Discussion Forum > Here it is
How do you define "work" a page? Is it circulated through AF1 style?
As I understand it you work the two most recent pages and then three older pages, then back to the two most recent pages, then another three older pages, and so on.
The effect of this seems to be that older tasks get much less attention than the most immediately entered tasks. This may be very good for urgent and unfinished tasks, but it doesn't seem at first glance to do much for the more weighty and "resistable" tasks.
I know it's difficult to judge what a system would be like without trying it, but I think from my own experience that this would result in my doing lots of trivial easy tasks and neglecting the weighty ones.
I assume that it doesn't work like that for you, but I can't quite see why not!
As I understand it you work the two most recent pages and then three older pages, then back to the two most recent pages, then another three older pages, and so on.
The effect of this seems to be that older tasks get much less attention than the most immediately entered tasks. This may be very good for urgent and unfinished tasks, but it doesn't seem at first glance to do much for the more weighty and "resistable" tasks.
I know it's difficult to judge what a system would be like without trying it, but I think from my own experience that this would result in my doing lots of trivial easy tasks and neglecting the weighty ones.
I assume that it doesn't work like that for you, but I can't quite see why not!
October 8, 2011 at 1:18 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
To work one page, I quickly scan all tasks, then slowly scan again choosing stuff. Unlike AF1, I don't iterate. But I am flexible about this.
"older tasks get much less attention than the most immediately entered tasks. This may be very good for urgent and unfinished tasks, but it doesn't seem at first glance to do much for the more weighty and "resistable" tasks. "
Exactly right on all points.
"this would result in my doing lots of trivial easy tasks and neglecting the weighty ones."
Not my experience. First, because I'm already working hard on important tasks, doing some trivial tasks is a nice break. Second, if a weighty task is both important and resisted, I will view it often as it nears the backlog. I will experience both an aversion to doing the task, and a fear of it falling away. To resolve the tension, I'll pick it up and do something simple.
Net effect: the only tasks in the backlog are either low weight, or low urgency.
Caveat: if active pages times number of lines is too small, the pressure won't fully engage. 3 active pages is safer than 2.
"older tasks get much less attention than the most immediately entered tasks. This may be very good for urgent and unfinished tasks, but it doesn't seem at first glance to do much for the more weighty and "resistable" tasks. "
Exactly right on all points.
"this would result in my doing lots of trivial easy tasks and neglecting the weighty ones."
Not my experience. First, because I'm already working hard on important tasks, doing some trivial tasks is a nice break. Second, if a weighty task is both important and resisted, I will view it often as it nears the backlog. I will experience both an aversion to doing the task, and a fear of it falling away. To resolve the tension, I'll pick it up and do something simple.
Net effect: the only tasks in the backlog are either low weight, or low urgency.
Caveat: if active pages times number of lines is too small, the pressure won't fully engage. 3 active pages is safer than 2.
October 8, 2011 at 3:18 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Alan:
Obviously the system works for you and I'm not trying to shoot it down. What I'm struggling to understand is whether it would work for me (and by extension other readers of this website).
I enter and re-enter a lot of tasks per day - something like 80 in a full day. If the idea is not to re-iterate the pages but just do one pass through the page, it seems to be me that if I don't pick up a task on the first pass then it's quite likely to go straight into the backlog without getting another chance to be worked on.
That means that I either work on tasks immediately in the order in which they are written on the page or I accept that there is a strong possibility they won't be available to be worked on for some considerable time. I'm finding it difficult to understand what the advantages of doing this would be for me.
Obviously the system works for you and I'm not trying to shoot it down. What I'm struggling to understand is whether it would work for me (and by extension other readers of this website).
I enter and re-enter a lot of tasks per day - something like 80 in a full day. If the idea is not to re-iterate the pages but just do one pass through the page, it seems to be me that if I don't pick up a task on the first pass then it's quite likely to go straight into the backlog without getting another chance to be worked on.
That means that I either work on tasks immediately in the order in which they are written on the page or I accept that there is a strong possibility they won't be available to be worked on for some considerable time. I'm finding it difficult to understand what the advantages of doing this would be for me.
October 8, 2011 at 9:45 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
To be honest, I too have serious doubts whether it would work for anyone else :-)
It may depend on the other parts of my habit. E.g. Daily routines are not included, though they could be. Home and work are separate.
Two factors that you seem to have overlooked: Rule W is very important as it slows down page growth. Also, I expect 4+ passes through the active list per day, so even without W, less than 20 lines would be added per round.
Anyway, my experience is that by the time a page becomes backlogged, 3/4 of the tasks are gone. If that doesn't happen, you need more lines or pages. This suggests to me that if the numbers for you should be double mine: perhaps 30 lines per page, maybe 3 or 4 active pages. If anybody wants to try it, here's my suggestion:
Just start writing (but don't dump piles). Set the backlog transition when the oldest page seems ready. It will still be visited frequently, until you have several more. After a week the frequency of visits will get below daily, and soon the list should stop growing.
