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Discussion Forum > the search for the perfect system

In his blog post on NQ-FVP (part 2), Mark wrote:
<< Is it actually possible to have a perfect system? >>

http://markforster.squarespace.com/blog/2022/4/23/some-aspects-of-nq-fvp-part-2.html

Here is another way to phrase the question:
"Is it possible to have a system that could not be improved?"

I suspect it's impossible to have such a system.

Consider the body of mathematical knowledge. As a system, it can always be improved (i.e., made more complete), as proven by Godel's Incompleteness Theorem.

Also, I suspect the improvement of time management systems is something akin to the improvement of personal and organizational effectiveness as described by Elliot Jacques in his book, Requisite Organization. He describes several "quantum levels" of organizational challenges, and a corresponding personal capability to tackle those challenges. First, he describes four broad categories of human capability:

1-- Pre-verbal / tangible / concrete
2-- Symbolic / verbal
3-- Conceptual / abstract
4-- Universal / systemic

Within each of those four broad categories, he identifies specific levels of capability:

A-- Declarative (this is X, this is Y; we can focus on either X or Y, but not both at the same time)
B-- Cumulative (this is X, this is Y; we can consider the impact of both X and Y when considered at the same time)
C-- Serial (this is X, this is Y, this is Z; they follow in a sequence and have a relationship of dependency)
D-- Parallel (the ability to consider many mutually interdependent lines of serial dependencies)


According to Jacques, as a person's capability in any given domain grows, the person makes mini quantum jumps, first within A-B-C-D levels of capability, and then more significantly, from one broad category to the next. In organizations, a person will be most successful when their personal capability matches the level of organizational responsibility of their assigned work.

I have found this framework very helpful in explaining why some changes feel like "meh" incremental changes, whereas other changes feel like real breakthroughs. The breakthroughs come when the change brings you from one of these quantum states to the next. It may require one or more intermediate "meh" changes before you are able to develop the insight and capability required to make the quantum-leap breakthrough.

I think time management systems may follow a similar pattern. They have no value at all until one is operating at the symbolic/verbal level. Perhaps some systems are a good fit for a particular range of capability, but are overkill for the lower levels of capability, and not well suited for the higher levels of capability.

For example, a simple, short to-do list operates at the Symbolic Declarative level (2A) and is perfectly suited to that level of work. But for most of us, in this age of information and meta-information, our work goes far beyond that level, and our time management systems must be capable of handling it.

I would guess that intuition-driven systems like NQ-FVP can operate effectively anywhere from 2A (Symbolic Declarative) all the way up to 3D (Conceptual Parallel), depending on the kind of things you put on your list and your habits of conceptualizing those things. But maybe its overkill for the lower levels like 2A-2B, and maybe not powerful enough for the systemic level.

Personally, I tend to find my raw intuition is not enough to handle problems at the universal / systemic level -- I need to tackle the problems differently, thinking about things like flow, WIP, constraints, conflicts, feedback loops, etc. So I need to take a step back and analyze my work differently, when I start running into problems like that.

But maybe others, who have a more clearly internalized and intuitive sense of complex system dynamics, would operate at level 4 with NQ-FVP just fine. People like Deming and Goldratt and Reinertsen.

Anyway, I think it's an interesting framework for considering the search for the perfect time management system.
May 2, 2022 at 16:58 | Registered CommenterSeraphim
My pet theory about this is that there is a non-linear, non-monotonic relationship between the external complexity of time management systems (including the people who use them) and the increase in fundamental capabilities to handle increasingly complex responsibilities.

Specifically, I think there is a progression through time management systems as one becomes more and more capable both within a specific environment and across multiple environments that goes from "simple and naive" to "complex and involved" to "simple yet sophisticated." I see this pattern a lot, where you see the people that are low on the "environmental complexity" ladder using simple, naive approaches to getting work done, and doing fine with that, and then you see a myriad of complex systems emerging as people start engaging with more and more responsibility across wider domains or dealing with more abstract requirements. This is where the vast majority of modern knowledge workers exist, I think. But then at some point you get to these ultra-high performers. These are the people who are really pushing things, and I've noticed a disproportionate number of them have insanely simple systems.

