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Discussion Forum > Long-range goals

Does anyone have success in planning long-range goals? Lifetime, 5-year, year, quarter, month, week? How to incorporate it with a Mark Forster method?
October 31, 2021 at 19:14 | Unregistered CommenterMark H.
Yes - I have something I think is very effective. Basically it is a spreadsheet with a list of recurring tasks/projects I look at daily (as I work with spreadsheets quite a lot). Currently about 35 work items and 20 personal items on there. I have set a formula so automatically highlights in red when it needs action. I simply update the date on which I last took action and the how many days I would like to look at it again and when that day comes it is in red.
It is no more than a diary system, but it is easy to pick out things to do and then add to the to do list. I guess that will work with any of Mark's systems.
November 1, 2021 at 12:31 | Unregistered CommenterMr Done
Personally, I've found it helpful to have long range vision like goals that help to drive direction and allow me to answer the question of, "Should I commit my time to this thing?" However, outside of that, I've not found it helpful to have many if any intermediate goals, except maybe one or two concrete objectives that I want to shoot for on a regular basis. My experience suggests that these intermediate goals change so often that it's not worth having them down too concretely.

So, short term and very long term goals seem to be the ideal. Put another way, I'm a "Plan less" sort of person. Instead, I think what seems to be better is ensuring that you have some way of consistently taking action on an area or commitment that you want to progress on. That is, you start with a "Where is the general direction I want to go?" and then ask, "What are the immediate actionable things I should do every day/week that will get me moving in that direction?" Another way of asking that would be, "What is the next step in that direction?"

This incorporates into a Mark Forster style in a few ways. It's obviously quite compatible with Little and Often and the task focused nature of many of his systems. You simply put the next step into your list and start working it, raising or lowering the resolution as necessary to make it useful. As you continue doing that work, you just ask yourself periodically whether you want to change direction or not? That's easily accomplished as a part of weeding/dismissed items review in Mark's systems.

The important thing here is staying action focused rather than "plan focused".

Finally, there's a little and often overlooked (*snicker*, see what I did there?) part of Mark's advice that I think is critical for some people. Specifically, if you are in a creative role where it's your job to spend a lot of time working on a deep problem (such as writing a book, solving math problems, architectural level systems design, art, &c.), Mark has mentioned before that often times such things are better done "off list" at a specific, protected time and space, so that you have an area of deep focus. Thus, rather than writing that book by waiting for it to trigger for you on your task list, you would just work towards building a habit where there is a time in your day where the only thing you do is that thing, even if, for instance, you might end up doing nothing as an alternative to working on that thing.

I think this is sometimes the key habit that has to be incorporated to tackle some bigger and more aspirational aspects of our lives. I think some people can also do this well by putting it into their lists, but it is important not to limit yourself to *only* looking at that option for some things. Sometimes, things are better worked by giving them a special time and place.

As an example of myself, I have been so aggressive at pruning my life and commitments that I have a tiny list of "todos" that are essentially more or less irrelevant. I can do them whenever I feel like and they don't really matter that much. Instead, I have a very large "One Thing" that drives my commitments and intentions. If I put this on my list, it would be pretty much the only thing I should work on most of the day (or at least, a large portion of my work day). So it's not even worth putting on the list where I might be tempted to resist it.

Instead, I have a morning routine that says, do X, then Y, then Z, and then this One Thing. I am not supposed to let myself do anything else but those things until the One Thing is done being worked on for the day. I think this is likely more effective than trying to wait until I feel like doing the one thing.

Now, I'm not perfect at this, but because I know that I'm not supposed to do these other things before I start on that one thing, I can let myself sit with the feelings when I find myself trying to veer off that habit chain, and spend some time processing why it's happening, which raises my awareness and makes it easier for me to do work.
November 3, 2021 at 22:09 | Registered CommenterAaron Hsu
Here is an example. I haven't read any of these books, but you can preview them. If you do a Google search, there are plenty of websites advising aligning your day, week, month, year , 5-year goals with your lifetime goals. I haven't had much success with this, but am willing to reconsider it.
November 4, 2021 at 1:38 | Unregistered CommenterMark H.
I am not able to post the google link. There are books by an author named Bastion Bordeaux. If you type this in google, the books will come up.

