Discussion Forum > A critique of list-making systems i.e. GTD, AF
Thank you for inspiring a tweak to my list making system :-)
Totally agree with the quote. The trick is to put more emphasis on the big important projects while not neglecting the small things..
Totally agree with the quote. The trick is to put more emphasis on the big important projects while not neglecting the small things..
August 15, 2011 at 20:59 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Completion-centric planning sounds good, but does it really deliver the goods for the average person?
I have no doubt that, as the author of the article claims, it is the way many really accomplished people work. On the other hand I suspect that is about as relevant to the rest of us as the way a top opera singer trains would be to the member of a church choir or the way an Olympic athlete trains would be to people who just want a bit of exercise.
What most people want is not to be a highly specialised achiever, but to be reasonably good at the general business of living.
I have no doubt that, as the author of the article claims, it is the way many really accomplished people work. On the other hand I suspect that is about as relevant to the rest of us as the way a top opera singer trains would be to the member of a church choir or the way an Olympic athlete trains would be to people who just want a bit of exercise.
What most people want is not to be a highly specialised achiever, but to be reasonably good at the general business of living.
August 15, 2011 at 21:30 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Probably true, Mark. I'm looking for a little more. I think I can achieve
""an infinite task loop where I am consistently accomplishing big actions... and making steady progress toward completing the little projects"
""an infinite task loop where I am consistently accomplishing big actions... and making steady progress toward completing the little projects"
August 15, 2011 at 21:42 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
This doesn't really criticize the usefulness of a ubiquitous-capture/to-do list for keeping oneself organized. It's more of a plea for keeping a meta-list of important projects and focusing on finishing them. I think a lot of us do something similar, whether it's via goals&dreams self-dialogue, weekly reviews, or (my current favorite) making a side list of the Big Three tasks to do each day. In the latter case, my Big3 usually contain at least one task that moves an important project toward completion.
The interesting ideas here are the holding pen for entering new projects (not to be worked until the current list is complete), and the 1-week-minimum break as reward for finishing the 6-12 projects on the list. I'm not sure how realistic these ideas are. Priorities change. Sometimes what seemed like a brilliant plan one day appears stupid or a waste of time after some reflection. The author didn't address midstream modifications to the list, or exceptions to his rules.
When I was trying hard to follow the GTD paradigm, I attempted to organize many tasks ("next actions" [NAs]) within projects. Each project had to have at least one NA defined. I used active verb phrases to list NAs, and projects were all defined as noun phrases with passive verbs if necessary, so that the name of the project directly stated its finishing criterion. For example, "Article X submitted" was a project, with "Write draft 1st paragraph of Article X" as an NA. Focusing this way on very specific verb-oriented tasks and concrete noun-oriented criteria for project completion is helpful, but the rigor of the process can be somewhat joyless.
The interesting ideas here are the holding pen for entering new projects (not to be worked until the current list is complete), and the 1-week-minimum break as reward for finishing the 6-12 projects on the list. I'm not sure how realistic these ideas are. Priorities change. Sometimes what seemed like a brilliant plan one day appears stupid or a waste of time after some reflection. The author didn't address midstream modifications to the list, or exceptions to his rules.
When I was trying hard to follow the GTD paradigm, I attempted to organize many tasks ("next actions" [NAs]) within projects. Each project had to have at least one NA defined. I used active verb phrases to list NAs, and projects were all defined as noun phrases with passive verbs if necessary, so that the name of the project directly stated its finishing criterion. For example, "Article X submitted" was a project, with "Write draft 1st paragraph of Article X" as an NA. Focusing this way on very specific verb-oriented tasks and concrete noun-oriented criteria for project completion is helpful, but the rigor of the process can be somewhat joyless.
August 15, 2011 at 21:49 |
ubi
ubi
ubi:
<<...can be somewhat joyless. >>
Pretty much how I feel scanning a list in AF, DWM, etc. Let's be honest, scanning a list with "clean toilet", "call dentist", and discerning what "standing out" means i.e. guilt? excitement? fear?, can cause cognitive exhaustion.
Perhaps this is a problem with all list-making systems. Or life :)
As an aside, I love your comments. Curious, what are you using that brings more joy than GTD?
