To Think About . . .

The price of inaction is far greater than the cost of making a mistake. Meister Eckhart

 

 

 

My Latest Book

Product Details

Also available on Amazon.com, Amazon.fr, and other Amazons and bookshops worldwide! 

Search This Site
Log-in
Latest Comments
My Other Books

Product Details

Product Details

Product Details

The Pathway to Awesomeness

Click to order other recommended books.

Find Us on Facebook Badge

Discussion Forum > Level of task and processing speed

This post is somewhat related to Aaron's queries about different "levels" of tasks in this thread: http://markforster.squarespace.com/forum/post/2785776

By "level" of task, I mean the difference between, say, "War and Peace" and "War and Peace chapter 1" or the difference between "read client X file" and "read client X letter Sept. 3." Mark's general advice in his systems has been to enter tasks at whatever level is most convenient or helpful...

So, over the past while, I've been working in no-list mode. I simply write the next thing I'm going to do before I do it. Most recently, I've added timestamps beside each task to indicate the starting time: e.g. "9:34 email." This has been in an effort to see where I'm wasting time and to speed up my pace of work. I took the suggestion from Mark's first book, "Get Everything Done."

What I've noticed is that I tend to slow down and my attention starts to wander when the tasks are entered at a "high" level (or with a low degree of granularity): in short, when I enter big tasks rather than little tasks. For example: "read client X file" (big task) rather than "read client X letter Sept. 3" (little task). Apparently, the slow down isn't just because the task itself is longer. Even adjusting for proportionality, work seems to go slower when I enter a larger task. My processing speed diminishes.

The obvious corrective here would be to break big tasks into smaller tasks, to enter them at a "lower" level in the first place. The problem (which I anticipate--I haven't thoroughly explored this) is that entering tasks at a very fine level of granularity will likely cause resistance to build against the system. Humans don't like to write down every little thing, and obviously one wouldn't want to take this to absurd extents (e.g. writing "tie shoelaces" as a task). Writing small tasks might increase focus, but then one might grow tired of it and give up on the whole endeavor.

A book I came across recently, David Parker's "The More You Do the Better You Feel" suggests that one basically follow Mark's "Simplest Form of No-List" technique (writing down the next thing before doing it). But Parker emphasizes entering tasks at a highly granular level. He seems to suggest writing tasks in the form on instructions to one's self. So, to repeat the above example: "read client X letter Sept. 3" would be better than simply "client X letter Sept. 3." It's less vague; it tells you what to do. Some of Parker's examples do verge on absurdity: for instance, writing self-instructions to "wash the cups" in the sink, then "wash the plates," etc. rather than simply "wash the dishes." That said, Parker's book seems to be aimed at people who suffer from extreme procrastination (and possibly other issues such as depression). With that audience, there may be a place for this level of granularity, at least at the beginning. Anything is better than paralysis.

I've tried Parker's method of writing out explicit instructions for very granular tasks while doing research and it actually produced good results. My mind was highly concentrated on my work. But (as expressed above), I suspect that one simply can't keep this up for an extended period of time without resistance setting in. (Typing tasks rather than writing them by hand could prevent hand cramping, but it's still a significant undertaking to note down everything.) One plus to Mark's approach (entering tasks at any level) is that it lessens resistance to the idea of writing tasks.

Anyway, I'm curious if anyone has thoughts or solutions to this problem as I've outlined it. Is there a way to achieve task granularity without succumbing to resistance to the very idea of writing out tasks?

Two alternatives which cross my mind are to

1) Allow oneself to enter bigger tasks but have separate project lists/checklists for those tasks.

2) Follow Mark's suggestion of using a timer. This way, bigger tasks would be broken down, but by the timer, not by the act of writing minute tasks separately.

Of these ideas, I prefer the timer, but I haven't tried that extensively.
October 2, 2021 at 15:27 | Registered CommenterBelacqua
I like tasks that are defined with a concrete and meaningful outcome. And also a known manageable scope. “Pick up one dish” is concrete but not a meaningful difference. “Clean kitchen” is desirable but if my kitchen is a disaster it’s not a managed scope. “Wash dishes in sink towards goal of having a clean kitchen” is the right spot psychologically. Ii wouldn’t dream of writing all that in a paper AF system, but digitally where text is easily moved around, it suits me.
October 2, 2021 at 16:22 | Registered CommenterAlan Baljeu
David Allen in is Getting Things Done books has a very good analysis of the the horizons of focus, starting at ground level to 50000 feet:
https://gettingthingsdone.com/2011/01/the-6-horizons-of-focus/
https://gettingthingsdone.com/2008/07/gtd-at-50000-ft-how-to-find-and-fulfill-your-lifes-purpose/

One could further subdivide projects into subprojects. There are time management books that suggest that you break down each 5-year goal into 1- year goals, and then monthly, and then weekly, and finally day. One could break down higher horizons of focus into lower horizons, or synthesize lower horizons into higher ones. Certain software programs will allow to outline all of these. However, the process of analysis and synthesis is an intellectual exercise. It might be useful to examine one's life in this way, but it doesn't necessary lead to action. One could do this with every task. But it might in the end be a substitute for the action, or make every action more bigger than it has to be or lead to analysis paralysis.
I like the idea of making a item as granular as it needs to get it done. Usually I just write "Dishes". I know whether it means to put the dishes in the dishwasher, or put them away, or handwash the dishes. I don't need to write more. However, if a one-word item is not enough to get it done, then perhaps one either needs to go up a level or down a level.
There is advice on keeping a list of projects, or a list of next actions, and not to mix the two.
One might have 100 projects. One might have a next action for each one. I have found it difficult to implement this and be able to keep track of it all, although it is possible some are able to do it. (And then you can put the start date, due date, etc.) Too much time is taken up with organizing the information, more so than necessary. Often just doing it takes less time. I like mixing them together. If there is a problem with an item, more analysis can be done. Or one is using Autofocus, on the next pass, do a little more on the item, perhaps breaking it down, or analyzing what is holding it up.
On a short list, let's say, what I need to do before going a trip in an hour, or leaving for work - I often list what I have to pack, and I might list each item to pack. If I am cooking a meal, I might list the ingredients and the steps. I tend to do it if I am making a salad, but I don't do it if I making breakfast.
However, what David Allen has to say about the horizons of focus is good to know.
October 2, 2021 at 18:08 | Unregistered CommenterMark H.
Here's my opinion about the psychology of this problem, and what I've been exploring and succeeding with right now.

