhat. I really like that it creates a record of your day as you go. I put each day on its own page (because you start a new list). I put the 5T part in the middle. Then I list any scheduled activities I have for the day on a column on the right. On the left, I have been putting interruptions and other people agendas on the left (I kind of think of it as the "below the line" part in DIT in the sense that it shows the interruptions, even though it doesn't close the list). Then I draw little arrows from the left or right to show where the appointments and interruptions fit into the sequence, and in that way, I have a record for the day. I've also been using the left column to make notes of "system" or "low-level" improvements that could be made, related to things I'm working on at work and home. That is, things that aren't optimal and would go better if they were fixed. I'll have to think about how to incorporate those. Or maybe I just focus on whatever improvement needs to be done as I go, adding them to the 5T list as I think of them. It's an open question.

I'm still only on chapter 16 so far. I feel like each chapter has an entire e-book's worth of ideas. I'm taking notes as I go.

Mark, with the utmost respect as I'm a big fan of your work, you haven't actually attempted to answer any of my questions or really provided any insight at all. You just make me wish I'd kept my mouth shut.

I've thought hard on the limitations of the 5T method and think it's a great tool, except for the part where you say it's important not to use a "master list" to feed it. I honestly want to know what you suggest instead, or if anyone else has any advice, as I feel that without having a master list on paper, I'll still have a master list but it'll be in my head, constantly stressing about forgetting to do something that is a part of my responsibilities.

I'm also curious about this question of forgetting things if you don't have a master list. Mark did write that "you can use reminders for specific items you don't want to forget, but that is all".

So I guess to use Dan's example, if your boss asks you to do a low-priority task by the end of the week, and you're worried that you might forget it, then you could use some sort of external reminder for it. Maybe put "Have I done X?" in your calendar for Friday morning, or whatever.

On the other hand, if you start making a *list* of things you don't want to forget, and keep adding to it all those things you'd like to do, or could possibly do, or think you ought to do, then your reminder system has become another master list -- and Mark describes quite eloquently in that chapter why having a master list (or any sort of persistent list) is a bad idea.

So I guess it comes down to how many reminders will you need? Maybe we think we need a lot more reminders than we actually need...

Just my two cents worth...

- Erik.

PS: I really like the way Mark suggests we ask ourselves questions and look for possible answers. I think we can all come up with solutions to these sorts of questions if we work at it. I'm still reading Mark's book, and have skipped around a bit, but so far I really like what he has to say...

At least part of this is learning to trust your subconscious to feed you the things you should be doing. Maybe, if you used this method over time that ability would improve. And if you do forget something, maybe the thing you forgot wasn't all that important in the first place and, if it was, then next time you might be less likely to forget as you are tuning up your memory/brain/mind.

The feel of this system, for me, is that when I engage with it, I am more alert, more present, and more on point, than I would be if I am simply reading off a long list items some of which might have been on there for quite a while.

I think the advice is somewhat tautological because Dan can simply say that he answered the question himself with the answer that it would be valuable to solicit input from others.

Mark,
Certainly, and don't get me wrong, I thought you made an important point. At the same time, I wouldn't want all your forum participants to walk away with the idea that it is never valuable to ask questions on (a) clarifying your intent or (b) getting insight from your and others' experiences. The forum would evaporate.

Please can I thank everybody for taking the time to respond. I've been trying out the system now for a few days and I have been asking myself lots of questions!

The first time management system I used was GTD and for a few years this was very successful for me. Well it felt like it was successful but it was actually taking so much time to manage and it gave me such a feeling of overwhelm every time I had to do a review.

After that I went onto DIT which again was better than GTD but I fell into the trap of giving myself too much work to do each day, that it was simply unmanageable. At some point I've tried most of Mark's other systems but came away absolutely hating the idea of seeing on my tasks on a big never ending list. It was the sense of being overwhelmed that caused each to fail.

My own current system meant that I had an Outlook Task for each of my project. In the notes section, I outlined all the tasks for that project. I have to confess that this was failing too as I was never updating the tasks!

So when I read about the Secrets system as well as being scared about trying to remember everything I was extremely excited about it. Mark was absolutely right about master lists being out of date and a pain in the backside to manage.

My problem is that GTD and everything else in between has pre-programmed me to "Get it out of my head" and "write it down". Interesting I have a lot of colleagues who have never read any productivity books! A lot of these people cope without writing everything down.