It may depend on the other parts of my habit. E.g. Daily routines are not included, though they could be. Home and work are separate.
Two factors that you seem to have overlooked: Rule W is very important as it slows down page growth. Also, I expect 4+ passes through the active list per day, so even without W, less than 20 lines would be added per round.
Anyway, my experience is that by the time a page becomes backlogged, 3/4 of the tasks are gone. If that doesn't happen, you need more lines or pages. This suggests to me that if the numbers for you should be double mine: perhaps 30 lines per page, maybe 3 or 4 active pages. If anybody wants to try it, here's my suggestion:
Just start writing (but don't dump piles). Set the backlog transition when the oldest page seems ready. It will still be visited frequently, until you have several more. After a week the frequency of visits will get below daily, and soon the list should stop growing.
October 8, 2011 at 14:15 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Why I like it:
It keeps me going on my most valued tasks, but in a very flexible way. No AF system offered me this.
Unimportant tasks are easily ignored as they will distract from the important progress I'm making. Yet other important tasks are not dropped.
As for the backlog, I'm content to have things disappear for a week. When they show up again, it may be time to take action. Generally things will remain for a month.
It keeps me going on my most valued tasks, but in a very flexible way. No AF system offered me this.
Unimportant tasks are easily ignored as they will distract from the important progress I'm making. Yet other important tasks are not dropped.
As for the backlog, I'm content to have things disappear for a week. When they show up again, it may be time to take action. Generally things will remain for a month.
October 8, 2011 at 14:25 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Alan:
Now I've thought about it a bit more, I like it better. There's one aspect of it in particular which has made me realise that I've been missing something obvious which was right before my eyes in developing my new system.
Back to the drawing board!
Now I've thought about it a bit more, I like it better. There's one aspect of it in particular which has made me realise that I've been missing something obvious which was right before my eyes in developing my new system.
Back to the drawing board!
October 8, 2011 at 16:30 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
This is starting to read like a mystery novel, with the dramatic unravelling of clues... Looking forward to the spinetingling conclusion!
October 8, 2011 at 17:07 |
DS
DS
Mark Forster: << Back to the drawing board! >>
So what's the status of the Final Version? Completely scrapped? Still holding promise? A book next summer?
So what's the status of the Final Version? Completely scrapped? Still holding promise? A book next summer?
October 13, 2011 at 15:51 |
jFenter
jFenter
jFenter:
The status is that I'm doing the task entitled "Comments" at the moment. The next task on the list is "Take over the world with the assistance of Final Version".
Of course I've got to wait until it stands out.
The status is that I'm doing the task entitled "Comments" at the moment. The next task on the list is "Take over the world with the assistance of Final Version".
Of course I've got to wait until it stands out.
October 13, 2011 at 17:31 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Hi Alan
Sorry I did not understand the process. Could you precise a bit please ?
I understand
1. Put all task one by one, one after the other like on AF1 it is your backlog i.e. p1 to 4
2. Drop a page
3. Put the date on the top of the next page i.e. P5
4. Read your backlog erase and report unfinished, recurring task on the last page i.e. P5
5. Then in page 5 are the active task
6. Where goes the new tasks I imagine on the active list if they have to be done today and on the following page i.e. P6 if they can be done anytime ?
7. Concerning the process do you begin your day by the dated list P5 ? Or do you begin by the back log ?
8. Then the following day do you drop another page and do the same process i.e. go step 3 ?
If I wrighly understood the system encourage to do what is the most important for you the famous 20 % which makes 80 % of the results and encourage the dismissing and the erasing of the backlog which usually take the most of your time fir 20% of the results...
Did I understood ?
Thanks for the answer.
Sorry I did not understand the process. Could you precise a bit please ?
I understand
1. Put all task one by one, one after the other like on AF1 it is your backlog i.e. p1 to 4
2. Drop a page
3. Put the date on the top of the next page i.e. P5
4. Read your backlog erase and report unfinished, recurring task on the last page i.e. P5
5. Then in page 5 are the active task
6. Where goes the new tasks I imagine on the active list if they have to be done today and on the following page i.e. P6 if they can be done anytime ?
7. Concerning the process do you begin your day by the dated list P5 ? Or do you begin by the back log ?
8. Then the following day do you drop another page and do the same process i.e. go step 3 ?
If I wrighly understood the system encourage to do what is the most important for you the famous 20 % which makes 80 % of the results and encourage the dismissing and the erasing of the backlog which usually take the most of your time fir 20% of the results...
Did I understood ?
Thanks for the answer.
