Discussion Forum > 'How to Make Your Dreams Come True' applied to Stoicism
This is brilliant.
This is exactly where I am currently - at crossroads.
I am reading the 'Daily Stoic' by Ryan Holiday on one side and I am reading 'Dreams' by Mark Forster on the other.
I found both to be fantastic in their own rights. I found it so enlightening and couldn't have asked for better.
However, I found them fundamentally odds with each other.
Stoic - suggests to do the tasks that ought to be done
Dreams - do only when you feel like doing it.
How to combine the both.
The best thing is both use journaling as a technique to think, reflect and course correct.
This is exactly where I am currently - at crossroads.
I am reading the 'Daily Stoic' by Ryan Holiday on one side and I am reading 'Dreams' by Mark Forster on the other.
I found both to be fantastic in their own rights. I found it so enlightening and couldn't have asked for better.
However, I found them fundamentally odds with each other.
Stoic - suggests to do the tasks that ought to be done
Dreams - do only when you feel like doing it.
How to combine the both.
The best thing is both use journaling as a technique to think, reflect and course correct.
February 5, 2020 at 5:31 |
Sathya
Sathya
Sathya:
<< I found them fundamentally odds with each other. >>
If that's what you thought, then you've misunderstood at least one of them.
<< Stoic - suggests to do the tasks that ought to be done
Dreams - do only when you feel like doing it. >>
The whole point of the dialoguing is to refine your vision and internalize what needs to be done so that your intuition will lead you to do what needs doing by making you feel like doing it.
<< The best thing is both use journaling as a technique to think, reflect and course correct. >>
Yes, that's exactly what I'm proposing with the dialoguing.
<< I found them fundamentally odds with each other. >>
If that's what you thought, then you've misunderstood at least one of them.
<< Stoic - suggests to do the tasks that ought to be done
Dreams - do only when you feel like doing it. >>
The whole point of the dialoguing is to refine your vision and internalize what needs to be done so that your intuition will lead you to do what needs doing by making you feel like doing it.
<< The best thing is both use journaling as a technique to think, reflect and course correct. >>
Yes, that's exactly what I'm proposing with the dialoguing.
February 5, 2020 at 10:53 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Thanks a lot Mark for the clarification
"The whole point of the dialoguing is to refine your vision and internalize what needs to be done so that your intuition will lead you to do what needs doing by making you feel like doing it."
These are the words I needed to hear.
I am into the 7th day of doing self-coaching. The conversation between FS and PS is getting me interested. It is better than long form journaling in someways. Because it is more engaging.
I liked how Ryan was using the same to keep himself up with Stoic way of life.
Parallely, I am also using Simple scanning method to help me work on tasks, as and when I feel like. I let go of a more restrictive daily closed (sometimes open) list system, which I was doing diligently for a week.
Will keep you reported on how it goes.
Only problem, I seem to have is the shiny object syndrome (SOS). When I read about great experiments that you and others do, I always feel that what I am doing is not enough and it needs to be 'improved'. I let go of what I am doing and then go towards it. Not sure how exactly I can handle this. The Stoics have some suggestions.
But let's see. Not sure where my mind makes a full U-turn :)
"The whole point of the dialoguing is to refine your vision and internalize what needs to be done so that your intuition will lead you to do what needs doing by making you feel like doing it."
These are the words I needed to hear.
I am into the 7th day of doing self-coaching. The conversation between FS and PS is getting me interested. It is better than long form journaling in someways. Because it is more engaging.
I liked how Ryan was using the same to keep himself up with Stoic way of life.
Parallely, I am also using Simple scanning method to help me work on tasks, as and when I feel like. I let go of a more restrictive daily closed (sometimes open) list system, which I was doing diligently for a week.
Will keep you reported on how it goes.
