Discussion Forum > Imperfectionism (continued)
Mark:
<<You've changed the wording. You need to define which qualities or characteristics are desirable, not desired. >>
My point stands: People will differ on what is desired. Gaining a healthier balance to buy both a couch and a new fridge may make for a better house, but may be contrary to a person's desires, in the bigger picture. Maybe focusing more on people than work will be better.
Which brings me back to the idea that you can't perfect everything. You can merely "aim for perfection" to the extent you allot time and effort to each goal. More emphasis should be given to greater goals.
The other question is the approach to achieving it. I suspect your practice of pursuing perfection might fit my notion of imperfectionism, as I suppose perfection isn't always achieved, and pursuit isn't always endless.
<<You've changed the wording. You need to define which qualities or characteristics are desirable, not desired. >>
My point stands: People will differ on what is desired. Gaining a healthier balance to buy both a couch and a new fridge may make for a better house, but may be contrary to a person's desires, in the bigger picture. Maybe focusing more on people than work will be better.
Which brings me back to the idea that you can't perfect everything. You can merely "aim for perfection" to the extent you allot time and effort to each goal. More emphasis should be given to greater goals.
The other question is the approach to achieving it. I suspect your practice of pursuing perfection might fit my notion of imperfectionism, as I suppose perfection isn't always achieved, and pursuit isn't always endless.
October 14, 2011 at 23:13 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
"Having all the required or desirable elements, qualities or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be".
Required by whom and for what purpose?
As Alan has said, the specifics vary from one person to another, and from one context to another.
Required by whom and for what purpose?
As Alan has said, the specifics vary from one person to another, and from one context to another.
October 14, 2011 at 23:26 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
<< Using the dictionary definition of perfect above, what are the "required or desirable elements, qualities or characteristics" of these emails? Prolixity, longwindedness, time consuming (for both the reader and writer)? or Conciseness, clarity and incisiveness? >>
Neither. As I already wrote - "the goal [of the emails] has always been clear timely communication that results in appropriate and timely decisions and actions".
Sometimes it requires detail to make "appropriate and timely decisions and actions".
Sometimes it doesn't.
But ultimately I found that it's faster & easier to write the emails short & quick, and fill in the detail on request. It achieves the desired goal more quickly and more effectively.
Neither. As I already wrote - "the goal [of the emails] has always been clear timely communication that results in appropriate and timely decisions and actions".
Sometimes it requires detail to make "appropriate and timely decisions and actions".
Sometimes it doesn't.
But ultimately I found that it's faster & easier to write the emails short & quick, and fill in the detail on request. It achieves the desired goal more quickly and more effectively.
October 14, 2011 at 23:28 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Alan:
I've slightly re-written the post you quote from to make the point that the qualities Seraphim desired in his lengthy emails (permanence and significance) turned out not to be desirable.
Which brings me back to the idea that your greater goals are going to suffer as a result of everything you don't perfect. The reason being that imperfection is very time consuming and energy draining.
I've slightly re-written the post you quote from to make the point that the qualities Seraphim desired in his lengthy emails (permanence and significance) turned out not to be desirable.
Which brings me back to the idea that your greater goals are going to suffer as a result of everything you don't perfect. The reason being that imperfection is very time consuming and energy draining.
October 14, 2011 at 23:30 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Seraphim:
<< clear timely communication that results in appropriate and timely decisions and actions >>
Sounds like the conciseness, clarity and incisiveness option to me.
<< clear timely communication that results in appropriate and timely decisions and actions >>
Sounds like the conciseness, clarity and incisiveness option to me.
October 14, 2011 at 23:33 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Mark wrote:
<< As Seraphim discovered, the qualities he desired in his emails (permanence and significance?) were not actually desirable. >>
No, just to make it clear, I don't desire those things for my emails. :-)
That's one reason I posted about emails in one post -- one context -- and about the broad general meaning of permanence in a second post -- a different context. "Perfection" means different things in different contexts. And this is implied in the dictionary definition, it seems to me.
