Discussion Forum > DWM - Theory good, practice not so good
If I read you right, you are hapy with what you're doing now, which appears to follow the skeleton of DWM, but without the mechanical cycling. Is that right?
Regarding the paper/digital divide I'm with you. Regarding the other points, are these current or past concerns? If current, I think we here could come up with advice to get DWM or AF work better for you; addressing your complaints. But if you are satisfied there's no reason to try.
Thanks for sharing.
Regarding the paper/digital divide I'm with you. Regarding the other points, are these current or past concerns? If current, I think we here could come up with advice to get DWM or AF work better for you; addressing your complaints. But if you are satisfied there's no reason to try.
Thanks for sharing.
April 14, 2010 at 2:50 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
"you are hapy with... DWM, but without the mechanical cycling"
Yes.
"But if you are satisfied there's no reason to try"
Satisfied. Still, thanks.
Yes.
"But if you are satisfied there's no reason to try"
Satisfied. Still, thanks.
April 14, 2010 at 3:47 |
RF
RF
One trick I have learned to reduce anxiety is to treat each day, each page as separate list in AF4.
That is, EXCEPT for the 7th day page (where recurrent tasks are logged) and the 30th day page (where new tasks are entered), treat EACH page as you would a closed BACKLOG LIST in AF4, and the 7th day and 30th day pages as open ACTIVE LISTS. Plagiarizing from Mark's blog post on AF4 instructions (http://www.markforster.net/blog/2009/9/5/preliminary-instructions-for-autofocus-v-4.html), the instructions would be:
1) When you are in a page aside from those of the 7th and 30th day pages, look through the tasks in order and work on any tasks which feel ready to be done. Delete each task when you feel you have worked on it for long enough, and re-enter it at the end of the 7th day list if you need to do more work on it.
2) When you come to the end of the list for that day, do not go into the next day. Instead return to the beginning of the list on that same day and continue to move through it in it doing any tasks which feel ready to be done. Keep circulating in this way, until you have done a complete pass through the page without any tasks being done.
3) You can now go to the next day/page. As long as it is not the 7th day or 30th day page, process the task list in that page as above.
4) When you reach either the 7th day or 30th day page, run through the task list in order working on any tasks which feel ready to be done; BUT, when you reach the end of the list of tasks on that page, GO TO THE NEXT PAGE/DAY, and repeat from step 1.
Now the advantage of this is that you focus on one list at a time---a list that gets smaller and smaller the more often you run through it---thus reducing your (my? ^____^) anxiety levels.
I hope this helps you, RF.
That is, EXCEPT for the 7th day page (where recurrent tasks are logged) and the 30th day page (where new tasks are entered), treat EACH page as you would a closed BACKLOG LIST in AF4, and the 7th day and 30th day pages as open ACTIVE LISTS. Plagiarizing from Mark's blog post on AF4 instructions (http://www.markforster.net/blog/2009/9/5/preliminary-instructions-for-autofocus-v-4.html), the instructions would be:
1) When you are in a page aside from those of the 7th and 30th day pages, look through the tasks in order and work on any tasks which feel ready to be done. Delete each task when you feel you have worked on it for long enough, and re-enter it at the end of the 7th day list if you need to do more work on it.
2) When you come to the end of the list for that day, do not go into the next day. Instead return to the beginning of the list on that same day and continue to move through it in it doing any tasks which feel ready to be done. Keep circulating in this way, until you have done a complete pass through the page without any tasks being done.
3) You can now go to the next day/page. As long as it is not the 7th day or 30th day page, process the task list in that page as above.
4) When you reach either the 7th day or 30th day page, run through the task list in order working on any tasks which feel ready to be done; BUT, when you reach the end of the list of tasks on that page, GO TO THE NEXT PAGE/DAY, and repeat from step 1.
Now the advantage of this is that you focus on one list at a time---a list that gets smaller and smaller the more often you run through it---thus reducing your (my? ^____^) anxiety levels.
I hope this helps you, RF.
April 16, 2010 at 20:50 |
nuntym
nuntym
Hmm, the link did not come out right. Here it is again:
http://www.markforster.net/blog/2009/9/5/preliminary-instructions-for-autofocus-v-4.html
http://www.markforster.net/blog/2009/9/5/preliminary-instructions-for-autofocus-v-4.html
April 16, 2010 at 20:50 |
nuntym
nuntym
nuntym, sounds interesting but also confusing. I suspect your words inadvertently contradict themselves. Can I try again?
Loop page 1 until nothing stands out.
Loop page 2 until nothing stands out.
Same for 3,4,5,6,7.
Scan page 8 (W) once only.
Loop each of the pages 9-30.
Scan page 31 (M) once only.
Could work, but I doubt it will convince RF. RF's complaint was about all AFs being too mechanical, and I don't see how a new mechanic will make her happy.
Loop page 1 until nothing stands out.
Loop page 2 until nothing stands out.
Same for 3,4,5,6,7.
Scan page 8 (W) once only.
Loop each of the pages 9-30.
Scan page 31 (M) once only.
Could work, but I doubt it will convince RF. RF's complaint was about all AFs being too mechanical, and I don't see how a new mechanic will make her happy.
April 17, 2010 at 15:09 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
"I have learned to reduce anxiety"
It's not about reducing anxiety. I find Mark's philosophy counter productive to creativity and large goal thinking. I'd end my day, with much done, but with a general feeling that it was all minutiae, and not tied to my deeper values, interests.
How odd that in 2010 I'm back to using S. Covey's philosophy to focus my day, with DWM to keep the entire system on track.
