Discussion Forum > Learning how to drive - and maps vs GPS
Hmm... I'm not sure I follow your analogy. The only time management system which would act as a car or GPS telling you where to go would be one that produced random tasks which you then had to do.
But in all the time management systems that I have developed, and all those I am aware of developed by other people, you are making the choice of what to do next yourself. In effect you are acting as the GPS.
As an unrelated point, I've always found GPS's have exactly the opposite effect on me from what you report. They open up the area to me and enable me to get my bearings quickly. Mind you, my experience with a North American GPS is that the European ones are far superior - perhaps I was just unlucky in the one that came with my hire car!
But in all the time management systems that I have developed, and all those I am aware of developed by other people, you are making the choice of what to do next yourself. In effect you are acting as the GPS.
As an unrelated point, I've always found GPS's have exactly the opposite effect on me from what you report. They open up the area to me and enable me to get my bearings quickly. Mind you, my experience with a North American GPS is that the European ones are far superior - perhaps I was just unlucky in the one that came with my hire car!
September 25, 2011 at 17:56 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
I agree Mark, with your description of how your systems work. But Seraphim's analogy seems to fit in two places:
1) Many people hope for a GPS, and despair if the system doesn't give the right answer. Then again, if the system actually dictated action, people wouldn't like it.
2) The hype for systems feels as though the system is directing work. "exactly the right things are done".
1) Many people hope for a GPS, and despair if the system doesn't give the right answer. Then again, if the system actually dictated action, people wouldn't like it.
2) The hype for systems feels as though the system is directing work. "exactly the right things are done".
September 26, 2011 at 0:45 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Seraphim's analogy of GPS vs Maps does resonates with me too. If we mean using GPS in "while driving mode" only, that is.
When using maps for driving directions, we would almost always stop by road side to read the small prints/lines on the maps to decipher where we are and where we need to go. We can fold out the map to see the big picture from our origin to destination and all the places in between. It is not safe to do that while driving though. ;-)
When using GPS *while* driving, the GPS makers have simplified 3D views display/ instruction to just what you can easily and safely see while driving. Better still just *hear* instructions while driving, so your eyes can remain on the road.
However, if you stop by the road side you can use your GPS in more map-like modes. You can zoom/scroll/search to get better feel of where you are. Albeit the small <4" GPS screens does not compare very well with what you can see on a folded out 36" paper map. Using bigger Android/iPad tablets (7" or 10") as your GPS device does allow more map like feel.
Some GPS devices (like Garmin) do have display options that helps a bit more on spatial awareness of POI (Points of Interest) around you, while you drive. Options such as display more POIs, zoom levels, and POI search lists sorted by distance that updates while you drive.
PS: I'm a long time (since 2002) user of Garmin GPS devices. Also a map contributor to free community based GPS maps for Malaysia that is better than any commercial ones sold by Garmin. ;-)
When using maps for driving directions, we would almost always stop by road side to read the small prints/lines on the maps to decipher where we are and where we need to go. We can fold out the map to see the big picture from our origin to destination and all the places in between. It is not safe to do that while driving though. ;-)
When using GPS *while* driving, the GPS makers have simplified 3D views display/ instruction to just what you can easily and safely see while driving. Better still just *hear* instructions while driving, so your eyes can remain on the road.
However, if you stop by the road side you can use your GPS in more map-like modes. You can zoom/scroll/search to get better feel of where you are. Albeit the small <4" GPS screens does not compare very well with what you can see on a folded out 36" paper map. Using bigger Android/iPad tablets (7" or 10") as your GPS device does allow more map like feel.
Some GPS devices (like Garmin) do have display options that helps a bit more on spatial awareness of POI (Points of Interest) around you, while you drive. Options such as display more POIs, zoom levels, and POI search lists sorted by distance that updates while you drive.
PS: I'm a long time (since 2002) user of Garmin GPS devices. Also a map contributor to free community based GPS maps for Malaysia that is better than any commercial ones sold by Garmin. ;-)
September 26, 2011 at 3:55 |
sabre23t
sabre23t
Alan:
<< The hype for systems feels as though the system is directing work. "exactly the right things are done". >>
Yes, but the right things are done because the system provides a framework which provides the right balance between the rational and the intuitive for YOU to make the right decision.
<< The hype for systems feels as though the system is directing work. "exactly the right things are done". >>
Yes, but the right things are done because the system provides a framework which provides the right balance between the rational and the intuitive for YOU to make the right decision.