<< As Seraphim discovered, the qualities he desired in his emails (permanence and significance?) were not actually desirable. >>
No, just to make it clear, I don't desire those things for my emails. :-)
That's one reason I posted about emails in one post -- one context -- and about the broad general meaning of permanence in a second post -- a different context. "Perfection" means different things in different contexts. And this is implied in the dictionary definition, it seems to me.
October 14, 2011 at 23:37 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
I think the important question is, why should the Olympic skier visit 20 stores in search of the perfect couch [most comfortable, best looking - that's what he desires in lounge furniture]?
I say he shouldn't, and should settle on an imperfect couch, and not because the better couch won't be more relaxing, but because in limited time, there are more important things to pursue once an acceptable couch has been found. Mark, you seem to suggest he should keep looking. I doubt you mean that, but I don't know how else to interpret your words.
The skier's greater goals are going to suffer as a result of time spent perfecting the couch.
I say he shouldn't, and should settle on an imperfect couch, and not because the better couch won't be more relaxing, but because in limited time, there are more important things to pursue once an acceptable couch has been found. Mark, you seem to suggest he should keep looking. I doubt you mean that, but I don't know how else to interpret your words.
The skier's greater goals are going to suffer as a result of time spent perfecting the couch.
October 14, 2011 at 23:56 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
This all looks to me like one of the shapes of the 80/20 principle.
October 15, 2011 at 9:02 |
Erik
Erik
Seraphim:
<< "Perfection" means different things in different contexts. And this is implied in the dictionary definition, it seems to me. >>
Well exactly, but you did say that permanence and significance were certainly part of *your* definition of perfection, and your description of the way you originally went about your emails suggested that, perhaps unconsciously, you were trying to write something permanent and significant.
<< "Perfection" means different things in different contexts. And this is implied in the dictionary definition, it seems to me. >>
Well exactly, but you did say that permanence and significance were certainly part of *your* definition of perfection, and your description of the way you originally went about your emails suggested that, perhaps unconsciously, you were trying to write something permanent and significant.
October 15, 2011 at 9:22 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Alan:
<< I think the important question is, why should the Olympic skier visit 20 stores in search of the perfect couch [most comfortable, best looking - that's what he desires in lounge furniture]? >>
How on earth you got this out of anything I've said I don't know.
I've already said that "spending disproportionate resources on a trivial improvement" is not the dictionary definition of perfectionism, nor mine.
<< I think the important question is, why should the Olympic skier visit 20 stores in search of the perfect couch [most comfortable, best looking - that's what he desires in lounge furniture]? >>
How on earth you got this out of anything I've said I don't know.
I've already said that "spending disproportionate resources on a trivial improvement" is not the dictionary definition of perfectionism, nor mine.
October 15, 2011 at 9:25 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
<<My question was "What difference would it make if you were aiming to become a perfect cook?">>
Ok. In this perspective, I think cooking is one of the things that I really do for myself, so it should not change nothing (but off course I'm prone to perfecting furtherly :) )
But there are other fields where I probably should meditate more on this difference.
Just to complicate a bit things I can add an ingredient to the formula that keeps people from making things just for themselfves. And that is market. Market can be "others" and if you're trying to sell something or yourself to the market, this activity should match with your aim of perfection too. But that wouldn't prevent your need to "show off" your skills in order to get work.
Ok. In this perspective, I think cooking is one of the things that I really do for myself, so it should not change nothing (but off course I'm prone to perfecting furtherly :) )
But there are other fields where I probably should meditate more on this difference.
Just to complicate a bit things I can add an ingredient to the formula that keeps people from making things just for themselfves. And that is market. Market can be "others" and if you're trying to sell something or yourself to the market, this activity should match with your aim of perfection too. But that wouldn't prevent your need to "show off" your skills in order to get work.
