Discussion Forum > Relationships and Community
I have never worked at a company (private or governmental) where a blanket policy or even expectations on productivity, answering emails, etc. was ever applied.
At work, a couple of friends and I formed our own mastermind group where we met weekly to share productivity strategies, books we were reading (I cited Mark's work a lot), practice public speaking and slide presentations, shared inspiring quotes, etc. It went on for a couple of years and was a really rich time; there was definitely an energy and spirit when we were all engaged in sharing strategies that were helping us in workplace and life. That agrees with Avrum's #1 approach.
As with all things, though, time passes, people move on, the group fell apart, and it still falls to each person to find their own way through the productivity thicket. I practice inbox zero at least weekly; one of my colleagues has 6000+ emails in his inbox. I had been using Remember the Milk for about a year quite successfully, but found myself not referring to it at all the last several months, and am now trying out Seraphim's RTM method.
I still obsess over productivity blogs and tactics, while my wife will make a simple list when she needs to, and then lets everything else go until it's time for her to attend to it. My productivity relationships are now limited to this forum and one of my old mastermind colleagues.
At work, a couple of friends and I formed our own mastermind group where we met weekly to share productivity strategies, books we were reading (I cited Mark's work a lot), practice public speaking and slide presentations, shared inspiring quotes, etc. It went on for a couple of years and was a really rich time; there was definitely an energy and spirit when we were all engaged in sharing strategies that were helping us in workplace and life. That agrees with Avrum's #1 approach.
As with all things, though, time passes, people move on, the group fell apart, and it still falls to each person to find their own way through the productivity thicket. I practice inbox zero at least weekly; one of my colleagues has 6000+ emails in his inbox. I had been using Remember the Milk for about a year quite successfully, but found myself not referring to it at all the last several months, and am now trying out Seraphim's RTM method.
I still obsess over productivity blogs and tactics, while my wife will make a simple list when she needs to, and then lets everything else go until it's time for her to attend to it. My productivity relationships are now limited to this forum and one of my old mastermind colleagues.
October 26, 2023 at 14:38 |
Mike Brown
Mike Brown
@Mike Brown:
You went from one RTM to another! ^_^
You went from one RTM to another! ^_^
October 26, 2023 at 22:45 |
Voluntas
Voluntas
avrum -
Thinking back on my own time-management struggles over the years, I don't think it is community and the relationship aspect that has drawn me to try different systems. I was struggling with my personal time management for at least 15 years before I ran across Mark Forster's works and this forum, and it was a really lonely journey, to be honest.
My manager at my first "real" job thought it would be good for me to take a time-management class, and they mainly taught something like Lakein's ABC-123 system. It was a revelation to me, first that other people also struggled with these things, and second, that they tried to come up with these systems to try to manage them better. But I distinctly remember trying to sort out my tasks into the ABC-123 system on index cards, and my (much older) coworker watching me do that and saying "Yeah I tried something like that once, it never worked for me. I just do whatever my manager yells loudest about."
I listened to Covey's 7 Habits and First Things First audiobooks (on cassette tape!) multiple times. I tried all kinds of different things to help me overcome all the demands on my time, with my new career, growing family, and nascent life-long health issues. I used Planner Pads for several years (they are still around! http://plannerpads.com/ I actually just ordered one to see if I can track my RTM lists in it -- I think my wife could actually go for a system like that).
I did check out a few forums but found them discouraging and unhelpful, until I came across this forum here. This is a pretty special community and unique in many ways, I think. People willing to share their failures as well as their successes -- and so many people very successful in their lives and careers but also clearly "just ordinary people" at the same time. Maybe this says something about the kind of people Mark has been able to attract.
But the community here hasn't made any particular system more "sticky" for me. I've tried far more systems in the almost 15 years since AF1 was introduced than I had ever tried in the previous 15 years. The thing that was different these last 15 years was how much I learned from each of these different systems -- about the fundamental human and logical principles behind time management, as well as about my own strengths and weaknesses.
So while I really enjoy and appreciate the relationship/community factor, I don't think it explains the draw to time management systems or their stickiness.