October 19, 2011 at 15:05 |
FocusGuy.
FocusGuy.
เราจะไปไหนกันเนี่ย?
Jupiter: <<...new tasks I imagine on the active list if they have to be done today and on the following page i.e. P6 if they can be done anytime ? >>
To me, this sounds theoretical, like it could work for awhile, but would be destined to get mixed up.
So, you are definitely against the Day Plan in Alan's Step 3 in his "10 Steps to Total Organization"? ( http://www.markforster.net/forum/post/1602854 )
That would negate your need to "prioritise" using P5 and P6 like in your example. For me, your example gets even more complicated when considering recurring and unfinished tasks going into the back, active page(s).
I am just trying to think of this variation with a lot of flexibility and common sense. For example, the objective is to not neglect important items. The active pages do not have to be the newest two pages; it's up to us when to set the "Back-Log Transition." That is so cool and practical sounding.
I am still trying to get my head around Alan's "if you reach the beginning, you must choose a task or delte the page" (the don't-wrap-around thing). Delete the page? Of course, this might make a lot more sense when i read it again in the morning. But, I really like what I am taking in so far.
For example, I like the "do some trivial tasks for a nice break", and the weighty tasks will be viewed often as they near the B-Log because of natural aversions will be competing with the fear of them falling away. (Sorry, these quotes are not per se).
Good common sense here and this thread makes me think of the "AF1 Style" in even simplier, fail-safe and more entertaining terms. Combined with the Just-Open-the-File thinking (again, the aversion vs. fear-of-falling-away thing), I really am hoping for Alan's stated desired net effect (B-Log items are neither heavy-weights nor high-urgency items).
<<Or do you begin by the back log ? >>
So, why not begin the day with the REVIEW of the active pages and scheduled items?
Then, WORK the Day Plan (and Agenda) pages?
Then, WORK your B-Log pages; but from where you left off (bookmarked)?
Then, use your own judgement on when to draw the line on the B-Logs and go back to the Day Plan / Active pages?
Jupiter: <<...new tasks I imagine on the active list if they have to be done today and on the following page i.e. P6 if they can be done anytime ? >>
To me, this sounds theoretical, like it could work for awhile, but would be destined to get mixed up.
So, you are definitely against the Day Plan in Alan's Step 3 in his "10 Steps to Total Organization"? ( http://www.markforster.net/forum/post/1602854 )
That would negate your need to "prioritise" using P5 and P6 like in your example. For me, your example gets even more complicated when considering recurring and unfinished tasks going into the back, active page(s).
I am just trying to think of this variation with a lot of flexibility and common sense. For example, the objective is to not neglect important items. The active pages do not have to be the newest two pages; it's up to us when to set the "Back-Log Transition." That is so cool and practical sounding.
I am still trying to get my head around Alan's "if you reach the beginning, you must choose a task or delte the page" (the don't-wrap-around thing). Delete the page? Of course, this might make a lot more sense when i read it again in the morning. But, I really like what I am taking in so far.
For example, I like the "do some trivial tasks for a nice break", and the weighty tasks will be viewed often as they near the B-Log because of natural aversions will be competing with the fear of them falling away. (Sorry, these quotes are not per se).
Good common sense here and this thread makes me think of the "AF1 Style" in even simplier, fail-safe and more entertaining terms. Combined with the Just-Open-the-File thinking (again, the aversion vs. fear-of-falling-away thing), I really am hoping for Alan's stated desired net effect (B-Log items are neither heavy-weights nor high-urgency items).
<<Or do you begin by the back log ? >>
So, why not begin the day with the REVIEW of the active pages and scheduled items?
Then, WORK the Day Plan (and Agenda) pages?
Then, WORK your B-Log pages; but from where you left off (bookmarked)?
Then, use your own judgement on when to draw the line on the B-Logs and go back to the Day Plan / Active pages?
October 19, 2011 at 18:24 |
BKK
BKK
Jupiter:
You misunderstand.
All tasks go on the last page.
Do not start with backlog. Start with nothing, and add tasks to today's page.
Today and yesterday are active. Older pages are backlog. (sometimes I keep 3 active days.)
I begin the day by my dayplan, and write any tasks on today's page.
Then I process the active pages once. Then I process 2 or more backlog pages. Then repeat.
<<If I wrighly understood the system encourage to do what is the most important for you the famous 20 % which makes 80 % of the results and encourage the dismissing and the erasing of the backlog which usually take the most of your time fir 20% of the results...>>
This is true.
You misunderstand.
All tasks go on the last page.
Do not start with backlog. Start with nothing, and add tasks to today's page.
Today and yesterday are active. Older pages are backlog. (sometimes I keep 3 active days.)
I begin the day by my dayplan, and write any tasks on today's page.