October 15, 2011 at 12:11 |
Lorenzo
Lorenzo
Webster has a different definition of perfect:
"having no defect or fault; flawless; accurate; absolute."
That aside, and sticking with Oxford, you said: "your greater goals are going to suffer as a result of everything you don't perfect". Some things undone indeed will hinder your efforts, but surely not everything or even most. How strong can you make your case? My claim is "greater goals are going to suffer as a result of time spent perfecting". Evidently you agree in the example of the skier. So how do you define the line?
"having no defect or fault; flawless; accurate; absolute."
That aside, and sticking with Oxford, you said: "your greater goals are going to suffer as a result of everything you don't perfect". Some things undone indeed will hinder your efforts, but surely not everything or even most. How strong can you make your case? My claim is "greater goals are going to suffer as a result of time spent perfecting". Evidently you agree in the example of the skier. So how do you define the line?
October 15, 2011 at 13:14 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
I think I must interject. Webster's meaning rings much closer to my casual use of the word perfect. It is certainly what I had in mind when I started the discussion. And despite knowing Mark was following Oxford's definition, I always took that with a Webster slant of the extreme. Perfect is 100%. Perhaps Mark was thinking strictly "exactly as desired" and thus "aim for perfect" meant merely "aim for what you want [desire]". (Mark, can you affirm this intent?) I can't argue against that. I interpreted the phrase as "aim for the superlative". A room should be clean, thus a perfect room is absolutely clean.
October 15, 2011 at 13:51 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Edit: replace "desired" with "desirable" and "desire" with "believe desirable".
October 15, 2011 at 14:22 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Alan:
Let's get rid of the words "perfect" and "perfection" which are causing trouble because they are absolutes, and use the words "excellent" and "excellence" instead.
What I am saying is that the more excellent you can make your systems, procedures and working environment, the easier it will be to attain your important goals. There is obviously a limit beyond which this is no longer cost effective, but it is a lot higher than most people take it.
The fact that some "perfectionists" spend a lot of time trying to perfect totally unimportant things has got nothing to do with the pursuit of excellence.
I am also saying that if you aim for excellence in everything, then you are likely to get a lot further than if you a) only aim for excellence in some things, or b) aim for less than excellence in everything. Even if you don't get as high as you aim for you will still get higher than if you had aimed for less.
Again obviously if you misdirect your energies by spending a disproportionate time on something totally irrelevant, then this has got nothing to do with pursuing excellence.
How can I make it any plainer?
Let's get rid of the words "perfect" and "perfection" which are causing trouble because they are absolutes, and use the words "excellent" and "excellence" instead.
What I am saying is that the more excellent you can make your systems, procedures and working environment, the easier it will be to attain your important goals. There is obviously a limit beyond which this is no longer cost effective, but it is a lot higher than most people take it.
The fact that some "perfectionists" spend a lot of time trying to perfect totally unimportant things has got nothing to do with the pursuit of excellence.
I am also saying that if you aim for excellence in everything, then you are likely to get a lot further than if you a) only aim for excellence in some things, or b) aim for less than excellence in everything. Even if you don't get as high as you aim for you will still get higher than if you had aimed for less.
Again obviously if you misdirect your energies by spending a disproportionate time on something totally irrelevant, then this has got nothing to do with pursuing excellence.
How can I make it any plainer?
October 15, 2011 at 16:33 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Excellent! (but not perfect). Mark, your final post is 5x plainer than the rest of the thread. I am inclined to agree with your post. Even more, If understand what you are saying, I can take that as a challenge to pursue.
October 15, 2011 at 16:45 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
I'm glad this thread has made it out of the muck of vocabulary—that is to say, I'm glad it got into the muck and then made it out—because not only have you all explored a valuable topic, but you have also illuminated much of its controversy and confusion.
We've been talking about two separate things, one of them good ("excellence") and one bad ("perfecting unimportant things"), both of which are typically labeled "perfectionism" and so tend to be accepted or rejected together as one package. This leads to no end of trouble when setting goals, for an individual or a team.
