Discussion Forum > Loose leaf vs bound notebook for lists
Alan:
<< To me, organizing project information is an aspect of personal organization. >>
Organizing project information is a task, like any other task.
If you were a project manager in charge of a major engineering project like building a new skyscraper, there is no way in which you would confuse aspects of project management with your own personal organisation. You would be able to see quite clearly that your personal time management and personal organisation refer only to your own individual tasks and organisation, and not to the project as a whole.
<< To me, organizing project information is an aspect of personal organization. >>
Organizing project information is a task, like any other task.
If you were a project manager in charge of a major engineering project like building a new skyscraper, there is no way in which you would confuse aspects of project management with your own personal organisation. You would be able to see quite clearly that your personal time management and personal organisation refer only to your own individual tasks and organisation, and not to the project as a whole.
February 4, 2011 at 21:33 |
Mark Forster

If I am to manage a project, whether a personal project, or on behalf of a company with people under me ( small company; no skyscraper buildings here ), organizing the information and activities is my personal responsibility. This is NOT something I find easy. If you're suggesting that how to do this is outside your expertise or interest or vocation, I accept that.
Yet it's still a concern of mine equal and parallell to task management. If my projects are disorganized then I am personally disorganized.
Yet it's still a concern of mine equal and parallell to task management. If my projects are disorganized then I am personally disorganized.
February 4, 2011 at 22:43 |
Alan Baljeu

As I mentioned earlier, the balance between TM and PM is an issue for many and one I have tried to address. If I am busy working on say 20 projects and all of what I am to do is in PM files, I still need a system to know how to prioritize these activities. In theory I could have no TM system because all I do is work on projects and with materials kept elsewhere.
I remember a maybe a year or so ago when this came up and I proposed an AF like system called Project focus where you cycled through projects in an AF like manner working on each one until you could not or did not feel like working on it. But because you were cycling through them, they all got reviewed regularly. The article may still be on my blog.
Gerry.
I remember a maybe a year or so ago when this came up and I proposed an AF like system called Project focus where you cycled through projects in an AF like manner working on each one until you could not or did not feel like working on it. But because you were cycling through them, they all got reviewed regularly. The article may still be on my blog.
Gerry.
February 4, 2011 at 23:53 |
Gerry

Alan:
<< organizing the information and activities is my personal responsibility >>
And so is looking after your family and your health and many other things. But that doesn't mean that time management teaches you how to bring up your children or keep fit.
<< organizing the information and activities is my personal responsibility >>
And so is looking after your family and your health and many other things. But that doesn't mean that time management teaches you how to bring up your children or keep fit.
February 5, 2011 at 0:41 |
Mark Forster

Gerry:
<< all I do is work on projects and with materials kept elsewhere.>>
Exactly, the projects and materials are kept elsewhere. They are not part of the time management system. With this set-up you could use any time management system, or none.
Project management and time management are independent, as I keep saying.
<< I remember a maybe a year or so ago when this came up and I proposed an AF like system called Project focus where you cycled through projects in an AF like manner working on each one until you could not or did not feel like working on it.>>
Basically this is AF (or whatever system you are using) with the tasks written very large:
"Project X" instead of "Phone Jean re Project X".
I encourage people to write tasks at whatever level works best for that particular task.
<< all I do is work on projects and with materials kept elsewhere.>>
Exactly, the projects and materials are kept elsewhere. They are not part of the time management system. With this set-up you could use any time management system, or none.
Project management and time management are independent, as I keep saying.
<< I remember a maybe a year or so ago when this came up and I proposed an AF like system called Project focus where you cycled through projects in an AF like manner working on each one until you could not or did not feel like working on it.>>
Basically this is AF (or whatever system you are using) with the tasks written very large:
"Project X" instead of "Phone Jean re Project X".
I encourage people to write tasks at whatever level works best for that particular task.
February 5, 2011 at 0:47 |
Mark Forster

We are getting wires crossed here. This is what I understand:
You consider that organizing personal project materials has nothing to do with this website.
I was mistaken in supposing it would be included under "personal organization".
You consider that organizing personal project materials has nothing to do with this website.
I was mistaken in supposing it would be included under "personal organization".
February 5, 2011 at 1:39 |
Alan Baljeu

Mark,
You wrote:
> You would be able to see quite clearly that your personal time management and personal organisation refer only to your own individual tasks and organisation, and not to the project as a whole. <
First, I don't believe anyone is confusing:
– Dishwasher Repaired
– Buy tennis shoes
with:
– Project #1115022 (btw, real project number for me)
Second, it seems to me that in the above statement you are leaving out the time management aspect of tasks within a project.
When a person gets to his office and begins working on his projects, is there no place for time management?
I also don't believe that anyone is confusing tasks within a project with project information within a project. That is to say, I don't believe anyone confuses the task "arrange conference call" with a spreadsheet or an email or an address book or a PDF or a calendar or a photocopy or a GANNT chart, etc.
Matt
You wrote:
> You would be able to see quite clearly that your personal time management and personal organisation refer only to your own individual tasks and organisation, and not to the project as a whole. <
First, I don't believe anyone is confusing:
– Dishwasher Repaired
– Buy tennis shoes
with:
– Project #1115022 (btw, real project number for me)
Second, it seems to me that in the above statement you are leaving out the time management aspect of tasks within a project.
When a person gets to his office and begins working on his projects, is there no place for time management?
I also don't believe that anyone is confusing tasks within a project with project information within a project. That is to say, I don't believe anyone confuses the task "arrange conference call" with a spreadsheet or an email or an address book or a PDF or a calendar or a photocopy or a GANNT chart, etc.
Matt
February 5, 2011 at 2:21 |
2mc

Regarding loose-leaf paper, I can illustrate by analogy what it sounds like some are saying.
Suppose a bus passes your house once each day going in opposite directions. In morning it goes to your office building; in the evening it passes your house. Each day you go to work via the bus and come home via the bus.
It seems that some are saying that if you decide to take your car to work two things may happen:
1) It will be complicated to drive to work and you may give up and go back home, or
2) because the car can go anywhere, you will drive around all day and never go to work.
Now, if you were talking with friends and you said that you like to take the bus, not a word of contradiction would be heard. But, if in talking with friends, you warned them against taking their car to work because it's complicated or they might drive around all day, wouldn't their derision be just?
Matt
Suppose a bus passes your house once each day going in opposite directions. In morning it goes to your office building; in the evening it passes your house. Each day you go to work via the bus and come home via the bus.
It seems that some are saying that if you decide to take your car to work two things may happen:
1) It will be complicated to drive to work and you may give up and go back home, or
2) because the car can go anywhere, you will drive around all day and never go to work.
Now, if you were talking with friends and you said that you like to take the bus, not a word of contradiction would be heard. But, if in talking with friends, you warned them against taking their car to work because it's complicated or they might drive around all day, wouldn't their derision be just?
Matt
February 5, 2011 at 2:28 |
2mc