Only problem, I seem to have is the shiny object syndrome (SOS). When I read about great experiments that you and others do, I always feel that what I am doing is not enough and it needs to be 'improved'. I let go of what I am doing and then go towards it. Not sure how exactly I can handle this. The Stoics have some suggestions.
But let's see. Not sure where my mind makes a full U-turn :)
February 6, 2020 at 4:06 |
Sathya
Sathya
“ The whole point of the dialoguing is to refine your vision and internalize what needs to be done so that your intuition will lead you to do what needs doing by making you feel like doing it.”
This finally makes sense!
The goals are the same, but the journey towards it is the essential difference.
Push vs Pull ☺️
Funny. I’m using Dreams method to get me read the Dreams method book!
Haha!
This finally makes sense!
The goals are the same, but the journey towards it is the essential difference.
Push vs Pull ☺️
Funny. I’m using Dreams method to get me read the Dreams method book!
Haha!
September 27, 2023 at 19:17 |
Sathya
Sathya
This reminds me of a comment by Mark (some tim ago!) that the point of a future goal is how it changes current behaviour
October 25, 2023 at 19:59 |
michael
michael
“ The whole point of the dialoguing is to refine your vision and internalize what needs to be done so that your intuition will lead you to do what needs doing by making you feel like doing it.”
Reminiscent of that taoist? zen? saying: Do without doing, think without thinking. You're not doing the thing (ie, calculating, planning, getting the ego involved). The thing is simply being done and reality is using your hands to do it.
"Standing out" when scanning a list is another way to phrase it, at least for me.
Reminiscent of that taoist? zen? saying: Do without doing, think without thinking. You're not doing the thing (ie, calculating, planning, getting the ego involved). The thing is simply being done and reality is using your hands to do it.
"Standing out" when scanning a list is another way to phrase it, at least for me.
October 26, 2023 at 14:17 |
Mike Brown
Mike Brown
Hm, this is interesting. I was reading somewhere the other day (maybe on this forum? I can't remember hahaha) about our propensity to decide what to do (based on emotion or intuition) and then come up with rational explanations for our decisions afterward.
There was some research on the scientific method, and the process of innovation, that had similar observations. The whole process of discovery is coming up with some idea (based on emotion and intuition) and then assiduously examining it with our powers of logic and reason to test the idea and find the holes in it. Then come up with improvements to the idea, again guided by emotion and intuition, and then logically scrutinizing it.
I wonder if "goal setting" is like that, but it often goes astray by engaging our logical "oughts" before we've really clarified what our emotions and intuitions are saying about the matter. And so we come up with vapid mission statements and impossible 2-year plans and conflicted OKRs that are completely disconnected from reality. Whereas if we started with our intuition and let it flow and develop naturally, alternating intuitive insight with analytical rigor, maybe we'd be in better alignment with "the thing being done".
There was some research on the scientific method, and the process of innovation, that had similar observations. The whole process of discovery is coming up with some idea (based on emotion and intuition) and then assiduously examining it with our powers of logic and reason to test the idea and find the holes in it. Then come up with improvements to the idea, again guided by emotion and intuition, and then logically scrutinizing it.
I wonder if "goal setting" is like that, but it often goes astray by engaging our logical "oughts" before we've really clarified what our emotions and intuitions are saying about the matter. And so we come up with vapid mission statements and impossible 2-year plans and conflicted OKRs that are completely disconnected from reality. Whereas if we started with our intuition and let it flow and develop naturally, alternating intuitive insight with analytical rigor, maybe we'd be in better alignment with "the thing being done".
October 27, 2023 at 6:41 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Jon Acuff “All it takes is a Goal” proposes a 3-phase plan to goal setting:
1) Make tiny goals
2) Make medium goals
3) Make big goals
But the key that aligns with your assessment of goal setting is you engage your intuitive side. You pick a tiny goal concerning something you think you want, and then you pursue it, and your intuition and practice will help you decide if it’s a good goal for you. If it doesn’t work on a tiny scale, throw out the goal and make a different tiny goal. So the really big goals in this system are never made without a good couple months of trying it to make sure you are willing and able to do this kind of work to this end. You won’t ever here create a vapid mission statement or impossible 2-year plan because the only such missions and plans that ever get committed to you’ve already proven realistic and valuable.
