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Discussion Forum > Sticking to the list... short or long.

I've tried most of Mark's systems. I have found the principles behind the systems novel and refreshing. However, I have never been able to sustain my commitment to any of the systems beyond a few days... weeks max. There's a myriad of reasons why this is so. But the primary reason is that - unlike Mark - I can't/won't work from the list all day. So I found this short thread (and advice) on Reddit helpful. To choose an anchor(s) during my day to solely work from the list. And overtime, this will become a habit.

Does anyone else employ something similar? Or do most of you - like Mark - work off the list for most of the day?

https://www.reddit.com/r/productivity/comments/a4lnr2/has_anybody_understood_the_value_of_productivity/
December 9, 2018 at 16:49 | Registered Commenteravrum
Interesting. I do work off my list for most of my (work) days, but I am finding more and more that I will use different methods for processing during the day. When I first come in, I almost always use AF2 revised, which allows me to deal with the end of the list first. After a full cycle around the list, I may do an FV, which gives me focus on preselecte dtasks. I will often do it as a modified 3 or 5T (which I know is officially a no-list method) where I timebox each 3-5 tasks and replace when 2 or 3 are done.

If I am still working, I may go back to AF2 or if the brain is fried, do a Randomizer.

Anyone else switch methods throughout the day.
December 9, 2018 at 23:00 | Unregistered Commentervegheadjones
One way to look at it: you can do any task as long as you feel like. So suppose you pick something you plan to do for the next few hours. You aren't during that time tied to the list.

But in general, I don't stick to following the list all day morning to night. I will pick it up for a time, and at some time I will either switch to a major project or just kind of peter off the list until later.
December 10, 2018 at 2:13 | Registered CommenterAlan Baljeu
<<I will either switch to a major project or just kind of peter off the list until later.>>

I have done the same. And then my thinking goes: If I’m working away from the list/system, I don’t need it.

My goal is to find a less haphazard way of leaving/returning to the structure and rules of Simple Scanning.
December 10, 2018 at 13:35 | Registered Commenteravrum
As I said in the first paragraph: If "Work on Project X" is your selection, doing that for an extended period of time is not actually leaving the structure, but is actually following the rules.

Another way is to schedule it. When the alarm goes, switch modes between working the list and doing that other thing.
December 10, 2018 at 21:07 | Registered CommenterAlan Baljeu
You can write things like this on your list:
Wrap up loose ends, 45 min
Free flow, up to 5 tasks
SMEMA chain, 7 tasks (SMEMA = write 3 things, do 2, write 2 more...)
Cherry-pick whole list for things related to X
Switch to favorite No-List system for 2 hours...

Dot one, and leave the list without leaving it.
December 11, 2018 at 21:19 | Registered CommenterBernie
avrum wrote:
<< And then my thinking goes: If I’m working away from the list/system, I don’t need it. >>

I don't think about it that way.

When I need to go somewhere, I can often just walk. Does that mean I never need a car or a plane?

When I need to fix something, I can often just use a screwdriver. Does that mean I never need the other things in my toolbox?

I prefer to work off list when I can. Just take care of things as they show up.

For example, for helping around the house, this works great. For larger things that need repeated sustained effort, I need something to help keep track of the details and keep the momentum going.

Another example, at work, sometimes I am in meetings all day, and have a few minutes in between meetings for responding to urgent emails. No list needed. Other days I can get absorbed in an important task for several hours and don't need the list.

But whether at home or at work, I'd guess about 60-70% of the time, working from some kind of trusted system really helps stay focused and responsive and get the right things done.
December 11, 2018 at 21:31 | Registered CommenterSeraphim
Also, for anyone else who had trouble accessing that link, here is a live version:
http://www.reddit.com/r/productivity/comments/a4lnr2/has_anybody_understood_the_value_of_productivity/

avrum, was there something specific in that thread that caught your attention?

I like the stability of using the same system but am also always trying to improve. I guess if we are always tinkering we never have stability. So we need to find a more effective way of resolving this conflict between stability and improvement. But I would guess that living completely without systems would only exacerbate that conflict not resolve it.
December 11, 2018 at 21:32 | Registered CommenterSeraphim
Actually, the Duhigg article linked from that discussion forum discusses exactly this topic:
http://www.fastcompany.com/3062639/why-the-most-productive-people-constantly-change-their-methods
December 11, 2018 at 21:47 | Registered CommenterSeraphim
Here's a quote:

<< The most productive people frequently try new systems instead of finding and sticking with a single method that fits their style. “For six months, they’ll use a version of [David Allen’s Getting Things Done] with files and ticklers,” says Duhigg. “Then, they’ll decide to try a new system, maybe using color-coded tabs and inboxes. Then they’ll find another new system,” he says. “Constantly cycling through systems forces you to think about your own productivity.” >>
December 12, 2018 at 5:03 | Registered CommenterSeraphim
…from the quoted article:

>> The most productive people frequently try new systems instead of finding and sticking with a single method that fits their style. <<

Ha! No! In his books, on his website and here on the forum Mark always stresses the importance of consistency, so I guess it is preaching to the choir to say that constantly switching systems lowers your productivity.


