Discussion Forum > The Dreams method really highlights Fear, Perfectionism, and FOMO
I think you might have arrived at some of the issues that can occur with using any kind of productivity system in that they can lead to excessive pace, or pressure, or perfectionism. I believe the remedy for that is to include in the autofocus list - or whichever other list you use - activities to decelerate, rest, sleep, and appreciate. Activities that involve what might be called “transcendent” values.
November 24, 2021 at 15:17 |
michael
michael
Interesting. Personally, I haven't felt FOMO while using Dreams. Perhaps this is because rather quickly I was able to get a clear future vision.
I suppose FOMO could be assuaged by reminding oneself that 1) Your vision is evolving (you can keep adjusting it) and 2) We're always already missing out on things anyway: "[T]here are millions of opportunities that float past us every day" (Dreams). We only pick up on a precious few (as in Mark's example of noticing when someone has the same car as you, while paying little heed to other vehicles). As least, with Dreams, you're training your subconscious to pay attention to things that matter.
What I wonder about Dreams after using it for a few weeks is whether I will stick to it for a longer period or whether I will take the ideas as a (relatively) brief clarifying exercise before returning to a list system. One thing I've found once the vision is clear is that I tend to think more about the basics of doing things efficiently. For that, it's seems easier to switch back to, e.g., Simple Scanning, rather than continue with a no list system like Dreams. But we'll see. The no list approach is also attractive. Either way, Dreams is quite a book.
I suppose FOMO could be assuaged by reminding oneself that 1) Your vision is evolving (you can keep adjusting it) and 2) We're always already missing out on things anyway: "[T]here are millions of opportunities that float past us every day" (Dreams). We only pick up on a precious few (as in Mark's example of noticing when someone has the same car as you, while paying little heed to other vehicles). As least, with Dreams, you're training your subconscious to pay attention to things that matter.
What I wonder about Dreams after using it for a few weeks is whether I will stick to it for a longer period or whether I will take the ideas as a (relatively) brief clarifying exercise before returning to a list system. One thing I've found once the vision is clear is that I tend to think more about the basics of doing things efficiently. For that, it's seems easier to switch back to, e.g., Simple Scanning, rather than continue with a no list system like Dreams. But we'll see. The no list approach is also attractive. Either way, Dreams is quite a book.
November 26, 2021 at 14:50 |
Belacqua
Belacqua
I definitely think that there is a temperament/personality element to this. I'm naturally very competitive, ambitious, and high "trait Openness", meaning that I very much enjoy exploration, novelty, creativity, and discovery. I'm primed to look for wide ranging and expansive opportunities and them feel a compulsion to be the "best" at whatever possibility shows up. That can be a very oppressive issue to have with perfectionism. The result is that it's exceptionally difficult for me to feel satisfied with not being the "best at everything", this despite knowing intellectually that I can't be and that I have to greatly restrict my own pursuits in order to achieve excellence in anything.
Like you, I'm also interested in knowing whether I will continue to use Dreams as a long-term system or not. On the other hand, I compare the various elements of Dreams differently against a long list system than it appears that you're doing.
For instance, I don't consider the Goal Achievement Method to be the thing against which I compare a long list task selection process in terms of "doing things efficiently." What I mean is that I think the "low level system" of Dreams, to use an SoPP concept, is actually the What's Better list, not the GAM. The What's Better list is where you actually drive concrete action at a low level in Dreams, IMO. Without the What's Better list, I don't think the method would have enough present-focus emphasis on movement and action-orientation in the now to be effective. But the What's Better list helps to drive increment, little and often progress on a daily time scale, which is the same sort of thing that a long list does at its basic core.
Where I see the GAM coming in compared to a long list is how the two systems drive coherence, motivation, intuition, and commitment. With a long list system, you gain these by getting a sense of your list as a whole, and observing and learning from what things are moving and what things are lagging on the list, prompting you to ask yourself high level questions like what you should dismiss and what you want to add or think about adding to your list. And seeing that movement and overall pricture and maturation of the list over time is what helps to drive further motivation and a sense of intuition that helps the right items stand out better over time. Here, the GAM serves the same, role, I think, clarifying what you want to focus on, training your intuition/honing it, and serving as the motivating drive that helps to inject some energy into the system. It gives you direction and purpose to the What's Better list so that your low level actions are directed towards something, rather than just going everywhere.
So, for me, the real question is whether a What's Better list will result over the long term in a better low-level engagement with daily action over time or whether a long/no-list does that better.
Like you, I'm also interested in knowing whether I will continue to use Dreams as a long-term system or not. On the other hand, I compare the various elements of Dreams differently against a long list system than it appears that you're doing.
For instance, I don't consider the Goal Achievement Method to be the thing against which I compare a long list task selection process in terms of "doing things efficiently." What I mean is that I think the "low level system" of Dreams, to use an SoPP concept, is actually the What's Better list, not the GAM. The What's Better list is where you actually drive concrete action at a low level in Dreams, IMO. Without the What's Better list, I don't think the method would have enough present-focus emphasis on movement and action-orientation in the now to be effective. But the What's Better list helps to drive increment, little and often progress on a daily time scale, which is the same sort of thing that a long list does at its basic core.