I originally asked 5 questions and looking back I was probably being a bit lazy. I now know the answers to 4 of those questions.

For me I like that fact that you cannot be overwhelmed by having 5 to dos. I also like the fact that you get to start fresh each day or whenever you need to and that there is so little management time required to run the system.

The main question for me was actually the how do you cope without a Master List (tasks and projects). Well as addressed above, I don't think I was coping that well with them. I deleted my master list of Monday and to date, I still have a job! I've no idea how things are going in the long term.

I think what I was really asking Mark was, given you have experience of actually using the system for a period of time, how did you find not having master lists.

I now know that I will be able to answer that question myself in a few months

Newguy

I am probably in the minority here, but I found the 5T system the least valuable part of the book. I did consider using it, but then I realized that I am happy with FVP, and in the book Mark does caution about change for the sake of change.

My big take away from the book was about refining my commitments, since I tended to throw any idea that popped into my head into the list, and this lead to overwhelm and procrastination.

So, now I have a list of commitments, with a note to review it in the FVP list, and below that I write the things that pop into my head, that I might want to add to the commitment list. Nothing that is not part of a commitment goes onto the FVP list anymore. After a week of this, I feel far more focused, although it does take some willpower not to run off on a tangent (about half an hour ago, I really had to fight hard to prevent myself from diving into research Ubuntu scopes)

I was wondering what your system for managing commitments is, Mark, if you do not mind sharing it with us?

Anyway, thanks for a very enlightening book, Mark!

Once again can I thank everybody for there thoughts. I've been using the system now for a week and so far so good.

I would say: Let`s not consider the 5T system to be the cornerstone of Mark`s new book. I feel we are in such a danger, because we like to discuss mainly "task systems" in this forum. But productivity is not "the way I choose next task/organise my tasks" as some naive reader of this forum could understand. I have found many fresh and interesting ideas in the book (some of them probably not terribly new for a reader of this forum, but especially the interpretation and connections are interesting = the whole book philosophy).

As for 5T system, I tested it and it works very well for "momentary time management" (what to do now, how to control your present actions) - it reduces resistance, helps with motivation and keeps momentum. For me, it works in similar way as randomness, timeboxes or eat-the-frog approach (it means it works well). And I am glad I have new tool which I can use when I will feel like it.

However, I would never consider it a replacement for my task management system. I cannot imagine somebody with somehow complicated and various work responsibilities for many projects, people etc. + many other hobby projects could afford it. Also I would never trash my Someday lists, as I do not consider them to be endless tasklists to draw new tasks from (and feeling anxiety over their endlessness), but more as my source of motivation, overview, dreams about my life, contact with my "previous and future self" etc. I am completely satisfied when only 20% of Someday lists is done or will be done somewhen in the future. These lists are for me not "what needs to be done" but lists of ideas, cues, inspirations.

As Mark says in the book: Look for systems which help you. IMO, if e.g. you will find that GTD/Covey is The System for you, why not to use it (with master list and someday lists). In that context, I interpret Mark`s "do not use any someday/maybe lists or master lists" in Chapter 9 more than general advice as little bit hyperbole for explaining 5T method or as experience from his current life situation (retired + narrower spectrum of responsibilities - only which he wants to focus on).

Much more important is the message of the whole book: which for me is definitely not dogmatic: "Use 5T and nothing else", but "Find systems, use little and often, narrow your focus etc etc"

Thanks Mark, I liked it.

'5T' - are the tasks done in sequential order or actually in any order? Also, is the list reloaded if the 5 tasks get done? (Would I find it helpful to reload the list? Probably yes, although I could just write one or two tasks if I'm getting tired).

I've got a day per page diary so could simply write appointments and reminders in that and use big post it notes to get my 5 tasks down.

Leon,
Do you have the book? There are only 6 short rules and they answer your questions. For example, you work them in the order they are written, cross them off when you are done working them for now, rewrite them at the bottom of the list if you aren't done, and replenish the list up to 5 items when you get down to 2.

Mark,
are we allowed to re-post them here verbatim? Or are you planning to?

Time to get the book I reckon! Thanks Don R !

...Back to FVP (no question) -- it keeps getting me out of trouble, very quickly!