I myself am a natural perfectionist of both kinds, though periodically I hear something like the "80/20 rule" and convince myself that I should embrace imperfection of both kinds. Of course this never works out, and with relief I revert to my original self, reveling in maximized efficiencies and matching margins. It's been my misfortune to have worked with some dyed-in-the-wool imperfectionists, who see themselves as artists at producing something just beyond junk, scoring extra style points the closer they sink to the level of junk without actually drooping under it (as if playing an inverted game of blackjack), or even releasing known junk with plans to disguise it or blame it on someone else. The creative energy that goes into these plans can be astounding, more than enough to have made bona fide non-junk from the start.
Sadly, discussions on perfectionism tend to follow the delightful chats I used to have with those people: shall we be pathological perfectionists, or junk artists? Even when the topic is developed with much more subtlety and common sense, rarely are we encouraged to be better than, say, an 80% guitar player while accepting worse than an 80% couch.
The issue is not whether to be perfect, but what is important to perfect. Teams should not be debating whether 80% is good enough. They should be clarifying their goal, and its purpose, and then aiming to hit it perfectly. There is something about those junk artists that does not want to be fettered by any such standard, as if they are happier to slither under any bar, no matter how high, than to climb over a much lower one.
All of this intersects at Mark's claim above: "There is obviously a limit beyond which [excellence in all things] is no longer cost effective, but it is a lot higher than most people take it."
Where is the cost-effective limit in organizing your receipts? Improving your professional skills? Cleaning your kitchen? Selecting a gift for your best friend of thirty years? Selecting a couch? What is the effect on your professional, creative life of feeling every relaxing moment interrupted by thoughts of, "Damn this lumpy couch!"?
The standard is not 100% in all things, but it is a lot higher than most people take it.
I used to write software for OCR (optical character recognition), in which we scan a document and attempt to convert it to a word processing file by teaching the computer to recognize all the letters visually. A success rate of 99% was considered quite poor, which often surprises newcomers and laymen. But, considering that an average English word contains 6 or 7 letters, and a 99% success rate means a 1% error rate, we are talking about one word in fifteen misspelled, which yields a pretty horrible-looking document. How many misspellings are acceptable, and why? One per sentence, one per page, one per document ... That is the difference between 99%, 99.9%, 99.99%, ...
The standard is not 100% in all things, but it is a lot higher than most people take it.
We've been talking about two separate things, one of them good ("excellence") and one bad ("perfecting unimportant things"), both of which are typically labeled "perfectionism" and so tend to be accepted or rejected together as one package. This leads to no end of trouble when setting goals, for an individual or a team.
I myself am a natural perfectionist of both kinds, though periodically I hear something like the "80/20 rule" and convince myself that I should embrace imperfection of both kinds. Of course this never works out, and with relief I revert to my original self, reveling in maximized efficiencies and matching margins. It's been my misfortune to have worked with some dyed-in-the-wool imperfectionists, who see themselves as artists at producing something just beyond junk, scoring extra style points the closer they sink to the level of junk without actually drooping under it (as if playing an inverted game of blackjack), or even releasing known junk with plans to disguise it or blame it on someone else. The creative energy that goes into these plans can be astounding, more than enough to have made bona fide non-junk from the start.
Sadly, discussions on perfectionism tend to follow the delightful chats I used to have with those people: shall we be pathological perfectionists, or junk artists? Even when the topic is developed with much more subtlety and common sense, rarely are we encouraged to be better than, say, an 80% guitar player while accepting worse than an 80% couch.
The issue is not whether to be perfect, but what is important to perfect. Teams should not be debating whether 80% is good enough. They should be clarifying their goal, and its purpose, and then aiming to hit it perfectly. There is something about those junk artists that does not want to be fettered by any such standard, as if they are happier to slither under any bar, no matter how high, than to climb over a much lower one.