Thinking back on my own time-management struggles over the years, I don't think it is community and the relationship aspect that has drawn me to try different systems. I was struggling with my personal time management for at least 15 years before I ran across Mark Forster's works and this forum, and it was a really lonely journey, to be honest.
My manager at my first "real" job thought it would be good for me to take a time-management class, and they mainly taught something like Lakein's ABC-123 system. It was a revelation to me, first that other people also struggled with these things, and second, that they tried to come up with these systems to try to manage them better. But I distinctly remember trying to sort out my tasks into the ABC-123 system on index cards, and my (much older) coworker watching me do that and saying "Yeah I tried something like that once, it never worked for me. I just do whatever my manager yells loudest about."
I listened to Covey's 7 Habits and First Things First audiobooks (on cassette tape!) multiple times. I tried all kinds of different things to help me overcome all the demands on my time, with my new career, growing family, and nascent life-long health issues. I used Planner Pads for several years (they are still around! http://plannerpads.com/ I actually just ordered one to see if I can track my RTM lists in it -- I think my wife could actually go for a system like that).
I did check out a few forums but found them discouraging and unhelpful, until I came across this forum here. This is a pretty special community and unique in many ways, I think. People willing to share their failures as well as their successes -- and so many people very successful in their lives and careers but also clearly "just ordinary people" at the same time. Maybe this says something about the kind of people Mark has been able to attract.
But the community here hasn't made any particular system more "sticky" for me. I've tried far more systems in the almost 15 years since AF1 was introduced than I had ever tried in the previous 15 years. The thing that was different these last 15 years was how much I learned from each of these different systems -- about the fundamental human and logical principles behind time management, as well as about my own strengths and weaknesses.
So while I really enjoy and appreciate the relationship/community factor, I don't think it explains the draw to time management systems or their stickiness.
October 27, 2023 at 6:01 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Seraphim:
<<Thinking back on my own time-management struggles over the years, I don't think it is community and the relationship aspect that has drawn me to try different systems.>>
I'm not addressing the internal need for organization and productivity. I'm referring to why people stick with one system (or abandon it) for another. The connection with other people, the desire to fit in with the culture, etc is the stickiness of why someone will stick with GTD for months/years, and why many on this forum will cycle through all of Mark's methods monthly (sometimes weekly).
<<This is a pretty special community and unique in many ways, I think.>>
I agree - we're an odd bunch. But very, very niche. I work with very successful people in my practice - and will inquire how they stay on top of things. No one uses anything more complex than Reminders on their iPhone or sticky notes.
<<But the community here hasn't made any particular system more "sticky" for me.>>
Exactly my point. Online communities - religious, productive, etc - are efficient, but not sticky. To be clear, I don't think it is a problem per se - our very little Forster group seems to enjoy playing with different systems. I'm simply observing that every few months another "one of those" systems is discussed, tweaked, abandoned, for another approach. This is not true of GTD... which has spread to Europe, and is still being taught - in-person - to many people. The same is true for Covey's 7 Habits and Weekly Planning. The staying power of those approaches has less to do with the rules/tools, and more to do with how real people are teaching real people in live seminars how to use the material. And then it becomes part of company culture. Your manager inquires how you're doing with. your A,B,C list, or your "next action" list. Your buddy in the other cubicle talks about their new Moleskine notebook and how they are implementing their Weekly Plan.
Autofocus, DWM, etc never had that type of scaffolding, and why those ideas are, and will remain, extremely niche.
<<Thinking back on my own time-management struggles over the years, I don't think it is community and the relationship aspect that has drawn me to try different systems.>>
I'm not addressing the internal need for organization and productivity. I'm referring to why people stick with one system (or abandon it) for another. The connection with other people, the desire to fit in with the culture, etc is the stickiness of why someone will stick with GTD for months/years, and why many on this forum will cycle through all of Mark's methods monthly (sometimes weekly).
<<This is a pretty special community and unique in many ways, I think.>>
I agree - we're an odd bunch. But very, very niche. I work with very successful people in my practice - and will inquire how they stay on top of things. No one uses anything more complex than Reminders on their iPhone or sticky notes.