>> Constantly cycling through systems forces you to think about your own productivity. <<

Because you'll find this leads you to nowhere?

If you are already very productive, you probably continue to search for ways to increase your efficiency.

Most of that does not lie in the "system" but how you perform the work itself. (Once you solved the basic TM problems, which you woulf have if you are amongst the most productive people.)
December 12, 2018 at 7:09 | Unregistered CommenterChristopher
avrum:

>> My goal is to find a less haphazard way of leaving/returning to the structure and rules of Simple Scanning.<<

Here's what I do:

––} one task on my list is "relax", that is anything "non-productive", everything "productive" is on the list

––} when I want to go off-list, i "do" this task

––) I also close the notebook as a "official" physical sign that I am off-list

––} naturally, when I go back to the list, I know where to proceed and BTW it starts with crossing off a task, yay

––} while the notebook is open, I force myself to work the list.


Yes, as others have mentioned sometimes we have days with no or nearly no discretionary time. Be it because of a full schedule or because one big task just fills the day. Well, on those days I just do the work of that day. The Long List was never meant to manage those days…


BTW, those type of days make me all the more grateful for the time I have with my list.
December 12, 2018 at 9:57 | Unregistered CommenterChristopher
<< You can write things like this...>>

Interesting ideas - thanks.
December 12, 2018 at 13:30 | Registered Commenteravrum
<< avrum, was there something specific in that thread that caught your attention?>>

Yes - the habit/anchor idea. My work setup doesn't allow for this - but I'm thinking of other options.
December 12, 2018 at 13:31 | Registered Commenteravrum
<<Here's what I do>>

Christopher - that's brilliant. I'm going to adopt this and report back.

Also - curious, what do you do for work?
December 12, 2018 at 14:00 | Registered Commenteravrum
To clarify Duhigg let me excerpt:

"For six months, they’ll use.... Then, they’ll decide to try a new system. Constantly cycling through systems forces you to think about your own productivity.”

Clearly 'constant cycling' means once or twice a year, and I would not have chosen the word 'constantly' in this this sense.
December 12, 2018 at 17:05 | Registered CommenterAlan Baljeu
Avrum:

What I found to work best for me is to set a prompt/trigger for each item on my list. My list isn't long and the items on my list only take 30 seconds or less (I make it this way by design). But having prompts for easy behaviors builds repetition, and repetition creates productivity. Some prompts are task based (After I wake up, After I check my calendar), others are time based (After 2 P.M, After 4:30 P.M).
December 12, 2018 at 19:17 | Unregistered CommenterConnor
I wrote:
<< avrum, was there something specific in that thread that caught your attention?>>

And avrum responded:
<< Yes - the habit/anchor idea. My work setup doesn't allow for this - but I'm thinking of other options. >>

Which made me realize I hadn't read your original post closely enough:
<< To choose an anchor(s) during my day to solely work from the list. And overtime, this will become a habit. >>


Ah, OK, now I think I understand where you are going here: Following the habit/anchor idea in the Reddit thread (and apparently borrowed from the Atomic Habits book) - identify one or more anchors to trigger you to open your notebook and work from it. Sounds like a great idea.
December 12, 2018 at 20:03 | Registered CommenterSeraphim
I was chatting earlier today with Melanie, one of the forum old-timers who hasn't been around much lately. She just published a new book based on her series of blog posts from ~5 years ago where she tried out a new time management system every week for a whole year, and blogged the results. The new book is available here: http://grammargalaxybooks.com/product/a-year-of-living-productively-digital/

Interestingly, she makes the same point as Duhigg:

<< When I began outlining the book based on my year of experimenting, I thought I would be writing a best-practices book. I foolishly believed that I could determine which methods would work best for you. The years that followed the series taught me that I couldn’t even predict which methods would work for me! I realized that experimenting with productivity methods IS the best practice. It isn’t something to undertake for just a year but for as long as you desire to get
more done. >>
December 13, 2018 at 2:38 | Registered CommenterSeraphim
avrum:

<< Christopher - that's brilliant. I'm going to adopt this and report back. >>

Thanks! Yes, I am eagerly awaiting your report. Specially how you start your days with this!