<<...can be somewhat joyless. >>
Pretty much how I feel scanning a list in AF, DWM, etc. Let's be honest, scanning a list with "clean toilet", "call dentist", and discerning what "standing out" means i.e. guilt? excitement? fear?, can cause cognitive exhaustion.
Perhaps this is a problem with all list-making systems. Or life :)
As an aside, I love your comments. Curious, what are you using that brings more joy than GTD?
August 15, 2011 at 22:12 |
avrum
avrum
As an aside, I had a Eureka moment at the gym.
If my #1 problem is accountability... GTD might be the solution. There's so much support, and tools, can't wait to try this: http://zendone.com/ ... just might provide the right amount of motivation and scaffolding for my projects.
If my #1 problem is accountability... GTD might be the solution. There's so much support, and tools, can't wait to try this: http://zendone.com/ ... just might provide the right amount of motivation and scaffolding for my projects.
August 15, 2011 at 22:24 |
avrum
avrum
avrum,
you asked: "What are you using that brings more joy than GTD?"
Currently, paper-notebook-based SuperFocus (v.3) with a couple of variations, plus the daily Big3 side list on a post-it. But since I rarely use Column 2, I will soon revert back to AF1 as Mark and others are doing. I just need to use up the last three pages of the current SF notebook…
The Big3 list is a bit of a hack, but I use it to identify when it's okay to consider that I've accomplished enough for today. I can always tick off more tasks, but I don't feel so anxious about the list. Sometimes, e.g. yesterday, I don't achieve all three, because I do a lot of work off-list, which means that I can tick off many other items that have been lurking on the list, when I return to the notebook.
you asked: "What are you using that brings more joy than GTD?"
Currently, paper-notebook-based SuperFocus (v.3) with a couple of variations, plus the daily Big3 side list on a post-it. But since I rarely use Column 2, I will soon revert back to AF1 as Mark and others are doing. I just need to use up the last three pages of the current SF notebook…
The Big3 list is a bit of a hack, but I use it to identify when it's okay to consider that I've accomplished enough for today. I can always tick off more tasks, but I don't feel so anxious about the list. Sometimes, e.g. yesterday, I don't achieve all three, because I do a lot of work off-list, which means that I can tick off many other items that have been lurking on the list, when I return to the notebook.
August 15, 2011 at 22:35 |
ubi
ubi
ubi:
<<Currently, paper-notebook-based SuperFocus>>
But does it bring your more joy? And if so, how? I'm asking because, back in my GTD days, many were employing the Big3 in conjunction with GTD.
<<Currently, paper-notebook-based SuperFocus>>
But does it bring your more joy? And if so, how? I'm asking because, back in my GTD days, many were employing the Big3 in conjunction with GTD.
August 15, 2011 at 23:42 |
avrum
avrum
avrum:
<< Let's be honest, scanning a list with "clean toilet", "call dentist", and discerning what "standing out" means i.e. guilt? excitement? fear?, can cause cognitive exhaustion. >>
Well, no, that's not what I find.
Having these annoying but necessary tasks under control on a list reduces cognitive exhaustion.
What causes exhaustion is having these tasks hovering over your head like a big black cloud which you daren't examine too closely - not to mention the constant toothache and smell of uncleaned toilets.
<< Let's be honest, scanning a list with "clean toilet", "call dentist", and discerning what "standing out" means i.e. guilt? excitement? fear?, can cause cognitive exhaustion. >>
Well, no, that's not what I find.
Having these annoying but necessary tasks under control on a list reduces cognitive exhaustion.
What causes exhaustion is having these tasks hovering over your head like a big black cloud which you daren't examine too closely - not to mention the constant toothache and smell of uncleaned toilets.
August 16, 2011 at 1:44 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
+JMJ+
avrum ,
That article practically launched my obsession into making AF-type lists that focus on finishing tasks:
http://www.markforster.net/blog/2010/10/26/my-favourite-time-management-system.html#item10309909
God bless.
avrum ,
That article practically launched my obsession into making AF-type lists that focus on finishing tasks:
http://www.markforster.net/blog/2010/10/26/my-favourite-time-management-system.html#item10309909
God bless.
