Discussion Forum > How do you "ponder" in a no list system?
Actually the answer is quite simple. You include your "no-list" within your "long-list".
How to do this will be the subject of a blog post in the not-so-distant future.
How to do this will be the subject of a blog post in the not-so-distant future.
April 15, 2022 at 11:47 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
I am interested in this,on how to integrate short lists (no-lists) with long lists.
I find the short list works best with a close deadline within the next hour or so, what to do before leaving for work, what to do before dinner, what to cook for dinner, what to do before leaving on a trip, what to pack for the trip, what to do before getting ready for bed, what to do on the library computer when there's limited time, what to do to finish up at work. Some of the items would be on a long list, but many would not. Some of these could be a recurring checklist, but I have found that there are usually enough unique items that it is more practical to just write up a fresh list each time. I find that writing a list with several items is more motivating than writing and doing an item at a time. I also find that writing down usually will ensure that I do not forget something, such as remembering to take my smartphone, or making a call before a trip. Most of the time I accomplish everything on the list, which is satisfying.
I don't always work from a list.
I have tried keeping the long list in a notebook and writing the short lists on a memopad and throwing the page out. I have tried interspersing the short lists and long list in one notebook, so I only have one book to write in, but the long list gets harder to find and work from.
One key question seems to be what list, if any, one works from. With Autofocus, one works from the long list,which ensures that one is constantly reviewing it. One could review the long list daily, and select items for the day, so there are two lists, the Master List, and the Daily List. If the long list is reviewed weekly or monthly, it becomes a Someday/Maybe list. Maybe there is then a to-do list for the week. Or one could write a fresh list each day.
Daniel Levitin in his book "The Organized Mind" recommends using index cards, one for each idea, task. He also recommends a mind dump like David Allen, or if a thought is distracting you
from focusing, write it down. I don't find anywhere where he tells what to do with these items however. He warns against multitasking and task switching, which seems to contradict his other advice. He advises doing similar tasks like chores together, separate from planning mode,which uses a different part of the brain.
Some do advise to put someday/maybe items on the calendar to review. This makes sense if there is a time that is more appropriate then now. Theoretically, one could put all these items on an Autofocus list, but then the list gets very long.
I find the short list works best with a close deadline within the next hour or so, what to do before leaving for work, what to do before dinner, what to cook for dinner, what to do before leaving on a trip, what to pack for the trip, what to do before getting ready for bed, what to do on the library computer when there's limited time, what to do to finish up at work. Some of the items would be on a long list, but many would not. Some of these could be a recurring checklist, but I have found that there are usually enough unique items that it is more practical to just write up a fresh list each time. I find that writing a list with several items is more motivating than writing and doing an item at a time. I also find that writing down usually will ensure that I do not forget something, such as remembering to take my smartphone, or making a call before a trip. Most of the time I accomplish everything on the list, which is satisfying.
I don't always work from a list.
I have tried keeping the long list in a notebook and writing the short lists on a memopad and throwing the page out. I have tried interspersing the short lists and long list in one notebook, so I only have one book to write in, but the long list gets harder to find and work from.
One key question seems to be what list, if any, one works from. With Autofocus, one works from the long list,which ensures that one is constantly reviewing it. One could review the long list daily, and select items for the day, so there are two lists, the Master List, and the Daily List. If the long list is reviewed weekly or monthly, it becomes a Someday/Maybe list. Maybe there is then a to-do list for the week. Or one could write a fresh list each day.
Daniel Levitin in his book "The Organized Mind" recommends using index cards, one for each idea, task. He also recommends a mind dump like David Allen, or if a thought is distracting you
from focusing, write it down. I don't find anywhere where he tells what to do with these items however. He warns against multitasking and task switching, which seems to contradict his other advice. He advises doing similar tasks like chores together, separate from planning mode,which uses a different part of the brain.
Some do advise to put someday/maybe items on the calendar to review. This makes sense if there is a time that is more appropriate then now. Theoretically, one could put all these items on an Autofocus list, but then the list gets very long.
April 15, 2022 at 17:41 |
Mark H.
Mark H.
> Actually the answer is quite simple. You include your "no-list" within your "long-list".
>
> How to do this will be the subject of a blog post in the not-so-distant future.
> April 15, 2022 at 11:47 | Mark Forster
That’s exactly how I do it too!
>
> How to do this will be the subject of a blog post in the not-so-distant future.
> April 15, 2022 at 11:47 | Mark Forster
That’s exactly how I do it too!
April 15, 2022 at 22:52 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Mark Forster:
On second read, maybe you have something different in mind. I have a long list which includes these Think About tasks, and I have a short list that starts from no-list, and which is constructed in part by pulling from the long list.