Then I process the active pages once. Then I process 2 or more backlog pages. Then repeat.
<<If I wrighly understood the system encourage to do what is the most important for you the famous 20 % which makes 80 % of the results and encourage the dismissing and the erasing of the backlog which usually take the most of your time fir 20% of the results...>>
This is true.
October 19, 2011 at 19:12 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Bkk:
"if you reach the beginning, you must choose a task or delete the page"
The point is to prevent ignoring stuff forever. You must deal with something every time you look at the oldest page, thus ensuring it eventually is emptied and the next page becomes oldest.
"if you reach the beginning, you must choose a task or delete the page"
The point is to prevent ignoring stuff forever. You must deal with something every time you look at the oldest page, thus ensuring it eventually is emptied and the next page becomes oldest.
October 19, 2011 at 19:19 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
BKK:
<< เราจะไปไหนกันเนี่ย? >>
ระบบใหม่ของฉันแก้ปัญหาเหล่านี้ทั้งหมด
<< เราจะไปไหนกันเนี่ย? >>
ระบบใหม่ของฉันแก้ปัญหาเหล่านี้ทั้งหมด
October 19, 2011 at 23:09 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
ฐานของคุณทั้งหมดจะเป็นของเรา
October 20, 2011 at 0:33 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Where's the "Like" button for Seraphim's last comment?
October 20, 2011 at 13:25 |
jFenter
jFenter
Just put ผมชอบมัน in a new comment.
October 20, 2011 at 19:58 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Mark wrote: <<ระบบใหม่ของฉันแก้ปัญหาเหล่านี้ทั้งหมด>>.
This sounds great (that your system will resolve all my problems/issues). This is music to our ears, I am sure.
After Alan came out with his "10 Steps", and then "Here it is", I decided to draw the line on reading and "just do it" - a system that I think covers the basics as I described above to Jupiter.
Sorry Seraphim, in <<ฐานของคุณทั้งหมดจะเป็นของเรา>> - the basis (of the system) will belong to us (?)
I appreciate all the help and clarifications.
This sounds great (that your system will resolve all my problems/issues). This is music to our ears, I am sure.
After Alan came out with his "10 Steps", and then "Here it is", I decided to draw the line on reading and "just do it" - a system that I think covers the basics as I described above to Jupiter.
Sorry Seraphim, in <<ฐานของคุณทั้งหมดจะเป็นของเรา>> - the basis (of the system) will belong to us (?)
I appreciate all the help and clarifications.
October 21, 2011 at 17:32 |
BKK
BKK
Good luck! Let us know how well it works for you.
October 21, 2011 at 22:08 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
October 21, 2011 at 22:08 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
<<Good luck! Let us know how well it works for you.>>
Alan: Thanks. It has been going fine – or at least a lot better. I was wondering if you have considered how many lists, or types of lists and pages, you work with based on your current system and recent comments (?).
Referring to the above, and to your “10 steps to total organization” (http://www.markforster.net/forum/post/1602854 ), here is a “list of lists” that come to mind that have been discussed lately:
1) Agenda (calendar pages, events and hard deadlines)
2) Day Plan
3) Active Work Pages
4) "Current” Backlog pages
5) "Non-Current” Backlog pages
6) Deleted (or Hidden) pages
7) Project Task Lists (listed per project, and can be divided into Current, Medium and Long-Term)
Other possible lists not discussed in your recent threads:
8) Capture Lists –
Referring to Mark’s “To Do Lists — How we hate them!” (http://www.markforster.net/to-do-lists/ ):
“Items should only go on your to-do list after they have been subjected to rigorous assessment (….). On the other hand it’s important not to lose new ideas, so keep a separate list of ‘possible’ actions.”
9) The “Stop-Doing List”
This refers to Mark’s http://www.markforster.net/blog/2007/4/14/action-versus-activity.html . Excerpt:
“The best weapon in your war against activity is the Stop Doing list. Be ruthless in making out a list of activities, which you are no longer going to do. And keep expanding it.”
10) Side Lists: Including fast or temporary lists, contextual lists (shopping, waiting-for, calls, etc.)
11) Current Project List (CPL) (like an index of all your projects) (useful for reminders, prioritizing and realizing what the “Open-Loops” are)
12) Scheduled Tasks List (for planned dates of regular tasks and projects) (non-hard deadlines)
13) File Lists
It could go on and on. And when I “list” them out like this, it does seem rather daunting.
Alan: Thanks. It has been going fine – or at least a lot better. I was wondering if you have considered how many lists, or types of lists and pages, you work with based on your current system and recent comments (?).