August 16, 2011 at 6:23 |
nuntym
nuntym
I read this article a couple of month ago and always wondered how to integrate this system into SF3. I actually have a couple of (mostly private) projects without deadlines lingering in my list for months, if not longer. “Little and often” changed to “little and seldom”, since there were always more urgent things to do.
I’m currently trying the following: I have a list of private projects in more or less the same format Cal is describing in his article. Every morning I write in the current C2 list “PROJECTS HOME”. Before I can leave the page I have to work on least one of the projects, ideally on more. If I deem it necessary and want to do more on my private projects I write “PROJECTS HOME” in the next C2 list. Only if I’m satisfied with my work on these projects for the day I check this task off for good.
I’m currently trying the following: I have a list of private projects in more or less the same format Cal is describing in his article. Every morning I write in the current C2 list “PROJECTS HOME”. Before I can leave the page I have to work on least one of the projects, ideally on more. If I deem it necessary and want to do more on my private projects I write “PROJECTS HOME” in the next C2 list. Only if I’m satisfied with my work on these projects for the day I check this task off for good.
August 16, 2011 at 10:08 |
Christian G.
Christian G.
I agree about the tasks-for-the-sake-of-tasks dullness and futility; productivity without joy. My own response was to have part of my "Dreams" vision be about my inner state that I want to be in, regardless of tasks. I'm hoping that over time the tasks that stand out come into alignment with my goals of better internal states. That's what makes them stand out isn't it? Psychological readiness one might call it.
August 16, 2011 at 17:51 |
michael
michael
michael:
<< Psychological readiness one might call it. >>
That's exactly it. Tasks stand out when you are psychologically ready for them. That produces a sense of relaxation in which even the most difficult things become effortless.
The reason I'm now using AF1 rather than SF3 is that AF1 produces this effect better than SF3 does. SF3 may be theoretically more efficient, but it is not so psychologically effective.
Avrum's "guilt, excitement or fear" doesn't describe the process of standing out at all. It's more a sense of release, of letting go.
<< Psychological readiness one might call it. >>
That's exactly it. Tasks stand out when you are psychologically ready for them. That produces a sense of relaxation in which even the most difficult things become effortless.
The reason I'm now using AF1 rather than SF3 is that AF1 produces this effect better than SF3 does. SF3 may be theoretically more efficient, but it is not so psychologically effective.
Avrum's "guilt, excitement or fear" doesn't describe the process of standing out at all. It's more a sense of release, of letting go.
August 16, 2011 at 18:25 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Avrum/Alan:
<< ""an infinite task loop where I am consistently accomplishing big actions... and making steady progress toward completing the little projects" >>
It's important to remember both that big actions are made up of little actions, and that little actions taken together add up to big actions.
So Avrum's "Call Dentist" is one of many little actions which lead to the big attainment of Perfect Health. In the same way his "Clean Toilets" is part of the big attainment of "Beautifully Clean House". His graphic novel, as I expect he has discovered by now, is made up of thousands of little actions.
<< ""an infinite task loop where I am consistently accomplishing big actions... and making steady progress toward completing the little projects" >>
It's important to remember both that big actions are made up of little actions, and that little actions taken together add up to big actions.
So Avrum's "Call Dentist" is one of many little actions which lead to the big attainment of Perfect Health. In the same way his "Clean Toilets" is part of the big attainment of "Beautifully Clean House". His graphic novel, as I expect he has discovered by now, is made up of thousands of little actions.
August 16, 2011 at 18:31 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
...so a possible coaching question:
"Which actions am I psychologically ready to do?"
"Which actions am I psychologically ready to do?"
August 17, 2011 at 19:17 |
michael
michael
The reason I've not yet responded to this thread is that the "Completion-Centric..." article easily evokes a passionate multi-thousand word response.
I will attempt the short version:
1. Been there, done that!
2. It works wonderfully when you have no life.
3. Ultra-successful 20-somethings who have no kids do not realize that they have no life.
4. I was one of those, and I was to a "T" the disorganized over-achiever whose secret was to never ever let a project go until it was finished.
5. I laughed at my friends who made lists.
6. I am still grappling with AF's "dismissal" (see #4)
7. Completion-centered such-and-such led to my financial independence at age 32, just in time for my "family" phase of life. Unlike most of my cohorts, I actually want to have a life, which includes having some idea who my kids are before they graduate from high school.
