Discussion Forum > Combining GTD & (and of) Mark's systems
avrum:
<< I'm coming to accept two truths (about me) >>
Would these be truths in the sense of:
a) unchangeable facts about your character, which being unchangeable there's no point making any effort to change?
OR
b) snapshots of where you are now, which by practice and commitment you can grow beyond?
<< I'm coming to accept two truths (about me) >>
Would these be truths in the sense of:
a) unchangeable facts about your character, which being unchangeable there's no point making any effort to change?
OR
b) snapshots of where you are now, which by practice and commitment you can grow beyond?
October 29, 2011 at 11:03 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
<<b) snapshots of where you are now, which by practice and commitment you can grow beyond?>>
This would be true.... I think. My 2 stated truths (I'm sure there's more) led to a realization that once the novel phase of a new system ends (appx 2 weeks) it might be sustained with support material & fun tools. Trivial to some, a possible deal breaker for me. We'll see.
This would be true.... I think. My 2 stated truths (I'm sure there's more) led to a realization that once the novel phase of a new system ends (appx 2 weeks) it might be sustained with support material & fun tools. Trivial to some, a possible deal breaker for me. We'll see.
October 29, 2011 at 14:51 |
avrum
avrum
I am trying my own system loosely based on AF1 using a free form notebook. It uses a daily plan with elements of DIT (a Will Do and a CI). Not really AF or DIT, it is arising out of my continuing use of Dreams. I realized there is no magic pill and while waiting for the Final Version, I have decided to reflect and think more about what elements work for me in the various systems and how to best use them in a way that supports the particular nature of academic work,.
Something I have become much more aware of (via coaching from my Future Self) is the importance of work context. My ADHD brain is able to better focus with *changes* in work environment. The need to change context depends on the type of work and how difficult it is for me (difficult = tedious or an overwhelming project not yet broken down into doable actions). While a GTDer, I never really found "context" to be useful, since as long as I am in my office I have most work contexts available to me. But now "context" has a somewhat different meaning and purpose.
While making my Daily Plan, I think about how much resistance I am feeling towards each task. I may go back and dialogue with my FS some more if the resistance is especially high. I think about the conditions that would reduce the resistance, based on past experience with that type of task, e.g., does it need to be broken down more (just get out the file)?
I now have a list of contexts in which I can be productive, ranging from my university and home offices to various libraries (with wifi and beautiful spaces) to cafes and outdoor space. I can also be amazingly productive in "transitional" contexts (e.g., riding the bus to work -- great at overcoming high resistance).
Each of these contexts is associated with different tools (iPad with 3G, net book needing wifi but not electricity, large laptop that needs access to an electrical outlet).
In planning my day, I match the resistance level with my tools and contexts. I have enough life experience now to have a fairly good idea of what might work.
Although this sounds like a "push" approach, I try to stay grounded in Dreams and my vision and my feelings. As part of using Dreams, I learned that I need the right kinds of structures to support my motivation and focus -- those that serve me, not vice versa. I have been afraid to take this step because I wanted to stay in "pull" mode, but this is where Dreams has led me. I think it would be easy for it to turn into "push" mode, which would no longer work for me. So the Dreams structures are the foundational ones.
Anyway, the GTD aspects are: breaking down things into granular next actions and associating the tasks quite tightly with contexts. But unlike GTD, the context is only assigned in the morning (or the night before) and it could be a different context for the same task tomorrow.
I am not sure if this is helpful, Avrum, since I am mostly starting with what I learned from Mark and bringing back a few things I learned from GTD.
Something I have become much more aware of (via coaching from my Future Self) is the importance of work context. My ADHD brain is able to better focus with *changes* in work environment. The need to change context depends on the type of work and how difficult it is for me (difficult = tedious or an overwhelming project not yet broken down into doable actions). While a GTDer, I never really found "context" to be useful, since as long as I am in my office I have most work contexts available to me. But now "context" has a somewhat different meaning and purpose.
While making my Daily Plan, I think about how much resistance I am feeling towards each task. I may go back and dialogue with my FS some more if the resistance is especially high. I think about the conditions that would reduce the resistance, based on past experience with that type of task, e.g., does it need to be broken down more (just get out the file)?
I now have a list of contexts in which I can be productive, ranging from my university and home offices to various libraries (with wifi and beautiful spaces) to cafes and outdoor space. I can also be amazingly productive in "transitional" contexts (e.g., riding the bus to work -- great at overcoming high resistance).
Each of these contexts is associated with different tools (iPad with 3G, net book needing wifi but not electricity, large laptop that needs access to an electrical outlet).