I am an almost completely autonomous worker. I work out of my house. I'm only assigned projects, with the processing of the project being entirely up to me.
Until I found AF1, I was entirely stressed out because I had so much to do. I have project todo's, non-project work todo's, and personal todo's. I had to modify AF1 to handle this and the slight modification I made to AF1 made all the difference in the world with regard to stress and productivity.
I'm thankful to Mark for the initial idea.
I hope that provides some context to my other comments throughout this website.
Matt
Until I found AF1, I was entirely stressed out because I had so much to do. I have project todo's, non-project work todo's, and personal todo's. I had to modify AF1 to handle this and the slight modification I made to AF1 made all the difference in the world with regard to stress and productivity.
I'm thankful to Mark for the initial idea.
I hope that provides some context to my other comments throughout this website.
Matt
February 5, 2011 at 2:35 |
2mc

Re: loose leaf or bound notebook: I like things neat and I use the AF system with the Myndology notebooks. I have two of them and I can move pages that are done into the other book. I like having pages I can replace if they get messed up. I have a few other lists, like "things that really bother me that I must do something about" in a separate section and I periodically add a to do on my AF list to look at that list.
February 5, 2011 at 4:17 |
Ruth Capers

2mc wrote:
<<<Now, if you were talking with friends and you said that you like to take the bus, not a word of contradiction would be heard. But, if in talking with friends, you warned them against taking their car to work because it's complicated or they might drive around all day, wouldn't their derision be just?>>>
First, Mark and myself (and maybe others?) have said things like "in my experience...", the loose-leaf approach is too much like a distracting toy and takes away from time management. I don't think anyone was saying, "Hey everyone, WATCH OUT for those dangerous loose-leaf folders!!" I myself said, "If it works for you, great! But for me it can be a distraction."
Second, this sentiment about the trap of tinkering and optimizing, at the expense of getting things done, has been discussed in great depth and breadth on this site (and others). It's a common trait of procrastinators. It can "feel" like work but it's really just another way to avoid doing the work. If you don't have procrastination tendencies, this probably doesn't make sense to you. But for many people it's a real problem.
To use your car analogy: Let's say someone had a strong tendency to avoid going to the office, for whatever reason -- didn't want to deal with the work, or the stress, or the dysfunction, or whatever. But he also never really faced these issues head-on, and was an expert at finding ways to AVOID dealing with them, even doing this unconsciously.
And let's say the person always had an affinity for working on his car. To get his job done -- to go to work -- he really just needed a good basic commuter car. But instead, he got a specialized truck and was always in the habit of customizing it. Sometimes he would say to himself, "That commute is driving me crazy. What I really need is a better car stereo -- then the commute would be OK." So he calls in sick and spends the day shopping for and installing a new car stereo.
A couple weeks later, he is just ITCHING to get away from his office. On the way home from a stressful day, he hits a pothole on the highway, and the truck bounces a bit too much. He decides he really needs some new struts and shocks to deal with the stress of the commute. So he decides to take a three-day weekend, and spends it tinkering with the car, getting new wheels and larger tires in the process.
He never actually takes the time to enjoy the tinkering, and never drives for pleasure. He uses the truck only for commuting. But he keeps taking time off, making excuses that he just can't deal with the commute and "needs a break" or "needs this new thing" or "just wants to tweak the timing a little" or whatever. He's painted his truck a different color at least three times and he's only had it for two years.
His friends have seen him do this kind of thing for years, and see how it affects both his work and personal life in a negative way, but they can't understand what motivates him.
Underneath it all is a set of issues with work, commitment, being unable to finish things, fears, and other irrational behaviors that are hard to articulate and very hard for others to understand.
He himself secretly envies his friends who just get in their cars and go to work every day, and doesn't know why he himself can't bring himself to settle into such a simple routine. He is too unsettled to do that for too long at one stretch, and finds himself needing "breaks" all the time... which he spends on empty tinkering which he always says is really a kind of work, because it helps his commute and makes his workday easier. He never admits to taking a vacation -- it's always got to be disguised as work -- so in reality, he is never really focused on his work, and never really UNfocused on it either, never really taking a rest.
What would true friends do in this case? Would they deride, or empathize that there is a real problem here that isn't easily solved?
One of the geniuses of Mark's systems is his clear recognition of some of these (very) common forms of psychological resistance to doing one's work, and finding innovative and EFFECTIVE ways to overcome them. And not only overcome them, but truly change one's attitudes and behaviors, approaching something like a cure, so one can just be more effective, more purposeful, and more realistic about one's work.
Perhaps your "amazement" simply demonstrates that you haven't ever needed to deal with those kinds of internal struggles. Or have dealt with them in other ways. Or haven't used Mark's systems long enough to realize how well they deal with these issues and help people form better habits.
<<<Now, if you were talking with friends and you said that you like to take the bus, not a word of contradiction would be heard. But, if in talking with friends, you warned them against taking their car to work because it's complicated or they might drive around all day, wouldn't their derision be just?>>>
First, Mark and myself (and maybe others?) have said things like "in my experience...", the loose-leaf approach is too much like a distracting toy and takes away from time management. I don't think anyone was saying, "Hey everyone, WATCH OUT for those dangerous loose-leaf folders!!" I myself said, "If it works for you, great! But for me it can be a distraction."
Second, this sentiment about the trap of tinkering and optimizing, at the expense of getting things done, has been discussed in great depth and breadth on this site (and others). It's a common trait of procrastinators. It can "feel" like work but it's really just another way to avoid doing the work. If you don't have procrastination tendencies, this probably doesn't make sense to you. But for many people it's a real problem.
To use your car analogy: Let's say someone had a strong tendency to avoid going to the office, for whatever reason -- didn't want to deal with the work, or the stress, or the dysfunction, or whatever. But he also never really faced these issues head-on, and was an expert at finding ways to AVOID dealing with them, even doing this unconsciously.
And let's say the person always had an affinity for working on his car. To get his job done -- to go to work -- he really just needed a good basic commuter car. But instead, he got a specialized truck and was always in the habit of customizing it. Sometimes he would say to himself, "That commute is driving me crazy. What I really need is a better car stereo -- then the commute would be OK." So he calls in sick and spends the day shopping for and installing a new car stereo.
A couple weeks later, he is just ITCHING to get away from his office. On the way home from a stressful day, he hits a pothole on the highway, and the truck bounces a bit too much. He decides he really needs some new struts and shocks to deal with the stress of the commute. So he decides to take a three-day weekend, and spends it tinkering with the car, getting new wheels and larger tires in the process.
He never actually takes the time to enjoy the tinkering, and never drives for pleasure. He uses the truck only for commuting. But he keeps taking time off, making excuses that he just can't deal with the commute and "needs a break" or "needs this new thing" or "just wants to tweak the timing a little" or whatever. He's painted his truck a different color at least three times and he's only had it for two years.
His friends have seen him do this kind of thing for years, and see how it affects both his work and personal life in a negative way, but they can't understand what motivates him.
Underneath it all is a set of issues with work, commitment, being unable to finish things, fears, and other irrational behaviors that are hard to articulate and very hard for others to understand.
He himself secretly envies his friends who just get in their cars and go to work every day, and doesn't know why he himself can't bring himself to settle into such a simple routine. He is too unsettled to do that for too long at one stretch, and finds himself needing "breaks" all the time... which he spends on empty tinkering which he always says is really a kind of work, because it helps his commute and makes his workday easier. He never admits to taking a vacation -- it's always got to be disguised as work -- so in reality, he is never really focused on his work, and never really UNfocused on it either, never really taking a rest.
What would true friends do in this case? Would they deride, or empathize that there is a real problem here that isn't easily solved?
One of the geniuses of Mark's systems is his clear recognition of some of these (very) common forms of psychological resistance to doing one's work, and finding innovative and EFFECTIVE ways to overcome them. And not only overcome them, but truly change one's attitudes and behaviors, approaching something like a cure, so one can just be more effective, more purposeful, and more realistic about one's work.
Perhaps your "amazement" simply demonstrates that you haven't ever needed to deal with those kinds of internal struggles. Or have dealt with them in other ways. Or haven't used Mark's systems long enough to realize how well they deal with these issues and help people form better habits.
February 5, 2011 at 6:55 |
Seraphim

