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Discussion Forum > "Dreams" method and long term goals

Bringing the focus into the question of long term goals and the Dreams method. This was inspired by Mark H's comments about lingering tasks on a long list. I was also intrigued by Mark's comments about how Dreams deals with this in detail, since it probably does, but it's not clear exactly how.

Let's say instead that you were using the Dreams method. Let's also say that you have a suitably inspiring future vision (let's even say it's so good when you read it that you get chills just reading it, that's how desirable it is to you). But now let's say that you've hit a road block equivalent to the "lingering long term project" issue. Your present reality isn't progressing. In particular, there's one or more areas of your life that you absolutely see are crucial to your future. They're very tied. Maybe it's fixing up a poor marriage or maybe it's getting real work and progress done on whatever that long term project is (like writing a book). But every day you look at that vision, get inspired, and do nothing. You can feel a strong pull towards the completion of that project, but maybe you don't feel much pull to do anything, and you end up drifting or feeling somewhat depressed or conflicted about even wanting to do that task, despite how much you know it means to you.

In such a case, the problem isn't so much one of motivation as resistance and maybe whatever it is that would get you to actually *do* something at the right time of the day. Mark has pointed out that resistance can be a bigger issue than motivation.

Now, clearly there was *something* that was done in the Dreams method to help deal with this, but it isn't exactly clear what. For example, using the What's Better list to help you monitor and recognize progress seems obvious, and clearly this is something you should talk about with your future self. But...it's less clear what you might actually *ask* your present self. How exactly would you go about helping? And what sorts of things might you put on your What's Better list?

In short, given that the Dreams method is supposed to help pull you forward into this work that is lingering and not moving, how would you actually use it to do that with things that are more stuck than your average stuck thing?

One facetious thing I could imagine would be the future self saying, "You just need to push yourself harder and set a schedule and use time-blocking/AutoFocus/FVP!" Sure, at this point you have "coached" yourself into adding a new low-level system to manage your time and try to make incremental progress by pushing yourself to take little and often steps through more systematization. While that seems maybe technically within the scope of the system, it seems like it sort of undermines the whole spirit of being in Pull mode, which seems like the whole point of the three core pillars of the Dreams method.

On the other hand, just saying, "revise your vision, use a what's better list, and coach yourself" is too isolated and removed from the specific problem to be helpful. In this scenario, you're already doing those things, so the question is, if you are doing those things, how do you use those things to actually address this when you identify that things are *not* progressing in a necessary area, where not making progress in this area is a severe threat to your future vision? How does one combat such high levels of resistance or reluctance with the Dreams method without undermining the principles of PULL and "not seeing things as problems"?

I think part of what isn't clear about Mark's comments that Dreams deals in details with the questions of vision and fear and resistance is how one uses the method to address these things? The clarification of vision is straightforward enough, but it's less clear how one goes about using the method if PULL mode seems more elusive due to higher levels of resistance on big things or long standing difficult habits or fears that prevent forward progress?
November 5, 2021 at 2:35 | Registered CommenterAaron Hsu
Okay, hunting the archives, I found this relevant post:

---BEGIN QUOTE---
avrum:

<< What would have happened if you were feeling the ol' resentment and/or procrastination around order? >>

I would first make sure that the goal for "order" was compelling (see previous post). And I would be sure to put ANY improvement relating to order on the What's Better list (as I did in the book). Then I would report honestly on a daily basis the present situation, including my feelings about it. That would include "the ol' resentment and/or procrastination" if applicable. I would also keep the goal itself under revision.

You will find several occasions in the book when I say something on the lines of "I'll do it when I feel like doing it and not before". That would definitely apply here. The whole point of the methods in "Dreams" is that you don't push yourself to do things. You let them happen.
---END QUOTE---

I think that helps to clarify things a little. One thing I guess I'm wondering is whether you, Mark, would add anything to the above having had years of further experience behind you?
November 5, 2021 at 3:04 | Registered CommenterAaron Hsu
Thanks, Aaron for posting this. I've read it, not sure I understand it all. I had started reading the Dreams book for looking for more information.
November 5, 2021 at 4:07 | Unregistered CommenterMark H.
I'll also throw in this slightly contrarian viewpoint:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QWIxElEnc8

The above interpretation of motivation is sufficient to explain why the Dreams method may work, but it also provides a counterpoint as to why a task-driven system like AutoFocus and its children may also work just as well. Furthermore, it provides a somewhat radical notion (sometimes hinted at with mark's systems), that maybe to achieve things of meaning and value, you don't need the traditional frameworks of goals, sub-goals, and tasks, and that you might actually be better off simply dismissing long term goals entirely, which is kind of counter to the Dreams method, but also oddly congruent with it at the same time.
November 5, 2021 at 6:02 | Registered CommenterAaron Hsu
Aaron Hsu:

There's more than one way to skin a cat as we say in England.

I imagine that if you were to take a selection of 100 people who were highly successful in their own fields and asked them what their time management methods are, you would come up with 100 different answers.

But I think that there would be some things that were the same for all of them. For example:

Repetition
Consistency
Monitoring
I'm sure you can think of others

But one thing to notice with these is that you can't use them unless you know what you are aiming at.
November 5, 2021 at 9:18 | Registered CommenterMark Forster
Fortunately, there's a book, briefly discussed on this site before in 2015 called Daily Rituals by Mason Currey, which succinctly and methodically details the daily lives of well over 100 creatives.

