Discussion Forum > War and Peace - A Thought Experiment
Dont expect it would facilitate you or me Laurence, thats for sure!
March 2, 2011 at 16:06 |
Meryl
Meryl
If you put "write a novel" in column 2, presumably you'd have to keep working on it at least a little bit every page, in which case you would end up getting quite a bit of writing done.
March 2, 2011 at 17:37 |
Don R
Don R
@Don R : It's a Bingo ! Now we know how and why Hugo, Tolstoy and Proust wrote such long novels ! They were using SF3 already ! Mark probably figured out the rules of the system by getting hints out of his reading of War and Peace !
March 2, 2011 at 17:53 |
Daouda
Daouda
I'm guessing AF1 & DWM are more likely to encourage writing the novel. I'm also guessing Tolstoy let a lot of "urgent" tasks pass him by.
@Meryl: You never know till you try!
@Meryl: You never know till you try!
March 2, 2011 at 23:07 |
Laurence
Laurence
<<I would ask if Tolstoy, armed with SF3 notepad, would have written War and Peace.>>
I don't know about Tolstoy, but I've recorded and released 4 albums, all done without any systems. My hunch is that most, if not all of my favorite artists, use nothing more than a simple to-do list to capture their ideas. Inspiration and discipline lead the way.
And yet, I'm here. In 2000, while planning a record label and recording studio for at-risk youth, someone suggested I read Covey's 7 Habits. I've been a fan of systems ever since.
Still, I get upset thinking about the amount of time I've spent on creating, hacking and reading about systems. Eh, it's healthier than a Meth habit.
I don't know about Tolstoy, but I've recorded and released 4 albums, all done without any systems. My hunch is that most, if not all of my favorite artists, use nothing more than a simple to-do list to capture their ideas. Inspiration and discipline lead the way.
And yet, I'm here. In 2000, while planning a record label and recording studio for at-risk youth, someone suggested I read Covey's 7 Habits. I've been a fan of systems ever since.
Still, I get upset thinking about the amount of time I've spent on creating, hacking and reading about systems. Eh, it's healthier than a Meth habit.
March 3, 2011 at 1:29 |
avrum
avrum
In reference to Tolstoy, Proust, et al, the question is not is it possible to have a creative output without SF, it is whether it could help you write [something like] a War and Peace as much as it helped Mark read it. I don't see why not.
March 3, 2011 at 1:57 |
Don R
Don R
<<it is whether it could help you write [something like] a War and Peace as much as it helped Mark read it.>>
It is often said if you want to establish a habit, goal, etc., make it public, with a serious consequence if you fail. I'd say Mark's public pronouncement of a new system, and his testing of said system with War and Peace, had more to do with his success than the system itself.
For more on this:
http://www.amazon.com/Carrots-Sticks-Unlock-Incentives-Things/dp/0553807633/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1299123216&sr=8-1
It is often said if you want to establish a habit, goal, etc., make it public, with a serious consequence if you fail. I'd say Mark's public pronouncement of a new system, and his testing of said system with War and Peace, had more to do with his success than the system itself.
For more on this:
http://www.amazon.com/Carrots-Sticks-Unlock-Incentives-Things/dp/0553807633/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1299123216&sr=8-1
March 3, 2011 at 3:35 |
avrum
avrum
Quite possibly that's true. Just reading for a solid month is easily doable by anyone sufficiently committed. Ditto any other single task. The challenge then is not to tackle a major project, but to get everything done even as you pour all your energy into the project.
March 3, 2011 at 4:11 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
I think I have spotted the weakpoint of AF and its successors.
They force you to focus.
Yes, this is the weakpoint.
I realized I wanted a system which was transparent, that would tell me what to do and when when I am in the right context, without having to think if I should do it or not whatsoever, but AFs asks you to consider every task so you NEED to FOCUS in the first place.
I also realized that this entry point was a wall for me after some time dealing with the system. This first entry point is where there is the most resistence.
So Autofocus/Superfocus works exactly as advertized, making you focus on what you have to do, and by extension on what you do, but it is also its weakpoint since you don't need to focus for about half of the tasks (buy this when coming back home, check that every morning etc...), and it is very poor at handling the contexts (I have 3 contexts but my work and home contexts have not enough tasks to be treated like a system, and since I need to be able to check easily I can't put them on my "everywhere" SAF3 list.