September 26, 2011 at 8:24 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
sabre23t:
I still don't think a GPS is the right analogy. A GPS takes you where you have decided to go, tells you where you are and can tell you where you've been, how many miles it was, how long it took, what speed you went, etc. But the one thing a GPS doesn't do is decide on your destination (though I have sometimes wished they had a "random destination" button so I could go for a mystery tour). That's in your control.
In the same way a good time management system assists you in getting to the destination(s) you have chosen, but you're the one making the ultimate decisions.
I still don't think a GPS is the right analogy. A GPS takes you where you have decided to go, tells you where you are and can tell you where you've been, how many miles it was, how long it took, what speed you went, etc. But the one thing a GPS doesn't do is decide on your destination (though I have sometimes wished they had a "random destination" button so I could go for a mystery tour). That's in your control.
In the same way a good time management system assists you in getting to the destination(s) you have chosen, but you're the one making the ultimate decisions.
September 26, 2011 at 8:35 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Seraphim:
<<If one uses a TM system like a GPS, maybe one is getting tasks done, "turning left" and "turning right" and even sometimes "arriving at your destination" - but not really getting a better feel for the entire landscape of one's work and priorities.>>
This is just what I've been thinking about. Are any of these TM systems suppose to help one keep in mind "the big picture"? Following lists leaves me feeling empty. Of late I tried the SF system, initially enjoyed it and then find myself dreading the lists and floating away from it so I can tune back into why I'm doing it in the first place (usually through journaling every morning). I worry that if I surrender to the SF process I will lose my connection with intuition which serves me well but I end up with a bunch of reminder notes everywhere.
I've taken up the practice of asking myself "What's Better Today?" which also works very well. I just feel like I'm missing something if I spend my time working tasks off a list. Does anyone else feel this way? Maybe I'm just in one big avoidance pattern!
<<If one uses a TM system like a GPS, maybe one is getting tasks done, "turning left" and "turning right" and even sometimes "arriving at your destination" - but not really getting a better feel for the entire landscape of one's work and priorities.>>
This is just what I've been thinking about. Are any of these TM systems suppose to help one keep in mind "the big picture"? Following lists leaves me feeling empty. Of late I tried the SF system, initially enjoyed it and then find myself dreading the lists and floating away from it so I can tune back into why I'm doing it in the first place (usually through journaling every morning). I worry that if I surrender to the SF process I will lose my connection with intuition which serves me well but I end up with a bunch of reminder notes everywhere.
I've taken up the practice of asking myself "What's Better Today?" which also works very well. I just feel like I'm missing something if I spend my time working tasks off a list. Does anyone else feel this way? Maybe I'm just in one big avoidance pattern!
September 26, 2011 at 14:22 |
bevp
bevp
bevp:
<< I worry that if I surrender to the SF process I will lose my connection with intuition which serves me well but I end up with a bunch of reminder notes everywhere. >>
It you end up with a bunch of reminder notes it doesn't sound as if your connection with intuition _is_ serving you that well.
If you are using a DIT/AF/SF task list it's important to include management-type tasks which allow you to see the wider picture. See http://www.markforster.net/blog/2008/2/21/project-management.html
<< I worry that if I surrender to the SF process I will lose my connection with intuition which serves me well but I end up with a bunch of reminder notes everywhere. >>
It you end up with a bunch of reminder notes it doesn't sound as if your connection with intuition _is_ serving you that well.
If you are using a DIT/AF/SF task list it's important to include management-type tasks which allow you to see the wider picture. See http://www.markforster.net/blog/2008/2/21/project-management.html
September 26, 2011 at 14:52 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
<< But the one thing a GPS doesn't do is decide on your destination (though I have sometimes wished they had a "random destination" button so I could go for a mystery tour).>>
That's why they invented geocaching! And the "mystery tour" aspect of it is my favorite part. See http://www.geocaching.com .
That's why they invented geocaching! And the "mystery tour" aspect of it is my favorite part. See http://www.geocaching.com .
September 26, 2011 at 17:30 |
Jeff N
Jeff N
I'll second that and raise it by proposing a "big picture" task. The link seems to suggest managing A, B, and C (whatever those are). It's also good to manage the big picture. What are the important things? What are my goals? Am I working on these enough? Am I emotionally balanced?
September 26, 2011 at 17:36 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
I am beginning to think TM is over rated in many people's minds. There seems to be a blur of TM and goal achievement. When people are not accomplishing the really big goals in their lives some tend to think it is a TM problem. But, most people have more than they can do and feel time management will change that. However, the best time managers are not the most successful people, in fact some of the worst time managers I have met are very successful. Success and motivation are very complicated matters and I think not all that correlated to time management. Personally, I have been more successful when using DO IT than any of my time management systems, as this is much more closely aligned toward goal achievement and narrowly focused.