@ Matt - would you be kind enought to share the customisations you made to your AF system that allowed better management of your projects (I feel we share a similar work situation).
@Seraphim - WOW - what an amazing post. I had a real eurika moment when I read that because this is exactly what I do (not with the car but with what materials I should use and which system!). It's amazing how understanding this suddenly puts it all into perspective. It's a bit like the Nike slogan you should 'Just do it'.
@Seraphim - WOW - what an amazing post. I had a real eurika moment when I read that because this is exactly what I do (not with the car but with what materials I should use and which system!). It's amazing how understanding this suddenly puts it all into perspective. It's a bit like the Nike slogan you should 'Just do it'.
February 5, 2011 at 9:43 |
Alison Reeves

The metaphor is very good. The literal car-to-work problem is extremely rare for two reasons:
1. Since preschool we've been trained every morning go to "work" and every evening go home.
2. Money talks. We know money only comes of actually going.
In many other contexts the above aren't true and procrastination does show up. I wonder whether understanding these factors can lead to a solution.
1. Since preschool we've been trained every morning go to "work" and every evening go home.
2. Money talks. We know money only comes of actually going.
In many other contexts the above aren't true and procrastination does show up. I wonder whether understanding these factors can lead to a solution.
February 5, 2011 at 12:13 |
Alan Baljeu

Seraphim,
Four things:
1 – You slightly changed the analogy from a car to a truck. That changed the analogy. If loose-leaf is the more-than-necessary truck and fixed-leaf is the bus, what is the car?
2 – I can show the warnings, but I wont' take time to quote them. It's pointless.
3 – Your comment on my analogy proves my point. There is something wrong with the person not the mode of transportation.
4 – You go on to state that wouldn't the friends "empathize that there is a real problem here that isn't easily solved?", but you fail to continue the analogy and tell us what that solution would be.
To continue my analogy based on what you said, the solution offered by "friends" would be to warn him to always take the bus. True friends would probably kid him about his quirk in the beginning, but then realize that the dude had some serious problems. His true friends would probably stage an intervention and get him to a psychiatrist to determine what the real problem is.
Matt
Four things:
1 – You slightly changed the analogy from a car to a truck. That changed the analogy. If loose-leaf is the more-than-necessary truck and fixed-leaf is the bus, what is the car?
2 – I can show the warnings, but I wont' take time to quote them. It's pointless.
3 – Your comment on my analogy proves my point. There is something wrong with the person not the mode of transportation.
4 – You go on to state that wouldn't the friends "empathize that there is a real problem here that isn't easily solved?", but you fail to continue the analogy and tell us what that solution would be.
To continue my analogy based on what you said, the solution offered by "friends" would be to warn him to always take the bus. True friends would probably kid him about his quirk in the beginning, but then realize that the dude had some serious problems. His true friends would probably stage an intervention and get him to a psychiatrist to determine what the real problem is.
Matt
February 5, 2011 at 13:53 |
2mc

Alison,
You asked about my tweak. You can find in the post I started entitled:
"Systems are losing simplicity"
Matt
You asked about my tweak. You can find in the post I started entitled:
"Systems are losing simplicity"
Matt
February 5, 2011 at 14:04 |
2mc

Matt, you seem to be lacking in empathy. Research shows 25% of people have a procrastination problem. Seraphim's example exaggerates but illustrates reality. You can say there's something wrong with 25% of people, but that's not helpful. The problem is minor: a few wasted hours. It doesn't merit a shrink. The solution is easy: environmental constraints like fixed page notebook, Internet blocking software, etc. Just stop ranting about how these people must be crazy, because we are talking about a real and common situation.
The car corresponds for some to a three ring binder. The truck is a moleskine with a fancy pen, highlighters, all the gadgets, a punch, etc.
The car corresponds for some to a three ring binder. The truck is a moleskine with a fancy pen, highlighters, all the gadgets, a punch, etc.
February 5, 2011 at 14:36 |
Alan Baljeu