All of this intersects at Mark's claim above: "There is obviously a limit beyond which [excellence in all things] is no longer cost effective, but it is a lot higher than most people take it."
Where is the cost-effective limit in organizing your receipts? Improving your professional skills? Cleaning your kitchen? Selecting a gift for your best friend of thirty years? Selecting a couch? What is the effect on your professional, creative life of feeling every relaxing moment interrupted by thoughts of, "Damn this lumpy couch!"?
The standard is not 100% in all things, but it is a lot higher than most people take it.
I used to write software for OCR (optical character recognition), in which we scan a document and attempt to convert it to a word processing file by teaching the computer to recognize all the letters visually. A success rate of 99% was considered quite poor, which often surprises newcomers and laymen. But, considering that an average English word contains 6 or 7 letters, and a 99% success rate means a 1% error rate, we are talking about one word in fifteen misspelled, which yields a pretty horrible-looking document. How many misspellings are acceptable, and why? One per sentence, one per page, one per document ... That is the difference between 99%, 99.9%, 99.99%, ...
The standard is not 100% in all things, but it is a lot higher than most people take it.
October 15, 2011 at 18:58 |
Bernie
Bernie
Bernie:
I use 80/20 not in the way to do all my stuff at 20% effort for 80% results.
I use it as I do 20% of my stuff at close to 100% and leave the rest.
A more realistic way to see it is:
I do 20% of my stuff at 80% effort giving excellent result.
And do the rest of my stuff (the 80% left) at 20% effort giving me good enough results (80%).
Hope it's not too confusing.
It's like Mark says, do the right things well.
And if you can VERY well.
I use 80/20 not in the way to do all my stuff at 20% effort for 80% results.
I use it as I do 20% of my stuff at close to 100% and leave the rest.
A more realistic way to see it is:
I do 20% of my stuff at 80% effort giving excellent result.
And do the rest of my stuff (the 80% left) at 20% effort giving me good enough results (80%).
Hope it's not too confusing.
It's like Mark says, do the right things well.
And if you can VERY well.
October 16, 2011 at 6:01 |
Erik
Erik
Great thread to have joined. Thank you all for contributions.
I would just report this phrase that I think I didn't hear of from when I was young. Saturday I found my father that was hammering some nails to a wall; I looked better, and he was using a "rollable meter" (don't know the exact word, it's the type that masons use, the heavy metallic-cased ones) to hammer the nails. I asked him why, and he just said: "My father used to say, if you haven't a dog, go hunting with the cat."
I think that this phrase can be used to link in this discussion the two types of "perfectionists" thta we finally isolated: the one aiming for excellence and the pathologic one that wastes his time.
What I'm trying to say is that in the pursue of perfection, we should always consider which resources we have *at this time*. Just because a better way of doing something exists, it doesn't mean we can't work out things perfectly without it. And then, we can always enter a "buy a hammer" in our list for the next time, depending on how many nails we have to hang. Do you agree?
I would just report this phrase that I think I didn't hear of from when I was young. Saturday I found my father that was hammering some nails to a wall; I looked better, and he was using a "rollable meter" (don't know the exact word, it's the type that masons use, the heavy metallic-cased ones) to hammer the nails. I asked him why, and he just said: "My father used to say, if you haven't a dog, go hunting with the cat."
I think that this phrase can be used to link in this discussion the two types of "perfectionists" thta we finally isolated: the one aiming for excellence and the pathologic one that wastes his time.
What I'm trying to say is that in the pursue of perfection, we should always consider which resources we have *at this time*. Just because a better way of doing something exists, it doesn't mean we can't work out things perfectly without it. And then, we can always enter a "buy a hammer" in our list for the next time, depending on how many nails we have to hang. Do you agree?
October 17, 2011 at 12:10 |
Lorenzo
Lorenzo
New thesis. Excellence is a state of mind, a broad goal. Pursuing excellence via AutoFocus may be difficult while one is struggling to escape overwhelm and procrastination. But if things are under control, it seem good to raise your game by pursuing excellence. I suspect this ought to be done incrementally by picking one thing after another to direct towards excellence.