It's not about reducing anxiety. I find Mark's philosophy counter productive to creativity and large goal thinking. I'd end my day, with much done, but with a general feeling that it was all minutiae, and not tied to my deeper values, interests.
How odd that in 2010 I'm back to using S. Covey's philosophy to focus my day, with DWM to keep the entire system on track.
April 17, 2010 at 15:21 |
RF
RF
RF, I do agree with you, although I'm a daily / weekly list kind of person, not using DWM. I think Alan Lakein hit on a good point here:
"Most people operate in the mid-range of mediocrity, in the hours or days. They don't think in terms of minutes - the little chunks most time comes in. They waste all the minutes. Nor do they think in terms of years or their whole life, so essentially they start all over every week, and spend another chunk unrelated to their lifetime goals. They are doing a random walk through life, moving without getting anywhere."
http://books.google.ca/books?id=O-cCAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA24&lpg=PA24&dq=goals+focus+%22alan+lakein%22&source=bl&ots=J1FtCLcHBR&sig=nMXsLtdpFO96uMl5y2aDlZ8Q-gI&hl=en&ei=GQDKS67dHo32sQP3o4XyCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CA4Q6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=goals%20focus%20%22alan%20lakein%22&f=false
Right now, I'm focusing on the longer term perspective more and more and it might be kind of uncomfortable at times, but it's much more motivating to me to do things that I know I'll be happy 10 years from now that I did them today.
That's one of my questions / filters that I use as you use yours above: "Will this matter 10 years from now?" to filter out some of the useless activities. And to look at it from the other direction as well of "What can I do today that will make a difference in my life 10 years from now?"
"Most people operate in the mid-range of mediocrity, in the hours or days. They don't think in terms of minutes - the little chunks most time comes in. They waste all the minutes. Nor do they think in terms of years or their whole life, so essentially they start all over every week, and spend another chunk unrelated to their lifetime goals. They are doing a random walk through life, moving without getting anywhere."
http://books.google.ca/books?id=O-cCAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA24&lpg=PA24&dq=goals+focus+%22alan+lakein%22&source=bl&ots=J1FtCLcHBR&sig=nMXsLtdpFO96uMl5y2aDlZ8Q-gI&hl=en&ei=GQDKS67dHo32sQP3o4XyCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CA4Q6AEwAzgK#v=onepage&q=goals%20focus%20%22alan%20lakein%22&f=false
Right now, I'm focusing on the longer term perspective more and more and it might be kind of uncomfortable at times, but it's much more motivating to me to do things that I know I'll be happy 10 years from now that I did them today.
That's one of my questions / filters that I use as you use yours above: "Will this matter 10 years from now?" to filter out some of the useless activities. And to look at it from the other direction as well of "What can I do today that will make a difference in my life 10 years from now?"
April 17, 2010 at 20:21 |
Jacqueline
Jacqueline
Very interesting that so many of us are moving slowly away from the general "standing out" idea. My "AF" system has now become my old grass catcher system, with the AF dismissal rules loosely applied (but not the processing rules).
The more I think on it, Lakein had it closest to right for me. It ironic... that it is where I started, so many years ago. I learned at least one good idea from each of the other writers, but the core of my system is goal setting, and prioritizing tasks leading to those goals.
As to those small splinters of time. I recently saw that Toodledo has, in its paid version, a function to help with that. Presuming that you give an accurate duration to your tasks, you can tell it how much time you have and it will give you a list of tasks to exactly fill up that time (based on priority, due date, etc.) Pretty neat. I may wind up sending them a check soon. LOL ;-)
As to DWM, today I ripped out the last vestiges of it from my system. I removed "due date" from all tasks in Toodledo except those for which a due date was appropriate. I'm starting to rethink all of the "attributes" I place on tasks. Tags, contexts, project identifies, start date, end date, duration, etc. My overarching principle is that they must be "honest". Giving a task an arbitrary due date one month hence is not "honest", in the same way that setting one's watch ahead by five minutes to avoid lateness is not "honest". I believe that we have to deal with what is and come to terms with it. If a problem needs to be solved, then it needs to be solved in a way that preserves the integrity of one's view of the universe. If you are prone to be late, work on how you estimate time, don't fudge the clock. If you want to manage tasks, learn how to correctly prioritize, don't assign an arbitrary due date and then keep another calender so as to know what the REAL deadlines are!
So I am rethinking all of these attributes. Ex. A thing is "important" only if it really is. Importance (priority) is not just a way to sort tasks. A due date is the date something is really DUE .. not just the date that I'd like to have it done by. That kind of thing.
In any case, I've got more thinking to do before I have it all under control but I feel so much better that I am now using my AF book for what it is best at ... a grass catcher for all of those trivial things that don't relate to my big goals and projects. It is great for managing my remembering that I'm out of cottage cheese, but not so good helping with my life's goals. Those are all in a system that I use to manage them by priority and scheduled blocks of time.
The more I think on it, Lakein had it closest to right for me. It ironic... that it is where I started, so many years ago. I learned at least one good idea from each of the other writers, but the core of my system is goal setting, and prioritizing tasks leading to those goals.
As to those small splinters of time. I recently saw that Toodledo has, in its paid version, a function to help with that. Presuming that you give an accurate duration to your tasks, you can tell it how much time you have and it will give you a list of tasks to exactly fill up that time (based on priority, due date, etc.) Pretty neat. I may wind up sending them a check soon. LOL ;-)
As to DWM, today I ripped out the last vestiges of it from my system. I removed "due date" from all tasks in Toodledo except those for which a due date was appropriate. I'm starting to rethink all of the "attributes" I place on tasks. Tags, contexts, project identifies, start date, end date, duration, etc. My overarching principle is that they must be "honest". Giving a task an arbitrary due date one month hence is not "honest", in the same way that setting one's watch ahead by five minutes to avoid lateness is not "honest". I believe that we have to deal with what is and come to terms with it. If a problem needs to be solved, then it needs to be solved in a way that preserves the integrity of one's view of the universe. If you are prone to be late, work on how you estimate time, don't fudge the clock. If you want to manage tasks, learn how to correctly prioritize, don't assign an arbitrary due date and then keep another calender so as to know what the REAL deadlines are!