<<But the community here hasn't made any particular system more "sticky" for me.>>
Exactly my point. Online communities - religious, productive, etc - are efficient, but not sticky. To be clear, I don't think it is a problem per se - our very little Forster group seems to enjoy playing with different systems. I'm simply observing that every few months another "one of those" systems is discussed, tweaked, abandoned, for another approach. This is not true of GTD... which has spread to Europe, and is still being taught - in-person - to many people. The same is true for Covey's 7 Habits and Weekly Planning. The staying power of those approaches has less to do with the rules/tools, and more to do with how real people are teaching real people in live seminars how to use the material. And then it becomes part of company culture. Your manager inquires how you're doing with. your A,B,C list, or your "next action" list. Your buddy in the other cubicle talks about their new Moleskine notebook and how they are implementing their Weekly Plan.
Autofocus, DWM, etc never had that type of scaffolding, and why those ideas are, and will remain, extremely niche.
October 27, 2023 at 13:36 |
avrum
avrum
20 years ago, I told my boss about GTD. He made me give a presentation to the whole department about it. The only real effect was a bunch of people got blank folders to put on their filing cabinet because I pointed out that you were much more likely to file things right away if you did that. A couple people bought the book.
October 27, 2023 at 19:54 |
Don R
Don R
Don - pretty much what I would expect. However if your boss purchased a 3 day workshop from the David Allen Co, where attendance was mandatory, I think the numbers would be much higher.
October 27, 2023 at 22:01 |
avrum
avrum
avrum -
Thanks for elaborating and clarifying -- you make a lot of great points!
A lot of my professional work has dealt with organizational change, and the stickiness of that change. This is a hugely interesting topic for me. It is really interesting to consider time management systems and methods within that context.
I also know a large number of TOC and Lean practitioners who continually complain how, as soon as the TOC or Lean leader / consultant departs, everything goes back to how it had been done previously. It might take 6 months or a year, but it just all goes back to the previous inertia, and all the great benefits of TOC and Lean are lost.
It is difficult to get these things to "stick" unless a whole company culture is built around them and the principles are baked into everyday routines that reinforce them -- at the process level, the reporting level, but also at the C-level. And especially, all the company financial incentives and measurements need to be aligned with these changes. Otherwise, those financial measurements will trump everything and pull the company back to whatever it was doing previously -- back to the inertia inherent in those traditional, non-TOC, non-Lean financial measurements.
So yes, it is very interesting to consider how time management practices are reinforced by community and social dynamics.
This started me thinking... how and why would I want to roll out a set of time management practices across an organization?
Putting on my TOC hat, I think there are only a few circumstances where personal time management is actually the constraint of a company. Usually the constraint is in one department or resource -- manufacturing, marketing, engineering, support, supply chain, something like that. Improving all employee time management would not directly address the constraint. It might bring marginal benefits but probably not a breakthrough level of improvement.
However, most companies who follow a TOC model address their bottlenecks / constraints systematically, and try to move them to where they SHOULD be. (There will always be a bottleneck, so it's important to decide strategically where to place it.)
And the ultimate bottleneck is the attention of the executive management team.
If they are overcommitted, overwhelmed, distracted, unfocused, conflicted, etc., it will pull their own attention in multiple conflicting directions -- and drag the whole company along with them as they sort those things out. Many small business owners and their management teams fall into this kind of a problem.
In corporate IT, I ran into this problem in almost every project that I led. The problem was never with the effectiveness of the development teams. The problem was always VP- or director-level stakeholders who could not agree among themselves on the strategic direction. An IT VP would have one vision for how to solve a problem, and the VP on the business side would have a competing vision, and the conflict between these visions would put hundreds of people through all kinds of thrash and frustration.
So, if the ultimate bottleneck for a company is the executive management attention, isn't that exactly what time management systems are actually trying to solve? These systems are designed to guide us in the most effective use of our time and attention.
This dovetails really well with something I've been exploring with RTM -- how it could be used with executive management teams to coordinate work for the whole company. It follows the same principles as RTM for individuals:
-- limiting WIP to keep us focused and aligned -- getting stuff completed and delivering value
-- queuing up new ideas and potential projects, but limiting what we start, so we don't have too much WIP going at the same time
-- recurring routines and systems -- the operational overhead that keeps the company running
So I will have to explore this some more. Your explanations made it really clear to me that this is an organizational change management process just like any other -- and it could be extremely valuable for organizations if done right. Thank you!