inauthor:"Bastion Bordeaux"
November 4, 2021 at 1:42 | Unregistered CommenterMark H.
The concept is that you first plan your lifetime goals, then set your 5 year goals to meet the lifetime goals, then set your 1-year goals to meet your 5 -year goals, then set your month goals to meet year goals, and then the week, and then the day, so that all of the time period goals are aligned with your lifetime goals.
I have seen several time management books that advocate this. The one that comes to mind is (I think ) Time Power.
I have been working a long contiguous long list for a month now, and there is good flow, however, I notice some of the items that remain are higher goals, projects. I could write a next step for these. So these longer period goals could be developed organically. However, is there a place for a top down approach as well, so that you look at the big picture and make sure that no essential item or area of focus is neglected? It would seem that putting all this on a long list would bog it down. Where would these plans go? Does Mark Forster address this anywhere?
November 4, 2021 at 1:52 | Unregistered CommenterMark H.
I have tried to do this, align the goals, some years ago. However, although I did achieve a few goals, most of them were not accomplished. Such planning is satisfying to those who like to analyze and synthesize, and engage in reason and imagination. But it has be translated into reality.
On an organizational level, such planning may be necessary. But does it work on a personal level? It seems sometimes it is necessary, for example if you are applying for college, you need to meet certain deadlines and prepare months in advance.
November 4, 2021 at 2:01 | Unregistered CommenterMark H.
How about planning for one's retirement, or preparing for one's death? Or planning one's finances?
These are multi-step, complicated, and maybe one is not looking forward to doing.
Perhaps as Aaron has suggested, it would be best to set aside a time so one is not distracted and can concentrate.
It seems like the concept itself is a good one, and applied to one thing at a time, gradually adding as you master life might work. However, these books advocate planning one's whole life in all the areas at once, and implementing at the same time. This seems like too much all at once.
November 4, 2021 at 2:56 | Unregistered CommenterMark H.
I think planning has been shown to give you a sense of control, but I think in the end that sense of control isn't worth the cost of planning, as I mentioned in more detail above. It's extremely popular to talk about lots of goal oriented planning, but when it comes down to it, I don't think the intermediate level goals matter that much. What matters is where you want to go, and how you plan to take action regularly to get there.

All goals inevitably come back to your daily allotment of time. How are you going to spend that time each day? Assuming you already know what your goals are, then it's simply determining if you can fit that into the time that you have.

If you have some project that you think you should care more about doing than is showing up on your list, then simply rewriting the task in a manner that will trigger more action (usually being more specific and actionable) is probably the way to address that. Taking some action on a task can include clarifying what you want to do next for a task/project. If I have "Write book" on my list, maybe the first little and often thing to do is to sit with that task and think about why I'm not doing it. And then maybe I'll realize that I don't know what I want the book to be about, so then I add "Brainstorm idea for book" into my list. And that's it. If the problem with a task is that you aren't taking action on a task, then maybe the first thing to do with that project/task is to ask why it's not moving.

So, again, that's just another variation on the theme: you need a direction (goal), and then you need a next step. Everything in between is probably unnecessary and may not be of any benefit at all.

A lot of books on productivity and life management are more about making yourself feel better with your life, versus actually accomplishing anything with your life. The two are not the same thing.

Big upfront planning is rarely worth the effort.
November 4, 2021 at 5:38 | Registered CommenterAaron Hsu
Some people do have trouble knowing what it is they want. In those cases, Mark Forster's systems can help provide a more gradual and less structured approach to trying to allow those goals and desires to emerge over time through incremental, versus all at once, reflection. By putting all sorts of stuff on the list, you can see what moves and what doesn't, and then you can start to introspect on the things that aren't moving, resulting in them either being dismissed or reworked to enable forward motion. And things that are moving forward but that you don't want to move forward or think are moving forward too fast you can deal with somehow.

The thing that Mark's systems don't do, and which no system can do, is to somehow get you to move forward on things that you value but are afraid of, without having to face your fears and learn how to deal with them. The system can highlight your fear, and bring fear's manifestations to the forefront, but in the end you have to deal with it.

I think a lot of people seek out systems and productivity guidance because they are looking for something that will take away the fear and allow them to do things without the pain of dealing with that fear or having to feel that sense of chaos and lack of control that comes with doing anything new and growth oriented. They want the system to remove their fear without them having to actually deal with it.

*If* your primary problem is one of organization, and it is a lack of organization that is causing uncertainty and fear because you don't know what's going on in your life, then a system can help with that. However, once you get your life even a little bit organized to the point that you can at least see what you want to do and what your big things to move forward are, the systems can only shine a light on the fear, and they can't remove it.