So I am rethinking all of these attributes. Ex. A thing is "important" only if it really is. Importance (priority) is not just a way to sort tasks. A due date is the date something is really DUE .. not just the date that I'd like to have it done by. That kind of thing.
In any case, I've got more thinking to do before I have it all under control but I feel so much better that I am now using my AF book for what it is best at ... a grass catcher for all of those trivial things that don't relate to my big goals and projects. It is great for managing my remembering that I'm out of cottage cheese, but not so good helping with my life's goals. Those are all in a system that I use to manage them by priority and scheduled blocks of time.
April 17, 2010 at 22:47 |
Mike
Mike
Mike wrote:
<<<Very interesting that so many of us are moving slowly away from the general "standing out" idea.>>>
FWIW, I still use the "standing out" idea, all the time. It's become second nature. AFx did tend to focus my attention on minutiae, while the 10-year-goal items got neglected. DWM has helped with that problem tremendously, but it can still be an issue sometimes.
Peter Knight's system is helping to address this even further (http://www.markforster.net/forum/post/1063260#post1067918). I populate one or two "compartments" with the big-rock items. They are usually at the front of my mind already, but if nothing comes to mind immediately, I can scan through the DWM list to find what "stands out" as a "big rock". I also make sure to put "Work DWM list" in one of the compartments.
I've been doing this for a few days and like how it feels. I've always had the framework of my daily schedule, meetings, and so on, and would work DWM in my discretionary time. Peter's system just gives a bit more useful structure to that overall framework, and it's working out quite nicely.
But to get back to Mike's comment, I have found myself using the "standing out" idea in many different ways... If I don't have time to clear my inbox, I will just scan the emails till one "stands out". Previously I would scan all of them, then go back and cherry pick. It's just a lot faster to go with the first ones that "stand out". Same with choosing items off a menu, choosing a book or magazine to read, and so on.
It is so much more efficient to choose the first one that stands out, rather than look at all the possibilities and evaluate more thoroughly. Online shopping is a good example of where I've saved lots of time using the "standing out" method. I used to hunt across Amazon and Google Shopping to find the absolutely best deal for an item, might spend an hour doing that! Good grief, what a waste of time, when most of these items cost less than $20 or $30, and the most I am saving by choosing the optimal vendor is a few dollars. Choosing the very first vendor with a reasonable price, reasonable shipping, and reasonable customer ratings has saved me so much time and hassle.
Norman Norman Norman (Just adding a few search keywords here for all you folks using the Norman script, LOL!)
<<<Very interesting that so many of us are moving slowly away from the general "standing out" idea.>>>
FWIW, I still use the "standing out" idea, all the time. It's become second nature. AFx did tend to focus my attention on minutiae, while the 10-year-goal items got neglected. DWM has helped with that problem tremendously, but it can still be an issue sometimes.
Peter Knight's system is helping to address this even further (http://www.markforster.net/forum/post/1063260#post1067918). I populate one or two "compartments" with the big-rock items. They are usually at the front of my mind already, but if nothing comes to mind immediately, I can scan through the DWM list to find what "stands out" as a "big rock". I also make sure to put "Work DWM list" in one of the compartments.
I've been doing this for a few days and like how it feels. I've always had the framework of my daily schedule, meetings, and so on, and would work DWM in my discretionary time. Peter's system just gives a bit more useful structure to that overall framework, and it's working out quite nicely.
But to get back to Mike's comment, I have found myself using the "standing out" idea in many different ways... If I don't have time to clear my inbox, I will just scan the emails till one "stands out". Previously I would scan all of them, then go back and cherry pick. It's just a lot faster to go with the first ones that "stand out". Same with choosing items off a menu, choosing a book or magazine to read, and so on.
It is so much more efficient to choose the first one that stands out, rather than look at all the possibilities and evaluate more thoroughly. Online shopping is a good example of where I've saved lots of time using the "standing out" method. I used to hunt across Amazon and Google Shopping to find the absolutely best deal for an item, might spend an hour doing that! Good grief, what a waste of time, when most of these items cost less than $20 or $30, and the most I am saving by choosing the optimal vendor is a few dollars. Choosing the very first vendor with a reasonable price, reasonable shipping, and reasonable customer ratings has saved me so much time and hassle.
Norman Norman Norman (Just adding a few search keywords here for all you folks using the Norman script, LOL!)
April 17, 2010 at 23:37 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
<<As to those small splinters of time. I recently saw that Toodledo has, in its paid version, a function to help with that. Presuming that you give an accurate duration to your tasks, you can tell it how much time you have and it will give you a list of tasks to exactly fill up that time (based on priority, due date, etc.)>>
Too funny Mike - today I wrote myself and my son a list of jobs to get done on the house this week. I had them broken out into categories of: 2 hours+, ~ 1 hour, and "short" (15 minutes or so). But you can go ahead and spend the cash. :-)
Seraphim, I too think Peter's system would work well in conjunction with AFx or DWM. The reason why I know that is because it's not that much different from my A / C system that everyone hated so much because I used to compartmentalize it just like that.