<< Also - curious, what do you do for work? >>

I am in a freelance home office situation similar to Mark's. My main income at this time is from graphic design work. My background is also in design.
December 13, 2018 at 4:47 | Unregistered CommenterChristopher
Connor:

Do you then work only for 30 sec on a task before you return to your list or is the 30 sec portion just what's written on the list and you go from there but the tend to work longer on a given task?
December 13, 2018 at 4:50 | Unregistered CommenterChristopher
Interesting post. Sadly I have no solution. Like you I tried many things GTD, MF lists AF1 and so on there is always a time where all goes wrong. I can stick as hardly as I can it will go wrong at a certain point. I call it the parkinson effect. I think the effect is caused by the number of tasks and choices to do. If I put it in a data base such as Omnifocus it is organized but not really engaging in action. If I put it on a MF list it getting longer and longer and at a a certain point impossible for me to make a crucial choice. It is tempting to put relevant stuff in a box but at a certain point I spend more time organizing than doing. So what do I do ? I understand that our brain is able to choose and make optimal choices. I also understand that I am a paper man. So a sheet of paper is better for me than a digital file. Better for thinking, better for acting. All methods are just guideline some works for once and evaluates. The best is to stick to goals first. Then make choices to put your efforts on what matter at the present time. At last make some planification for acting in the future. When things gets complicated I open a paper folder where I jot notes about this sunject and make summarizing later. I try to make things simple. IE braistorming in the morning of my first 10 items juste numbered as they come to me. I try to focus on solution not on tasks. I try to delegate and follow what I attend from others. I put everything on my paper note book one by one and read the list again and again not as an engagement but as a reminder of stuff I need to do. I also accept that I can't do anything but only what matter the most at the present time. I also accept my imperfection. My human nature. I prefer a certain kind of burden that a strict organisation because my brain sorts naturally what must be done. And I also have a very big trash where I jot all my written and irrelevant papers. I try at last to take life as it is. Un permanent. Chaotic. But surprising and opportunistic. At now 56 years old (67 in February 14 th) I understand that methods, structures and so on are just a way of avoiding stuff to do at the right time also that from chaos comes light little by little.
December 13, 2018 at 10:50 | Unregistered CommenterJupiter
Chris:

Yes, I almost always work longer than 30 seconds on a task, but if I complete the task then I don't feel guilty not doing anything more.

The reason I make my tasks tiny is so they always occur. The reason I specify when to do them is to build repetition.

When I started the system, most of the time I would only do the small task, but I would feel successful because that was all I asked myself to do.

Stealing an analogy from the book Mini Habits by Stephen Guise, doing a new behaviour is like introducing a cat to snow for the first time. If you throw the cat into the snow it's just going to run back inside. If you place the cat near the edge of the snow it's more likely to be interested in the snow and venture out when it feels ready.

Our brains like to do what they've already done, introducing something new takes time and repetition. If I start small then this new behaviour wont feel threatening to my brains normal routines.
December 13, 2018 at 21:10 | Unregistered CommenterConnor
I've observed a pattern. It happens naturally, not by plan, and is I think very good.

I start out working in the list doing very small things or small amounts of big things. Gradually I start picking up bigger things and taking longer. Once I get into the flow, I start taking on longer tasks and referencing the list less. I may notice other things that need doing and do them without the list, and then another thing. Then resuming the list and moving on, I ultimately come on something that I will stick to for an hour or more, after which the list falls away. If I do bits in the middle of that long task, it won't be with reference to the list. After I'm done the big task (for now), then I may return to the list again, depending on the hour and mood.
December 15, 2018 at 22:43 | Registered CommenterAlan Baljeu
Update:

I have started a long-list. And while I have not yet worked form the list**, the mere fact that I have one is grounding in some way. I hope to work from the list tomorrow, and share some thoughts at the end of the week about Christopher's workflow.

** my eldest child was sick last week (he's better now), which created havoc for scheduling, productivity etc for the whole family.
December 16, 2018 at 16:00 | Registered Commenteravrum
I find it helps to stick to my list / current system by using a note book I love.

I recently started a BIG (several months) project so I bought a new moleskein to track it in. It has lined pages on the right and blank pages on the left. So I can draw pictures on one side, and make lists on the other side. I like blank pages for non-verbal thinking, sketching and using my brush pen.

Now it also holds my long list, still tracking the BIG project on special pages in the front.