Alan,
You said:
> you seem to be lacking in empathy. <
I'm sorry if it came across that way. I do have empathy.
> Research shows 25% of people have a procrastination problem. Seraphim's example exaggerates but illustrates reality. You can say there's something wrong with 25% of people, but that's not helpful.<
Yes, and why do you think I'm here? I'll tell you. I'm solidly in the 25% camp. By nature I am a procrastinator. I come from a long line of procrastinators. My dad was paralyzed by procrastination and I vowed not to be like him. Yet, in spite of my efforts, I remain like him. The principles Mark brought out on this website have proved to be an incredible help to me. I still remain by nature a procrastinator, but I have an incredible tool to continually deal with it. My thanks to Mark for this.
You misunderstood the point of my continuing Seraphim's analogy (the adaptation of my analogy). I was illustrating the fault in his logic. I was not saying that people who use fixed-leaf notebooks are in need of a psychiatrist. I'm sorry if the wording made it seem that way. I was just pointing out that Seraphim's comments lead to an unusual conclusion and one that is different from the point he was trying to make.
There are people – me especially, but others on this board – for whom a fixed-leaf notebook would be a problem for the many reasons that I and others have articulated before. So, the warning to stay away from loose-leaf pages might alarm a beginner to go away from something that would be beneficial and to go to something that might be problematic. I don't remember any on the loose-leaf side complaining about the lack of empathy for these.
I still maintain that there is nothing in the *essential nature* of loose-leaf paper in a notebook that either 1) is complicated or 2) causes one to waste significant time rearranging papers. This has been my consistent point since the beginning of this discussion and I've only been answering challenges to this position.
I apologize for not being able to adequately convey this on the board, such that people misinterpret this as a lack of empathy. I empathize with procrastinators, because I am one.
I won't make another post about loose-leaf. I didn't know I was ranting, so I'll stop. Please accept my apologies for the ranting.
Matt
You said:
> you seem to be lacking in empathy. <
I'm sorry if it came across that way. I do have empathy.
> Research shows 25% of people have a procrastination problem. Seraphim's example exaggerates but illustrates reality. You can say there's something wrong with 25% of people, but that's not helpful.<
Yes, and why do you think I'm here? I'll tell you. I'm solidly in the 25% camp. By nature I am a procrastinator. I come from a long line of procrastinators. My dad was paralyzed by procrastination and I vowed not to be like him. Yet, in spite of my efforts, I remain like him. The principles Mark brought out on this website have proved to be an incredible help to me. I still remain by nature a procrastinator, but I have an incredible tool to continually deal with it. My thanks to Mark for this.
You misunderstood the point of my continuing Seraphim's analogy (the adaptation of my analogy). I was illustrating the fault in his logic. I was not saying that people who use fixed-leaf notebooks are in need of a psychiatrist. I'm sorry if the wording made it seem that way. I was just pointing out that Seraphim's comments lead to an unusual conclusion and one that is different from the point he was trying to make.
There are people – me especially, but others on this board – for whom a fixed-leaf notebook would be a problem for the many reasons that I and others have articulated before. So, the warning to stay away from loose-leaf pages might alarm a beginner to go away from something that would be beneficial and to go to something that might be problematic. I don't remember any on the loose-leaf side complaining about the lack of empathy for these.
I still maintain that there is nothing in the *essential nature* of loose-leaf paper in a notebook that either 1) is complicated or 2) causes one to waste significant time rearranging papers. This has been my consistent point since the beginning of this discussion and I've only been answering challenges to this position.
I apologize for not being able to adequately convey this on the board, such that people misinterpret this as a lack of empathy. I empathize with procrastinators, because I am one.
I won't make another post about loose-leaf. I didn't know I was ranting, so I'll stop. Please accept my apologies for the ranting.
Matt
February 5, 2011 at 15:07 |
2mc

I appreciate the change in tone. Now I largely agree with you:
- to NOT use loose paper is for many a significant barrier
- Mark's methods are especially good for the chronic procrastinator
- thus lots of people here are in the danger category
These people are easily distracted. sources of distraction should therefore be minimized. A complex system for TM is one source.
Solution (1) is to use a notebook to make complex systems impossible
Solution (2) is to use a binder and stick rigidly to a simple system by self-fiat.
(1) requires less willpower, but doesn't suit every situation.
- to NOT use loose paper is for many a significant barrier
- Mark's methods are especially good for the chronic procrastinator
- thus lots of people here are in the danger category
These people are easily distracted. sources of distraction should therefore be minimized. A complex system for TM is one source.
Solution (1) is to use a notebook to make complex systems impossible
Solution (2) is to use a binder and stick rigidly to a simple system by self-fiat.
(1) requires less willpower, but doesn't suit every situation.
February 5, 2011 at 16:05 |
Alan Baljeu

Matt,
I don't think there was any fault in my logic. In fact, you seemed to summarize my argument very well: the problem lies with the person.
Some good tools, in the wrong hands, tend to exasperate the problem. The same tools, in other hands, are effective tools. E.g., loose leaf.
Another set of tools can help the person with the problem, overcome the problem. But the person without the problem might feel hindered by the tool's limitations. E.g., fixed leaf.
I haven't been trying to convince you that loose leaf is "bad". I've been trying to convince you that some people find that loose leaf (etc.) exasperates their TM problems. You seemed astonished about that, and didn't believe it could be true.
Personally, I enthusiastically appreciate this aspect of Mark's AF systems, that they all use a simple, cheap notebook as the main tool. People can (and do) adjust to fit their own needs, but there's no requirement or pressure, as there is with some systems, to spend $50 on a "Workflow Map" or $100 on a specialized planner system or $300 on a PDA.
I don't think there was any fault in my logic. In fact, you seemed to summarize my argument very well: the problem lies with the person.
Some good tools, in the wrong hands, tend to exasperate the problem. The same tools, in other hands, are effective tools. E.g., loose leaf.
Another set of tools can help the person with the problem, overcome the problem. But the person without the problem might feel hindered by the tool's limitations. E.g., fixed leaf.
I haven't been trying to convince you that loose leaf is "bad". I've been trying to convince you that some people find that loose leaf (etc.) exasperates their TM problems. You seemed astonished about that, and didn't believe it could be true.
Personally, I enthusiastically appreciate this aspect of Mark's AF systems, that they all use a simple, cheap notebook as the main tool. People can (and do) adjust to fit their own needs, but there's no requirement or pressure, as there is with some systems, to spend $50 on a "Workflow Map" or $100 on a specialized planner system or $300 on a PDA.
February 5, 2011 at 16:34 |
Seraphim