Gerry
Gerry
September 26, 2011 at 22:12 |
Gerry
Gerry
Gerry:
<<I am beginning to think TM is over rated in many people's minds. There seems to be a blur of TM and goal achievement. >>
What evidence do you have for this statement?
<< in fact some of the worst time managers I have met are very successful.>>
Examples please.
<< Success and motivation are very complicated matters and I think not all that correlated to time management.>>
Is there any research to back this statement up?
<< Personally, I have been more successful when using DO IT than any of my time management systems, as this is much more closely aligned toward goal achievement and narrowly focused. >>
What is DO IT?
<<I am beginning to think TM is over rated in many people's minds. There seems to be a blur of TM and goal achievement. >>
What evidence do you have for this statement?
<< in fact some of the worst time managers I have met are very successful.>>
Examples please.
<< Success and motivation are very complicated matters and I think not all that correlated to time management.>>
Is there any research to back this statement up?
<< Personally, I have been more successful when using DO IT than any of my time management systems, as this is much more closely aligned toward goal achievement and narrowly focused. >>
What is DO IT?
September 26, 2011 at 22:38 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Gerry, I agree with you in most points. I even stated similar opinions in other thread - many people are expecting too much from time management system and the true is: what you put in, you get out. Perfect management of irrelevant tasks, not respecting inner values, strengths, and calls, can be effective, but not satisfactory in long-term horizon. I fully agree that success and motivation are connected with many different personality aspects and are very very complicated. And I personally know very successful people (several artists and scientists) who do not use any complicated TM system, because they are single-focused on their area and they do not need to consider many different goals, areas and different visions. They are talented + just do this one thing which attracts them most. Only one or two things usually. UNLIKE me - and that is why time management is so important for me. For me, it is not only mean of motivation, but also of balance. In case I would have only one or two key areas/goals in my life, I can imagine to go there successfully without elaborate TM system, just with calendar and maybe plain to-do list. But when balance, different roles and competing goals and wishes which exceed ten times your time possibilities are at stake, it is different situation and good TM system is terribly needed. At least for me.
September 26, 2011 at 22:59 |
Daneb
Daneb
<<I am beginning to think TM is over rated in many people's minds. There seems to be a blur of TM and goal achievement. >>
What evidence do you have for this statement?
None, I have just seen several threads in forums where people think that by honing their TM skills they will be more successful. Some in fact may depending on their jobs and goals, however, I believe many will not
<< in fact some of the worst time managers I have met are very successful.>>
Examples please. I related the story in one of my ebooks about a former boss who had dozens of legal pads and old phone messages on his desk, which was piled high with stuff. He was chronically late, overworked and disorganized and a yet very successful and clients loved him. Employees did not. I am sure we all could find someone successful who is a terrible time manager.
<< Success and motivation are very complicated matters and I think not all that correlated to time management.>>
Is there any research to back this statement up? None I am aware of. I am basing it on my observations of some very successful people over the years who were not involved in any organized time management program and many of whom were in fact what most would consider disorganized and/or poor time managers,.
<< Personally, I have been more successful when using DO IT than any of my time management systems, as this is much more closely aligned toward goal achievement and narrowly focused. >>
What is DO IT?
My ebook Desired Outcomes Implementation Technology which is a simple goals program I designed and used in my own life. It is free on my blog.
http://www.simple-time-management.com
Thanks
Gerry
ps - how does one use the reply function to properly respond using quotes from a previous thread.
What evidence do you have for this statement?
None, I have just seen several threads in forums where people think that by honing their TM skills they will be more successful. Some in fact may depending on their jobs and goals, however, I believe many will not
<< in fact some of the worst time managers I have met are very successful.>>
Examples please. I related the story in one of my ebooks about a former boss who had dozens of legal pads and old phone messages on his desk, which was piled high with stuff. He was chronically late, overworked and disorganized and a yet very successful and clients loved him. Employees did not. I am sure we all could find someone successful who is a terrible time manager.
<< Success and motivation are very complicated matters and I think not all that correlated to time management.>>
Is there any research to back this statement up? None I am aware of. I am basing it on my observations of some very successful people over the years who were not involved in any organized time management program and many of whom were in fact what most would consider disorganized and/or poor time managers,.
<< Personally, I have been more successful when using DO IT than any of my time management systems, as this is much more closely aligned toward goal achievement and narrowly focused. >>
What is DO IT?
My ebook Desired Outcomes Implementation Technology which is a simple goals program I designed and used in my own life. It is free on my blog.
http://www.simple-time-management.com
Thanks
Gerry
ps - how does one use the reply function to properly respond using quotes from a previous thread.