That said the system works very well to help you achieve your tasks, the problem is you have to deal at a time or another with the resistance to check your system itself.
At least this is my problem right now. But the reason may be the fact that I have too few tasks (I have 5 active pages but just 3 or 4 tasks on the first 3, maybe less than 12 on the 4th and 5th. So the pressure to achieve high resistance tasks is very strong.
I guess I shoud add a lot of fun tasks to make all this a lot easier to get in. Yes, maybe this is the solution.
They force you to focus.
Yes, this is the weakpoint.
I realized I wanted a system which was transparent, that would tell me what to do and when when I am in the right context, without having to think if I should do it or not whatsoever, but AFs asks you to consider every task so you NEED to FOCUS in the first place.
I also realized that this entry point was a wall for me after some time dealing with the system. This first entry point is where there is the most resistence.
So Autofocus/Superfocus works exactly as advertized, making you focus on what you have to do, and by extension on what you do, but it is also its weakpoint since you don't need to focus for about half of the tasks (buy this when coming back home, check that every morning etc...), and it is very poor at handling the contexts (I have 3 contexts but my work and home contexts have not enough tasks to be treated like a system, and since I need to be able to check easily I can't put them on my "everywhere" SAF3 list.
That said the system works very well to help you achieve your tasks, the problem is you have to deal at a time or another with the resistance to check your system itself.
At least this is my problem right now. But the reason may be the fact that I have too few tasks (I have 5 active pages but just 3 or 4 tasks on the first 3, maybe less than 12 on the 4th and 5th. So the pressure to achieve high resistance tasks is very strong.
I guess I shoud add a lot of fun tasks to make all this a lot easier to get in. Yes, maybe this is the solution.
March 3, 2011 at 8:21 |
isd
isd
You found the right solution. As for those other contexts, you don't need a system; only a blank page. Write work stuff on one page. Use a system only when a context won't fit a page. Don't mix contexts, other than to enter "go there"
as for AF's problem, You seem to say, in essence, the problem is that you have to use the system. I don't think concentration is actually necessary. Just read through and pick. Having a few easy options definitely helps here.
as for AF's problem, You seem to say, in essence, the problem is that you have to use the system. I don't think concentration is actually necessary. Just read through and pick. Having a few easy options definitely helps here.
March 3, 2011 at 13:20 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
I think writing a novel (and I think there are some novelists on this board who could weigh in), is too individual a creative process to test SF with. Some novelists take years working intermittently, some are like Trollope and wake every morning at 5:30 to write 250 words/hr for 4 hrs before going to the day job, or they're like Simenon who would get a full examination by his doctor and then lock himself in a room for 14 days straight with minimal food, drink, or sleep to pound out a novel in one go (by which time he'd pushed his body to its limits).
In that sense, you need a calendar to block out the time needed to sit and write. SF isn't needed for that.
SF could be used to handle the "business of life" tasks and perhaps free up one's creative consciousness so that one isn't bothered by undone tasks when sitting down to write, but I don't see that it would be all that helpful for writing a novel, or managing any large, sprawling project, for that matter.
In that sense, you need a calendar to block out the time needed to sit and write. SF isn't needed for that.
SF could be used to handle the "business of life" tasks and perhaps free up one's creative consciousness so that one isn't bothered by undone tasks when sitting down to write, but I don't see that it would be all that helpful for writing a novel, or managing any large, sprawling project, for that matter.
March 3, 2011 at 19:02 |
Mike Brown
Mike Brown
"SF could be used to handle the "business of life""
Perhaps I'm just an all-or-nothing kinda guy, but I'm looking for a system to handle it all. I believe Mark's systems have that potential. As do GTD, 7 Habits and of course, just winging it.
Perhaps it's a matter of choosing a system that provides some degree of support (organization i.e. 43 folders), pressure (dismissal) and meaning (Sharpen the Saw). I'm a sucker for nostalgia and journaling, so I incorporate that into my work-flow.
Perhaps I'm just an all-or-nothing kinda guy, but I'm looking for a system to handle it all. I believe Mark's systems have that potential. As do GTD, 7 Habits and of course, just winging it.
Perhaps it's a matter of choosing a system that provides some degree of support (organization i.e. 43 folders), pressure (dismissal) and meaning (Sharpen the Saw). I'm a sucker for nostalgia and journaling, so I incorporate that into my work-flow.