Allison - glad it was helpful! :-)
February 5, 2011 at 16:39 |
Seraphim

As long as this kind of discourse stays civilized, I find it VERY interesting and enlightening. I think it's great to have a little boat-rocking. This has been civilized, interesting, enlightening.
February 5, 2011 at 20:10 |
DS

This has been an amazing discourse. I have watched as the discussions unfolded. The whole issue of additional items that can distract from one's focus is so profoundly important. I am not saying that loose-leaf paper is bad, or whatever. But the overlying theme of keeping things as simple as possible and minimizing those potential distractions that may keep us from our work. We all have them....they may be different than your neighbors or friends, but they are there. What might one thing we all have in common here? The search for the "perfect" time management system. Taking a system, tweaking it to make it better....one more addition, one more tweak, one more section, context, page, etc. And in doing this....what about our work? We claim that we will get to the work and in a better, more efficient manner once we have that "perfect" system.
NO ONE is more guilty of this than I am. I can't count how many time management systems and approaches I have tried. Why? Because my work is overwhelming and I want to become just a little bit better at doing it. Or is because it is more fun doing a new system than facing that complex project with headaches galore? A bit of both, I think.
My biggest problem these days is not only changing systems, but going back and forth from digital approaches to paper. Doing one...I miss the other. Everything is becoming digital these days. At my university, all paper forms have been replaced by websites - one goes to a particular section of a website and complete forms there. Budget sheets for my grants? I used to get packets in campus mail every week. Now I get an email with a website link where I must reconcile my budget sheets online. Patient records? All digital now. So...it seems like it would be best to maintain one's tasks list/projects lists online. I have tried this -- great websites for GTD and other approaches. I can access them from anywhere. I have a Droid X smartphone....yes, I can access my task list in a meeting right from my smartphone. Completely digital -- no paper. But something is missing. I find myself tweaking the website constantly....did this sync correctly? Why not? Let's fiddle with it some more. And meanwhile....work is not getting done. This is more efficient? Something else is missing....the simple act of writing something down on paper makes it stick in our minds better than typing it out into a website. Studies are showing this....more everyday.
So...I should bring my rambling to a close. Take home message? Keep it simple, folks. And I think paper is the real way to go.
-David
NO ONE is more guilty of this than I am. I can't count how many time management systems and approaches I have tried. Why? Because my work is overwhelming and I want to become just a little bit better at doing it. Or is because it is more fun doing a new system than facing that complex project with headaches galore? A bit of both, I think.
My biggest problem these days is not only changing systems, but going back and forth from digital approaches to paper. Doing one...I miss the other. Everything is becoming digital these days. At my university, all paper forms have been replaced by websites - one goes to a particular section of a website and complete forms there. Budget sheets for my grants? I used to get packets in campus mail every week. Now I get an email with a website link where I must reconcile my budget sheets online. Patient records? All digital now. So...it seems like it would be best to maintain one's tasks list/projects lists online. I have tried this -- great websites for GTD and other approaches. I can access them from anywhere. I have a Droid X smartphone....yes, I can access my task list in a meeting right from my smartphone. Completely digital -- no paper. But something is missing. I find myself tweaking the website constantly....did this sync correctly? Why not? Let's fiddle with it some more. And meanwhile....work is not getting done. This is more efficient? Something else is missing....the simple act of writing something down on paper makes it stick in our minds better than typing it out into a website. Studies are showing this....more everyday.
So...I should bring my rambling to a close. Take home message? Keep it simple, folks. And I think paper is the real way to go.
-David
February 6, 2011 at 1:48 |
David Drake

Nice post, David, some of what you say rings true with me, and others I'm sure.
As I've mentioned elsewhere, I'm hoping the tablet development will bring a viable product with a proper active digitiser (an e-pen) and then I'll be able to have paper and digital in one device. However, I'll ALWAYS carry a pocket notebook and pen with me, still!
A 7 - 9" model will suit me fine, easy to carry around, at work it will stay on my desk next to my notebook computer as my notepad (probably with OneNote), and the same at home.
I also suspect I'll still have a squared A4 pad for sketching projects, ideas etc.
As I've mentioned elsewhere, I'm hoping the tablet development will bring a viable product with a proper active digitiser (an e-pen) and then I'll be able to have paper and digital in one device. However, I'll ALWAYS carry a pocket notebook and pen with me, still!
A 7 - 9" model will suit me fine, easy to carry around, at work it will stay on my desk next to my notebook computer as my notepad (probably with OneNote), and the same at home.
I also suspect I'll still have a squared A4 pad for sketching projects, ideas etc.
February 6, 2011 at 5:26 |
Roger J

Nice post, David, some of what you say rings true with me, and others I'm sure too !
I am a hard worker, this could be very strange but some how I love working. And my indeed weakness is also my temptation to change of systems.
Of course I love paper for the reason you mentioned. But there is a little incoming revolution. Tablet like ipad change the way of working. Using your fingers directly to the screen or using future adapted pen may change the mental perception you spoke about. More using digital tool by a certain way increase efficiency in certain kind of job like mine. Digital tool at the beginning were not adapted to human beings. Now little by little the evaluate and are more adaptable to tweak. The real nature on information is moving too. Most of people and l uses note books for task, others for notes, and so on...
But do you need the information all the time ? Will it still stay up to date for years?
For me, certainly not. I often read my olds notebooks were i write notes. There are old fashion and i could throw them away except that i keep them for a kind of nostalgia.
Anyway, I am sure I will stop changing of system. May be Superfocus R3 will be the solution. So it is not my real challenge. My real challenge will be to choose between paper or digital and find a way of working which let me concentrate on working.
It is not easy. Reading this forum and exchanging with others really help me.
It is not finished but i am on the way. I now I will find the light one day and be efficient in what I do with a global system of organization which suits to me but not necessarily to others.
I am a hard worker, this could be very strange but some how I love working. And my indeed weakness is also my temptation to change of systems.
Of course I love paper for the reason you mentioned. But there is a little incoming revolution. Tablet like ipad change the way of working. Using your fingers directly to the screen or using future adapted pen may change the mental perception you spoke about. More using digital tool by a certain way increase efficiency in certain kind of job like mine. Digital tool at the beginning were not adapted to human beings. Now little by little the evaluate and are more adaptable to tweak. The real nature on information is moving too. Most of people and l uses note books for task, others for notes, and so on...
But do you need the information all the time ? Will it still stay up to date for years?
For me, certainly not. I often read my olds notebooks were i write notes. There are old fashion and i could throw them away except that i keep them for a kind of nostalgia.
Anyway, I am sure I will stop changing of system. May be Superfocus R3 will be the solution. So it is not my real challenge. My real challenge will be to choose between paper or digital and find a way of working which let me concentrate on working.
It is not easy. Reading this forum and exchanging with others really help me.
It is not finished but i am on the way. I now I will find the light one day and be efficient in what I do with a global system of organization which suits to me but not necessarily to others.
February 6, 2011 at 10:10 |
FocusGuy.