8. My three close friends whom I admire for having gone in the creative direction which I am struggling to go ... they do not have children. When I describe my daily to life to them, their eyes glaze over. They have no idea what I'm talking about.
9. If you live to work, then forget AF/SF, and go grab all those projects in your little clutches, and stay up all night until they are done. If you work to live, you'd better find another way.
Well, I'd better stop writing, since I leave in 90 mintes to coach my son's soccer team!
To clarify, for anyone who genuinely does not want to have children, I do not believe that you "have no life." That statement applies to people whose Vision includes raising children.
Oh, I almost forgot!!
Here's the rub: those people who work heroic 12-hour blocks to completion, stay up 72 hours straight etc. (like me & those I worked with) ... they are terribly inefficient but massively in denial about it. Watch them during hour #7 of what will be a twelve-hour stint. They are crippled by avoidance behavior, perfectionism, over-analysis (or its opposite, running down a rabbit-trail prematurely) ... they are all emotion and no planning. That what is meant by "disorganized." They resist "little and often" with much mockery, but when they are forced to try it, they find it far more efficient. "Work smarter not harder," etc. Oh, did I say "they"? I meant "we."
I will attempt the short version:
1. Been there, done that!
2. It works wonderfully when you have no life.
3. Ultra-successful 20-somethings who have no kids do not realize that they have no life.
4. I was one of those, and I was to a "T" the disorganized over-achiever whose secret was to never ever let a project go until it was finished.
5. I laughed at my friends who made lists.
6. I am still grappling with AF's "dismissal" (see #4)
7. Completion-centered such-and-such led to my financial independence at age 32, just in time for my "family" phase of life. Unlike most of my cohorts, I actually want to have a life, which includes having some idea who my kids are before they graduate from high school.
8. My three close friends whom I admire for having gone in the creative direction which I am struggling to go ... they do not have children. When I describe my daily to life to them, their eyes glaze over. They have no idea what I'm talking about.
9. If you live to work, then forget AF/SF, and go grab all those projects in your little clutches, and stay up all night until they are done. If you work to live, you'd better find another way.
Well, I'd better stop writing, since I leave in 90 mintes to coach my son's soccer team!
To clarify, for anyone who genuinely does not want to have children, I do not believe that you "have no life." That statement applies to people whose Vision includes raising children.
Oh, I almost forgot!!
Here's the rub: those people who work heroic 12-hour blocks to completion, stay up 72 hours straight etc. (like me & those I worked with) ... they are terribly inefficient but massively in denial about it. Watch them during hour #7 of what will be a twelve-hour stint. They are crippled by avoidance behavior, perfectionism, over-analysis (or its opposite, running down a rabbit-trail prematurely) ... they are all emotion and no planning. That what is meant by "disorganized." They resist "little and often" with much mockery, but when they are forced to try it, they find it far more efficient. "Work smarter not harder," etc. Oh, did I say "they"? I meant "we."
August 17, 2011 at 20:13 |
Bernie
Bernie
Hey, I will say one nice thing about that article:
His "top project" chart is a nice way to organize ongoing projects to feed into a list like AutoFocus, to make real progress while having a life. I have used many versions of something like it, and I had just designed for myself another version of such a list a few days before this thread started.
So it is a great tool with many uses. I just take exception to the picture he is painting, in which success equals working in huge blocks and refusing to put things on hold.
A full life demands more flexibility. Aack! Must leave for soccer in 23 minutes ...
His "top project" chart is a nice way to organize ongoing projects to feed into a list like AutoFocus, to make real progress while having a life. I have used many versions of something like it, and I had just designed for myself another version of such a list a few days before this thread started.
So it is a great tool with many uses. I just take exception to the picture he is painting, in which success equals working in huge blocks and refusing to put things on hold.
A full life demands more flexibility. Aack! Must leave for soccer in 23 minutes ...