Re. the 10 year perspective, I find that it really makes me think about things. In 10 years, will I be happy that I exercised today? Yes. Will I be happy that I took the time to play a game of cards with my son? Absolutely. Will I be happy that I worked 15 hour days and burnt myself out? Absolutely not. Will I be happy that I read a trashy novel? Probably not.
Too funny Mike - today I wrote myself and my son a list of jobs to get done on the house this week. I had them broken out into categories of: 2 hours+, ~ 1 hour, and "short" (15 minutes or so). But you can go ahead and spend the cash. :-)
Seraphim, I too think Peter's system would work well in conjunction with AFx or DWM. The reason why I know that is because it's not that much different from my A / C system that everyone hated so much because I used to compartmentalize it just like that.
Re. the 10 year perspective, I find that it really makes me think about things. In 10 years, will I be happy that I exercised today? Yes. Will I be happy that I took the time to play a game of cards with my son? Absolutely. Will I be happy that I worked 15 hour days and burnt myself out? Absolutely not. Will I be happy that I read a trashy novel? Probably not.
April 18, 2010 at 3:02 |
Jacqueline
Jacqueline
Re. the 10 year perspective
On a # of other productivity blogs, the authors discuss daily/weekly themes. For example: This week will focus on learning CSS script. Anything longer than a week seems too far reaching IMHO.
On a # of other productivity blogs, the authors discuss daily/weekly themes. For example: This week will focus on learning CSS script. Anything longer than a week seems too far reaching IMHO.
April 18, 2010 at 3:53 |
RF
RF
Perspective is important. Knowing what's around to do, AF4 gives me that. It also solves that last-in first-out bug that's in our psyche: the most recent thing seems most important.
But I think it's not quite enough. We also benefit from understanding the big picture. What are my goals and how can I achieve them? Thinking about such regularly changes which items stand out when you go through the list.
So for me, Think About Goals is on my list. I may get down and draw some diagrams charting how I can achieve something. I'll set achievable week-long goals and keep a visible reminder, on the list. I may then put goal-related tasks on my list. Then I'll go through my list, pay bills, skip Guiding Light (Coronation Street) and a dozen other items, and then spend significant time on a goal related task.
In summation: I do what stands out. Reviewing goals and working towards goals are 2 things that consistently do. These items also alter my thought patterns and change what other things stand out, for the better.
But I think it's not quite enough. We also benefit from understanding the big picture. What are my goals and how can I achieve them? Thinking about such regularly changes which items stand out when you go through the list.
So for me, Think About Goals is on my list. I may get down and draw some diagrams charting how I can achieve something. I'll set achievable week-long goals and keep a visible reminder, on the list. I may then put goal-related tasks on my list. Then I'll go through my list, pay bills, skip Guiding Light (Coronation Street) and a dozen other items, and then spend significant time on a goal related task.
In summation: I do what stands out. Reviewing goals and working towards goals are 2 things that consistently do. These items also alter my thought patterns and change what other things stand out, for the better.
April 18, 2010 at 4:26 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
RF, I would consider a daily or weekly focus to be small projects/milestones or tasks - at the most very mini-goals, not real goals. And what you focus on this week or today should have some correlation to where you want to be down the road in 10 years - or even 6 months or a year, or you're doing a random walk through life.
Of course goals are far reaching. That's why most people don't spend the time on them. And that's why they often don't get where they really want to go - because they don't know where that is. I'd hate to work at a company that didn't have a long term perspective.
Having said that, what you have to focus on is what you'll actually do today or this week to move towards some vision and put the long haul temporarily aside. People don't do major stuff like start a company, write a book, run a marathon, get an MBA or plan for retirement without having a longer term perspective. It doesn't mean you're not flexible or you don't adjust along the way or do what you can today to work towards that end.
I liked this article by Jason Fried of 37signals for Inc.
"Tomorrow. Eventually. Next quarter. Next year. Five years from now. Exit strategy. Throw these words away. They don't matter. Today is all you have in business. Tomorrow is just today again. Next week? Seven todays in a row. A month isn't 30 days. It's 30 todays.
I'm not suggesting you stop thinking about the future. I'm telling you to stop stressing about it. Go on, get lazy."
http://www.inc.com/magazine/20100401/driven-to-distraction.html
Of course goals are far reaching. That's why most people don't spend the time on them. And that's why they often don't get where they really want to go - because they don't know where that is. I'd hate to work at a company that didn't have a long term perspective.
Having said that, what you have to focus on is what you'll actually do today or this week to move towards some vision and put the long haul temporarily aside. People don't do major stuff like start a company, write a book, run a marathon, get an MBA or plan for retirement without having a longer term perspective. It doesn't mean you're not flexible or you don't adjust along the way or do what you can today to work towards that end.
I liked this article by Jason Fried of 37signals for Inc.
"Tomorrow. Eventually. Next quarter. Next year. Five years from now. Exit strategy. Throw these words away. They don't matter. Today is all you have in business. Tomorrow is just today again. Next week? Seven todays in a row. A month isn't 30 days. It's 30 todays.
I'm not suggesting you stop thinking about the future. I'm telling you to stop stressing about it. Go on, get lazy."
http://www.inc.com/magazine/20100401/driven-to-distraction.html
April 18, 2010 at 6:04 |
Jacqueline
Jacqueline
"Happiness" is nebulous and overrated and usually associated with a "feeling" of some sort if you are able to possibly figure out anything anyone means when talking about it.
Thinking that you can possibly imagine how what you do today will impact a momentary feeling in the future is pretty high up on the level of hubris, especially 10 years out.
People who write for productivity columns probably haven't thought much about temporality and how things like the "past", "now", and "future" are related. So I really don't take them too seriously.