Referring to the above, and to your “10 steps to total organization” (http://www.markforster.net/forum/post/1602854 ), here is a “list of lists” that come to mind that have been discussed lately:
1) Agenda (calendar pages, events and hard deadlines)
2) Day Plan
3) Active Work Pages
4) "Current” Backlog pages
5) "Non-Current” Backlog pages
6) Deleted (or Hidden) pages
7) Project Task Lists (listed per project, and can be divided into Current, Medium and Long-Term)
Other possible lists not discussed in your recent threads:
8) Capture Lists –
Referring to Mark’s “To Do Lists — How we hate them!” (http://www.markforster.net/to-do-lists/ ):
“Items should only go on your to-do list after they have been subjected to rigorous assessment (….). On the other hand it’s important not to lose new ideas, so keep a separate list of ‘possible’ actions.”
9) The “Stop-Doing List”
This refers to Mark’s http://www.markforster.net/blog/2007/4/14/action-versus-activity.html . Excerpt:
“The best weapon in your war against activity is the Stop Doing list. Be ruthless in making out a list of activities, which you are no longer going to do. And keep expanding it.”
10) Side Lists: Including fast or temporary lists, contextual lists (shopping, waiting-for, calls, etc.)
11) Current Project List (CPL) (like an index of all your projects) (useful for reminders, prioritizing and realizing what the “Open-Loops” are)
12) Scheduled Tasks List (for planned dates of regular tasks and projects) (non-hard deadlines)
13) File Lists
It could go on and on. And when I “list” them out like this, it does seem rather daunting.
October 29, 2011 at 20:30 |
BKK
BKK
1) Agenda - YES
2) Day Plan - YES, included in 3
3) Active Work Pages - YES
4) "Current” Backlog pages - YES
5) "Non-Current” Backlog pages - NO
6) Deleted (or Hidden) pages - NO
7) Project Task Lists - mega YES
8) Capture Lists – NO. AF makes the advice obsolete
9) The “Stop-Doing List” - NO. A task "think about what to stop doing", maybe".
10) Side Lists - YES as needed
11) Current Project List - NO. Included in 3,4.
12) Scheduled Tasks - NO. included in 1.
13) File Lists - NO
Plus:
14) Daily Routines. Weekend Routines.
15) Work Log
2) Day Plan - YES, included in 3
3) Active Work Pages - YES
4) "Current” Backlog pages - YES
5) "Non-Current” Backlog pages - NO
6) Deleted (or Hidden) pages - NO
7) Project Task Lists - mega YES
8) Capture Lists – NO. AF makes the advice obsolete
9) The “Stop-Doing List” - NO. A task "think about what to stop doing", maybe".
10) Side Lists - YES as needed
11) Current Project List - NO. Included in 3,4.
12) Scheduled Tasks - NO. included in 1.
13) File Lists - NO
Plus:
14) Daily Routines. Weekend Routines.
15) Work Log
October 29, 2011 at 21:24 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
My list:
1) Agenda - YES
2) Active Work Pages - YES
3) Ad hoc lists as and when I need them (which I usually don't)
4) iDoneThis -YES (usually 3 or 4 items p.d.)
5) Top 5 Goals list. YES
Items 4) and 5) are not really essential.
Seems to work ok, but then I like things to be as simple as possible.
1) Agenda - YES
2) Active Work Pages - YES
3) Ad hoc lists as and when I need them (which I usually don't)
4) iDoneThis -YES (usually 3 or 4 items p.d.)
5) Top 5 Goals list. YES
Items 4) and 5) are not really essential.
Seems to work ok, but then I like things to be as simple as possible.
October 30, 2011 at 0:03 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Thanks for the replies. The reason I even made a “list of lists” was because (like I mentioned above) I was trying to draw a line on a system and decided to basically use Alan’s recent posts to formulate with minimal rules and principles. The idea is to get to work while we are waiting for El Libro (the “final system”) from Mark.
So my lists 1-7 basically came directly from Alan’s posts:
----1---- Agenda – for me, an Agenda can only have event-type items (hard deadlines, appointments and key events in life). If I look over an agenda months later, I cannot imagine having to look at mixed-in, scheduled to-do tasks, which would really be wish-list items (some completed on time, some not), or tentative due dates for relatively trivial tasks (non-hard items).
So, for me, “due dates” and planned “time blocks” either have to go into the Day Plan + AF1, or kept separately. I am trying out both ways.
----2---- Day Plan: I wish I could keep my Day Plan in my Active Pages like Alan, but it gets messy for me and I keep having to re-write the items.
I like the Running Day Plan that has been referred to in this forum on occasion (and reference made to the Inc. Magazine article by Jane Wesman (http://www.inc.com/magazine/19960901/1807_Printer_Friendly.html ).
In this article she says, “With this system, I don't waste time writing a new list every day. I cross out items as I complete them, then add to the old list until it takes up several pages. At that point, I carry over uncompleted items and start a fresh list on the next empty right-hand page. (For me, that usually happens every few days or so.)”