Mark:

<<The vast majority of people, even in executive positions, survive somehow without any time management system at all!>>

You are right. Many people do not need to use any TM system at all. It was overstatement. I wanted to say: "I cannot imagine myself...". And I tried it several times - I wrote here about my experiments with total abandonment of TM systems and with their gradual re-building. So I know from my experience that I need more layers of tasklists: Daily/Week/Tasks-By-Projects etc, however old-fashioned it can seem on this forum :-). And I am completely happy with it for more than year, combining these lists with techniques like randonmness, time-box, now 5T etc. Why I write it now here, is not because of my ego-flaunting, but for encourangment for other people here who still seek for their system. My experience is: it does not have to be any "pre-approved" system. It should be something what plainly works for you even if it is not terribly attractive or if it is not what everybody else promotes now. (I guess many users of this forum came to the same conclusions)

As for Someday Lists: Yes, I review them once per several weeks with such focus (what changed, what is still valid, what I should focus to more, what I lack etc)

This thread has me rethinking the GTD assumption that the "stuff" of our work needs to be out of our heads and into a reliable system. Otherwise, as the story goes, we create "psychic drag" that prevents us from working in an undistracted "mind like water" state. I recently switched to the 5t method, just to try it out, and I have had great success with it - so much so that I've abandoned my list entirely for the last few days. Much to my surprise, my world hasn't collapsed into a chaotic mess of unreliability and I haven't been fired (yet). Nor am I about to collapse under the fear that I might be missing some life and death task that will keep the world turning. This "no list" experience is challenging the assumption that I have always held to be an axiom from my GTD days - that our brains are fundamentally unreliable at holding information. This is obviously true for things like calendar dates, but maybe not for tasks. I'm not sure where I'm going with this comment, except that maybe our minds are more reliable than we think (literally).
If I may make one more somewhat unrelated point. My favourite system that came out of this forum is the random list, and it worked, not because of universal capture, but because it melted resistance. So with no list, I still feel resistance to difficult tasks, but isn't that somewhat natural? I appeal to the virtue of fortitude, which is a habit that can be strengthened with practice. Maybe the random method was actually weakening my fortitude.
I Always enjoy this forum.

"The major reason I like a "no list" system is that it prevents the endless adding of tasks and responsibilities that happens with a "grasscatcher" list. It also means you are constantly up to date with what is important in the moment."

I couldn't agree more. A long time ago I saw a video of David Allen speaking at Google. He said to his audience that pretty much all of them probably had to-do lists of about 200 items or so. I thought to myself then that if I had a to-do list of 200 I'd probably kill myself. With a list that long you would never get them all done. You would always be in a state of overwhelm crushed under the oppressive weight of that list.

Socrates bemoaned the invention of writing saying that it would ruin our memory. Seems he was right.

I thought 200 was a lot as well, there are some on this forum who have stated they had that many tasks. Since anyone can divide their work up into whatever "granularity" they choose, perhaps the number of tasks on our lists is only a function of how many tasks we want to put on the list, and not on what we actually have to do.
What a great forum - Socrates, Evagrius, Aquinas...

I agree with both Seraphim and Mark. If I needed to be constantly reminded about everything by my co-workers, bosses, friends and families, I would soon get the well deserved reputation of being unreliable. But what does it mean to be reminded? My world is filled with constant reminders of everything I need to do, in fact I would say that unless I lock myself in a vacuum, it would be impossible to avoid being reminded. Just sitting at my desk, I have all kinds of reminders of things I have to do, and even just seeing someone will call to mind something I need to do. With an absolutely minimum amount of mental effort, I dismiss all these reminders and focus on the work at hand. But the reminders will still be there. In fact, having a list of tasks in no way minimizes the presence of these reminders - they're still there and even with a list, I still have to make the mental effort to focus on the task at hand.
So, lets say the worst thing happens - something falls through the cracks and I get one of those "hey, haven't heard from you about blah blah blah that you promised to get back to me about." Well, first, there's your reminder, and second, this happens from time to time with or without a list. In fact, I'm not sure a list will help with this at all, if you forget to put it on it.
I would say, in fact, that reminders are pervasive and need to be trusted, and to some extent (calendars and lists) can be controlled and used as tools, within limits. The idea of a list for me has never been to move all my reminders to one place, but just to have one more kind of reliable reminder. I would say the same with calendar's and putting a file next to my keys so I won't forget it tomorrow morning. But what I'm discovering is that I don't need as many "extra" reminders as I thought - there are enough in my environment. In fact, right now, I'm not using a list at all. Maybe a list just adds to the clutter. Further, will a list ever be complete? I can close it, which is helpful from time to time, but even a closed list is incomplete. Reminds me of Godel.