Where I see the GAM coming in compared to a long list is how the two systems drive coherence, motivation, intuition, and commitment. With a long list system, you gain these by getting a sense of your list as a whole, and observing and learning from what things are moving and what things are lagging on the list, prompting you to ask yourself high level questions like what you should dismiss and what you want to add or think about adding to your list. And seeing that movement and overall pricture and maturation of the list over time is what helps to drive further motivation and a sense of intuition that helps the right items stand out better over time. Here, the GAM serves the same, role, I think, clarifying what you want to focus on, training your intuition/honing it, and serving as the motivating drive that helps to inject some energy into the system. It gives you direction and purpose to the What's Better list so that your low level actions are directed towards something, rather than just going everywhere.
So, for me, the real question is whether a What's Better list will result over the long term in a better low-level engagement with daily action over time or whether a long/no-list does that better.
November 27, 2021 at 2:17 |
Aaron Hsu
Aaron Hsu
Hi Aaron,
Your take on "What's Better?" and GAM sounds about right to me. I agree that "What's better?" is important, at least until you get to the stage (described in the second half of the book) where you are confident that "Everything is better" because the pull toward your vision is so strong. At that point, Mark transcends the initial techniques.
So, you could take my question as a comparison between long list and "What's better?" if you wish. Anyway, the gist was that I'm still uncertain whether 1. Dreams/another no list system or 2. a list system is best to help me achieve what I want to achieve. Time will tell.
Maybe a fictional example would make this more concrete. Let's take Jane. Her vision involves helping others as much as possible. Her work is a core component of that vision. Jane is an admin assistant for a non-profit which, she is convinced, is doing excellent work. Jane wants to be great at her job so that she can become the personal assistant of the director. After that maybe she can become a PA for someone even more important, making an impact on the world. Jane has been using the Dreams techniques.
But Jane has doubts. Should she should go back to Mark Forster's list systems or should she continue with Dreams? Jane wants to be a great admin assistant. In order to achieve her vision, she will have to work efficiently on many routine tasks, keep track of a ton of stuff and not forget things; she will have to be organized and always on the ball. Jane enjoys the freedom she feels while working without a list. But, occasionally, she worries about forgetting things and wonders if she is spending too much mental energy processing routine tasks. Jane loves Dreams but she wonders if a long-list system might furnish a simpler way of becoming a great admin assistant.
Although this is far from my line of work, I've embedded some of my concerns in the example. I would think this kind of scenario is common for people after reading Dreams. In the Dreams diary, Mark's main work task was writing the book itself, but not too many of us are writing books! We're probably doing jobs where it's more tempting to use a long list to juggle tasks. That said, I remain open-minded and agnostic as to whether long list, "no-list," or no list at all is best. I guess the natural answer is that it depends on the person and the circumstances.
Your take on "What's Better?" and GAM sounds about right to me. I agree that "What's better?" is important, at least until you get to the stage (described in the second half of the book) where you are confident that "Everything is better" because the pull toward your vision is so strong. At that point, Mark transcends the initial techniques.
So, you could take my question as a comparison between long list and "What's better?" if you wish. Anyway, the gist was that I'm still uncertain whether 1. Dreams/another no list system or 2. a list system is best to help me achieve what I want to achieve. Time will tell.
Maybe a fictional example would make this more concrete. Let's take Jane. Her vision involves helping others as much as possible. Her work is a core component of that vision. Jane is an admin assistant for a non-profit which, she is convinced, is doing excellent work. Jane wants to be great at her job so that she can become the personal assistant of the director. After that maybe she can become a PA for someone even more important, making an impact on the world. Jane has been using the Dreams techniques.
But Jane has doubts. Should she should go back to Mark Forster's list systems or should she continue with Dreams? Jane wants to be a great admin assistant. In order to achieve her vision, she will have to work efficiently on many routine tasks, keep track of a ton of stuff and not forget things; she will have to be organized and always on the ball. Jane enjoys the freedom she feels while working without a list. But, occasionally, she worries about forgetting things and wonders if she is spending too much mental energy processing routine tasks. Jane loves Dreams but she wonders if a long-list system might furnish a simpler way of becoming a great admin assistant.
Although this is far from my line of work, I've embedded some of my concerns in the example. I would think this kind of scenario is common for people after reading Dreams. In the Dreams diary, Mark's main work task was writing the book itself, but not too many of us are writing books! We're probably doing jobs where it's more tempting to use a long list to juggle tasks. That said, I remain open-minded and agnostic as to whether long list, "no-list," or no list at all is best. I guess the natural answer is that it depends on the person and the circumstances.
November 27, 2021 at 15:07 |
Belacqua
Belacqua
I think your description of Jane is accurate for me as well! The work in Dreams can be pretty intensive, and especially when compared to Mark's standing out long list systems, I too wonder whether I couldn't be just as effective but with less "mental effort" by simply running a long list system. After all, the long list systems are exceptionally simple, on multiple levels.