However, I am probably wrong about this (and Alan is probably right), and Mark is probably even more right (with his no response to the Day Plan list above). (But, of course, it’s another thing we are waiting for.)
The other thing I like about a separate Day Plan is that I combine it with a little time sheet and use one of the Pomodoro iPad/iPhone apps, or “My Little Pomodoro” on the Mac. These Pomodoro timers make me to:
(1) Think about what I am doing – (really doing).
(2) Make me actually concentrate on the tasks for the pre-set time (e.g., 20 minutes).
(3) Help me get back to what I was doing after interruptions.
(4) Facilitate my DRE’s (Daily Record of Events) (Alan’s “Work Log”, and Mark’s “iDoneThis”).
(The technique: http://www.pomodorotechnique.com/ .)
---4--- and ----5---- For Backlog pages, Alan said “no” for my “non-current backlog pages”, but I was simply referring to his comments above; where he works back X backlog pages. The “X pages” are the pages I have decided on to review at the moment. Everything else is “non-current backlog pages”. (I was agreeing with Alan’s “rules with asterisks are tools to balance the active and backlog pages. Adjust them to your situation”.)
Alan writes another good example for me of “non-current backlog pages” above: “As for the backlog, I'm content to have things disappear for a week”.
Mark’s response above did not even mention backlog pages. It was here on this forum that I realised how important it was to develop and deal properly with backlogs (a matter of life and death).
---6---- Deleted (or Hidden) pages:
For me, this can apply to either dismissed pages / tasks (for later review) or keeping non-current someday/maybe lists out-of-sight-out-of-mind as per the GTD method.
Also, according to Alan’s “you must choose a task, or delete the page”. I interpreted this “deleted page” as either being trashed (really deleted), or dismissed for later review.
-----7------ Project Task Lists: Alan responded with a “mega YES”; Mark did not include on his list of lists above.
I do not understand how you cannot group certain tasks and keep those groups separate from your acive pages. For a construction project in your house, for example, how can you have tasks like procurement, paint, preparations, steps, subcontractors, etc. mixed in with several other tasks over several pages?
Anyway the whole objective was to simplify; not to make things more complicated than they need be. That’s why I was curious on your opinions concerning the minimal “list of lists”. Even with the misunderstandings and questions I have or have had, the whole process has been fruitful. My objective is to keep working at simplicity and to keep going back to the basic ideas in Mark’s “More about Systems”
(http://www.markforster.net/blog/2006/10/4/more-about-systems.html ).
So my lists 1-7 basically came directly from Alan’s posts:
----1---- Agenda – for me, an Agenda can only have event-type items (hard deadlines, appointments and key events in life). If I look over an agenda months later, I cannot imagine having to look at mixed-in, scheduled to-do tasks, which would really be wish-list items (some completed on time, some not), or tentative due dates for relatively trivial tasks (non-hard items).
So, for me, “due dates” and planned “time blocks” either have to go into the Day Plan + AF1, or kept separately. I am trying out both ways.
----2---- Day Plan: I wish I could keep my Day Plan in my Active Pages like Alan, but it gets messy for me and I keep having to re-write the items.
I like the Running Day Plan that has been referred to in this forum on occasion (and reference made to the Inc. Magazine article by Jane Wesman (http://www.inc.com/magazine/19960901/1807_Printer_Friendly.html ).
In this article she says, “With this system, I don't waste time writing a new list every day. I cross out items as I complete them, then add to the old list until it takes up several pages. At that point, I carry over uncompleted items and start a fresh list on the next empty right-hand page. (For me, that usually happens every few days or so.)”
However, I am probably wrong about this (and Alan is probably right), and Mark is probably even more right (with his no response to the Day Plan list above). (But, of course, it’s another thing we are waiting for.)
The other thing I like about a separate Day Plan is that I combine it with a little time sheet and use one of the Pomodoro iPad/iPhone apps, or “My Little Pomodoro” on the Mac. These Pomodoro timers make me to:
(1) Think about what I am doing – (really doing).
(2) Make me actually concentrate on the tasks for the pre-set time (e.g., 20 minutes).
(3) Help me get back to what I was doing after interruptions.
(4) Facilitate my DRE’s (Daily Record of Events) (Alan’s “Work Log”, and Mark’s “iDoneThis”).
(The technique: http://www.pomodorotechnique.com/ .)
---4--- and ----5---- For Backlog pages, Alan said “no” for my “non-current backlog pages”, but I was simply referring to his comments above; where he works back X backlog pages. The “X pages” are the pages I have decided on to review at the moment. Everything else is “non-current backlog pages”. (I was agreeing with Alan’s “rules with asterisks are tools to balance the active and backlog pages. Adjust them to your situation”.)