I think this has to do with a couple of preconceptions that tend to emerge in modern work. As we move into the more complex environments, the people in the "majority middle" as it were, are emerging from a fixed mindset with regard to their own capabilities and the like, leading them to engage with their personal TMS in a way that allows them to consciously alter how they do work, but they *retain* a fixed mindset about their external environment.

You hear this all the time when you see people discussing their lives.

"I need a system to handle all my crazy incoming inputs."

"My work changes on a minute-by-minute basis and I need to deal with that."

"My inbox is full of tons of things I need to keep track of, so I need a system for that."

"I was using to do lists, but now I need something more because my work environment is just too complex to keep on a single list."

These are the sort of people who reject simple to do lists or the like and start using ever more complex systems in order to ensure that they are able to organize and handle their workloads. Lots of plates in the air, lots of things to deal with, lots of everything. More more more.

And you see systems coming out of this mindset that are just as complex as their workloads. I think GTD is the quintessential example of this in most people's practice, though ironically, I don't think David Allen actually teaches it that way. But there are so many knobs to tweak with GTD that everyone tends to think they need X Y or Z new or different thing to help tweak their performance. So their GTD systems become more and more complex. Same goes with people using sophisticated software to manage their workflows in a Scrum or Agile style.

But if you look at a lot of the top performers, they don't need any of that, and their lives are actually relatively simple by comparison. How is that possible? I think the key insight that takes them there is a recognition that you have a lot more agency over your external environment than you think you do, usually, and that the systematic addressing of each of these potential environmental factors removes the need for additional internal complexity. In other words, these ultra-high-performers are tweaking their systems not to manage complexity, but to reduce that complexity from ever emerging in the first place.

I see a lot of people who aren't willing to do this. Rather than cutting into the root of things and altering fundamental things about the nature of their work, they assume that the nature of their work is fixed, and the try to deal with what emerges out of that.

Thus, I think that many of the TMS systems that people reject beyond the 2A level as being unable to handle the bigger stuff, actually prove to be *more* effective at handling the more complex stuff. The problem isn't so much the system, but the misuse of the systems by people who don't understand the bigger picture.

But what's that phrase? Simplicity is found at the far end of complexity or something like that? I think a lot of times it's hard to see how the simple things work until you've experienced the complex things.

As an example, the WIP principle is something a lot of people won't grasp easily, and so if you tell them something like using a closed list or a Kanban board with a fixed WIP limit, many of them will feel that the system is too restrictive, and too unsophisticated to be able to handle their needs. But the people who really get that principle are able to leverage that simplicity to eliminate the need for a whole host of complex issues, thus improving their performance by large margins. Meanwhile, those people who dismissed such things as too simplistic to apply in their case are constantly struggling with systems that are attempting to help them cope with systemically inefficient environmental factors.

A lot of the most brilliant systems create these subtle, simple rules that have magical emergent properties that allow you to effortlessly grapple with some of the hardest issues of time management or other organizational questions, but seem to be almost trivially unsophisticated on the surface. Not the least of these principles is the idea of a simple system being easier to stick to.
May 3, 2022 at 10:36 | Registered CommenterAaron Hsu
"Is it actually possible to have a perfect system?"

My answer to the question: 95 words
Seraphim's:646 words
Aaron's 936 words.

I'm not sure I can answer every point made, but I'll have a go at picking one or two points from each that I think I might have something to say about.
May 3, 2022 at 13:16 | Registered CommenterMark Forster
Seraphim:

<< Here is another way to phrase the question:
"Is it possible to have a system that could not be improved?" >>

I'm not convinced that this is the same question. The reason there is such a plethora of time management systems is that most time management systems have a limit beyond which it is impossible to improve them further without completely losing what makes them a distinct system. That doesn't make them perfect, quite the opposite.