Thanks for elaborating and clarifying -- you make a lot of great points!
A lot of my professional work has dealt with organizational change, and the stickiness of that change. This is a hugely interesting topic for me. It is really interesting to consider time management systems and methods within that context.
I also know a large number of TOC and Lean practitioners who continually complain how, as soon as the TOC or Lean leader / consultant departs, everything goes back to how it had been done previously. It might take 6 months or a year, but it just all goes back to the previous inertia, and all the great benefits of TOC and Lean are lost.
It is difficult to get these things to "stick" unless a whole company culture is built around them and the principles are baked into everyday routines that reinforce them -- at the process level, the reporting level, but also at the C-level. And especially, all the company financial incentives and measurements need to be aligned with these changes. Otherwise, those financial measurements will trump everything and pull the company back to whatever it was doing previously -- back to the inertia inherent in those traditional, non-TOC, non-Lean financial measurements.
So yes, it is very interesting to consider how time management practices are reinforced by community and social dynamics.
This started me thinking... how and why would I want to roll out a set of time management practices across an organization?
Putting on my TOC hat, I think there are only a few circumstances where personal time management is actually the constraint of a company. Usually the constraint is in one department or resource -- manufacturing, marketing, engineering, support, supply chain, something like that. Improving all employee time management would not directly address the constraint. It might bring marginal benefits but probably not a breakthrough level of improvement.
However, most companies who follow a TOC model address their bottlenecks / constraints systematically, and try to move them to where they SHOULD be. (There will always be a bottleneck, so it's important to decide strategically where to place it.)
And the ultimate bottleneck is the attention of the executive management team.
If they are overcommitted, overwhelmed, distracted, unfocused, conflicted, etc., it will pull their own attention in multiple conflicting directions -- and drag the whole company along with them as they sort those things out. Many small business owners and their management teams fall into this kind of a problem.
In corporate IT, I ran into this problem in almost every project that I led. The problem was never with the effectiveness of the development teams. The problem was always VP- or director-level stakeholders who could not agree among themselves on the strategic direction. An IT VP would have one vision for how to solve a problem, and the VP on the business side would have a competing vision, and the conflict between these visions would put hundreds of people through all kinds of thrash and frustration.
So, if the ultimate bottleneck for a company is the executive management attention, isn't that exactly what time management systems are actually trying to solve? These systems are designed to guide us in the most effective use of our time and attention.
This dovetails really well with something I've been exploring with RTM -- how it could be used with executive management teams to coordinate work for the whole company. It follows the same principles as RTM for individuals:
-- limiting WIP to keep us focused and aligned -- getting stuff completed and delivering value
-- queuing up new ideas and potential projects, but limiting what we start, so we don't have too much WIP going at the same time
-- recurring routines and systems -- the operational overhead that keeps the company running
So I will have to explore this some more. Your explanations made it really clear to me that this is an organizational change management process just like any other -- and it could be extremely valuable for organizations if done right. Thank you!
October 31, 2023 at 4:42 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
During the heyday of productivity (80s/90s) you learned a productivity system at work - a la Covey/7 Habits. You were provided with a notebook. You DID the system with your colleagues and work friends. The rules and habits were part of the culture. You likely stuck with the system for the same reasons you wore a tie to work, or gossiped at the water cooler. During meetings with your supervisor, you were both doing Weekly Planning a la 7 Habits (or GTD).
Now, most systems are adopted online - via YouTube, blogs (Cal Newport), forums (Forster), and Reddit. The community aspect is often anonymous and less sticky. You don't have any skin in the game. So the human propensity for novelty leads one to be much more promiscuous with changing systems whenever we get anxious, bored, etc. We (erroneously) think a new tool or system will make us feel better, more organized, etc, but without the intimacy of a relationship, it's fleeting.
I'm thinking there's two solid approaches to sticking with one system:
1. Create a system, post it publicly, and teach. There's a community aspect to that, and the social pressure to not abandon the thing that has some follower creates fidelity to your own rules.
2. Adopt the system your company embraces. Though I'm not sure that happens all that much anymore. My wife works at a large hospital - I don't think she's ever had a productivity consultant run a workshop a la GTD.