I think the significant difference in "efficiency" between executing a large task and a small task comes down to the caching overhead involved in taking a given "unit" of action on that task. Each time you choose to do a task, your brain has to bring in all of the necessary contextual information from long term storage into working memory to generate a plan of action that eventually reaches a point of granularity in your mind that a given motor program can execute on that action. The smaller the task "size", the less likelihood there is of a large amount of contextual information that has to be brought in. In essence, every time you choose to do a task, your brain has to load up and create a fresh plan of action starting from the "save point" that is represented by your task item. The caching overhead comes because certain larger tasks require significantly more "uploading" and "planning" in your mind to get to the action before you can take action. This slows down your mental efficiency and consumes literally more energy.

The problem with something like GTD with its horizons of focus and the like, as Mark H points out, is that if you a priori decide on a set "granularity" level, you're assuming a uniform overhead and cost mentally for every type of project and action that occurs, and assuming that an external organizational structure will eliminate those overheads, while introducing less external overhead. I don't think that this is the case. Your mind is very good at optimizing certain paths, particularly those that are routine or "well understood." In such cases, you are more mentally efficient at ramping up to action and the mental overhead involved in taking action on that thing is less. But this changes not only between people but it also changes throughout one's life from day or day or hour to hour in how mentally efficient you might be.

This is one of the advantages of Mark F's approach to listing tasks. Instead of forcing a strong external organizational hierarchy that incurs a constant amount of external overhead in the hopes that it will eliminate enough internal overheads to be efficient, you are given the freedom to list things at any granularity level, and you instead work whatever system you are using to guide you to more clarity about a given task, which will manifest in the list in one form or another.

As you train your intuition on this stuff, what I notice is that some projects or large tasks represent large overheads that are resistant to "routinization" and other large tasks naturally tend to routinize over time. The tasks that resist routinization are the same tasks that are likely to manifest reduced efficiency when entered at the larger level of granularity.

IMO, the trick here is that I think as you train your intuition, you can learn to "feel" this overhead hitting you with a given project. You can sort of feel when a project is taking more mental energy and work to spool up. When that happens, the "little and often" part of the workflow becomes externalizing that spooling, caching, and planning that your mind has to do back into your list in a way that will divide the project up into a set of actions that are usually more granular, clear, concrete, and, importantly for me, relatively independent from a "mental space" point of view.

The key insight for me is personally recognizing in my mind that you have already accomplished and done something by having broken this down. You have "worked" on that project by doing this. A lot of people will look at a big project and feel like they haven't taken action on it until they've "done" something visible. But in more complex projects, simply the act of separating out the various parts that you have to take action on and putting them down into steps or independent actions represents meaningful work if it removes the need for you to think about that process again each time you want to work on the project. You've applied little and often at that point.

My experience has been that if I do this, if I feel like I've completely broken down the entire project sufficiently, then I can just cross that project off the list and work from the smaller tasks. I find that then it's *much* easier and faster to take action on those tasks, and I work them "in system" rather than "out of system" like you might imagine is happening in your head when you just work off of a single large task in your list.

So, the thing I do, in principle, is to listen to my intuition and how I feel about a task as I'm working on it, and if I sense an ease or "boring" routinization about it, then I will leave it as a larger task and just do a little routine work on it and move forward (such as email or cleaning the office), whereas if I start to feel that my mind is working hard to think about a lot of interdependent requirements or the like in order to start taking action on a single piece (there's multiple levels or abstractions in the project), then I will stop trying to take immediate action on things (which might lead to procrastination/resistance) and instead take the time to write out all of the work that my mind has already done on the project to figure out what needs to be done, so that I've reified my mind's mental map and no longer need to recreate it on the fly each time I want to work on it.

I think this two prong approach is the key to dealing with resistance. I think in this case, there's resistance because of a lack of clarity and resistance because of a sense of tedium. By using this two pronged approach driven by intuition, you drive down in granularity as far as you need to gain enough clarity and concreteness to eliminate resistance, but you allow your feelings and intuition to stop you before you start going so far down the granularity chain that you end up reaching a point of mental tedium.

This balancing of tedium and clarity is very dynamic and flexible in Mark F's systems. As long as you are willing to cultivate the habit of introspecting on your feelings and intuition about tasks, you should be able to continue to ride that wave. Basically, that means that I don't feel that I need to over-specify my tasks, but as I start to feel more stuck on a task, I can let myself clarify and get into more detail to ease the pressure on my mind. This avoids the other source of overhead, which is how much organizational work you need to put into your external time management system. Using an intuitive approach like Mark's means that you can potentially be more efficient in your use of external as well as internal resources, but it does take a little more training since you don't have an externalized resource to rely on to decide when to do break something down or whether or not you are doing it right.
October 3, 2021 at 2:19 | Registered CommenterAaron Hsu
Belacqua:

I've only got a few moments before going out for the day, but I'd like to reply to some of your points before I go. I'll get round to answering the other posts if they need answering when I get back this evening.