August 17, 2011 at 21:06 |
Bernie
Bernie
@Bernie - your comments about 'this works well if you have no life' feel spot on to me. This whole thread reminds me of the dark period when I worked for a large IT services provider (now swallowed up by HP). Their preferred employee profile was 'Ultra-successful 20-somethings who have no kids do not realize that they have no life', and it was a hellish environment if you were unlucky enough to have been subject to an outsourcing event, say, and didn't fit that profile. No flexibility was afforded, and this kind of completion focus, taken to an extreme, was the expected behaviour - the unofficial motto was 'we will pay you for 39 hours a week, but if you are not working at least 50-55 hours a week regularly plus more to meet deadlines then you are not working hard enough'.
As you say, life demands more flexibility than that - in the medium to long term, taking this approach to extremes is an excellent way to cause burnout in many people, or at the very least cause major relationship problems and a burning sense of resentment. As a way of keeping things on track, the projects list - which is also used in GTD, but with more of a collection focus rather than driving completion - looks like a good addition to the arsenal, but there has to be balance. Most people work to live - being in, or creating for yourself an environment where you are expected to live to work, can be a hellish experience.
As you say, life demands more flexibility than that - in the medium to long term, taking this approach to extremes is an excellent way to cause burnout in many people, or at the very least cause major relationship problems and a burning sense of resentment. As a way of keeping things on track, the projects list - which is also used in GTD, but with more of a collection focus rather than driving completion - looks like a good addition to the arsenal, but there has to be balance. Most people work to live - being in, or creating for yourself an environment where you are expected to live to work, can be a hellish experience.
August 18, 2011 at 11:54 |
Paul Taylor
Paul Taylor
Cannot one have both completion-focus and a healthy balance? Quoting the author:
"List 6 – 12 of the most important projects in your life. Pull from all three relevant spheres: professional (e.g., school or work related); personal (e.g., home, family, fitness); and extra (e.g., big projects like blogging, writing a book, starting a club)."
So he's not saying to neglect anything. He's saying in each sphere consider the most useful allocation of time. It matches what happens with vision-centered thinking, where big items don't get drowned by the small.
"List 6 – 12 of the most important projects in your life. Pull from all three relevant spheres: professional (e.g., school or work related); personal (e.g., home, family, fitness); and extra (e.g., big projects like blogging, writing a book, starting a club)."
So he's not saying to neglect anything. He's saying in each sphere consider the most useful allocation of time. It matches what happens with vision-centered thinking, where big items don't get drowned by the small.
August 18, 2011 at 12:24 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
@Alan Baljeu - I think that's what I meant. If one wants to use this technique then it is essential to ensure that balance is included from all aspects of life, and flexibility included. It goes wrong when there isn't balance, such as when either the individual places too much focus in one area or is pressed to work in that way by an employer. It's just that in my experience (and by the sound of it in Bernie's) this approach can easily go off-kilter and result in a 'no life' scenario. If the pressure is internal I'm not sure what might restore the balance; if the pressure is external then the individual may need to be very firm in pushing back to restore the balance. If this doesn't work then a major life change like a change of job may be the only solution, as it was in my case.
August 18, 2011 at 13:04 |
Paul Taylor
Paul Taylor
To be clear, what moved me about this post is how different it feels from AF, particularly when I watch demos of how people use the system. None of my proudest creative accomplishments would have been possible if I lived an Orthodox list-based system.
Of course, Orthodoxy with project-focus, or list-focus might be more of the problem than the system itself.
Of course, Orthodoxy with project-focus, or list-focus might be more of the problem than the system itself.
August 18, 2011 at 14:30 |
avrum
avrum
Great topic, about the link between process and outcomes. Dreams has helped me here.
An example: A few months ago I had a lot of niggly health tasks, mostly doctor's appointments, that I had let slide because they just seem to chew up a lot of time. But my life vision includes energy and health, so I found myself pulled to make these appointments and to include them on my "what's better" list and to do the associated online research on the health issues. As a result of these annoying appointments and the "time wasted" in doctor's offices, I've come up with some health changes that mean I have MORE energy than I have had in over a decade! I wake up in the mornings raring to go. And that's EXACTLY what my future vision stated.
Boring tasks, time consuming, lots of resistance... but when connected with the Dreams process, my vision, the what's better list.... Dream achieved!!
Now, instead of going to these appointments, I kept feeling tempted to push myself to work on my scholarship. That's more results-oriented. But in the end, it was exactly the right thing to do, because now I have the energy and motivation for my scholarship.