September 26, 2011 at 23:14 |
Gerry
Gerry
Gerry:
<< how does one use the reply function to properly respond using quotes from a previous thread. >>
There's no automatic way of doing it. You have to copy and paste.
<< how does one use the reply function to properly respond using quotes from a previous thread. >>
There's no automatic way of doing it. You have to copy and paste.
September 26, 2011 at 23:29 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
I'm convinced Gerry's boss would have done better if a little more organized. Also, great people are often well disciplined and on top of things. To be great requires:
-exceptional virtue in one field.
-dedication to that virtue
-not being sabotaged by other failings
If so, excellent time management is not the key, but total lack of management can scuttle the works. Of course, greatness in the field of time management does require excellent time management skills, which has the pleasant side effect of a well-Managed day :-)
In business, I doubt your boss was completely incompetent at managing stuff. It requires vision, strategy, finance, people skills, research, production, marketing, sales, service, purchasing, and systems (however loosely defined) to manage all that. It is very challenging to balance these responsibilities and I bet a disorganized successful boss is a little bit organized somewhere. Yet he also has other qualities that make things even stronger.
-exceptional virtue in one field.
-dedication to that virtue
-not being sabotaged by other failings
If so, excellent time management is not the key, but total lack of management can scuttle the works. Of course, greatness in the field of time management does require excellent time management skills, which has the pleasant side effect of a well-Managed day :-)
In business, I doubt your boss was completely incompetent at managing stuff. It requires vision, strategy, finance, people skills, research, production, marketing, sales, service, purchasing, and systems (however loosely defined) to manage all that. It is very challenging to balance these responsibilities and I bet a disorganized successful boss is a little bit organized somewhere. Yet he also has other qualities that make things even stronger.
September 27, 2011 at 1:14 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Alan:
Yes, I agree with you. It's almost impossible to run a complex entity without being well organized. If you do somehow manage to get to a top position as a badly organized person, you are almost certain to be being "carried" by one or more people who are well organized. This may be one of the reasons why Gerry's boss was unpopular with his employees.
The two most successful bosses I ever worked for very both extremely well organized. I don't think they would have described what they were doing as time management though. It was more the ability to make decisions quickly so that things didn't hang around on their desks and communicate those decisions clearly to their staff. The staff on the other hand most definitely did need good time management. You couldn't get to the top job though without having shown your mettle as a staff worker.
Yes, I agree with you. It's almost impossible to run a complex entity without being well organized. If you do somehow manage to get to a top position as a badly organized person, you are almost certain to be being "carried" by one or more people who are well organized. This may be one of the reasons why Gerry's boss was unpopular with his employees.
The two most successful bosses I ever worked for very both extremely well organized. I don't think they would have described what they were doing as time management though. It was more the ability to make decisions quickly so that things didn't hang around on their desks and communicate those decisions clearly to their staff. The staff on the other hand most definitely did need good time management. You couldn't get to the top job though without having shown your mettle as a staff worker.
September 27, 2011 at 9:30 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
<<This may be one of the reasons why Gerry's boss was unpopular with his employees.>>
Ding Ding Ding.
Key word being one, there were certainly others.
Gerry
Ding Ding Ding.
Key word being one, there were certainly others.
Gerry
September 27, 2011 at 18:51 |
Gerry
Gerry
David Allen's flight analogy make sense here.
What we call Time Management is his landing-strip. What do I do at this instant?
There are some middle-levels which focus on day or month or year or decade, and a top level which focuses on "Why am I on this planet?"
All levels need to be worked on. If you fill your landing-strip (Mark's AF/SF lists) with tasks that are unrelated to the higher levels, you won't make progress at those higher levels. If you spend all your time focusing on the higher levels, you might know why you're on the planet but you won't have enough food in the fridge to keep you healthy so you can work on that purpose. Mark's Future Vision helps clarify this level.
I find when reading time and life management books, what stands out most is either what I need to hear at the moment (because that level needs work), or what the level I've focused on to the exclusion of the other levels. If I read a book that covers several levels a few years later, I'll see another part of their system.
What we call Time Management is his landing-strip. What do I do at this instant?
There are some middle-levels which focus on day or month or year or decade, and a top level which focuses on "Why am I on this planet?"
All levels need to be worked on. If you fill your landing-strip (Mark's AF/SF lists) with tasks that are unrelated to the higher levels, you won't make progress at those higher levels. If you spend all your time focusing on the higher levels, you might know why you're on the planet but you won't have enough food in the fridge to keep you healthy so you can work on that purpose. Mark's Future Vision helps clarify this level.