Respomding to Mark H.
« I find the short list works best with a close deadline within the next hour or so…»
I make my list up for the next day or so, in Serial No-List fashion. I could add to that list some immediate items if I needed to work through a lot of tiny details for e.g. packing. I don’t currently run through such checklists often, but if I did have a regular checklist, such would be a separate checklist, and my day’s list would simply refer me to that list for action.
«One key question seems to be what list, if any, one works from. With Autofocus, one works from the long list,which ensures that one is constantly reviewing it. One could review the long list daily, and select items for the day, so there are two lists, the Master List, and the Daily List. If the long list is reviewed weekly or monthly, it becomes a Someday/Maybe list. Maybe there is then a to-do list for the week. Or one could write a fresh list each day. »
In my case, I work from a fresh list every day. My long list is by design not very long, is examined once daily, and gone through every week.
«Daniel Levitin in his book "The Organized Mind" recommends using index cards, one for each idea, task. He also recommends a mind dump like David Allen, or if a thought is distracting you
from focusing, write it down. »
Because I work from an outliner, each item in my list can become link an index card when necessary. It’s very simple. If i’m working on an item and I need details, I look at and work those details. If a thought distracts me I put it on the today list, and will think about it later today. Often it will resolve into a task I pick up tomorrow or during the week.
«Some do advise to put someday/maybe items on the calendar to review.»
I have come to eschew maybes. Focus on what matters to you now and fill your life with plans to do the definitelies. More precisely, each of these definitelies should enter into your system as a Planning task. But don’t convert all your Maybes to Definitelies at once! That can’t work. Pick one and plan to plan it. Or if you don’t know which to pick, your new task is to think about it and decide on it.
On second read, maybe you have something different in mind. I have a long list which includes these Think About tasks, and I have a short list that starts from no-list, and which is constructed in part by pulling from the long list.
Respomding to Mark H.
« I find the short list works best with a close deadline within the next hour or so…»
I make my list up for the next day or so, in Serial No-List fashion. I could add to that list some immediate items if I needed to work through a lot of tiny details for e.g. packing. I don’t currently run through such checklists often, but if I did have a regular checklist, such would be a separate checklist, and my day’s list would simply refer me to that list for action.
«One key question seems to be what list, if any, one works from. With Autofocus, one works from the long list,which ensures that one is constantly reviewing it. One could review the long list daily, and select items for the day, so there are two lists, the Master List, and the Daily List. If the long list is reviewed weekly or monthly, it becomes a Someday/Maybe list. Maybe there is then a to-do list for the week. Or one could write a fresh list each day. »
In my case, I work from a fresh list every day. My long list is by design not very long, is examined once daily, and gone through every week.
«Daniel Levitin in his book "The Organized Mind" recommends using index cards, one for each idea, task. He also recommends a mind dump like David Allen, or if a thought is distracting you
from focusing, write it down. »
Because I work from an outliner, each item in my list can become link an index card when necessary. It’s very simple. If i’m working on an item and I need details, I look at and work those details. If a thought distracts me I put it on the today list, and will think about it later today. Often it will resolve into a task I pick up tomorrow or during the week.
«Some do advise to put someday/maybe items on the calendar to review.»
I have come to eschew maybes. Focus on what matters to you now and fill your life with plans to do the definitelies. More precisely, each of these definitelies should enter into your system as a Planning task. But don’t convert all your Maybes to Definitelies at once! That can’t work. Pick one and plan to plan it. Or if you don’t know which to pick, your new task is to think about it and decide on it.
April 15, 2022 at 23:28 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Mark:
<<Actually the answer is quite simple. You include your "no-list" within your "long-list".
How to do this will be the subject of a blog post in the not-so-distant future.>>
Seeing as how I have no idea what you are talking about here and cannot even picture it, I very much look forward to a blog post on the topic!
<<Actually the answer is quite simple. You include your "no-list" within your "long-list".
How to do this will be the subject of a blog post in the not-so-distant future.>>
Seeing as how I have no idea what you are talking about here and cannot even picture it, I very much look forward to a blog post on the topic!
April 17, 2022 at 2:58 |
Aaron Hsu
Aaron Hsu
Conjecture: you have your long list, and then you decide you want to switch to 5-Tasks method. Write 5 new tasks on your long list, but for now only focus on the last 5 things. Eventually you are done with 5T and go back to scanning the full list.
April 17, 2022 at 13:23 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Yes I've tried just to put the short list at the end of the long list and it works sometimes.