In planning my day, I match the resistance level with my tools and contexts. I have enough life experience now to have a fairly good idea of what might work.
Although this sounds like a "push" approach, I try to stay grounded in Dreams and my vision and my feelings. As part of using Dreams, I learned that I need the right kinds of structures to support my motivation and focus -- those that serve me, not vice versa. I have been afraid to take this step because I wanted to stay in "pull" mode, but this is where Dreams has led me. I think it would be easy for it to turn into "push" mode, which would no longer work for me. So the Dreams structures are the foundational ones.
Anyway, the GTD aspects are: breaking down things into granular next actions and associating the tasks quite tightly with contexts. But unlike GTD, the context is only assigned in the morning (or the night before) and it could be a different context for the same task tomorrow.
I am not sure if this is helpful, Avrum, since I am mostly starting with what I learned from Mark and bringing back a few things I learned from GTD.
October 29, 2011 at 15:28 |
silviastraka
silviastraka
@avrum: My brain needs a lot of novelty (stimulation) to function, so I am trying to build this into my system. I have had exactly the same experience you have, of needing to switch systems regularly. Like you, I am trying to find ways to build that need for change and novelty into a single system.
In my case, my late life diagnosis really helped, because I was able to learn that my brain is differently wired. I read a lot about what works for people like me, try things out, generalize my learning and build it into my work system.
Reading these fora has really helped and I am very grateful to Mark, who encourages this kind of reflection, and all of you who post about what you are learning about your work process. Avrum, you are one of those people and I thank you.
In my case, my late life diagnosis really helped, because I was able to learn that my brain is differently wired. I read a lot about what works for people like me, try things out, generalize my learning and build it into my work system.
Reading these fora has really helped and I am very grateful to Mark, who encourages this kind of reflection, and all of you who post about what you are learning about your work process. Avrum, you are one of those people and I thank you.
October 29, 2011 at 15:38 |
silviastraka
silviastraka
What if... the novelty (stimulation) were in the content, rather than the form of the system.
October 29, 2011 at 17:42 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Interesting replies.
Still curious, dis anyone find the DWM dating system helpful?
Still curious, dis anyone find the DWM dating system helpful?
October 29, 2011 at 18:49 |
avrum
avrum
<<What if... the novelty (stimulation) were in the content, rather than the form of the system.>>
Alan - you're making a faulty assumption. It's true that a system filled with dreck, regardless of tools, is going to falter. But that isn't my problem. I have a full private practice & 1-2 exciting creative projects on the go. Like silviastraka, I'm becoming more aware of what works, and trying to cobble the bits into a cohesive whole. I'd like to integrate the 7 & 30 day (+ dismissal) aspects of DWM w/ traditional GTD. I'm wondering if it will be overkill? Anyway, I'll try it and see.
Alan - you're making a faulty assumption. It's true that a system filled with dreck, regardless of tools, is going to falter. But that isn't my problem. I have a full private practice & 1-2 exciting creative projects on the go. Like silviastraka, I'm becoming more aware of what works, and trying to cobble the bits into a cohesive whole. I'd like to integrate the 7 & 30 day (+ dismissal) aspects of DWM w/ traditional GTD. I'm wondering if it will be overkill? Anyway, I'll try it and see.
October 29, 2011 at 19:55 |
avrum
avrum
I hear you. "Familiarity breeds contempt" - with inlaws and systems.
Dates: I don't mind dating, but I didn't like DWM's waterfall. Ironically I've put it back into my system: After two days, everything is on notice to shift to the backlog. I give myself one chance to rescue stuff, and the rest goes away for about week as I cycle around the backlog.
Dates: I don't mind dating, but I didn't like DWM's waterfall. Ironically I've put it back into my system: After two days, everything is on notice to shift to the backlog. I give myself one chance to rescue stuff, and the rest goes away for about week as I cycle around the backlog.
October 29, 2011 at 21:31 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Hi Avrum,
I recently went from DWM2 back to AF4. I found the dated dismissal was actually slowing the system down. Having old tasks hang around, not knowing whether or not I should delete them before the forced dismissal, really weighed on my mind and caused me to avoid my list.
My current AF4 list is no longer than one week old - the backlog is cleared/dismissed regularly and really keeps the important things moving. It gives me a good sense of how full my plate is.
I recently went from DWM2 back to AF4. I found the dated dismissal was actually slowing the system down. Having old tasks hang around, not knowing whether or not I should delete them before the forced dismissal, really weighed on my mind and caused me to avoid my list.