March 3, 2011 at 19:15 |
avrum
avrum
The big names in the world, none of them use a standard system, but they all have one. I believe a good answer is to take what you know and learned and run with it. Sculpt the pieces into your own system.
March 3, 2011 at 19:49 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
SF (and previous AF/DWM systems) have certainly been helpful for me to manage my own work in relation to managing large sprawling projects. Maybe it's not for everybody, I'd bet someone could use SF to write a novel. I'd bet Mark would use it to manage his work in writing an SF book if he ever does write one.
March 4, 2011 at 0:34 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
isd wrote:
<<< They force you to focus. (etc.) >>>
I get drawn to my SF list because it gets me "in the zone". I like that feeling. I may feel muddled and tired, and sometimes I may resist my list because I know there's something there I'd rather not deal with. But if I just flit around and don't really follow a system, doing this and that, usually I just end up feeling more muddled. Finally, to get my sense of balance back, I turn to my list. I finally remember that I only have to take some small action -- the system isn't demanding that I FINISH any of those awful tasks. So this gets me started again, and I slowly get back "into the zone".
<<< They force you to focus. (etc.) >>>
I get drawn to my SF list because it gets me "in the zone". I like that feeling. I may feel muddled and tired, and sometimes I may resist my list because I know there's something there I'd rather not deal with. But if I just flit around and don't really follow a system, doing this and that, usually I just end up feeling more muddled. Finally, to get my sense of balance back, I turn to my list. I finally remember that I only have to take some small action -- the system isn't demanding that I FINISH any of those awful tasks. So this gets me started again, and I slowly get back "into the zone".
March 4, 2011 at 0:40 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
@Alan
Thanks Yes I think I will keep a simple todo list for work and home, and put a task(or several) in SAF asking to check the list.
By the way, since yesterday I started putting every task I was thinking of and I realized there were a lot of tasks that I was keeping in my head instead of writing them and they blocked me.
I also decided to work for 2 minutes on any task (if the task is pleasant I can work on it as long as I want, but I decided to create the 2 minutes rule for the tasks I don't really want to do, and this works more or less).
You may be right for the concentration, I thought it was necessary and this was blocking me as well, so now I try to look at the list without thinking too much.
@seraphim
Yes, the zone. I managed to get back to it today :D
And you're right it is because I decided to do just a bit, just 1 minute of something and then It began flowing again.
---
As for writing a novel I am using SAF for this and also research and shopping as well..
I could block time for artistic work but I realized that when I write for example I often need to rest or just do something else for a few minutes here and there... In fact, concentration is not a continuous thing but is rather a fragmented thing, and SAF is perfect for dealing with this. When you think you need rest, just take your SAF list and do one or two things, or just start something, then go back to your main work (which should be written on the C2 of the next page. I guess Mark created SAF3 precisely for such a purpose ;)
Thanks Yes I think I will keep a simple todo list for work and home, and put a task(or several) in SAF asking to check the list.
By the way, since yesterday I started putting every task I was thinking of and I realized there were a lot of tasks that I was keeping in my head instead of writing them and they blocked me.
I also decided to work for 2 minutes on any task (if the task is pleasant I can work on it as long as I want, but I decided to create the 2 minutes rule for the tasks I don't really want to do, and this works more or less).
You may be right for the concentration, I thought it was necessary and this was blocking me as well, so now I try to look at the list without thinking too much.
@seraphim
Yes, the zone. I managed to get back to it today :D
And you're right it is because I decided to do just a bit, just 1 minute of something and then It began flowing again.
---
As for writing a novel I am using SAF for this and also research and shopping as well..
I could block time for artistic work but I realized that when I write for example I often need to rest or just do something else for a few minutes here and there... In fact, concentration is not a continuous thing but is rather a fragmented thing, and SAF is perfect for dealing with this. When you think you need rest, just take your SAF list and do one or two things, or just start something, then go back to your main work (which should be written on the C2 of the next page. I guess Mark created SAF3 precisely for such a purpose ;)
March 4, 2011 at 2:36 |
isd
isd
As others have suggested, the problems that arise in these systems are often down to over-commitment, and facing that can be difficult.
SF3 can, by test, facilitate reading War and Peace. Would it have been able to facilitate writing it? Perhaps, with carefully worded tasks, but I'm not sure.