Jupiter:
<< Of course I love paper for the reason you mentioned. But there is a little incoming revolution. Tablet like ipad change the way of working. >>
Some interesting thoughts in your post. I myself have found that using a Kindle to read a book like War and Peace is actually a more pleasant experience than reading it on paper. I also like the fact that when I've forgotten who a character is (a frequent happening in War and Peace) I can easily do a search to see where they have previously appeared.
But strangely, my experience with the Kindle has made me no more inclined to use electronic means to keep my time management list. I don't myself see that there is a conflict between electronic and physical. I have a car, but I still do a lot of walking. I can talk to my daughter in Australia with Skype, but I still look forward to visits. I can look at the pictures in the National Gallery on their website in closer detail than in real life, but I still visit the gallery. I could think of numerous other examples, but the essential point is that they complement each other, rather than exclude each other.
<< Of course I love paper for the reason you mentioned. But there is a little incoming revolution. Tablet like ipad change the way of working. >>
Some interesting thoughts in your post. I myself have found that using a Kindle to read a book like War and Peace is actually a more pleasant experience than reading it on paper. I also like the fact that when I've forgotten who a character is (a frequent happening in War and Peace) I can easily do a search to see where they have previously appeared.
But strangely, my experience with the Kindle has made me no more inclined to use electronic means to keep my time management list. I don't myself see that there is a conflict between electronic and physical. I have a car, but I still do a lot of walking. I can talk to my daughter in Australia with Skype, but I still look forward to visits. I can look at the pictures in the National Gallery on their website in closer detail than in real life, but I still visit the gallery. I could think of numerous other examples, but the essential point is that they complement each other, rather than exclude each other.
February 6, 2011 at 11:50 |
Mark Forster

David:
<< I can't count how many time management systems and approaches I have tried. Why? Because my work is overwhelming and I want to become just a little bit better at doing it. >>
One of the odd things I have found about being (more or less) retired is that it is no more easy to keep one's life in order when one isn't overwhelmed with work.
I must expand on this thought sometime - when I've got the time!
<< I can't count how many time management systems and approaches I have tried. Why? Because my work is overwhelming and I want to become just a little bit better at doing it. >>
One of the odd things I have found about being (more or less) retired is that it is no more easy to keep one's life in order when one isn't overwhelmed with work.
I must expand on this thought sometime - when I've got the time!
February 6, 2011 at 11:55 |
Mark Forster

@ Mark
" I don't myself see that there is a conflict between electronic and physical."
"the essential point is that they complement each other, rather than exclude each other".
I guess you are right. On my own experience I found easy to create my "project" in the meaning of GTD. Ie all what is at least 2 tasks. I try to organize these project digitally and for the moment did not find the good way to do it except a file containing all my documents about each project.
If anybody has any idea about this I would be very please about it !
So yes Electronic is helpful to follow and complete these "projects" but for my time management list i love it on paper and more i use now a small 11X17 cm paper note book 192 pages i can carry anywhere in my pocket. Then when i have an idea about a task to do i can throw it immediately for doing it as soon as possible. Fo notes I use a A4 note book I use to work every day. Then When I have to do something I can always look a my notes even if they are uneasy to find sometime.
" I don't myself see that there is a conflict between electronic and physical."
"the essential point is that they complement each other, rather than exclude each other".
I guess you are right. On my own experience I found easy to create my "project" in the meaning of GTD. Ie all what is at least 2 tasks. I try to organize these project digitally and for the moment did not find the good way to do it except a file containing all my documents about each project.
If anybody has any idea about this I would be very please about it !
So yes Electronic is helpful to follow and complete these "projects" but for my time management list i love it on paper and more i use now a small 11X17 cm paper note book 192 pages i can carry anywhere in my pocket. Then when i have an idea about a task to do i can throw it immediately for doing it as soon as possible. Fo notes I use a A4 note book I use to work every day. Then When I have to do something I can always look a my notes even if they are uneasy to find sometime.
February 6, 2011 at 12:56 |
FocusGuy.

Alan:
<< You consider that organizing personal project materials has nothing to do with this website. I was mistaken in supposing it would be included under "personal organization". >>
Sorry to take so long to reply to this, but I have had to re-read the entire thread to see what on earth I might have said which led you to this conclusion - but without success.
<< You consider that organizing personal project materials has nothing to do with this website. I was mistaken in supposing it would be included under "personal organization". >>
Sorry to take so long to reply to this, but I have had to re-read the entire thread to see what on earth I might have said which led you to this conclusion - but without success.
February 6, 2011 at 13:43 |
Mark Forster

I wrote that your site slogan implied that project management was on topic here. You replied over several posts that such had nothing to do with time management. I tried to get you to answer about the personal organization aspect, but you insisted that organizing projects was just "a task" that wasn't yours to advise, any more than child rearing.
So i inferred the conclusion I wrote. If you believe otherwise I'd appreciate a positive assertion that might clear up this confusion I have. ( Btw when I speak of project management, I never had in mind large scale budgeting, estimating, coordinating, resource management. Perhaps that was your assumption?)
So i inferred the conclusion I wrote. If you believe otherwise I'd appreciate a positive assertion that might clear up this confusion I have. ( Btw when I speak of project management, I never had in mind large scale budgeting, estimating, coordinating, resource management. Perhaps that was your assumption?)
February 6, 2011 at 14:06 |
Alan Baljeu