<< Personally, I tend to find my raw intuition is not enough to handle problems at the universal / systemic level -- I need to tackle the problems differently, thinking about things like flow, WIP, constraints, conflicts, feedback loops, etc. So I need to take a step back and analyze my work differently, when I start running into problems like that. >>

Yes, but time management is about what you do and the order in which you do it. In other words whatever your time management method it is going to result in a linear order of tasks, e.g.

Buy birthday card for mother
Order more staples
Flow?
Answer email
Find out what's taking so long with Chris
WIP?
Nap
Read Mark Forster's blog
Constraints?
Call Maria
Conflicts?
Tidy desk
Feedback loops?
Make cup of tea
Watch Netflix
May 3, 2022 at 13:28 | Registered CommenterMark Forster
Aaron:

<< But then at some point you get to these ultra-high performers. These are the people who are really pushing things, and I've noticed a disproportionate number of them have insanely simple systems. >>

I think I've already at some time in the past answered a similar point, maybe from you. I think we were talking about Bill Gates. I said that I don't want to know what his [insanely simple] system is now - I want to know what his system was when he wasn't rich and famous, and which he used to become rich and famous.

The reason is that people like Bill Gates are surrounded by flunkies whose job is to make life insanely simple for the boss.
May 3, 2022 at 13:42 | Registered CommenterMark Forster
Mark:

<< Bill Gates. I said that I don't want to know what his [insanely simple] system is now - I want to know what his system was when he wasn't rich and famous, >>

Exactly.

When I published my first book, colleagues would ask me: How did you find the time? You were about to have your first baby, you were running a private practice... etc. etc?

There was an (incorrect) assumption in their question that we both were leading similar lives. This was false. In my case, my wife was a full-time physician, and I was seeing the bare minimum of clients. I outsourced everything (graphic design, editing) but the grind of finding a publisher, and writing the manuscript. The final product had very little to do with a to-do list, or a productivity system per se. It was a combination of luck, blessings, my wife's patience and self-awareness of my limitations.
May 3, 2022 at 14:30 | Registered Commenteravrum
Seraphim: Jacques categories of capability make sense, but I don’t agree they are levels. Not every activity follows the 1-2-3-4 as a growth pattern. The Levels A-B-C-D of human capability do ring true. But when it comes to managing organizations I suspect there is more about learning the right tools to operate at a given organizational level, following A-D progression with those tools. But fundamentally it is not more difficult to run Ford as a whole than it is to engineer a new Ford car. It’s different skillsets, both ideally operated with D level competency.

In any event, let’s accept your claim to that Deming et al have an intuitive grasp, level D of systems theory, and you have level C. I don’t see this has a bearing on use of personal time management. You simply need more effort to figure out the next change to the factory operations than they would.
May 3, 2022 at 15:41 | Registered CommenterAlan Baljeu
Aaron: I concur. Simple tasks require simple solutions. Challenging situations with a lot of things to manage require more complex solutions. But those situations can be improved by reworking them to fit a simpler pattern. The most productive are those able to put the least effort into managing operations and thus more effort into operating operations.
May 3, 2022 at 15:46 | Registered CommenterAlan Baljeu
Mark: "Is it actually possible to have a perfect system?"

No. (1 word). But of course there’s no limit to the discussion of the limits of systems.
May 3, 2022 at 15:50 | Registered CommenterAlan Baljeu
The time management system of Bill Gates during those years when he was working on the code himself instead of managing people is known. It was the schedule of the computer labs at his high school and later university. Computing time was expensive in those days and he took what he could to produce his software.

Very soon he already had staff and a schedule. How did he manage that? What scheduling strategies were used to schedule meetings?
May 5, 2022 at 10:56 | Unregistered CommenterChristopher