<< Most recently, I've added timestamps beside each task to indicate the starting time: e.g. "9:34 email." This has been in an effort to see where I'm wasting time and to speed up my pace of work. I took the suggestion from Mark's first book, "Get Everything Done." >>

Entering the time is not essential and adds a bit to the load, but it does as you say give you an indication of where you are wasting time. Another thing I suggest in GED is that you also enter any interruptions you get by indenting them and putting the time in. This is only for when you need it for observational purposes.

<< What I've noticed is that I tend to slow down and my attention starts to wander when the tasks are entered at a "high" level (or with a low degree of granularity): in short, when I enter big tasks rather than little tasks. >>

Yes, this is true. I personally only enter tasks at a high level when I intend to break them down further (e,g. identify next actions) or when I have an established route through them (e.g. Read War and Peace means read the next chapter or for the next 20 minutes)

<< entering tasks at a very fine level of granularity will likely cause resistance to build against the system.>>

It all depends on the nature of the task, time available, etc. For instance my task here is normally "Comments" which is short for "Read and answer as appropriate all new comments." But this morning my task is "Answer Belequa's Comment".

<< "read client X letter Sept. 3" would be better than simply "client X letter Sept. 3." It's less vague; it tells you what to do. >>

Yes, I've always suggested that you should put in a verb with any new task - unless as I said above there is an established route through it in your mind. So you'll note that my task above is normally "Comments" without a verb, but today because I'm deviating from the norm, it's "Answer B's Comment" with a verb.

In other words the key is "Do I have an established habit or routine for dealing with this?"

<< obviously one wouldn't want to take this to absurd extents (e.g. writing "tie shoelaces" as a task). >>

The question that needs to be answered is "Why is it obvious?" because this will give the answer to what level to pose the task. The reason it is obvious is that you have put your shoes on thousands of times before and you don't have to think about the fact that the shoelaces need tying. Your task may be "Get Dressed" and you know perfectly well how to get dressed, so you don't need "Put on shoes" either. In fact you probably don't need the task "Get Dressed" unless you are working from home and your significant other doesn't like seeing you mooching around in PJs. If you are working in an office across town then "Get Dressed" is unnecessary because it's just part of your everyday routine.

<< Typing tasks rather than writing them by hand could prevent hand cramping, but it's still a significant undertaking to note down everything. >>

Hand cramping in my experience is usually caused by your writing instrument being too thin or thick. Worth experimenting if you haven't done so already.
October 3, 2021 at 10:12 | Registered CommenterMark Forster
Thank you everyone for your replies. You have given me a lot to think about! I'm still working through this problem.

There seems to be some congruence between what Aaron and Mark are suggesting:

Aaron:

<< there's resistance because of a lack of clarity and resistance because of a sense of tedium. By using this two pronged approach driven by intuition, you drive down in granularity as far as you need to gain enough clarity and concreteness to eliminate resistance, but you allow your feelings and intuition to stop you before you start going so far down the granularity chain that you end up reaching a point of mental tedium. >>

Mark:

<< I personally only enter tasks at a high level when I intend to break them down further (e,g. identify next actions) or when I have an established route through them (e.g. Read War and Peace means read the next chapter or for the next 20 minutes>>

What both of you say makes sense to me. But what was disconcerting about my recent time tracking experiment is that *even when actions are routine* and could be entered as a big task, I seem to work faster when I enter small (granular) tasks. So (to use Mark's example), I seem to work faster when the task is "read War and Peace chapter 34" rather than "War and Peace" even though it would be easy to know that "War and Peace" means read the next chapter (and I have a bookmark). The efficiency gain from added granularity may be more dramatic as tasks get more complicated: e.g., reading components of client X's file may be more complicated than reading the next chapter of War and Peace, and researching an unfamiliar topic might be more complicated than reading client X's file. But even with routine tasks, I seem to suffer from concentration and efficiency problems.

Perhaps the advantage of small tasks (granularity) is somewhat akin to a timer; it interrupts you and breaks things down into bite-sized morsels. (On that note, I still need to do a full trial of Mark's timer suggestion.)

I say that this discovery was "disconcerting"--rather than merely positive--because of the problem indicated in my original post: it doesn't seem feasible to write (or even type) every little task component. And who would want to do that if they can possibly avoid it? It's as if I'm well-suited to David Parker's write-every-action approach (described in my original post) but I don't want to do it. For me (at least right now), resistance to writing a ton of little tasks is palpable.

Also, I wonder if I've been doing things wrong, since over the years with Mark's long-list systems, I've tended to enter many tasks as big tasks rather than breaking them down (on the plus side, this does keep the list shorter). I made major efficiency gains with Mark's systems but, of course, on some level, I've still faced productivity problems.

At the moment, I'm more inclined to use no-list (or even no list at all). But I anticipate it may take some time for me to achieve concentration and efficiency while avoiding resistance to the very system or framework that enables that concentration/efficiency... Incidentally, I'd say that one of the greatest things about many of Mark's systems is that you are able to work without resistance building up against the system itself. Resistance to your chosen system can be just as insidious as resistance to your work, because it can lead you to abandon that system.
October 3, 2021 at 17:12 | Registered CommenterBelacqua
Belacqua,

If you have the courage to begin a large task without a clear bite-sized "next action" in mind, you may find that it's not that hard to do something useful, and then you will know what the next action is to enter at the end of the list, to keep the ball rolling.

Remember that you can just set a one-minute timer and spend that one minute thinking about the next step to take. Or simply "open the folder" if you have project material that is pertinent.