The biggest one I think here is how Dreams and no list systems rely on your willingness to intentionally cultivate a sort of order/rhythm/routine that you slowly embed into yourself. On the other hand, if you don't do this, a long list system will still tend to drive towards a certain sort of routine whether you put in extra mental effort or not.
I'm much more in the "write a book" category of work than a manager's "100 things all right now" sort of life, but even I wonder if a long list might not just make things easier to manage.
On the other hand, Dreams is really fun, and when you have that acceptance to just work towards your vision without pushing, that's a great feeling.
The biggest one I think here is how Dreams and no list systems rely on your willingness to intentionally cultivate a sort of order/rhythm/routine that you slowly embed into yourself. On the other hand, if you don't do this, a long list system will still tend to drive towards a certain sort of routine whether you put in extra mental effort or not.
I'm much more in the "write a book" category of work than a manager's "100 things all right now" sort of life, but even I wonder if a long list might not just make things easier to manage.
On the other hand, Dreams is really fun, and when you have that acceptance to just work towards your vision without pushing, that's a great feeling.
November 27, 2021 at 23:56 |
Aaron Hsu
Aaron Hsu
I believe long list systems cannot achieve what Dreams does, except by including the kinds of practices proposed in Dreams on that list. Otherwise, your tendency will be to continue doing the same kinds of things you always did, rather than truly explore options for the future. But put that exploring into your long list and it could happen.
My current self-management project is attempting to eliminate my need for a long list system. I had always felt no-list approaches were inadequate because there’s way too many things that I won’t remember to do if they aren’t in a list. But long list systems were also problematic for me particularly in that I just couldn’t stick to looking always at a list for the task to do next. So I’d have that list but I didn’t always look at it.
My approach is to find other ways to make sure I do everything, other than writing everything on a list. That’s a topic for another post, but if I succeed then Dreams type systems will work perfect because they won’t compete with a long list.
My current self-management project is attempting to eliminate my need for a long list system. I had always felt no-list approaches were inadequate because there’s way too many things that I won’t remember to do if they aren’t in a list. But long list systems were also problematic for me particularly in that I just couldn’t stick to looking always at a list for the task to do next. So I’d have that list but I didn’t always look at it.
My approach is to find other ways to make sure I do everything, other than writing everything on a list. That’s a topic for another post, but if I succeed then Dreams type systems will work perfect because they won’t compete with a long list.
November 29, 2021 at 0:14 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
A thing that I've noticed, that has come up in using the method, is how much trying to "do what you feel like, not what you feel like you ought to be doing" really brings into focus Fear of Missing Out, fear of "forgetting", or a perfectionistic mindset. I know that I struggle with this at least as much as your average Joe. :-)
With Dreams, the thing that occupies your mind is what you've clarified through working your vision. That means, very much, that if something is *not* part of your vision, your mind is being primed to automatically, subconsciously, say no to it. You're intentionally training your filter to prevent you from sabotaging your own dreams. But, frankly, that's a very scary thing.
This is scary because you know that you don't have the perfect vision, and that your vision will evolve over time. You're also having to trust your feelings without being able to "prove" to yourself that there's nothing "better" to do.
For example, if you use a long list system, especially FVP, if you're afraid of missing out on something, you can assuage that fear by putting it on the list, and then, when you go through the list, by the time you are at the end of it with FVP, you've basically done a mental proof to yourself that what you've selected is in fact the "best" thing you can be doing right now.
But all of that is GONE with the Dreams method. Suddenly, you have to trust that you really do want your vision more than anything else, and that your mind is going to get you there without "missing something better". You might get there really fast, but it's a little like free-falling towards your destination. Things might be zipping past you and maybe you're missing something by shooting so fast towards your destination? But you're moving so fast that maybe you can't even see them (mentally speaking) because your mind has already dismissed them after a fleeting contact.
Frankly, that's a pretty scary experience, especially for someone with perfectionistic tendencies. Often, this becomes *most* strong after I've done some "big stuff" and now I'm spending an evening trying to relax and prepare for more big stuff tomorrow. Suddenly, what should I do? Well, there's my mind suddenly seeking out for things that I ought to do, and that I think I should be doing. And then if I feel like doing something, I might also be afraid, because what if there was something better I could be doing but I just forgot? Is what I'm doing really the "best" thing that I could be doing right now? So, rather than just letting myself do the thing that I feel like doing right now, my perfectionistic mind is always a little unsure, because I have skipped the physical process of exhaustively scanning everything I could be doing and convincing myself that this really is the "best" thing. I'm having to let myself be okay with taking action without having everything figured out and without being absolutely sure that i'm doing the best thing.
This rather large leap of faith in the Dreams method is quite the experience, especially for someone whose job it is to basically "not miss things" in some sense. Being able to take an action because I feel like doing it and discard the mental process of constantly evaluating shoulds, oughts, and "bests" is really quite difficult.