In ten years, you have no idea what you will remember today. Maybe when you exercise today, you fall and are paralyzed. Maybe in ten years you will regret that. Maybe being paralyzed will draw you closer to someone in your life and you will treasure that moment later. Most likely you will have confused and compound thoughts and feelings about just everything that happens.
I reject this whole looking at the now in the light of the future or your deathbed as if it were some authentic guide to life.
What you value on your deathbed is what you will value on your deathbed. To think that fantasizing about that moment now will change the drama of the life lived before then is the stuff of TV and Hollywood.
I have seen and have experienced deathbed conversions and revelations only to watch the day to day reclaim its hold on the person after being spared their death. Being on the chopping block and getting serious with that experience didn't change my plans a lot, but more how I relate to them and the world.
Is watching Fox News and wanting to strangle the talking head the height of human experience? I dunno anymore. There is this, then that. Its all part of the world as I am. Forcing life and the world into "goals" and fantasies just seems really tedious for the most part and unnecessary anymore.
Does that mean that one does not live without goals? Of course not, I cannot imagine how one could. The future if nothing else conditions our existence more than anything. For me, it is how seriously I take those plans and fantasies.
The world and God have one helluva a sense of humor (if most on this board do not) especially when it comes to my plans. An artery goes burst, an earthquake buries me under rubble, a traffic accident causes me to be late to a "very important" interview . . .
AF helps me to have a more and more realistic relationship to what I want and would plan and how the world would have me.
Marathons, retirement, advanced degrees, etc. are not necessarily what the world wants, no matter how much we protest.
And yes laziness is a virtue.
Thinking that you can possibly imagine how what you do today will impact a momentary feeling in the future is pretty high up on the level of hubris, especially 10 years out.
People who write for productivity columns probably haven't thought much about temporality and how things like the "past", "now", and "future" are related. So I really don't take them too seriously.
In ten years, you have no idea what you will remember today. Maybe when you exercise today, you fall and are paralyzed. Maybe in ten years you will regret that. Maybe being paralyzed will draw you closer to someone in your life and you will treasure that moment later. Most likely you will have confused and compound thoughts and feelings about just everything that happens.
I reject this whole looking at the now in the light of the future or your deathbed as if it were some authentic guide to life.
What you value on your deathbed is what you will value on your deathbed. To think that fantasizing about that moment now will change the drama of the life lived before then is the stuff of TV and Hollywood.
I have seen and have experienced deathbed conversions and revelations only to watch the day to day reclaim its hold on the person after being spared their death. Being on the chopping block and getting serious with that experience didn't change my plans a lot, but more how I relate to them and the world.
Is watching Fox News and wanting to strangle the talking head the height of human experience? I dunno anymore. There is this, then that. Its all part of the world as I am. Forcing life and the world into "goals" and fantasies just seems really tedious for the most part and unnecessary anymore.
Does that mean that one does not live without goals? Of course not, I cannot imagine how one could. The future if nothing else conditions our existence more than anything. For me, it is how seriously I take those plans and fantasies.
The world and God have one helluva a sense of humor (if most on this board do not) especially when it comes to my plans. An artery goes burst, an earthquake buries me under rubble, a traffic accident causes me to be late to a "very important" interview . . .
AF helps me to have a more and more realistic relationship to what I want and would plan and how the world would have me.
Marathons, retirement, advanced degrees, etc. are not necessarily what the world wants, no matter how much we protest.
And yes laziness is a virtue.
April 18, 2010 at 7:02 |
Norman U.
Norman U.
Jaqueline wrote:
<Re. the 10 year perspective, I find that it really makes me think about things. In 10 years, will I be happy that I exercised today? Yes. Will I be happy that I took the time to play a game of cards with my son? Absolutely.>
Agree, the way I see it is to: Do the things today that you'll value tomorrow (ie in future), but value the things today that you did yesterday (ie in the past).
That way we're not living for today, but not living purely for a tomorrow that may never come either.
<Re. the 10 year perspective, I find that it really makes me think about things. In 10 years, will I be happy that I exercised today? Yes. Will I be happy that I took the time to play a game of cards with my son? Absolutely.>
Agree, the way I see it is to: Do the things today that you'll value tomorrow (ie in future), but value the things today that you did yesterday (ie in the past).
That way we're not living for today, but not living purely for a tomorrow that may never come either.
April 18, 2010 at 10:11 |
smileypete
smileypete
Where are the buffoons who claim that Mark's forum is trivial when you need them? LOL ;-)
>>> Re. the 10 year perspective
On a # of other productivity blogs, the authors discuss daily/weekly themes. For example: This week will focus on learning CSS script. Anything longer than a week seems too far reaching IMHO. >>>
I would ask how big your aspirations are? Your time horizon needs to be exactly as large as needed to accomplish your largest goal. If all you want to do is learn a new scripting language, then a week's focus is surely adequate. But if what you are aiming to accomplish is to become an outstanding computer programmer, you need to look ahead more than one week. Other things that take more than a weeks horizon:
- Becoming and staying healthy
- Educating yourself in the Western Canon
- Learning a new language
- Mastering the performance of a sport or musical instrument
Sure, you can chunk it down to a weeks horizon ... and I recommend that you DO. But you must FIRST have the long term goal to guide your selection of what you will do this week.
>>> Re. the 10 year perspective
On a # of other productivity blogs, the authors discuss daily/weekly themes. For example: This week will focus on learning CSS script. Anything longer than a week seems too far reaching IMHO. >>>
I would ask how big your aspirations are? Your time horizon needs to be exactly as large as needed to accomplish your largest goal. If all you want to do is learn a new scripting language, then a week's focus is surely adequate. But if what you are aiming to accomplish is to become an outstanding computer programmer, you need to look ahead more than one week. Other things that take more than a weeks horizon:
- Becoming and staying healthy
- Educating yourself in the Western Canon
- Learning a new language
- Mastering the performance of a sport or musical instrument
Sure, you can chunk it down to a weeks horizon ... and I recommend that you DO. But you must FIRST have the long term goal to guide your selection of what you will do this week.