As an example, I have completely fallen down on my Inbox-Zero commitment regarding my personal email. (I do keep up with work email.) I have two personal accounts: Apple Mail and Google Gmail. There are about 12k messages in the former Inbox, and about 2k in the latter. Last night, I decided to take action on "zero personal Inboxes" and spent a few minutes deleting from the Gmail Inbox. Since it's the smaller chunk, I re-entered the task as "zero Gmail Inbox." Because my (long-neglected) routine for Inbox-Zero also includes organizing archived messages into offline searchable mbox files, and then backing those up, there are actually finer-grain subtasks involved. So my next task-reentry may be even more specific. But I hope to get back to zeroing all my inboxes daily, and have some confidence that I can do it. Despite the occasional inconvenience, I really don't want Google and Apple to have so much of my email archives in their clouds.
October 3, 2021 at 18:12 | Registered Commenterubi
Belacqua:

<<But what was disconcerting about my recent time tracking experiment is that *even when actions are routine* and could be entered as a big task, I seem to work faster when I enter small (granular) tasks.>>

I think this goes back to individual personality and mental aptitudes. You may *think* that what you are doing is routine, but is your brain already actually wired for them to be routine? Different people's personalities will exhibit more or less tolerance of uncertainty between action and goal.

Even if you might theoretically work faster with small tasks, there's a point at which the tasks are just going to be too small, and that theoretical efficiency gain will be overwhelmed by other costs, such as resistance to writing things down. Taking a holistic optimization strategy, you'd want to let yourself find that balance point, which is likely going to be different between different types of and even specific projects or tasks. It may be that there is something about, say, "War and Peace" that just imposes more mental burden on you than "War and Peace Ch. 3" and if that burden exceeds the burden of writing down Ch. 3, then it's better to just write down the latter.

There is never a perfect solution, and you'll never actually get the balance perfectly correct, but that's okay, because we all get better at that over time, hopefully.
October 3, 2021 at 20:14 | Registered CommenterAaron Hsu
Hrm, it strikes me that one of the confusing things here might actually be the use of the term "routine." What does "routine" actually mean? In this context, routine for me does *not* mean that the set of actions is a linear sequence of actions that you can describe and map out and say, this follows that. For example, just because reading a book is serial, going from one chapter to the next, for most people, does not mean it is routine. And even though it's easy to *say* what the next chapter is, that also doesn't mean it is routine.

When I think of routine, I would define it as an action that can be triggered efficiently at the level of sub-conscious motor program in the brain. This is often commonly coined "unconscious competence" but I think there are more precise terms used in cognitive science and sports science that map that concept onto the things like the amount of myelin in the brain around neural pathways associated with the execution of a specific motor program, and so forth.

The big difference between consciously knowing how to do something and having something at the level of routine is that a routine is something that is triggered atomically and can be thought of as a single symbolic unit in the brain (somewhat literally). You simply think "I want goal X" and if achieving goal X is a routine, then you just do it, without having to think about anything else. But, for instance, a lot of people consciously know how to read, but the idea of reading is not a routine. It takes a surprising amount of active mental effort to crack open a book and begin reading. For others, reading is such a routine that is just happens without any real conscious effort. Take a large project like War and Peace, and you might have quite a lot going on emotionally and psychologically even though you "know" the next step. The difference is whether you can trigger a motor program to automatically read War and Peace without significant conscious effort into the planning activity of executing that motor program.

Thus, for me at least, routine as a concept is not about the structure of the execution plan needed to do the task, but where that execution plan lives, the unconscious or conscious mind.
October 3, 2021 at 20:24 | Registered CommenterAaron Hsu
Aaron Hsu and Belacqua:

<< Take a large project like War and Peace, and you might have quite a lot going on emotionally and psychologically even though you "know" the next step. >>

There is another method of writing a task, which I didn't mention because I was writing in haste before going out for the day. It's especially effective with high-resistance tasks.

The method is to write the very first action of the task with the understanding that you can - but don't have to - go on to do more.

Some examples:

"Open War & Peace at bookmark"
"Get out Tax File"
"Look up [angry client]'s phone number"

This depends on the fact that, if you open a book at the book mark, the natural next action is to continue reading. If you get out your Tax File, the natural next action is to do some work on your tax return. If you look up someone's phone number, the natural next action is to dial the number.

As I've said before, there is no standard way of writing a task. It needs to be appropriate for each task. And just one of the key factors is how much resistance you feel towards the task.
October 3, 2021 at 20:54 | Registered CommenterMark Forster
Mark Forster:

<< There is another method of writing a task, which I didn't mention because I was writing in haste before going out for the day. It's especially effective with high-resistance tasks.

The method is to write the very first action of the task with the understanding that you can - but don't have to - go on to do more. >>

Oh, right, comparable to the "I'm not going to do X, I'll just get the file out" approach from Do It Tomorrow (I think). I actually forgot about that. Good to have this as another option in one's toolkit.

-- Again, thank you everyone for the thought-provoking discussion. Hopefully, springing off of what has been said here (and perhaps employing other systems--a timer?), I will make some headway on the efficiency/concentration problems.
October 3, 2021 at 21:17 | Registered CommenterBelacqua
Aaron:

I normally lose focus before finishing your mini-essays, but that was a good one!
October 4, 2021 at 4:17 | Unregistered CommenterVirix
Postscript:

It occurred to me belatedly that if I want to continue with the Simplest Form of No-List, that system seems uniquely well-suited to the use of abbreviation/shorthand. This is because you are merely writing the next thing you are going to do before doing it. The primary aim (as far as I can tell) is to concentrate your mind on what you are doing, not to enable the later review of tasks (as in any system with standing out). There is only one active task on your list. At any given moment, it's a) the task you're about to do or b) the task you're currently doing. So you don't need to write the task in full unless it's helpful to do so (or you want the added benefit of reviewing the whole list at the end of the day). Abbreviation shouldn't be confusing when you're working "in the moment." Abbreviation also might allow you to write the task very specifically. For example, I might write "r mf lt th" as a task, meaning "reply to Mark Forster on the level of tasks thread." This allows for a high degree of precision (if needed) and should lessen any resistance (or hand cramping) stemming from writing things out in full.