My current AF4 list is no longer than one week old - the backlog is cleared/dismissed regularly and really keeps the important things moving. It gives me a good sense of how full my plate is.
October 29, 2011 at 21:34 |
Sabrina
Sabrina
Sabrina:
<< not knowing whether or not I should delete them before the forced dismissal>>
The only time you should delete a task _before_ the forced dismissal is if it becomes totally obvious that the task is no longer relevant for whatever reason. Otherwise tasks should be left in the list. It's the job of the dismissal process to get rid of them.
Similarly the _only_ criteria for whether a task should be done or not is whether it stands out or not. Tasks which haven't stood out by the dismissal date are dismissed - end of story.
If you stick to this and don't try to make conscious decisions you will find that the approaching "waterfall" won't cause you to avoid your list.
<< not knowing whether or not I should delete them before the forced dismissal>>
The only time you should delete a task _before_ the forced dismissal is if it becomes totally obvious that the task is no longer relevant for whatever reason. Otherwise tasks should be left in the list. It's the job of the dismissal process to get rid of them.
Similarly the _only_ criteria for whether a task should be done or not is whether it stands out or not. Tasks which haven't stood out by the dismissal date are dismissed - end of story.
If you stick to this and don't try to make conscious decisions you will find that the approaching "waterfall" won't cause you to avoid your list.
October 29, 2011 at 23:55 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
I am still experimenting a gtd basis with an af approch.
Basically I kept all gtd exept for contexts and next action
The idea is to keep af for action whixh are actionable and what is not on project.
It works on paper with folders. I am still testing it but i like it because it is fully operational
Basically I kept all gtd exept for contexts and next action
The idea is to keep af for action whixh are actionable and what is not on project.
It works on paper with folders. I am still testing it but i like it because it is fully operational
October 30, 2011 at 9:28 |
FocusGuy.
FocusGuy.
Jupiter -
Funny, I'm trying to stick with a context & project for each next action. Reading Creating Flow with Omnifocus: http://usingomnifocus.com/ - I've come to appreciate this practice/habit. As an aside, it's a great read, regardless if you use Omnifocus or not. The author is a psychiatrist/psychoanalyst, professional musician and blogger.
Funny, I'm trying to stick with a context & project for each next action. Reading Creating Flow with Omnifocus: http://usingomnifocus.com/ - I've come to appreciate this practice/habit. As an aside, it's a great read, regardless if you use Omnifocus or not. The author is a psychiatrist/psychoanalyst, professional musician and blogger.
October 30, 2011 at 12:49 |
avrum
avrum
Hi Avrum
As an omnifocus 's practitionner I red it. I finaly stop using omnifocus. The reason is that i spent more time organizing my work than doing. So again, i came back to paper with this time paper folders. The idea was to creat a mental separation between each kind of stuff.
I love reading this forum because I can see tips of alls with many ways of doing things what is really interesting. I arrived to the conclusion that computer are great for collecting but the real power is choosing. Here paper is incredibly efficient because it is always fully operational, easy and adaptable.
Of course this experience is based on my own experiments. Others willl swear only but computers. I don t. It tooks me time to realize this.
As an omnifocus 's practitionner I red it. I finaly stop using omnifocus. The reason is that i spent more time organizing my work than doing. So again, i came back to paper with this time paper folders. The idea was to creat a mental separation between each kind of stuff.
I love reading this forum because I can see tips of alls with many ways of doing things what is really interesting. I arrived to the conclusion that computer are great for collecting but the real power is choosing. Here paper is incredibly efficient because it is always fully operational, easy and adaptable.
Of course this experience is based on my own experiments. Others willl swear only but computers. I don t. It tooks me time to realize this.
October 30, 2011 at 14:55 |
FocusGuy.
FocusGuy.
<<Others willl swear only but computers>>
The only thing I swear by... the most reliable indicator of all indicators, is that when I'm mucking around with my "system" I'm avoiding creative work.
Every
Single
Time.
Like now ;)
The only thing I swear by... the most reliable indicator of all indicators, is that when I'm mucking around with my "system" I'm avoiding creative work.
Every
Single
Time.
Like now ;)
October 30, 2011 at 16:53 |
avrum
avrum
I've had a go at GTD but failed miserably. It had too much overhead for me and I ended up with just too many bits of paper and lists and contexts everywhere. David Allen is very good at providing an initial motivation, but I fail to keep it going. I'm sure there are either certain types of work, or certain types of people for which this works, but it's not for me.