April 18, 2010 at 10:59 |
Mike
Mike
Ah Norman, yet another one of your off-topic posts, I see ;-)
>>> "Happiness" is nebulous and overrated and usually associated with a "feeling" of some sort if you are able to possibly figure out anything anyone means when talking about it. <<<
Well, how is that observation relevant? We all know what the feeling is that we want ... who cares what it is called or how we define it or what we can prove about it in a lab? I mean, we could debate terms like fun, joy, pleasure, happiness, etc. until the cows come home. But why does that suggest that we should not do what we like?
>>> Thinking that you can possibly imagine how what you do today will impact a momentary feeling in the future is pretty high up on the level of hubris, especially 10 years out. <<<
Do you not agree that it makes sense to learn from the experiences of others? If others tell me that when they reached the "end" what made a difference to them was X, Y, and Z. And those "others" amount to a lot of people ... why would I not decide that I might reasonably expect to feel much the same way?
>>> People who write for productivity columns probably haven't thought much about temporality and how things like the "past", "now", and "future" are related. So I really don't take them too seriously. <<<
I don't take them seriously simply because they are mostly kids trying to become rich writing blogs ... and have no experience of their own to call upon.
>>> In ten years, you have no idea what you will remember today. Maybe when you exercise today, you fall and are paralyzed. Maybe in ten years you will regret that. Maybe being paralyzed will draw you closer to someone in your life and you will treasure that moment later. Most likely you will have confused and compound thoughts and feelings about just everything that happens. <<<
Yes, one can hardly argue with the old parable about the farmer's son. But one MUST make SOME choice and once that is understood, it comes down to deciding the best method to make the choice. If one then looks to the experiences of others (assuming you don't believe that you are best advised to learn everything from scratch) one gets a pretty universal agreement that some things will be regretted and some not so much.
>>> I reject this whole looking at the now in the light of the future or your deathbed as if it were some authentic guide to life. <<<
I'm not sure anyone said it was "an authentic guide to life". I think it was more of a "cautionary tale". I mean what is the character of the advice? Is it: "Be sure to bet your birthday in the lottery every week?" (I agree that some people have said that but it is not the kind of advice most of us consider valuable.) Or is it more along the lines of: "How you treat others will form how you evaluate the success of your life at the end." (Maybe that sounds right, maybe not, but many have said that kind of thing so there is likely to be some truth to it.) Or is it: "If you work more hours and neglect enjoying yourself, your family, and your friends, you'll regret it." (Something that makes so much sense on the face of it that we scarcely need to question it.
>>> What you value on your deathbed is what you will value on your deathbed. To think that fantasizing about that moment now will change the drama of the life lived before then is the stuff of TV and Hollywood. <<<
But I can't imagine that is true. On your deathbed, if you have the time to reflect at all, it will be on what you DID or DID NOT do. And the choice you make today will make up part of that collection of things done or not done. And obviously, to me at east, thinking about that and making a CHOICE based on that will IN FACT change how I live my life.
>>> I have seen and have experienced deathbed conversions and revelations only to watch the day to day reclaim its hold on the person after being spared their death. Being on the chopping block and getting serious with that experience didn't change my plans a lot, but more how I relate to them and the world. <<<
I simply don't get that statement. If it did not change your plans a lot but only how you relate to them implies to me that you simply experienced an affirmation. IOW, you were already on the track you wanted.
And how does one's failure to take the hint affect the value of the hint to others? I mean, if I look at life through that filter and make my choices according to the vision I see ... clearly I am NOT one of those who does not benefit. So ...???
>>> Is watching Fox News and wanting to strangle the talking head the height of human experience? I dunno anymore. <<<
Oh, I do, and the answer, should you wish it, is "NO!" LOL ;-) Only morons debate morons, I guess. ;-)
>>> There is this, then that. Its all part of the world as I am. Forcing life and the world into "goals" and fantasies just seems really tedious for the most part and unnecessary anymore. <<<
That in itself is a goal. As the Delhi Lama himself pointed out, the sacred precept of non attachment itself forms the basis of an attachment for Buddhists. The decision to "go with the flow" is a long term goal made up of instant tasks of turning off FOX News, throwing out your shoes and going barefoot. ;-)
>>> Does that mean that one does not live without goals? Of course not, I cannot imagine how one could. The future if nothing else conditions our existence more than anything. For me, it is how seriously I take those plans and fantasies. <<<
But you have to take them seriously enough to DO the things necessary to get to the goals, right? Beyond that, what meaning (outside of neurosis) does "taking it seriously" mean?
>>> The world and God have one helluva a sense of humor (if most on this board do not) especially when it comes to my plans. <<<
Oh, I think your plans are pretty funny ;-)
>>> An artery goes burst, an earthquake buries me under rubble, a traffic accident causes me to be late to a "very important" interview . . . <<<
I think you are confusing the act of choosing how you will behave with the success of that behavior. Just because you have a plan you are not guaranteed of its success. But not having that plan does guarantee you'll not achieve the success of that (non) plan. I don't think that anyone here feels immune from the vagaries of life and death. But so long as we are alive, we are best advised to plan for that life. As you say elsewhere, to plan based on death is not very useful. Even those who plan based on their death are planning FOR their life. You can't DO anything when dead, you can only DO things while alive.