Of course, this extent of abbreviation would never be possible in long-list where task clarity is paramount (otherwise, days later, you might not understand what you wrote). And even in a no-list system like 5/2 heavy abbreviation could get one in trouble fast.

Anyway, this is just an untested idea. No clue if it will be part of a long-term solution to my problems with lack of concentration and working too slowly. But I thought it might be worth sharing in case it helps anyone.
October 5, 2021 at 0:09 | Registered CommenterBelacqua
Belacqua:

Do you mind if I probe a little deeper into this issue? It seems that something interesting is going on, but I'm not sure what.

You said originally that you're struggling both with a lack of concentration, which I take to mean that your mind is wandering off to do other things, and also a sense that you are working too slowly on tasks when they are at a high level but if you write them at a low level you feel a lot of resistance to the act of writing the tasks down?

When you talk about resistance, can you describe that feeling in a little more detail? What is happening when you write it down, and can you give me an example of a task that is taking too long as the high level but that you are resisting writing down in more concrete steps?
October 5, 2021 at 6:35 | Registered CommenterAaron Hsu
Sure, Aaron, happy to reply. But keep in mind that any self-diagnosis was only based on a brief time-tracking experiment, so I can't profess to have figured things out myself. I may be confused about my own productivity problems.

One thing that seems clear is that I work too slowly. This has been a problem for years. The three numbered examples on this thread are typical of this problem (and based on my own experiences): ( http://markforster.squarespace.com/forum/post/2785841 ).

As for your question about high-level tasks causing slowness vs. low-level tasks causing resistance:

1. By resistance, here, most often, I mean resistance to using a system in general. That resistance can increase when more detail (and more task entries) are demanded by any given system. With the Simplest Form of No-List, resistance might manifest in me saying to myself: "Am I really going to write out every major action I'm going to do for the rest of my life? Ugh!" Then I might take a few days off and use no list at all. (I have also experienced this feeling with long-list. I stopped Simple Scanning after using it for over a year straight for the same reason. I was getting tired of writing most major actions in my life on a list.) Of course, this kind of resistance to a system can come and go. After a break, one may well go back to one's list with enthusiasm. I also want to stress that Mark's systems are (by far) more fun to use and produce less resistance than anything else I've tried. This might be their greatest achievement for me. The above is meant as a reflection on me, not as a criticism of Mark's systems (which are amazing). But, I suppose, it's only natural to be attracted to a free and easy approach (like using no list at all)--who wouldn't like that so long as it produced good results? This may be true even for those of us on this site--who probably enjoy using "systems" more than the average person.

So, yes, I mostly mean resistance at this general, system level, though this could have more specific manifestations (e.g. your hand is cramping when writing and you think to yourself: "Why bother with a list?").

2. I take too long to finish even "simple" tasks (e.g. a short email). But it seems to be worse with bigger, high-level tasks. I imagine that the latter is a common problem. Surely, many of us have had a lot of time to do a single big task like "write draft of report" and yet have made little progress.

An example from my work would be something like "review client X file" which is already a high-level task, but which back when used long-list I might have abbreviated even further to "client X file" or even "client X." Even if I have a very good idea of what (or how much) in the file I need to review, work can proceed slowly and I might spent an hour reading pdfs without feeling like I have a good grasp. Then I might feel frustrated at my time usage. Another (related) example would be "research issue Y for client X." This is the sort of task that can benefit from being broken down into tiny steps (e.g. specific search engine queries); this can increase focus. And yet, sometimes one feels drawn to a looser approach--say, just writing "client X research" as your task and going off to do your research. After all you've done this kind of thing many times before. It may be intellectually taxing but it's not like you *need* a list to do it. You could use a less prescriptive approach like Mark Forster's "Dreams" and still get the job done). What is the best way to do things, I don't know. All I know is that when I do enter a big task like "client x research," often the result is that I spend a lot of time and I don't feel I've achieved enough results to show for it. The same was true with my student work (where I would have big tasks like writing an essay which don't always lend themselves to being broken down further). In short, I wish I could work faster. I feel like some colleagues of mine can do their work in a fraction of the time. Mark's suggestion of a timer seems promising, so I'm going to try it. But I'm sure there are many valid approaches to this issue.
October 5, 2021 at 17:58 | Unregistered CommenterBelacqua
Belacqua:

<< For example, I might write "r mf lt th" as a task, meaning "reply to Mark Forster on the level of tasks thread." >>

My worry about this would be that the idea of writing a task down and then doing it immediately is to crystallize the idea of the task in your mind. It's like it's giving yourself an order.

I doubt if a Drill Sergeant would get quite the same effect from shouting "st stl n wi tht gn f yr fs" as he would from "Stand still and wipe that grin off your face!"
October 5, 2021 at 18:19 | Registered CommenterMark Forster
P.S. Aaron:

I once worked a fairly straightforward, mostly physical job (shelf stocking) and was able to work very quickly. If only office work (or deep work) were the same.
October 5, 2021 at 19:11 | Registered CommenterBelacqua
Mark Forster:

<< My worry about this would be that the idea of writing a task down and then doing it immediately is to crystallize the idea of the task in your mind. It's like it's giving yourself an order.