Note book is called Moleskine Two-Go Hard Cover Notebook.
December 21, 2018 at 23:11 | Unregistered CommenterErin
I like Moleskines too. I’ve been using the daily journal notebooks, sometimes pocket size, sometimes “large” (approx. 5”x8”). http://www.amazon.com/Moleskine-Classic-Planner-Pocket-Cinder/dp/B076BXHTHD

I also like Field Notes. http://fieldnotesbrand.com/products/original-kraft

Sometimes I am tempted to get a Midori Traveler’s Notebook but they seem expensive. Has anyone ever tried one of those?
December 25, 2018 at 0:25 | Registered CommenterSeraphim
As a proud cheapskate, I enjoy the power to turn the plainest spiral notebook into a high-powered productivity tool.
December 25, 2018 at 22:02 | Registered CommenterBernie
Seraphim,

There is less expensive Midori type note book at Dick Blick Art, momenta-the-explorer-journal. I made my own cover for one a long time ago using thin leather. The Momenta explorer cover is not real leather. I am thinking of using it for my list in 2019 with a list section, calendar and plain paper sections.

Bernie

I like the idea of a plain notebook too. High quality paper is a main criteria for me. I have found good ones at Target, Greenroomeco.com, is one I like.
December 31, 2018 at 18:54 | Unregistered CommenterErin
I really like the Field Notes, and I am currently using them with a Midori-style leather cover.
December 31, 2018 at 21:08 | Registered Commenternuntym
By Melanie via Seraphim:

<<I realized that experimenting with productivity methods IS the best practice>>

I've been wondering if we could say that it's generally good practise to have a portion of one's time/efforts spent on experimentation. Examples:

- we read what we're interested in but also skim other things to see if anything else catches our interest
- a college degree is often composed of a major plus electives. Those electives could spark entirely new directions.
- we watch YouTube videos from channels we know, and YouTube throws up new channels that might interest us
- we maintain our "base suite" of productivity practises for most of our weeks, but try out new practises with a subset of our activities.
- local governments mostly do business as usual, but some conduct pilot projects for new ideas
- businesses/professionals have time for "professional development" where they might be exposed to new ideas in their field
June 5, 2022 at 22:48 | Unregistered CommenterCharles
Exactly so: anything that never changes becomes stagnant. A novel set of rules can be great at tackling a list of problems, but the work done, and life itself, changes the nature of that list of problems. The rules still function, but the list has changed and the rules may be less effective than they were.

For me, it’s primarily that “familiarity breeds contempt”. The more you know a thing, the more you know its flaws and the more they vex you. Likely it’s possible for a system of rules to fade into the background by focusing on making something else new and exciting (the content of the list, over the form of processing), but a different environment might be better suited to different rules anyhow.

I crave novelty to an extent that I chafe at same-yness, so innovation brings back the attraction. And as Melanie says, there’s value in this because exploring brings new ideas which can lead to improvement. Not exploring keeps the old ideas which may no longer be as effective as they were.
June 9, 2022 at 11:52 | Registered CommenterAlan Baljeu
It's true that there's a sense of boredom that can creep in when something stays the same for a long time, and I'm as susceptible to that as anyone.

However, in some areas, I've discovered that this sometimes is something that you can effectively fight against, and indeed, might derive significant benefit in fighting against. I've found that with a lot of my tools, taking a "simplest available" and "don't change the defaults" approach can actually be liberating. Rather than allowing myself to be tempted to endlessly tweak something, and as a result, never quite be satisfied, because there is always something just a little bit better out there somewhere, even within the tool itself (I can always make it just a little bit better), by *not* allowing myself to tweak things, I find myself somehow a little more accepting, and often I find that I end up being able to use the tools more effectively.

I'm in the minority in my field with regards to this, but I've had extremely good success with this. I learned that the endless tweaking of systems and tools took a pretty heavy toll on my productivity, and when I stopped doing that as much, and letting things "do their thing" rather than changing them all the time, I got better results.

I *think* this holds true for my Time Management systems as well, but I'm not quite sure yet.
June 10, 2022 at 4:56 | Registered CommenterAaron Hsu
Aaron Hsu:

<< I've found that with a lot of my tools, taking a "simplest available" and "don't change the defaults" approach can actually be liberating. >>

I do agree with this. I am well aware that some of my own personal routines are sub-optimal but that paradoxically if I tried to keep them optimised I would get worse results not better results.

I only allow myself to experiment with time management systems because I am retired. When I was actually working I stuck to the same system for years at a time. A lesson which I have constantly repeated over the years is:

"Find a system which suits you and then stick to it."
June 10, 2022 at 9:17 | Registered CommenterMark Forster