Alan writes another good example for me of “non-current backlog pages” above: “As for the backlog, I'm content to have things disappear for a week”.
Mark’s response above did not even mention backlog pages. It was here on this forum that I realised how important it was to develop and deal properly with backlogs (a matter of life and death).
---6---- Deleted (or Hidden) pages:
For me, this can apply to either dismissed pages / tasks (for later review) or keeping non-current someday/maybe lists out-of-sight-out-of-mind as per the GTD method.
Also, according to Alan’s “you must choose a task, or delete the page”. I interpreted this “deleted page” as either being trashed (really deleted), or dismissed for later review.
-----7------ Project Task Lists: Alan responded with a “mega YES”; Mark did not include on his list of lists above.
I do not understand how you cannot group certain tasks and keep those groups separate from your acive pages. For a construction project in your house, for example, how can you have tasks like procurement, paint, preparations, steps, subcontractors, etc. mixed in with several other tasks over several pages?
Anyway the whole objective was to simplify; not to make things more complicated than they need be. That’s why I was curious on your opinions concerning the minimal “list of lists”. Even with the misunderstandings and questions I have or have had, the whole process has been fruitful. My objective is to keep working at simplicity and to keep going back to the basic ideas in Mark’s “More about Systems”
(http://www.markforster.net/blog/2006/10/4/more-about-systems.html ).
October 30, 2011 at 9:50 |
BKK
BKK
BKK:
<< Mark’s response above did not even mention backlog pages. >>
That's because I don't have any backlogs.
<< Project Task Lists: Alan responded with a “mega YES”; Mark did not include on his list of lists above. >>
They are included in:
"3) Ad hoc lists as and when I need them (which I usually don't)"
<< I do not understand how you cannot group certain tasks and keep those groups separate from your acive pages. For a construction project in your house, for example, how can you have tasks like procurement, paint, preparations, steps, subcontractors, etc. mixed in with several other tasks over several pages? >>
Well, if you need a list then use a list. My concern is not with stopping people using any project lists - it's with encouraging people not to use them when they don't need them. The constant multiplying of lists tends to result in spending more time maintaining the system than doing the work.
<< Mark’s response above did not even mention backlog pages. >>
That's because I don't have any backlogs.
<< Project Task Lists: Alan responded with a “mega YES”; Mark did not include on his list of lists above. >>
They are included in:
"3) Ad hoc lists as and when I need them (which I usually don't)"
<< I do not understand how you cannot group certain tasks and keep those groups separate from your acive pages. For a construction project in your house, for example, how can you have tasks like procurement, paint, preparations, steps, subcontractors, etc. mixed in with several other tasks over several pages? >>
Well, if you need a list then use a list. My concern is not with stopping people using any project lists - it's with encouraging people not to use them when they don't need them. The constant multiplying of lists tends to result in spending more time maintaining the system than doing the work.
October 30, 2011 at 15:41 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Agree fully with Mark on point 3. Don't use them when not needed - agreed.
"The constant multiplying of lists tends to result in spending more time maintaining the system than doing the work."
This isn't my tendency anymore. I don't maintain project lists. I dump stuff there when they belong there. When I work on a project, I scan the notes and take concrete action to move the project forward. I will incidentally delete dead stuff and organize stuff. It's not "maintenance", but progress.
"The constant multiplying of lists tends to result in spending more time maintaining the system than doing the work."
This isn't my tendency anymore. I don't maintain project lists. I dump stuff there when they belong there. When I work on a project, I scan the notes and take concrete action to move the project forward. I will incidentally delete dead stuff and organize stuff. It's not "maintenance", but progress.
October 30, 2011 at 16:28 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
<<----2---- Day Plan: I wish I could keep my Day Plan in my Active Pages like Alan, but it gets messy for me and I keep having to re-write the items.>>
My plans are extremely simple. E.g.
Dailies
Meeting after work
Project X is due today
Make tomorrow's plan.
This is too easy to get messy or have to rewrite. I recognize other jobs are more intricate.
<<---4--- and ----5---- For Backlog pages, Alan said “no” for my “non-current backlog pages”, but I was simply referring to his comments above; where he works back X backlog pages. >>
One backlog page is marked as Next, but that's a temporary thing. There is no "current" or "non-current".
"Backlog" is merely the term chosen in describing my process. These aren't backlog in the sense of "unmanaged mess", but in the sense of "deliberately postponed until later". But it's really just one list with two parts. If I followed AF1, I wouldn't have backlog pages. In AF4, I would, but it's just a name.
<<---6---- Deleted (or Hidden) pages:>>
When I delete something, it is GONE, so no deleted pages exist.
My plans are extremely simple. E.g.
Dailies
Meeting after work
Project X is due today
Make tomorrow's plan.
This is too easy to get messy or have to rewrite. I recognize other jobs are more intricate.