I doubt if a Drill Sergeant would get quite the same effect from shouting "st stl n wi tht gn f yr fs" as he would from "Stand still and wipe that grin off your face!" >>

Yeah, I too worry about something being lost with heavy abbreviation. The idea may turn out to be half-baked, but I thought it was worth sharing nonetheless.
October 5, 2021 at 19:21 | Registered CommenterBelacqua
Thanks for taking the time to write that out, Belacqua. I'm still not sure we're going deep enough though. I'm trying to get at what you're actually *feeling* during the times that you're working on these things. That includes both what you're feeling when you are working on a task that is going too slowly and also what you're feeling before you take action on a task but as you are writing a task down or thinking about taking action on it. So, not what you have resistance about, but *how* you have resistance; what is the emotion and psychological state you are experiencing when you encounter this resistance (both the resistance of writing/doing tasks and the "slowing down" resistance to completing a task efficiently)? In your above example, I'd like to unpack that idea of "Ugh." What is this "Ugh?" What is happening to your mind internally during these periods?

Also, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm inferring a sense of resignation or boredom. When you talk about these tasks, it's almost as though there's no energy behind your words. As if these things you are doing are sterile and devoid of any human connection or meaning. I am sensing a lot of negative energy around the tasks, like "research issue for client." That task could have been written as, "Help client overcome issue, why is X happening?" The energy is different there.

Maybe I'm projecting here, but you may be intellectually aware of what to do for a given issue, but I don't get the sense that you're really connected to the "why" of it. It also feels like maybe it's not really clear to you sometimes what constitutes "done" for a task. And also, I get the sense that maybe the use of a system is almost a means for you to seek some sort of "novelty" or "excitement" or "purpose" in your work that may not be stimulating you enough right now. That is, when a system is fresh, it can pull you forward and you can feel like you're making progress because of how you're engaging with this fresh new system, and the novelty and sense of progress comes with an increase in your competency with the system. The system is providing you with a sense of growth. But once you master that system (however long that takes), it ceases to provide that, and if the rest of your life doesn't have that in ample supply, it can seem easiest to chase a new system to continue the growth, instead of critically evaluating your work for stagnation.

I have *no* idea whether any of that is accurate or not. It's just how it feels to me, so I'm hoping you'll correct me where I'm wrong here so I can get a better picture. I still think that the underlying feelings will be the most insightful aspects of this, rather than the surface level question of the system you're using.

For another perspective on efficiency of engaging with mental office work and motivation, here's a series of videos from Dr. K on Youtube. I think a lot of this stuff is highly compatible with what Mark Forster has talked about, but it dives a little deeper into the neurological and psychological mechanisms.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlk0NAA3I48
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfL0H9IiU9s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QWIxElEnc8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpINkIx3saI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unUA2ovzchY
October 7, 2021 at 8:15 | Unregistered CommenterAaron Hsu
Belacqua:

<< I once worked a fairly straightforward, mostly physical job (shelf stocking) and was able to work very quickly. If only office work (or deep work) were the same. >>

The reason you were able to work quickly was because you had an established routine. It's of course much more difficult to establish routines in office work because the work is much more varied. Nevertheless, just as you used the same routine to put different things on different shelves, if you work consistently in an office you will find efficient routines start to form. The important thing is to work consistently, otherwise you will always be starting from square one.
October 7, 2021 at 8:16 | Registered CommenterMark Forster
Hi Aaron,

I don’t think I’ve analyzed my feelings much in this context. I’ll try to respond to your queries (your words are in quotation marks):

<< I'm trying to get at what you're actually *feeling* during the times that you're working on these things. That includes both what you're feeling when you are working on a task that is going too slowly and also what you're feeling before you take action on a task but as you are writing a task down or thinking about taking action on it. >>

1. Feelings when working on a task going too slowly:
At times, I’m happily in the zone, and it’s only afterward I realize (if I realize at all) that I have taken too long. Or it’s frustration while working, knowing that I am progressing too slowly. And then sometimes resignation because I don’t seem to have a solution. Resignation might also lead me to jettison using a system. Of course, one’s feelings may not be rational.

Because of the above, I tend to feel overwhelmed even by comparatively light workloads. Perhaps I would work more efficiently if I had greater external pressure (tighter deadlines, less freedom, a harsh boss, etc.)--but then the stress might be crushing.

2. Feelings before I take action on a task:
Not sure if there is anything of note here. I’m not immune to resistance and procrastination, but usually, I can get started on tasks; it’s the speed I want to improve. Resistance to writing things down is connected to what I said above about taking a break from systems. (That and I do like the idea of using no list at all. In this sense, my attraction to Mark's list systems is the exception, not the rule.)

<< Also, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm inferring a sense of resignation or boredom. When you talk about these tasks, it's almost as though there's no energy behind your words. As if these things you are doing are sterile and devoid of any human connection or meaning. I am sensing a lot of negative energy around the tasks, like "research issue for client." >>

I don't love my work, but I wouldn't say it's sterile or devoid of meaning. Take the client example: I genuinely want to solve her issue and I feel a real connection to/responsibility for the client. But I also don’t want to spend 20 hours doing something if it can/should be done in 5 hours. That can just lead to frustration, overwhelm, etc. On the other hand, I’m almost never bored. Even banal tasks have a certain intensity for me.

<< And also, I get the sense that maybe the use of a system is almost a means for you to seek some sort of "novelty" or "excitement" or "purpose" in your work that may not be stimulating you enough right now. >>

One thing that has drawn me to Mark’s systems over the years is their simple, concrete, and unusually comprehensive approach. A long-list or no-list system can be used for almost everything, throughout one’s waking hours if desired. And even the systems that don’t fit these labels (e.g. “Dreams”) have a distinctly “complete” feel to them. They give you a framework for your routine and for your thinking. That's appealing--and remarkable, I think.

<< It also feels like maybe it's not really clear to you sometimes what constitutes "done" for a task. >>

Yeah, I think this is a big issue. Of course, “limits” is a key word in the Forster lexicon (even if, arguably, some of the long-list systems moved away from this emphasis).