There seems to be an immense amount of disagreement on this thread, not helped by the fact that a lot of extraneous elements have been introduced.
For the record, my view is that I prefer bound notebooks to loose-leaf ones because I believe that loose-leaf notebooks encourage people to complicate time management by trying to combine it with project management. This tends to result in over-management of projects which don't need it and under-management of projects which do.
My view is that project management is a separate discipline from time management, and that differing projects need differing degrees of management.
Project management decides what tasks need doing for a particular project. Time management is then used to get the tasks done. Managing a project in itself requires certain tasks (planning, reviewing, recording, etc) which time management also is used to get done.
The time management system and the project management system should be independent of each other. In other words any time management system should be able to be used with any project management system.
Also for the record, I withdraw any of my statements in this thread which may have given the impression to certain people that I think:
1) that loose-leaf paper has mystical properties of enchantment against which human beings are completely powerless.
2) that having a separate project management system means that only tasks not in the project management system get processed by the time management system.
3) that "personal organisation" does not include the organisation of personal projects.
For the record, my view is that I prefer bound notebooks to loose-leaf ones because I believe that loose-leaf notebooks encourage people to complicate time management by trying to combine it with project management. This tends to result in over-management of projects which don't need it and under-management of projects which do.
My view is that project management is a separate discipline from time management, and that differing projects need differing degrees of management.
Project management decides what tasks need doing for a particular project. Time management is then used to get the tasks done. Managing a project in itself requires certain tasks (planning, reviewing, recording, etc) which time management also is used to get done.
The time management system and the project management system should be independent of each other. In other words any time management system should be able to be used with any project management system.
Also for the record, I withdraw any of my statements in this thread which may have given the impression to certain people that I think:
1) that loose-leaf paper has mystical properties of enchantment against which human beings are completely powerless.
2) that having a separate project management system means that only tasks not in the project management system get processed by the time management system.
3) that "personal organisation" does not include the organisation of personal projects.
February 6, 2011 at 14:09 |
Mark Forster

Alan:
It's rather difficult for me to reply to this as I can't find any post in which I made a reference to "child rearing".
As I can't relate what you are saying to any post I made, perhaps you could quote the entire passage you are referring to.
[afternote: I think I've found the one you were referring to. See my next comment.]
It's rather difficult for me to reply to this as I can't find any post in which I made a reference to "child rearing".
As I can't relate what you are saying to any post I made, perhaps you could quote the entire passage you are referring to.
[afternote: I think I've found the one you were referring to. See my next comment.]
February 6, 2011 at 14:18 |
Mark Forster

Best line in the thread so far:
"that loose-leaf paper has mystical properties of enchantment against which human beings are completely powerless."
"that loose-leaf paper has mystical properties of enchantment against which human beings are completely powerless."
February 6, 2011 at 14:30 |
DS

Alan:
On re-reading the thread again, I suppose you must be referring to the following post. My search function didn't find it because you used different words.
QUOTE------------
Alan:
<< organizing the information and activities is my personal responsibility >>
And so is looking after your family and your health and many other things. But that doesn't mean that time management teaches you how to bring up your children or keep fit.
END OF QUOTE----------------
This posting refers to the separation between time management and project management.
It's got nothing to do with what's on topic on this website.
Nor does it say anything about what I might or might not attempt to teach you.
It's about what is suitable for a TIME management system as opposed to a PROJECT management system.
On re-reading the thread again, I suppose you must be referring to the following post. My search function didn't find it because you used different words.
QUOTE------------
Alan:
<< organizing the information and activities is my personal responsibility >>
And so is looking after your family and your health and many other things. But that doesn't mean that time management teaches you how to bring up your children or keep fit.
END OF QUOTE----------------
This posting refers to the separation between time management and project management.
It's got nothing to do with what's on topic on this website.
Nor does it say anything about what I might or might not attempt to teach you.
It's about what is suitable for a TIME management system as opposed to a PROJECT management system.
February 6, 2011 at 14:45 |
Mark Forster

Much clearer. Thanks. Now, going back to my original post on the topic, i said project management fits the site's scope, but hasn't been a focus for the last while.
February 6, 2011 at 15:00 |
Alan Baljeu

Alan:
<< i said project management fits the site's scope, but hasn't been a focus for the last while. >>
This is correct. But it wasn't relevant to the subject under discussion - the desirability or otherwise of trying to combine a time management system with a project management system.
<< i said project management fits the site's scope, but hasn't been a focus for the last while. >>
This is correct. But it wasn't relevant to the subject under discussion - the desirability or otherwise of trying to combine a time management system with a project management system.
February 6, 2011 at 15:10 |
Mark Forster

Mark,
So to project management....do you still use the approaches that you had discussed some time ago -- in DIT days? Adding statements to your list like "Project A" in some cases, which would trigger one then to work directly off of the project support files....and in some cases, add specific project tasks to your list like "review recent planning document for Project A"?
-David
So to project management....do you still use the approaches that you had discussed some time ago -- in DIT days? Adding statements to your list like "Project A" in some cases, which would trigger one then to work directly off of the project support files....and in some cases, add specific project tasks to your list like "review recent planning document for Project A"?
-David
February 6, 2011 at 15:34 |
David Drake

David:
Yes, absolutely. I've always said consistently that one should enter tasks at the level which works best for that particular task and that mixing levels, even for the same task, is perfectly ok.
In view of the recent discussion about the length of task descriptions, these days I'd probably rephrase that last task as:
"Project A Planning?"
Yes, absolutely. I've always said consistently that one should enter tasks at the level which works best for that particular task and that mixing levels, even for the same task, is perfectly ok.
In view of the recent discussion about the length of task descriptions, these days I'd probably rephrase that last task as:
"Project A Planning?"
February 6, 2011 at 15:43 |
Mark Forster

We haven't had such an engaging and rambling discussion since Mike left. It's been good. And to me Mark's thoughts today have been especially invocative.
February 6, 2011 at 18:21 |
Alan Baljeu