However, without Dreams, I also had the sense of facing a never ending checklist of tasks. And it did exhaust me. I think Dreams maintains the link between the little tasks and my ultimate vision for my life, so I can see how they contribute to my progress every day.
Having said all that, I'm still thinking that I want to keep the notion of 'completion' in my mind, too. I'm going to use http://idonethis.com/ just to stay aware, without pushing, of the end results I'm creating each day. It's different from my "what's better" list in that this focuses more on concrete achievements, milestones, and completions. More work -oriented.
An example: A few months ago I had a lot of niggly health tasks, mostly doctor's appointments, that I had let slide because they just seem to chew up a lot of time. But my life vision includes energy and health, so I found myself pulled to make these appointments and to include them on my "what's better" list and to do the associated online research on the health issues. As a result of these annoying appointments and the "time wasted" in doctor's offices, I've come up with some health changes that mean I have MORE energy than I have had in over a decade! I wake up in the mornings raring to go. And that's EXACTLY what my future vision stated.
Boring tasks, time consuming, lots of resistance... but when connected with the Dreams process, my vision, the what's better list.... Dream achieved!!
Now, instead of going to these appointments, I kept feeling tempted to push myself to work on my scholarship. That's more results-oriented. But in the end, it was exactly the right thing to do, because now I have the energy and motivation for my scholarship.
However, without Dreams, I also had the sense of facing a never ending checklist of tasks. And it did exhaust me. I think Dreams maintains the link between the little tasks and my ultimate vision for my life, so I can see how they contribute to my progress every day.
Having said all that, I'm still thinking that I want to keep the notion of 'completion' in my mind, too. I'm going to use http://idonethis.com/ just to stay aware, without pushing, of the end results I'm creating each day. It's different from my "what's better" list in that this focuses more on concrete achievements, milestones, and completions. More work -oriented.
August 18, 2011 at 15:05 |
silviastraka
silviastraka
Sylvia:
Thanks for the mention of idonethis. I've just signed up!
Thanks for the mention of idonethis. I've just signed up!
August 18, 2011 at 15:46 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
I believe the correct grammar here is "I done signed up." :)
August 18, 2011 at 22:08 |
DS
DS
... so you may also enjoy http://happyrambles.com/ (an online gratitude journal)
August 21, 2011 at 22:25 |
michael
michael
michael:
Thanks for the link, but I think one at a time is enough!
Thanks for the link, but I think one at a time is enough!
August 21, 2011 at 22:38 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
DS:
<< I believe the correct grammar here is "I done signed up." :) >>
And there I was wondering who Ido Nethis was.
<< I believe the correct grammar here is "I done signed up." :) >>
And there I was wondering who Ido Nethis was.
August 21, 2011 at 22:42 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
http://www.slideshare.net/charles_in_oz/auto-focus-1543619 has an autofocus presentation and example - stumbled over it while googling
August 23, 2011 at 19:05 |
michael
michael
michael:
Thanks, that's a good presentation. I hadn't seen it before.
Thanks, that's a good presentation. I hadn't seen it before.
August 23, 2011 at 19:24 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Just to report on my experiment of combining SF3 and Cal's approach (see my post from August 16): From 6 projects (one more I would normally allow) I started with 10 days ago, I knocked off 3, and 2 more are almost finished. And my SF3 list is not longer than before. What a success. For me this combination seems to be ideal.
August 23, 2011 at 20:41 |
Christian G.
Christian G.
Christian and all:
My new system (see Experimenting Again thread) majors on getting stuff finished, as well as keeping routine stuff up-to-date and new stuff processed quickly.
My new system (see Experimenting Again thread) majors on getting stuff finished, as well as keeping routine stuff up-to-date and new stuff processed quickly.
August 24, 2011 at 0:08 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
"...to fall into a infinite task loop where you are consistently accomplishing little actions... but making little progress toward completing the big projects"
http://www.scotthyoung.com/blog/2007/10/18/the-art-of-the-finish-how-to-go-from-busy-to-accomplished/
Back in the day, when first using AFs, I remember crossing a lot of my lists, but not making progress on my major projects.
Of course, I wasn't making much progress pre-AF, so drifting wasn't working either.
Curious to hear your responses to this article.