There's a remarkable commonality in the structures and principles of their days, even if the exact routines don't seem that similar. Of course, this is a little bit selective, as not everyone generates value by being Creatively Productive in the same way that artists, writers, and such do.
November 5, 2021 at 18:54 | Registered CommenterAaron Hsu
Yes, that site is a nice one. On there we can also learn that Leonardo daVinci worked "little and often" almost as if he had a Autofocus type list in his head:

http://dailyroutines.typepad.com/daily_routines/2020/03/leonardo-da-vinci.html
November 5, 2021 at 20:49 | Unregistered CommenterChristopher
Aaron Hsu:

<< In such a case, the problem isn't so much one of motivation as resistance and maybe whatever it is that would get you to actually *do* something at the right time of the day. Mark has pointed out that resistance can be a bigger issue than motivation.

Now, clearly there was *something* that was done in the Dreams method to help deal with this, but it isn't exactly clear what. For example, using the What's Better list to help you monitor and recognize progress seems obvious, and clearly this is something you should talk about with your future self. But...it's less clear what you might actually *ask* your present self. >>

From Dreams:

<< Q: OK, so if that resistance were a powerful message from your mind to you, what would it be saying? >>

<< If your resistance to doing this were a strong message from your mind, what would that message be?>>

<< Exercise:
Choose a problem that you have been battling for some time without success. Instead of thinking of ways of overcoming it, ask yourself: ‘If this problem is a friend with a message for me, what would that message be?>>

<< Q: So if these emotions were your mind trying to tell you something, what would that message be? >>

<< Push Mode: Resistance seen as an obstacle to be overcome.
Pull mode: Resistance seen as a message to be listened to >>
November 6, 2021 at 0:20 | Registered CommenterBelacqua
And in response to such a "message" you might change your course of action or revise your vision (the latter you've already mentioned, Aaron).

Also key to the Dreams approach seems to be the idea of "trusting your feelings": "I’ll do it when I feel like doing it and not before."

I read Dreams for the first time recently. What a thought-provoking book! I think it's one of those works one will have to read a few times.
November 6, 2021 at 15:28 | Registered CommenterBelacqua
Belacqua:

I re-read the book recently after a several years gap and was astonished at how much I'd forgotten/overlooked. Definitely one of my evergreen nonfiction books.
November 8, 2021 at 14:56 | Unregistered CommenterMike Brown
This is the first time I'm reading "dreams" and I'm really enjoying it. In fact, I started a dialogue with my future self already and it's been great. But then I thought to myself, "I wonder what would happen if I had a dialogue with my past self?" I'm doing that now. It's so enlightening, so encouraging. My past self is mostly just asking questions, but we'll see where this goes as well.
November 10, 2021 at 2:22 | Unregistered CommenterPaul MacNeil
Paul MacNeil:

That sounds very interesting. Please let us know how you get on with it.
November 10, 2021 at 12:32 | Registered CommenterMark Forster
Paul: Do let us know, particularly if you are able to have your past self make different choices and thus change the present. :)

Seriously I think it is brilliant and may try that as well.
November 10, 2021 at 16:35 | Unregistered Commentervegheadjones
Of course it won't change your past, but it could radically alter your understanding of that past, leading to a different interpretation of your present trajectory and an altered course into the future based on your revised understanding.
November 10, 2021 at 18:33 | Registered CommenterAlan Baljeu
Love it so far (dialogue with my past self). I think a dialogue with my future self might be richer in the long run, but while I was in dialogue with my past self I felt a tremendous sense of self-acceptance and peace. It's like I was understanding, accepting and befriending a part of my self that I'm not sure I ever liked. There is real forgiveness operating here. Not surprisingly, today I felt a new sense of confidence that I have never really felt before. Nothing earth-shattering, just a comfort level with how I was responding to the day. Give it a try! You won't be disappointed. But be gentle with yourself.
November 11, 2021 at 2:10 | Unregistered CommenterPaul MacNeil
I haven't tried this exact exercise myself yet, though I think it would be a very valuable one. But something similar I did years ago was ask myself what the themes running through my life so far were. The answer I got has had an enormous influence on me ever since.
November 11, 2021 at 11:24 | Registered CommenterMark Forster
I own a book entitled "My Morning Routine: how successful people start every day inspired" by Benjamin Spall and Michael Xander.
They have a website with statistics:
https://mymorningroutine.com/statistics/

I had been writing my morning routine items on my long list, but because my long list is getting longer, I have started making a checklist of the items, and keeping track.

Many of the people in the book seem like high-energy people. I don't recall anyone saying they did nothing as part of their morning routine. The impression is either that the person is Superman or their morning routine extends all the way to noon.
Leo Babauta, creator of Zen Habits, however admits he has no fixed routine anymore. It is flexible, "no-routine", "changes all the time", "every day is different".
Ann Marie Cox says:
"When I read other people's routines in this kind of roundup, I always compare them to mine, and always find my discipline lacking. It gives me lots of delicious new reasons to beat myself up-Oh, she runs a mile! He reads the whole front section of the New York Times! She dispenses with her entire email queue! I'd like anyone reading this to know these things are always aspirational! I've battled depression from time to time, and in those periods, I've needed to remind myself that simply getting out of bed can be a victory. What we are capable of changes from day to day."
November 11, 2021 at 21:02 | Unregistered CommenterMark H.
Mark: Re: <<life themes >>

Once you made them conscious how did you use that understanding, if that's not too personal.

I'm wondering if I could try this you see.
November 12, 2021 at 18:38 | Unregistered Commentermichael
michael:

The most influential one was "freedom". I wanted freedom to live my life the way I really wanted to and not the way i (or other people) thought I ought to. In brief, that led me to take the leap out of paid employment, and retire completely once I had earned as much money as I wanted to.
November 13, 2021 at 19:25 | Registered CommenterMark Forster