So plan for that meeting. Prepare. Get your slides organized. Leave early. And if you are late ... well, that's the way it goes. Better luck next time.
>>> AF helps me to have a more and more realistic relationship to what I want and would plan and how the world would have me. <<<
Personally, I found that it turned into just a pile of random thoughts I had, many of which were not important. Yeah, "buy cat food" is important to the cats ... and me if I want to enjoy them ... but in the big picture ... it does not get me nearer my big goals.
>>> Marathons, retirement, advanced degrees, etc. are not necessarily what the world wants, no matter how much we protest. <<<
I'm not the least concerned with what the world wants ... only what I want.
>>> And yes laziness is a virtue. <<<
I've never thought otherwise ;-)
>>> "Happiness" is nebulous and overrated and usually associated with a "feeling" of some sort if you are able to possibly figure out anything anyone means when talking about it. <<<
Well, how is that observation relevant? We all know what the feeling is that we want ... who cares what it is called or how we define it or what we can prove about it in a lab? I mean, we could debate terms like fun, joy, pleasure, happiness, etc. until the cows come home. But why does that suggest that we should not do what we like?
>>> Thinking that you can possibly imagine how what you do today will impact a momentary feeling in the future is pretty high up on the level of hubris, especially 10 years out. <<<
Do you not agree that it makes sense to learn from the experiences of others? If others tell me that when they reached the "end" what made a difference to them was X, Y, and Z. And those "others" amount to a lot of people ... why would I not decide that I might reasonably expect to feel much the same way?
>>> People who write for productivity columns probably haven't thought much about temporality and how things like the "past", "now", and "future" are related. So I really don't take them too seriously. <<<
I don't take them seriously simply because they are mostly kids trying to become rich writing blogs ... and have no experience of their own to call upon.
>>> In ten years, you have no idea what you will remember today. Maybe when you exercise today, you fall and are paralyzed. Maybe in ten years you will regret that. Maybe being paralyzed will draw you closer to someone in your life and you will treasure that moment later. Most likely you will have confused and compound thoughts and feelings about just everything that happens. <<<
Yes, one can hardly argue with the old parable about the farmer's son. But one MUST make SOME choice and once that is understood, it comes down to deciding the best method to make the choice. If one then looks to the experiences of others (assuming you don't believe that you are best advised to learn everything from scratch) one gets a pretty universal agreement that some things will be regretted and some not so much.
>>> I reject this whole looking at the now in the light of the future or your deathbed as if it were some authentic guide to life. <<<
I'm not sure anyone said it was "an authentic guide to life". I think it was more of a "cautionary tale". I mean what is the character of the advice? Is it: "Be sure to bet your birthday in the lottery every week?" (I agree that some people have said that but it is not the kind of advice most of us consider valuable.) Or is it more along the lines of: "How you treat others will form how you evaluate the success of your life at the end." (Maybe that sounds right, maybe not, but many have said that kind of thing so there is likely to be some truth to it.) Or is it: "If you work more hours and neglect enjoying yourself, your family, and your friends, you'll regret it." (Something that makes so much sense on the face of it that we scarcely need to question it.
>>> What you value on your deathbed is what you will value on your deathbed. To think that fantasizing about that moment now will change the drama of the life lived before then is the stuff of TV and Hollywood. <<<
But I can't imagine that is true. On your deathbed, if you have the time to reflect at all, it will be on what you DID or DID NOT do. And the choice you make today will make up part of that collection of things done or not done. And obviously, to me at east, thinking about that and making a CHOICE based on that will IN FACT change how I live my life.
>>> I have seen and have experienced deathbed conversions and revelations only to watch the day to day reclaim its hold on the person after being spared their death. Being on the chopping block and getting serious with that experience didn't change my plans a lot, but more how I relate to them and the world. <<<
I simply don't get that statement. If it did not change your plans a lot but only how you relate to them implies to me that you simply experienced an affirmation. IOW, you were already on the track you wanted.
And how does one's failure to take the hint affect the value of the hint to others? I mean, if I look at life through that filter and make my choices according to the vision I see ... clearly I am NOT one of those who does not benefit. So ...???
>>> Is watching Fox News and wanting to strangle the talking head the height of human experience? I dunno anymore. <<<
Oh, I do, and the answer, should you wish it, is "NO!" LOL ;-) Only morons debate morons, I guess. ;-)
>>> There is this, then that. Its all part of the world as I am. Forcing life and the world into "goals" and fantasies just seems really tedious for the most part and unnecessary anymore. <<<
That in itself is a goal. As the Delhi Lama himself pointed out, the sacred precept of non attachment itself forms the basis of an attachment for Buddhists. The decision to "go with the flow" is a long term goal made up of instant tasks of turning off FOX News, throwing out your shoes and going barefoot. ;-)
>>> Does that mean that one does not live without goals? Of course not, I cannot imagine how one could. The future if nothing else conditions our existence more than anything. For me, it is how seriously I take those plans and fantasies. <<<
But you have to take them seriously enough to DO the things necessary to get to the goals, right? Beyond that, what meaning (outside of neurosis) does "taking it seriously" mean?
>>> The world and God have one helluva a sense of humor (if most on this board do not) especially when it comes to my plans. <<<
Oh, I think your plans are pretty funny ;-)
>>> An artery goes burst, an earthquake buries me under rubble, a traffic accident causes me to be late to a "very important" interview . . . <<<
I think you are confusing the act of choosing how you will behave with the success of that behavior. Just because you have a plan you are not guaranteed of its success. But not having that plan does guarantee you'll not achieve the success of that (non) plan. I don't think that anyone here feels immune from the vagaries of life and death. But so long as we are alive, we are best advised to plan for that life. As you say elsewhere, to plan based on death is not very useful. Even those who plan based on their death are planning FOR their life. You can't DO anything when dead, you can only DO things while alive.