It occurs to me that I take my notebook with me and if it's only writing paper that I have I will do the short list in my notebook rather than carry several notebooks around. Or put it on a separate piece of paper which I might not have at the time. Often I don't complete every single item on a short list and then I just review it as part of the long list.
It occurs to me that I take my notebook with me and if it's only writing paper that I have I will do the short list in my notebook rather than carry several notebooks around. Or put it on a separate piece of paper which I might not have at the time. Often I don't complete every single item on a short list and then I just review it as part of the long list.
April 17, 2022 at 18:35 |
Mark H
Mark H
Going back to pondering: if I wanted to do pondering I tend not to do it on a short list. I might journal or write stream of consciousness or do a mind dump or brain dump or take a walk and let my mind wander which is one of the modes of the brain.
April 17, 2022 at 18:46 |
Mark H
Mark H
Daniel Levitin says that there are three different modes of the brain and that one is the central executive mode that does the planning and evaluation of the plan and another is the worker mode that puts the plan interaction and then there is another mode that is the detailed worker mode that notices at the missed the spot. He advises against switching modes often so that he advises doing chores together and 5 minute tasks together. He advises focusing on one subject for a period of longer time 45 minutes to an hour.
April 17, 2022 at 18:57 |
Mark H
Mark H
Aaron Hsu:
<< Seeing as how I have no idea what you are talking about here and cannot even picture it, >>
It's actually very simple. But I haven't tested it out yet as other things have got in the way. All will be revealed in good time!
<< Seeing as how I have no idea what you are talking about here and cannot even picture it, >>
It's actually very simple. But I haven't tested it out yet as other things have got in the way. All will be revealed in good time!
April 17, 2022 at 23:14 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
With a long list, doing this will allow each idea to achieve a natural sort of balance in how often you think about it. You get to "forget" about it for a while, and then it pops back up with the help of your list, without you having to do any work.
But what about with a no list system? How would you get the same effect? If I have an idea, I could write it down, but I wouldn't ever see this as a regular part of my work because in my day to day work I don't want to think about those things, and I would only want to be thinking about those things "in between" my work. They are things that deserve more thought than I would naturally give them if I were just trying to recall them on my own, or, to put it another way, they would require way too much mental overhead to try to remember to think about them regularly, and so it is easier to forget about them, with the effect that I will only remember to think about them at inopportune moments that might leave my unprepared when they become much more important to me.
This sort of puts them in the category of things that I right now "feel" as if they are unimportant, and thus I will be mentally tempted to ignore them at the moment, but which potentially are things that if not at least given a tiny bit of thought now, have the potential to simply snowball later on, and create a lot of work for me in the future.
Maybe it's me getting a sense that my wardrobe is in needing of a little updating, for example, or a particular problem that I think I'll need to address in the future, but that really isn't quite ready to be tackled head on yet. In both of these cases, I don't want to have to be remembering to think about them, and I'm unlikely to remember to put them on my no list to think about them, since my mind will be thinking about other things. So where do I get the exposure to these little simmering pots of potential? Where do I get to spend 30 seconds refining my thoughts about what I might do with my wardrobe? I don't actually want to go out and shop for anything right now, but a few weeks' worth of little thinking about the idea here and there will mean that when I actually do decide it's time to shop, I'll have a much firmer sense of what I need and want to do. Same goes for that little problem. By asking myself to picture it for only the time it takes to review it on my list, I'm subtly priming my mind to begin prepping for work on it. Then, I can suddenly get the feeling that I should do a little bit of prep work on it. And then when someone else comes to me to discuss something, wouldn't you know it, but I was just thinking about that! And then I have the roadmap in my head already and we can walk through a solution rapidly. Whereas, if I hadn't been thinking about this a little bit all the time, I never would have been ready to answer the question or do any work on that.
It occurs to me that one option would be to keep a list of this stuff to think about, but that feels a little bit strange. I mean, if I followed that idea with everything, then I'd pretty much be back to a long list system of some sort. I could put reminders on my calendar, but that's basically just another list. Both of these ideas would require that I somehow predict or plan ahead of time some schedule for review. In the one, I'd have to explicitly let myself put something like "Review my simmering list" on my no list for the day, moreover, I'd have to remember to actually care about reviewing my simmering list, which, frankly, I probably have a bad sense of when to do and when not to do (this is the reason that GTD has the weekly review wherein you are supposed to definitely check into your someday/maybe list). But if it is on the calendar then I'm trying to figure out ahead of time how often I should review this thing, which also seems sub-optimal.
This sort of "planting seeds" thing seems very hard to replicate in a no list system as effectively as you can do in a long list system. Is that just an inherent trade-off in the focused nature of a no list versus the "seed bed of possibilities" model of a long list?