<<---4--- and ----5---- For Backlog pages, Alan said “no” for my “non-current backlog pages”, but I was simply referring to his comments above; where he works back X backlog pages. >>
One backlog page is marked as Next, but that's a temporary thing. There is no "current" or "non-current".
"Backlog" is merely the term chosen in describing my process. These aren't backlog in the sense of "unmanaged mess", but in the sense of "deliberately postponed until later". But it's really just one list with two parts. If I followed AF1, I wouldn't have backlog pages. In AF4, I would, but it's just a name.
<<---6---- Deleted (or Hidden) pages:>>
When I delete something, it is GONE, so no deleted pages exist.
October 30, 2011 at 16:55 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
<<These aren't backlog in the sense of "unmanaged mess", but in the sense of "deliberately postponed until later". >>
Now, there's a difference... I could not come close to having the luxury of saying such a thing, unfortunately. But there is always the “Top 5 Goals list”.
On backlogs, besides just active vs. non-active tasks, there’s the daily papers, printouts, etc. As we have discussed before, I like the idea of “closing” sections of backlog such as this and dealing with them one at a time in terms of sections and bookmarks. For me, this idea can be applied to a lot of things; such as email, in-box, scanning, shredding, phone notes, etc.
Thanks for the feedback and suggestions. I will have to mull over much of this in an attempt to keep it as simple as possible, it appears.
Now, there's a difference... I could not come close to having the luxury of saying such a thing, unfortunately. But there is always the “Top 5 Goals list”.
On backlogs, besides just active vs. non-active tasks, there’s the daily papers, printouts, etc. As we have discussed before, I like the idea of “closing” sections of backlog such as this and dealing with them one at a time in terms of sections and bookmarks. For me, this idea can be applied to a lot of things; such as email, in-box, scanning, shredding, phone notes, etc.
Thanks for the feedback and suggestions. I will have to mull over much of this in an attempt to keep it as simple as possible, it appears.
October 30, 2011 at 18:06 |
BKK
BKK
On backlogs, we're talking about different things, BKK.
"I could not come close to having the luxury of saying such a thing, unfortunately." In my context, this doesn't make sense. My backlog is a feature of my system, so it's nothing to do with luxury, everything to do with rules.
I use my projects to manage the gap you're experiencing. If X is to be worked later, it's always because it's part of some project. This project either isn't active now, or isn't ready for X. Either way, X gets filed for later.
Evidently you're discussing a different approach. Incidentally:
email: in the AF list.
inbox: the AF list
scanning: to the AF list
phone notes: to the AF list
shredding: big box
I do also have backlogged stuff:
unprocessed paper notes (few)
printouts (mostly unneeded, but not sorted through yet).
"I could not come close to having the luxury of saying such a thing, unfortunately." In my context, this doesn't make sense. My backlog is a feature of my system, so it's nothing to do with luxury, everything to do with rules.
I use my projects to manage the gap you're experiencing. If X is to be worked later, it's always because it's part of some project. This project either isn't active now, or isn't ready for X. Either way, X gets filed for later.
Evidently you're discussing a different approach. Incidentally:
email: in the AF list.
inbox: the AF list
scanning: to the AF list
phone notes: to the AF list
shredding: big box
I do also have backlogged stuff:
unprocessed paper notes (few)
printouts (mostly unneeded, but not sorted through yet).
October 31, 2011 at 12:56 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
2. Work some backlog pages.
3. Repeat.
== The Idea ==
The system consistently works your hot tasks, and sends neglected tasks to the backlog for later processing. (This also encourages you not to neglect important tasks.) A short cycle time lets you focus longer on a task, or set it aside and come back to it quickly. It is a perfect Step 4 of my "10 Steps to Total Organization".
== Working the Active Pages ==
Z) Enter all tasks (new, recurring, unfinished) on the last page.
Y) After *20 lines*, start a new page.
X) Work backwards through the active pages, rewriting unfinished tasks at the end.
W) Tasks already on the last page, skip rewriting.
Q) The newest *2* pages are active. The rest are backlog.
== Working some Backlog Pages ==
A) First visit, start at the back. On subsequent visits, continue where you left off. If that was first page, restart at the newest back.
B) Work backwards for *3* pages.
C) Do or delete stuff at will. Rewrite unfinished tasks at the end.
D) If you found nothing to do, keep going until you do something.
E) Do not wrap around. If you reach the beginning, you must choose a task, or delete the page.
== Customizing ==
The rules with asterisks are tools to balance the active and backlog pages. Adjust them to your situation. At work, instead of *after 20 lines*, I use *each day*.
At home, I use : Start a new page *every 15 lines*. The last *4* pages are active. Work the backlog at least *2* pages. I may vary according to circumstance.