So plan for that meeting. Prepare. Get your slides organized. Leave early. And if you are late ... well, that's the way it goes. Better luck next time.
>>> AF helps me to have a more and more realistic relationship to what I want and would plan and how the world would have me. <<<
Personally, I found that it turned into just a pile of random thoughts I had, many of which were not important. Yeah, "buy cat food" is important to the cats ... and me if I want to enjoy them ... but in the big picture ... it does not get me nearer my big goals.
>>> Marathons, retirement, advanced degrees, etc. are not necessarily what the world wants, no matter how much we protest. <<<
I'm not the least concerned with what the world wants ... only what I want.
>>> And yes laziness is a virtue. <<<
I've never thought otherwise ;-)
April 18, 2010 at 11:35 |
Mike
Mike
Again, I did not feel following AF or DWM provided me with a "That was a day well spent" feeling. I have that feeling before, I would like it again. Perhaps systems are besides the point. Often I think, the only question I have to answer is:
What are you scared of?
Do that.
What are you scared of?
Do that.
April 18, 2010 at 19:12 |
RF
RF
>>What are you scared of?<<
Classic Mark Twain - eat the frog.
“If you eat a frog first thing in the morning, the rest of your day will be wonderful.”
“If you have to eat a frog, don’t look at it for too long."
Classic Mark Twain - eat the frog.
“If you eat a frog first thing in the morning, the rest of your day will be wonderful.”
“If you have to eat a frog, don’t look at it for too long."
April 19, 2010 at 0:46 |
Jacqueline
Jacqueline
Happiness would be nice, but we shouldn't feel stressed about not being happy.
April 19, 2010 at 7:00 |
Will
Will
RF:
To answer the original post:
<< What did not work (though, in theory, sounded good):
<< * using intuition: scanning my lists increased anxiety. I rarely had "ah ha" moments, but instead, had many: "Argh, I need to do this and that". Good for small stuff, but my larger (non urgent, but important) goals lingered >>
It takes a while to get used to trusting the "standing out" feeling. It sounds as if you have been intellectualising it too much. By which I mean you need to avoid as far as possible saying things to yourself like "I need to do this and that" to yourself. If you are doing this, you are not using your intuition.
As for your larger goals not getting actioned, this is probably because you are not breaking them down sufficiently. Try to reduce them to the same level of "triviality" as the items you do succeed in doing. So instead of writing "Organise summer conference", write "Make appointment with Bill to discuss summer conference".
<< * scanning lists: by the 3rd go around, I ignored the lists. It felt mechanical... droid like. Not fun. >>
So you abandoned it doing it properly after only two passes, and are now complaining that it doesn't work. Not scanning the list is causing the problems you are subsequently complaining of.
<< * writing vs digital: total PITA when needing to locate a project, task, etc. >>
This is a matter of personal taste, but if you are scanning the list you will know where everything is anyway.
<< * everything in one place: the feeling generated by having everything in one place created a lack of focus >>
Again, I suspect the cause of this is not scanning the list.
To answer the original post:
<< What did not work (though, in theory, sounded good):
<< * using intuition: scanning my lists increased anxiety. I rarely had "ah ha" moments, but instead, had many: "Argh, I need to do this and that". Good for small stuff, but my larger (non urgent, but important) goals lingered >>
It takes a while to get used to trusting the "standing out" feeling. It sounds as if you have been intellectualising it too much. By which I mean you need to avoid as far as possible saying things to yourself like "I need to do this and that" to yourself. If you are doing this, you are not using your intuition.
As for your larger goals not getting actioned, this is probably because you are not breaking them down sufficiently. Try to reduce them to the same level of "triviality" as the items you do succeed in doing. So instead of writing "Organise summer conference", write "Make appointment with Bill to discuss summer conference".
<< * scanning lists: by the 3rd go around, I ignored the lists. It felt mechanical... droid like. Not fun. >>
So you abandoned it doing it properly after only two passes, and are now complaining that it doesn't work. Not scanning the list is causing the problems you are subsequently complaining of.
<< * writing vs digital: total PITA when needing to locate a project, task, etc. >>
This is a matter of personal taste, but if you are scanning the list you will know where everything is anyway.
<< * everything in one place: the feeling generated by having everything in one place created a lack of focus >>
Again, I suspect the cause of this is not scanning the list.
April 19, 2010 at 9:49 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
What works:
* keeping me honest: dismissal rules for all projects, tasks, etc.
* reducing anxiety: capturing all tasks/projects/insights into one system
What did not work (though, in theory, sounded good):
* using intuition: scanning my lists increased anxiety. I rarely had "ah ha" moments, but instead, had many: "Argh, I need to do this and that". Good for small stuff, but my larger (non urgent, but important) goals lingered
* scanning lists: by the 3rd go around, I ignored the lists. It felt mechanical... droid like. Not fun.
* writing vs digital: total PITA when needing to locate a project, task, etc.
* everything in one place: the feeling generated by having everything in one place created a lack of focus
Current system:
I keep my DWM list in Omnifocus (sorted by due date).
AM - I answer 3 questions:
What do I need to do (often items up for dismissal and/or urgent)?
What do I want to do?
What am I afraid to do?
The answer to the above questions, as well as what I do throughout the day, is written down in a daily diary.
PM:
Update my DWM list with completed items, reoccuring items and new task/projects.
The above retains the assembly-line effect of DWM, and the recommended focus from 1st things 1st & ZTD.