What I have had more luck with is a mixture of TMI and Mark Forster. TMI (Time Manager International) tends to make you focus on goals and key areas which is good for me at the moment (I have a tendency to fire-fight all the time). The tasks which come out of goals and key areas should go into your planner (something like a hard landscape). There is then a 'todo' or 'don't forget' section which is where all your general tasks are listed. This is the area which can be worked with either AF or SF or whatever of Mark's systems you prefer.
It sort of makes sense to me as the todos are really what we have to do to make our personal and business lives function. They also help us remember all those things we are asked to do. The goals and key areas is something separate where we make plans to develop our business, drive personal development, or just plan out the new garden design.
I have always had this sort of muddling of time management / project management / goals which I think has held me back in the past.
I'd be interested to know if you think I have lost the plot, or if I am on to something here!
What I have had more luck with is a mixture of TMI and Mark Forster. TMI (Time Manager International) tends to make you focus on goals and key areas which is good for me at the moment (I have a tendency to fire-fight all the time). The tasks which come out of goals and key areas should go into your planner (something like a hard landscape). There is then a 'todo' or 'don't forget' section which is where all your general tasks are listed. This is the area which can be worked with either AF or SF or whatever of Mark's systems you prefer.
It sort of makes sense to me as the todos are really what we have to do to make our personal and business lives function. They also help us remember all those things we are asked to do. The goals and key areas is something separate where we make plans to develop our business, drive personal development, or just plan out the new garden design.
I have always had this sort of muddling of time management / project management / goals which I think has held me back in the past.
I'd be interested to know if you think I have lost the plot, or if I am on to something here!
October 31, 2011 at 18:16 |
Alison Reeves
Alison Reeves
avrum:
<< when I'm mucking around with my "system" I'm avoiding creative work. >>
Of course, mucking around with my systems _is_ my creative work.
<< when I'm mucking around with my "system" I'm avoiding creative work. >>
Of course, mucking around with my systems _is_ my creative work.
October 31, 2011 at 19:15 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
<<Of course, mucking around with my systems _is_ my creative work. >>
Having just signed up for a 14 day trail of GTD Connect, I may as well make this my creative work (or study) as well.
Having just signed up for a 14 day trail of GTD Connect, I may as well make this my creative work (or study) as well.
November 2, 2011 at 0:18 |
avrum
avrum
Alison: <<I love reading this forum because I can see tips of alls with many ways of doing things what is really interesting. >> I agree. It's the modern version of Aristotle's "How should a man live?" I think the tension between what we are all doing and a vision of beautiful living and thriving (prospering) provided by "Dreams" is a helpful thing.
November 2, 2011 at 12:24 |
michael
michael
Day 5 using the following:
System:
GTD (project, next actions)
DWM (New tasks = 1 month, Unfinished tasks = 1 week)
18 Minutes (iPhone alarm goes off every hour --> Creating mindfulness & reminding me to recommit to an activity that represents my Best Self).
Tools:
Omnifocus
Circa Levenger
Also, I'm mining the info on gtdconnect.com. A lot of great stuff.
System:
GTD (project, next actions)
DWM (New tasks = 1 month, Unfinished tasks = 1 week)
18 Minutes (iPhone alarm goes off every hour --> Creating mindfulness & reminding me to recommit to an activity that represents my Best Self).
Tools:
Omnifocus
Circa Levenger
Also, I'm mining the info on gtdconnect.com. A lot of great stuff.
November 3, 2011 at 18:16 |
avrum
avrum
I'm Bending my systems to fit this thread.
http://www.markforster.net/forum/post/1602854 http://www.markforster.net/forum/post/1616504
My idea is to aggressively push stuff from AF into projects. It should be easy to reduce autofocus to 60 tasks or less, including projects. All tasks are either Do soon, Do later, Do on schedule, Do at a certain place/time, or Don't. Only the first need stay in AF. The second and fourth can fit into project planning. Here's the scheme (not rules):
If something is not ready to do, I consider under what circumstance I will be ready. Usually, the thing will be put into a project, and the project itself added to my list. Next, in processing the project, I consider goals, plans, etc., and select an action or two for AF. Later after working an item, I reconsider the project, and what to do next.
The effect I hope for is
1) very fast AF
2) clear view of all important projects
3) ability to decide what projects to focus on
4) no sense of stuff hiding in corners forgotten
6) systemizing efficiency within groups of similar tasks.
http://www.markforster.net/forum/post/1602854 http://www.markforster.net/forum/post/1616504
My idea is to aggressively push stuff from AF into projects. It should be easy to reduce autofocus to 60 tasks or less, including projects. All tasks are either Do soon, Do later, Do on schedule, Do at a certain place/time, or Don't. Only the first need stay in AF. The second and fourth can fit into project planning. Here's the scheme (not rules):
If something is not ready to do, I consider under what circumstance I will be ready. Usually, the thing will be put into a project, and the project itself added to my list. Next, in processing the project, I consider goals, plans, etc., and select an action or two for AF. Later after working an item, I reconsider the project, and what to do next.