And when it comes down to procrastination and why we don't take action on things, it's usually because of fear, whether little or big.
November 4, 2021 at 5:46 | Registered CommenterAaron Hsu
Aaron Hsu:

In my book "How to Make Your Dreams Come True" I deal with these questions in detail.
November 4, 2021 at 8:53 | Registered CommenterMark Forster
Re: primary problem, proposed by Aaron.

I've come to a conclusion that my difficulty is not organization per se; nor is it primarily fear, though that does play. Instead, one of my biggest obstacles is persistence, informed by ideas of ADHD. The effect is the regular feelings of boredom, distraction when attempting to stick to any particular system, particularly ones that are highly mechanical. I am directing thought to overcome this.
November 4, 2021 at 16:07 | Registered CommenterAlan Baljeu
Mark H:
<< Does anyone have success in planning long-range goals?>>

I have accomplished quite a few long-range goals. They all started as a flash of inspiration, and then simmered... on low heat, in my brain. Some I wrote down. A few found their way into this or that systems. A few things that worked for me:

a. Accountability in the form of a coach/therapist, or co-partner.
b. Announcing my goal publicly (some frown against this, but it worked for me)
c. Some action, everyday, little and often
d. Appeals to one of my emotional touchstones (see Barbara Sher: Wishcraft for more on that).

Today, I took some action on a long-term goal/idea that's been brewing for a decade. I shared an idea** with my podcast co-host. She jumped on board, and things are starting to roll.

The next couple of weeks will be key. My enthusiasm starts to wane after a few days, or when we hit our first stumbling block. Curious to see how far I can take this.

** To create a goal oriented journal and workshop to coincide with the Jewish holidays, inspired by Jewish, psychological and productivity source material.
November 4, 2021 at 20:45 | Registered Commenteravrum
Mark H.:

The problem with the "five years goals down to weekly or daily actions" is that you just end up with your todo list.

Take your college example.

You set a life-time goal of, say, forstering a management culture that is "environment first" or something els that inspires you.

Now we get down to five years and set a goal of "finished my MBA and work as such."

It's neat, isn't it?

Now you go for the one year goal and say you want to score such and such many points at uni.

Still nice.

This means for this month: being awesome at uni.

That's were the system breaks down. Regardless wether you have all those lofty goals or not, your uni schedule is the same and all the tasks that come from that are the same. It's the same list of stuff todo!

Which of your tasks at uni do support your five years goal? All of them, right?

Of course you should have inspiring goals for your life, at least that's what I think. But how does a breakdown in intermediate steps help?

I'd say it doesn't even work.

The various authors who suggest that you organize your life with these five years plans are not thinking sharply or not even working this system for themselves.
November 9, 2021 at 11:59 | Unregistered CommenterChristopher
One place where intermediate planning can help is where it's very difficult for you to identify what the immediate actions to take are that matter the most for achieving the goal. In that case, it might be necessary for you to progressively break a complex goal down into intermediate steps in order to understand what your next step is. There are a few models for doing this such as Allen's Natural Planning and others. One that I find useful is Brendon Burchard's idea of identifying the five big steps to get from where you are to where you want to go.

I like the big five steps idea because sometimes people will get caught up in thinking they need to do a bunch of things, and they'll end up doing all the little things that are tangentially related to their goal, but not the primary thing that will actually take them to their goal. As an example, some people will do a lot of work reading about writing a book, or about how to market the book or publish it or how to do this or that, when really, the first step in the five big steps might just be "write the book". I know more than one person has said that they struggled with writing a book because it didn't click with them that the first thing they really needed to do was just to sit down and write a book.

In such cases, I think it makes sense to do whatever you need to do to get clear on what action you have to take to get to the goal, or at least get closer to the end goal. After that, I'm not sure how valuable the rest of the planning work is, once you are making progress consistently.
November 9, 2021 at 15:08 | Registered CommenterAaron Hsu
Aaron Hsu:

<< the first step in the five big steps might just be "write the book" >>

Well, this is where it all falls down. The first step in getting a book published is not "write the book". If you do that you will waste a lot of work to no purpose.

Writing the book is the last step, not the first.

I speak as someone who has had four books published by the largest publisher in the United Kingdom.
November 9, 2021 at 19:55 | Registered CommenterMark Forster