I think part of my problem (hardly unique) is that large proportion of my work consists of tasks that are difficult to break down or can lend themselves to widely disparate durations. So, to take a past example, when I got to the point of writing an essay (draft 1, draft 2, etc.), it became tough to break the task down further, and one could spend 5 hours or 50 hours completing it. Or consider studying a textbook for an exam 4 months away... Or take “research issue for the client”: the issue might be tricky, with a lot of secondary and primary sources addressing it. Again, one could spend a few hours or an obscene amount of time coming up with a report (even if the assignment itself is clear). When the task is tough to break down, it seems easier to fall prey to Parkinson’s law (“work expands so as to fill the time available for its completion.”). And even when one can break the task down (e.g. writing dozens of search queries and article titles on a long-list), one might still have a problem with limits. I speculate that if I didn't do so much fuzzy "knowledge work"--if I did something more granular (e.g. admin support job)--I could use Mark's systems to even greater effect. This is not intended as a criticism of Mark's systems. Mark's systems and insights have helped me immensely. I'm just speculating that this application of them might have a higher margin of user error. Users like me can slow down with the fuzzier tasks, especially when there aren't enough external constraints. (Cf. the additional--numbered--examples I gave here: http://markforster.squarespace.com/forum/post/2785841 ). Contrast my experience stocking shelves: tasks and limits were so definite, concrete! (“There are 3 pallets of boxes left, the store closes in 6 hours.” Lightning-quick work follows…)

Based on everything I’ve said, Mark’s suggestion of a timer seems apt. I have mixed feelings about compartmentalizing my work/life that way, but that is the next thing I plan to try.

Anyway, thank you for your interest. I think you probed deeper than I wanted to go! And this has become a more self-centered thread than I would have liked. My apologies for that. But I imagine that these problems are fairly common. I hope my sharing brings some benefit to others.
October 8, 2021 at 16:03 | Registered CommenterBelacqua
P.S. If this adds any clarity to what I was saying about “limits” in the previous post:

In the absence of sufficient external constraints, even a simple task might take one too long to do (e.g. taking 30 minutes to write a “5-minute email”). Of course, psychology can play a role here (lack of motivation, perfectionism, preoccupation with details...). But Mark’s systems should help a lot with this problem: most of the systems give you sense of your total workload, they encourage processing routines, they are fun to use, etc.

Unsurprisingly, tasks which are bigger, more vague, intellectually draining, hard to break down, etc. can cause even more serious problems with slowness. Processing speed can slow to a crawl. Again, Mark’s systems can help: they allow you to clarify and subdivide, they provide a framework for your thinking, and so on. But I think a lot more can go wrong with these “knowledge work”-type tasks (perhaps especially for individuals with the aforementioned personality traits), and Mark’s systems don’t always provide a quick fix. It wouldn’t be reasonable to expect that! This seems to be a challenging area of time management where the risk of inefficiency is real.

Anyway, I do remain hopeful that some system or hybrid approach (or the ramping up of external demands in the next few years of my career) will set me on the path of efficiency and focus. I’ve been in a bit of a rut lately (which has probably come through in my more frequent posts and in the confusions they may contain). But I’m going to work to turn things around.
October 9, 2021 at 2:05 | Registered CommenterBelacqua
Belacqua:

Thanks for sharing! I think a few things are making more sense. I certainly don't have the answers, but based on what you're saying, I'm personally drawn to what looks to me like an underdeveloped skill of operationalization and the awareness of "status" when it comes to knowledge work. It sounds like you've been trained at some point in your past to feel a sense of accomplishment around concrete task completion, but you perhaps haven't had as much practice in connecting a sense of completion and achievement to the more nebulous sort of knowledge work you are doing right now. That can make *everything* slow down because it can be very hard to tell if you are going in the right direction, and thus, each step you take can take longer than it would if you were just following the path that was laid out ahead of time.

Here's a few things that I can think of that might help this:

1. Let yourself be slow. Seriously. I think expecting yourself to have the efficiency you did with the sort of "menial" work you had before is expecting more than anybody can reasonably expect of themselves. Knowledge work is inherently slower, especially any *valuable* knowledge work. Knowledge work that is already routine isn't very valuable knowledge work. What makes knowledge work valuable is that it is delivering new knowledge of some kind, which ideally shouldn't be already known knowledge. The more routine knowledge work becomes, the less valuable it is and the more it is just inefficient automation. So, of course, you shouldn't expect efficiency like you had before. If you're doing good work, then the work should be inherently more challenging and/or difficult.

Along with this, knowledge work of any good sort involves mapping out into unstructured and unknown areas, which means you won't have a plan, and you have to create it. You shouldn't expect yourself to be as fast as both developing a plan and executing that plan as when all you have is a predefined plan someone else gives you to execute.

In fact, knowledge work usually involves three things: 1. Identifying what the actual end goal looks like. 2. Mapping some idea of how to get there (usually incrementally while executing). 3. Executing the mapping that you have so far. And importantly, you may need to cycle through all three of these stages repeatedly before you are done, revising all of them. That's a lot more work than just stacking shelves.

People can get really good at this, but it can be hard to see how much skill is involved in getting good at this kind of stuff, so you should let yourself be slower than you might think you ought to be, that might really be okay. You're only going to slow yourself down if you keep worrying about how slow you are going.

2. A key skill to develop is operationalization. That is, the skill of taking an end goal and identifying multiple layers of sub-goals that eventually bottom out into concrete actionable tasks. This is *not* an easy skill that many people have. It takes time and effort to develop that skill. And moreover, a lot of people don't take a very structured approach to honing this skill, so they can be working in knowledge work for a while without ever really making much progress in this skill.

I think one of the things that you might be suffering from is that when you are forced to explicitly operationalize, you are confronted with the challenging aspects of a problem. There are all sorts of unknowns there that you need to resolve, especially if you are trying to actually write something out. You can often fool yourself into thinking that you have a much better map in your head than you really do if you aren't forced to write things down.