1) Make tiny goals
2) Make medium goals
3) Make big goals
But the key that aligns with your assessment of goal setting is you engage your intuitive side. You pick a tiny goal concerning something you think you want, and then you pursue it, and your intuition and practice will help you decide if it’s a good goal for you. If it doesn’t work on a tiny scale, throw out the goal and make a different tiny goal. So the really big goals in this system are never made without a good couple months of trying it to make sure you are willing and able to do this kind of work to this end. You won’t ever here create a vapid mission statement or impossible 2-year plan because the only such missions and plans that ever get committed to you’ve already proven realistic and valuable.
October 28, 2023 at 22:28 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Alan -
That sounds like a reasonable approach - I will have to give it a try!
That sounds like a reasonable approach - I will have to give it a try!
October 31, 2023 at 4:01 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Alan:
<<Jon Acuff “All it takes is a Goal”>>
I heard Jon discussing this book on a podcast. The gist was: "I needed a new book idea, and I noticed people struggled with goal setting so..." Something rubbed me the wrong way about how this book came into being. How long did Jon try out these ideas on himself and others before committing them to a book. One of the things I admire about Mark (as well as David Allen) is that ideas that were publicly announced in book form had time to gestate, bugs worked out, etc.
Now, I'm always open to new ideas, so... Alan in your opinion, is the book worth the time? Have you put into practice the ideas, and if so, for how long? I respect your input on this forum - so if you think it's a worthwhile read, I might give it a shot.
<<Jon Acuff “All it takes is a Goal”>>
I heard Jon discussing this book on a podcast. The gist was: "I needed a new book idea, and I noticed people struggled with goal setting so..." Something rubbed me the wrong way about how this book came into being. How long did Jon try out these ideas on himself and others before committing them to a book. One of the things I admire about Mark (as well as David Allen) is that ideas that were publicly announced in book form had time to gestate, bugs worked out, etc.
Now, I'm always open to new ideas, so... Alan in your opinion, is the book worth the time? Have you put into practice the ideas, and if so, for how long? I respect your input on this forum - so if you think it's a worthwhile read, I might give it a shot.
October 31, 2023 at 15:50 |
avrum
avrum
I audioed the book; I like his speaking style a fair bit. Very conversational, personal. He is a productivity nerd, a goal junkie, not necessarily great at all that stuff but hyper-interested. His philosophy on writing is to choose subjects with 3 criteria, which were something like: I feel I have something different to say, check nothing like it is out there, check if there is demand, and then go.
The ideas in the book were developed and tested in the writing process, and he had a test group to validate his ideas. One of the things he likes doing is collab'ing with university psychologists to study an idea.
The thesis is very Lean, although he doesn't use that term: Start small (re: goal setting), test, and scale what works. So are the book's ideas effective? I'm not sure yet. I got the book last month and am percolating. But it sounds good to me so I am trying to work it into my strategies.
The ideas in the book were developed and tested in the writing process, and he had a test group to validate his ideas. One of the things he likes doing is collab'ing with university psychologists to study an idea.
The thesis is very Lean, although he doesn't use that term: Start small (re: goal setting), test, and scale what works. So are the book's ideas effective? I'm not sure yet. I got the book last month and am percolating. But it sounds good to me so I am trying to work it into my strategies.
October 31, 2023 at 20:27 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Thanks Alan - helpful.
November 1, 2023 at 0:17 |
avrum
avrum
I'm trying to use Mark's 'Dreams' method to develop my Stoic practices and philosophy of life. I though the folks in this forum would be interested to here about it.
http://blog.cerris.com/post/52603638723/stoic-dreams
Ryan