Excellent results do not often come by fixing poor work (though that is possible). They come more by intending an excellent result from the beginning. This may require rethinking the approach. It might suggest dropping some unimportant distraction. It does not preclude working in many small increments, but it might entail concerted thought before the start to establish the best route to success.
Excellent results do not often come by fixing poor work (though that is possible). They come more by intending an excellent result from the beginning. This may require rethinking the approach. It might suggest dropping some unimportant distraction. It does not preclude working in many small increments, but it might entail concerted thought before the start to establish the best route to success.
October 17, 2011 at 12:25 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
<<Do you agree?>>
I agree Lorenzo, your story brings to mind the following quote:
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are~ Theodore Roosevelt
I think that procrastination often resides in the nebulae between the resources you have and those that you desire to get the task moving.
I agree Lorenzo, your story brings to mind the following quote:
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are~ Theodore Roosevelt
I think that procrastination often resides in the nebulae between the resources you have and those that you desire to get the task moving.
October 18, 2011 at 4:38 |
JD
JD
<<I think that procrastination often resides in the nebulae between the resources you have and those that you desire to get the task moving.>>
Precisely! And that often gives the right justification for not even start that task (as someone else mentioned in this thread). More often then with material tools, I experience this with skills: I preclude me from doing something thinking "before doing this I have to improve". But to improve one have to do the thing (and possibly make mistakes).
Could be cool to explore all the places procrastination resides. That could worth a new thread to me. Different people have different strategies about that, and it should be very useful to know about them all.
Precisely! And that often gives the right justification for not even start that task (as someone else mentioned in this thread). More often then with material tools, I experience this with skills: I preclude me from doing something thinking "before doing this I have to improve". But to improve one have to do the thing (and possibly make mistakes).
Could be cool to explore all the places procrastination resides. That could worth a new thread to me. Different people have different strategies about that, and it should be very useful to know about them all.
October 18, 2011 at 10:38 |
Lorenzo
Lorenzo
So, imperfection is fine when you're saving resources toward something more worthwhile, yes?
Procrastination is when you're not deploying resources in a timely manner as you should be?
Procrastination is when you're not deploying resources in a timely manner as you should be?
October 18, 2011 at 11:31 |
smileypete
smileypete
Most cases of procrastination are where you really have the resources to do something, but don't believe or feel that you do. Agreed.
But I'm not sure this notion of "saving resources" really describes very much. People may decide to do some other worthy thing instead of X. But this is not procrastination, not saving resources. It's expending resources in another direction. Spending time to rest when needed is a deliberate choice not connected to procrastination nor imperfection.
Maybe instead of "saving", we should say "allocating" time and energy. My conclusion from this thread is we should choose proactively which things get our time and energy, and do those things well.
But I'm not sure this notion of "saving resources" really describes very much. People may decide to do some other worthy thing instead of X. But this is not procrastination, not saving resources. It's expending resources in another direction. Spending time to rest when needed is a deliberate choice not connected to procrastination nor imperfection.
Maybe instead of "saving", we should say "allocating" time and energy. My conclusion from this thread is we should choose proactively which things get our time and energy, and do those things well.
October 18, 2011 at 16:12 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu





<< "Trying" is blurrier then "aiming to", right? >>
Yes, but "trying to be a perfect cook" suggests that your main concern would be to show off how good a cook you were, while with "aiming to be a perfect cook" your main concern would be to learn, develop and improve your cooking. It's the difference between Halvorson's two types of goal, which I've described at least twice during this discussion.
<< If I were aiming to become a cook I'd dig much more in techniques, traditions, physics ecc. >>
That wasn't my question. Since you already are a cook, "aiming to become a cook" suggests that you would be intending to turn professional, which you are not.
My question was "What difference would it make if you were aiming to become a perfect cook?"