I think some of the frustration you might encounter here is that if you think something should be relatively easy, but you've not developed a truly coherent idea of what it means to complete the task that you have, when you ask yourself to write things down more concretely, your mind is saying, "This is a trivial thing, I already know how to do this," but your unconscious mind might be at odds with that, saying, "We really *don't* know how to do this," and you might find encounter resistance at that point, both in terms of writing things down and also figuring out whether you've actually written down the right things or not.

Thus, the points of resistance you encounter to operationalizing your work might be great focal points for you to explore, rather than to remove from your work. Those points of resistance could be highlighting exactly the areas you want to think about or that you're weaker in than you would like to think, and playing in that space might give you the opportunity to level up in those areas.

3. In addition to operationalization, I think one of the more valuable things you might do with these tasks is to take the time to ask yourself why you're doing this, why it matters, and what it would actually look like to deliver a minimal valuable solution. Get the idea in your head what the resolution would ideally look like, and then actually write it out. Have a true idea of what "done" looks like to you. If you're precise about this, and write it out (I don't think you can be concrete and precise here at this point without writing it down until you have *much* more practice), then your mind will be *much* better equipped to figure out the most efficient path forward, as well as to hit you with "stop points" that trigger anxiety around unknowns that you need to home in on and solve. It can lead you to the right sort of questioning.

I think with both #2 and #3 you might encounter resistance to this idea because you might say, "Do I really need to do this?" as well as, "This is a waste of time." But I think that very often, both of these things are lies that our minds tell us to try to leave us in the dark. It's a defense mechanism. If we don't have to write things out and if we don't have to operationalize and define what success looks like, then we aren't forced to confront the parts of the problem or space that we don't know, can't answer, or that might present a significant problem to us. If we avoid concretizing or writing things out, then we can mentally "brush over" those things in our head without feeling too bad. As long as the "dangers are kept in the mists" then we might feel better than if we revealed them to ourselves.

At least, I find that this is very often the root cause of people's reluctance to write things out, especially around knowledge work. If it were routine, then they could write a checklist out once and then refer to it repeatedly. If it's knowledge work, then it requires new paths every time you work through the tasks. I have met many people who implicitly avoid writing things out because they don't want to confront what would happen if they did write things out, such as having to say, "I don't know...."

I think once you get really, really good at writing this stuff out, you'll have internalized the process enough that you "write things out" in your head, and this enables you to avoid needing to write things down on paper. However, that can take a very long time to get good at.

An extreme example of this is in my field of Computer Science, where many people come into this degree and are used to writing papers that aren't clear on an idea. Then, they are asked to write software code on a topic, and they *think* they understand it, and they can even write a paper that they think explains what is going on, but when they are asked to *actually* write out the program code in a way that mechanically tests whether they have understood the concept or not, their code doesn't work, and they struggle to write code that does work. This is an extreme example of thinking you understand the details when you really don't. Not every field requires that level of rigor, but I think the principle tends to stand up regardless of your domain.

Only the *really really really* good programmers are able to write out a piece of code from start to finish without erasing and without making any corrections to their algorithms. Those people are so rare that stories of such feats are a matter of lore and legend in the field. And even those people can only do that with some problems and some domains within programming.

4. I think timing might be a good thing to try, like Mark has mentioned. Another thing you can do is to classify tasks into how "big" you think they are, and then track your average time to completion for each class of task. Then you can start playing with different techniques and see which ones drive down this time from start to finish.
October 9, 2021 at 3:01 | Registered CommenterAaron Hsu
Belacqua:

In your earlier comment you wrote:

>> What I've noticed is that I tend to slow down and my attention starts to wander when the tasks are entered at a "high" level (or with a low degree of granularity)…

This wandering of the mind is actually a form of "standing out" in such that the mind is starting to work on that task. The wandering is an automatic response of the mind, it is searching for a path to integrate the task in its already establishe structure.

While it may seem in the forefront of your head that you are "wandering off" that task, in fact in the back of your mind it is frantically searching for integration.

It hasn't learned a path yet, since this is new territory, much like Aaron Hsu suggests. Writing things down here is indeed an excellent way to help your mind to arrive at solutions.

If you notice that your mind started to wander, realize that you are already working on that task internally. Write something down to externalize the progress as minimal as that may be.

The minimum you will be able to do afterwards is to cross out that task on the Long List and re-enter it with a new formulation that indicated the progress you have made.

Thinking is working and everything gets created in thought first.

In general, that one's mind wanders is not a sign that the Long List doesn't work for you or that you are incapable to work the list. To the contrary, it means you are engaged with the contents of the list. You just have to manifest that.
October 9, 2021 at 9:18 | Unregistered CommenterChristopher
My approach when I get wandery on a high level task is to put to paper my thoughts, specifically lower level details that lead to achieving the task. One such detail becomes my new starting point. These details aren't all in my master list. Maybe one tiny step sometimes. But if I choose a high level task, I go look at the details and that's my jumping point for further thought and action.
October 10, 2021 at 14:46 | Registered CommenterAlan Baljeu
Thanks for hearing me out, everyone. And thank you for your insights!

I look forward to testing some (new and old) systems/approaches to see how they respond to these issues.
October 11, 2021 at 18:46 | Registered CommenterBelacqua
David Allen, in his book, "Making It All Work", on Appendix ii:

"If your project needs more clarity, raise the level of your focus. If your project needs more to be happening, lower the level of your focus."
October 11, 2021 at 19:30 | Unregistered CommenterMark H.
David Allen is referring to the levels on his Natural Planning Model. Google it and there will be many descriptions.
October 11, 2021 at 19:38 | Unregistered CommenterMark H.