I find when reading time and life management books, what stands out most is either what I need to hear at the moment (because that level needs work), or what the level I've focused on to the exclusion of the other levels. If I read a book that covers several levels a few years later, I'll see another part of their system.
September 29, 2011 at 16:16 |
Cricket
Cricket
This suggests to me we should pursue higher levels incrementally. Never mind life-mission when you're struggling to get through the day. Master the day, and then set progressively larger visions when the present plan reveals limits that can be solved higher up.
Not sure about this.
Not sure about this.
September 29, 2011 at 16:31 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
<<Never mind life-mission when you're struggling to get through the day.>>
I don't think I agree with this. I have found times when I was not always in control of the day, yet very productive on my life goals. This led to my philosophy of time boxing for do it. You basically just set aside time for your life goal activities and work on them. I have a job where I could work constantly and unless I set boundaries and block our my job, I would never had time to pursue my life goals which are very different from my career.
Gerry
I don't think I agree with this. I have found times when I was not always in control of the day, yet very productive on my life goals. This led to my philosophy of time boxing for do it. You basically just set aside time for your life goal activities and work on them. I have a job where I could work constantly and unless I set boundaries and block our my job, I would never had time to pursue my life goals which are very different from my career.
Gerry
September 29, 2011 at 16:36 |
Gerry
Gerry
Time Boxing is a way of controlling at least part of the day. It's a low-level, rubber-on-the-road tool. Gerry then filled the box with life goals rather than short-term goals.
If he had looked at the goals but not created a time box for them, I doubt he would have made as much progress.
If he had looked at the goals but not created a time box for them, I doubt he would have made as much progress.
September 30, 2011 at 19:44 |
Cricket
Cricket
Example: I am teaching my daughter how to drive. I want her to learn the manual transmission ("stick shift") before she learns automatic - otherwise she may never learn how to drive manual at all.
After weeks of practice there are still occasional issues with remembering to release the brake; remembering not to pop the clutch; remembering to shift into first as you come to a stop sign, so you can immediately move forward again if the road is clear; etc.
Once you master how to control it, the automobile is such a wonderful "system" for getting from one place to another. There are no busses or trains out here in rural Arizona, and very few can walk or bike the large distances between towns out here, so the automobile really does empower people to live out here. Almost no one lived here before the advent of the automobile. (A/C helped too!)
But no one would imagine that the automobile itself should be making your choices for you about where to go or what route to take or how fast to get there. The driver still needs to do all that. The automobile simply empowers the driver to get there quickly. It also gives you far more options for where to go.
Likewise, a TM system shouldn't be making your choices for you. Once you master the system, the driver is the one who is in control. Like the car, the TM system should give you more options, open up possibilities for you, empower you -- not control you.
At first, with any of Mark's new systems, I would always follow the rules strictly, to learn the mechanics of it, and to figure out the kinks (like, "what happens if I shift directly from 1st gear into 3rd?", or "what happens if I stop in gear, but forget to engage the clutch?"). Like my daughter, I wouldn't be paying any attention to where I was actually going -- all my attention was on proper mechanical operation. But after awhile, the mechanics would become second nature, and then I could really focus on where I was going. I could also occasionally pause to give thought as to WHY the system was operating a certain way, and see if there were some more efficient way to operate it (e.g., deploying new ideas such as pointing your sidevew mirrors slightly outward -- you can't see the sides of your own vehicle, but you get a much better view of side traffic, and almost eliminate blind spots).
Another example: I've taken to using the TeleNav GPS on my Android phone when I'm driving in a new area. It's very convenient and saves time in the short run. But after a few months of doing this, I've realized there's a real downside. Previously, I would look up things on Google maps, maybe even print a map and take it with me. This gave me a very good feel for the spatial layout of the place, and after awhile I might not need any map at all. Now, skipping that step, and relying on the GPS, I just "turn left" and "turn right", and if the roads are curvy at all, I can easily lose my feel for where I am exactly , and how far I've gone in relation to my starting place. I can spend several days in a new town and never really get a feel for its general layout. I become *dependent* on the GPS. That especially becomes a problem when the GPS is *wrong* (or does that only happen to me???). LOL
If one uses a TM system like a GPS, maybe one is getting tasks done, "turning left" and "turning right" and even sometimes "arriving at your destination" - but not really getting a better feel for the entire landscape of one's work and priorities. Maybe we should expect our TM systems to operate more like a map, and less like a GPS. This would help us see all the appropriate choices, but still allow us be the ones who chose.
I think that's how Mark has designed his systems in the first place - to function as a map, not as a GPS. But some of us (including myself) have a tendency to put the system in the driver's seat. That's a problem with the driver - not with the system.