Have been trying the 5T list for some days. Its currently at 19 items! But that's ok because I go on leave tomorrow night and I need to clear a lot of small items and being used to AV, FVP etc I can manage that and clear that. But the first few days my 5 items were items like "how can I make sure a major project due in 2 months gets sufficient attention well in advance?" and " why am I always reluctant to work on one specific project?" and "how can I best support a member of my staff who is having issues with another department within the organisation?" and "how can I rearrange my working day, even if I can't change it for a few weeks due to existing commitments to make sure my future commitments are met by protecting my best time?" In reality the list read

1.put times in diary for project x
2. try to get someone else to do project y
3.sort out staff matter with ICT
4. tell staff no meetings in morning from now on
5. check emails

Note these are items but they are really the questions above to help deliver my commitments and be more productive. And to be honest that constant self questioning/assessing/planning is genuinely less stressful.

This thread has been interesting because there is a new system, and as always we ask questions about the workings of it but to me the key is to do the right things well rather than wade through ALL of the items we could do and Mark's book is very thought provoking. To those who have followed his books and this website the book is a fascinating progression from Mark's first book which has always been my favourite (and is the one most referenced in his latest) via various systems we have all tried and liked (or not!) back to Regular Sufficient Focussed Attention to all our (whole hearted) commitments (even if they are handed out by your boss you still have to commit fully to them or they won't get done).

I think its a great addition to Mark's books and as I once posted here, Mark is the only world authority on this subject you can actually engage with in real time and I really appreciate that.

Oh well, back to the 19 items!!

The list is the origin of culture. It’s part of the history of art and literature. What does culture want? To make infinity comprehensible. It also wants to create order — not always, but often.

And how, as a human being, does one face infinity? How does one attempt to grasp the incomprehensible? Through lists, through catalogs, through collections in museums and through encyclopedias and dictionaries.

There is an allure to enumerating how many women Don Giovanni slept with: It was 2,063, at least according to Mozart’s librettist, Lorenzo da Ponte. We also have completely practical lists — the shopping list, the will, the menu — that are also cultural achievements in their own right.”

~ Umberto Eco


http://www.brainpickings.org/2011/12/22/umberto-eco-on-lists/

Christopher:

the attempting to grasp the incomprehensible IS the problem; the urge for conceptual thinking. Instead, tolerate uncertainty - reduce the addiction to know, to be effective and in control. Reduce the pressure and urgency to get answers. Feel for hunches, intuitions, inklings.

"Truth waits for eyes unclouded by longing."

This may sound like an odd comparison, but working without a list is like learning to preach without notes. Most clergy that I know begin their preaching careers with copious notes in front of them, or at least some kind of outline. Less is always better, but the fear is that we'll forget some important point or get lost in our thoughts and go blank and freeze up or something, unless we have our notes in front of us. Having notes in front of us is a kind of safety valve. However, some of us, myself included, are able to take the leap of standing in front of the congregation with a well tuned homily or sermon and deliver it without notes. And it is a leap, and not an easy on at first, because it is risky. But the end result is so much better, there is so much more engagement with the congregation. But here's the thing. For me (not speaking on behalf of all clergy of course), it's all or nothing. Once I start along the path of no notes, if I get chicken during a sermon and refer back to my notes I get totally derailed, lose my train of thought and lose my connection with the audience. It's not the end of the world, or anything, but when I first started making that transition to no notes, I would try it for a minute or two, freewheeling it if you will, and then get derailed when I went back to my notes. And make no mistake, I have a very well prepared homily, but I don't even try to remember it, it just comes to me as I'm preaching. Much like a conversation with a friend about a particular topic. Absolutely nothing is memorized.
These last two weeks I've been working without a list, and that's exactly how I feel. I feel much more engaged with my work, everything is getting done. Strangely, like the sermon without notes, if I got back to a list, even for a moment or two, I suddenly feel derailed, distracted, stressed, like I've lost momentum.
So here's my point. Working without a list is a scary risk, but for me its been so worth it. I say the same thing to new pastors who want to preach without notes: I can't guarantee that you won't forget the whole thing as soon as you start. But oddly, you don't. Without a list, I can't guarantee that you won't forget something important or work on the wrong thing and end up a miserable failure, but oddly I haven't. At least not so far.