The effect I hope for is
1) very fast AF
2) clear view of all important projects
3) ability to decide what projects to focus on
4) no sense of stuff hiding in corners forgotten
6) systemizing efficiency within groups of similar tasks.
November 3, 2011 at 23:46 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Alan wrote:
<< My idea is to aggressively push stuff from AF into projects. >>
I tried that many times and it didn't work (for me). The project alone, as an entry in my AF list, didn't capture my interest or attention -- it needed some detail, some reason for action, some context, some sense of the urgency and priority of the "Do Soon" actions. I found I lost my sense of familiarity with the details of the projects. This completely dulled the "standing out" effect.
Result:
- One-off tasks stood out too often, focusing my attention on administrivia and other immediately actionable details that did not contribute to the big important "real" work.
- Projects would not stand out at all till the one-offs were cleared out of the way.
- When the one-offs were cleared away, every single project would stand out, driven by my anxiety of having lost touch with the details of said project.
Including the project page as a page within the AF book has solved that, by keeping all the projects integrated into one single system that gets processed the same way, and cycling through the projects frequently, thus keeping the actionable details fresh in my mind.
<< My idea is to aggressively push stuff from AF into projects. >>
I tried that many times and it didn't work (for me). The project alone, as an entry in my AF list, didn't capture my interest or attention -- it needed some detail, some reason for action, some context, some sense of the urgency and priority of the "Do Soon" actions. I found I lost my sense of familiarity with the details of the projects. This completely dulled the "standing out" effect.
Result:
- One-off tasks stood out too often, focusing my attention on administrivia and other immediately actionable details that did not contribute to the big important "real" work.
- Projects would not stand out at all till the one-offs were cleared out of the way.
- When the one-offs were cleared away, every single project would stand out, driven by my anxiety of having lost touch with the details of said project.
Including the project page as a page within the AF book has solved that, by keeping all the projects integrated into one single system that gets processed the same way, and cycling through the projects frequently, thus keeping the actionable details fresh in my mind.
November 10, 2011 at 7:53 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Avrum wrote:
<< Still curious, dis anyone find the DWM dating system helpful? >>
Yes, I used it successfully for at least six or nine months, although I spent a lot of time on days 1-7 and very rarely looked at days 8-30.
<< Still curious, dis anyone find the DWM dating system helpful? >>
Yes, I used it successfully for at least six or nine months, although I spent a lot of time on days 1-7 and very rarely looked at days 8-30.
November 10, 2011 at 7:55 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
I'm keenly aware of the possible problem Seraphim cites. My angle emphasizes putting tasks from a project back into the AF list. Working a project means just studying it and maybe pulling something out. My hope is this pattern makes it easier and therefore more compelling to dive into projects and retain familiarity. Hyperlinks help tremendously.
For your approach, I got dizzy moving sections, moving pages, and tracking where I was at. Tell me that's not a problem!
For your approach, I got dizzy moving sections, moving pages, and tracking where I was at. Tell me that's not a problem!
November 10, 2011 at 12:12 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Alan:
<< For your approach, I got dizzy moving sections, moving pages, and tracking where I was at. Tell me that's not a problem! >>
It's not a problem. LOL
Seriously, maybe I should do a Camtasia demo or something. It really does seem simple. Or maybe it seems simple to me, because I work OneNote like this all day when I'm at my computer.
<< For your approach, I got dizzy moving sections, moving pages, and tracking where I was at. Tell me that's not a problem! >>
It's not a problem. LOL
Seriously, maybe I should do a Camtasia demo or something. It really does seem simple. Or maybe it seems simple to me, because I work OneNote like this all day when I'm at my computer.
November 10, 2011 at 15:54 |
Seraphim
Seraphim





** Yes, I've poo poo'ed the OCD'ish qualities of GTD. However the following three activities:
1. Listening to Merlin Mann's podcast: http://5by5.tv/b2w
2. Beta testing zendone (zendone.com)
3. Reading Creating Flow with Omnifocus: http://usingomnifocus.com/
are causing me to rethink my position. I'm coming to accept two truths (about me):
1. All systems fail (post-honeymoon period)
2. To keep systems fresh, I require sexy tools and a plethora of discussion and multimedia