I second what Alan just said.
February 6, 2011 at 18:24 |
Tijl Kindt

Very good, Mark. Thanks! This is what I have been doing with AF4R on my projects. And thanks for your comments on my digital/paper situation. It just seems as if EVERYTHING is digital these days....to the point that it is driving this old professor crazy. Don't get me wrong -- I actively embrace and love technology and gadgets....my laboratories are full of them. But surely in our digital world there is still a little room to write things down?
-David
-David
February 6, 2011 at 18:43 |
David Drake

wow, other people who are obsessive about lists and organisaton! The joys of the internet!
I whole heartedly agree with Mark, and find that loose leaf requires too much of a "system" to work and as a result I spend more time trying to find the right system than completing the lists or using the lists. I have tried it many times but always end up reverting to a more organic variety of notebooks, which leave more room for creativity and inspiration somehow... though i know not how.
Funny because i came across this site googling for a (fun rather than practical) notebook I saw in a gift shop that had a different page for each type of list (ie places you had lived, boyfriends and pets you had had etc) but reflecting on what I have just written I would probably never use it! But I never stop trying to find ways of organising thoughts usefully...
I whole heartedly agree with Mark, and find that loose leaf requires too much of a "system" to work and as a result I spend more time trying to find the right system than completing the lists or using the lists. I have tried it many times but always end up reverting to a more organic variety of notebooks, which leave more room for creativity and inspiration somehow... though i know not how.
Funny because i came across this site googling for a (fun rather than practical) notebook I saw in a gift shop that had a different page for each type of list (ie places you had lived, boyfriends and pets you had had etc) but reflecting on what I have just written I would probably never use it! But I never stop trying to find ways of organising thoughts usefully...
March 13, 2012 at 21:10 |
jane

Hi Jane! Welcome to the club :-)
Mark Forster has just released his "Final Version" time management system, so you'll find everyone has shifted over to the new FV forum to discuss it. You're welcome to join in there. (I suppose after the excitement tempers (which could be a couple months!) more action will return to the general forum.
Mark Forster has just released his "Final Version" time management system, so you'll find everyone has shifted over to the new FV forum to discuss it. You're welcome to join in there. (I suppose after the excitement tempers (which could be a couple months!) more action will return to the general forum.
March 14, 2012 at 14:30 |
Alan Baljeu

Very helpful post for me, thanks for 'bumping it up'.
March 14, 2012 at 19:29 |
Leon

Instead of notebooks is anyone using Evernote. I have it on my computer and Android phone and it works perfect for lists along with keep track of articles, to do , calendar, and a thousand uses to store snipets from articles from the web. So i basically can carry everything with me on my phone. No need for notebooks loose leaf or otherwise.
Lladro
Lladro
March 15, 2012 at 17:49 |
Lladro@Lladro Figurines

Many use EverNote, include our host, though generally for information other than a todo list. Some here likewise use OneNote for general stuff and for task management. I'm one of those, but I also like a bound paper notebook at home.
March 15, 2012 at 20:06 |
Alan Baljeu

After all my hard words about looseleaf books, I found myself using one in the final stages of testing FV (as you can see from the photos of the FV list I posted a while back).
I found it preferable to a bound book for a number of reasons:
1) It was easier for removing and filing the old list when I needed to start a new variation.
2) I could remove finished pages and just have active pages in the folder.
3) I could get to the end of the list much quicker because i only added blank pages as I needed them.
4) I only wrote on one side of a page, which made moving through the list very fast.
I allowed nothing else in the folder - no notes, no project documentation, no schedules, no nothing - because all the advantages in 1-4 above vanished if I did.
I found it preferable to a bound book for a number of reasons:
1) It was easier for removing and filing the old list when I needed to start a new variation.
2) I could remove finished pages and just have active pages in the folder.
3) I could get to the end of the list much quicker because i only added blank pages as I needed them.
4) I only wrote on one side of a page, which made moving through the list very fast.
I allowed nothing else in the folder - no notes, no project documentation, no schedules, no nothing - because all the advantages in 1-4 above vanished if I did.
March 16, 2012 at 1:05 |
Mark Forster

Reading this thread at first, I was mystified by the objection to loose leaf. I definitely prefer loose leaf, because there is all sorts of information that I need to carry around with me in paper form, and I need it to be flexible and not weigh a ton. I had been using a planner-size binder, but recently switched to the solid ring-style system (like the Levenger Circa, or the Myndology -- it's the Staple's Arc system, which is available locally and much more affordable). This works perfectly for me. It's flexible, yet it fits in my bag or briefcase.
I'm sure that some people would be tempted to tweak and rearrange and whatnot, but I don't personally have a problem with this. Everyone is different. Some dieters cannot have candy around because if it's available, they will lose all control. Others can indulge in one piece, and they're fine.
I see what Mark means, though, about having the FV list in a separate notebook. On the second day of using FV, I made up a little reporter-style pocket notebook using extra rings I had from my planner setup, and punched some 3x5 cards. For some reason, it helps to have this list in a separate book from the calendar and project support pages and information pages, etc.
I am quickly getting items crossed off, and will be able to remove cards when they are no longer active. This will make it easier to scan the list and it will keep the booklet down to a reasonable size. I can add pages as needed, of course.
I do use bound Moleskine-type books for some things, like a journal of books read, and other records I like to keep. But for the stuff I carry around with me, loose leaf is the only way to go.
I'm sure that some people would be tempted to tweak and rearrange and whatnot, but I don't personally have a problem with this. Everyone is different. Some dieters cannot have candy around because if it's available, they will lose all control. Others can indulge in one piece, and they're fine.
I see what Mark means, though, about having the FV list in a separate notebook. On the second day of using FV, I made up a little reporter-style pocket notebook using extra rings I had from my planner setup, and punched some 3x5 cards. For some reason, it helps to have this list in a separate book from the calendar and project support pages and information pages, etc.
I am quickly getting items crossed off, and will be able to remove cards when they are no longer active. This will make it easier to scan the list and it will keep the booklet down to a reasonable size. I can add pages as needed, of course.
I do use bound Moleskine-type books for some things, like a journal of books read, and other records I like to keep. But for the stuff I carry around with me, loose leaf is the only way to go.
March 18, 2012 at 21:10 |
Sarah J

When I am working my list, I can action individual tasks that happen to be related to my projects without consideration for how the overall project is progressing.
When I review my project plans, I can update which tasks from my plan have been completed and what is required to happen next, and add it to my task system if it's my responsibility to perform.