Discussion Forum > If You're Busy You're Doing It Wrong
Well I have some doubts regarding the article: (1) Dr. Ericsson is strong behaviorist, lowering the role of talent. His theory is (in short): the more you practice, the better performer you are. What about this interpretation: The better talent you have, the more you like the practice because the sooner you see results, the more you understand the music, the more you enjoy it etc., so the more time you spend on it. It is like saying that Mozart spent ten thousands of hours practicing composing music, but me not. However, I doubt that the explaining factor why Mozart`s composition would be better than mine, are these hours of practicing...
(2) As for hours spending working/relaxing, I like this notion. I am also advocate of short bursts, and not long not-productive work. But again, I do not agree with the interpretation that this schedule per se MAKES high achievers - it can be interpreted by many other ways: e.g. "elite players" might be really specialized in their subject, without need to work in other areas, whereas more "scanner" types (as Barbara Sher says it) with many passions may participate in more diverse "work" activities. Or, "elite players" might just be so talented in music, that also other school/work activities (music theory, second instrument etc) are easier for them, so it is OK for them to spend less time on them etc.
I know many very talented people with exceptional results who are almost burned out and totally exhausted, and I know also similar high achievers, who still have time for relaxing. It is about personality and working style. So generally, I view these results as interesting, however I would be cautious to make the causality link as the article could be interpreted.
(2) As for hours spending working/relaxing, I like this notion. I am also advocate of short bursts, and not long not-productive work. But again, I do not agree with the interpretation that this schedule per se MAKES high achievers - it can be interpreted by many other ways: e.g. "elite players" might be really specialized in their subject, without need to work in other areas, whereas more "scanner" types (as Barbara Sher says it) with many passions may participate in more diverse "work" activities. Or, "elite players" might just be so talented in music, that also other school/work activities (music theory, second instrument etc) are easier for them, so it is OK for them to spend less time on them etc.
I know many very talented people with exceptional results who are almost burned out and totally exhausted, and I know also similar high achievers, who still have time for relaxing. It is about personality and working style. So generally, I view these results as interesting, however I would be cautious to make the causality link as the article could be interpreted.
November 11, 2011 at 10:26 |
Daneb
Daneb
Hi Rian Thanks for sharing it is very interesting.
It reminds me one thing. As I am on my own I try to take holidays. More than the average people. I can take 2 month per year ! I always realized that before leaving my office, I mean the week before I am always very efficient. I don't know how but I don't loose any time. I work hard and short. I select more and do the things I must do not more.
Also I read in timothy Ferry's book that is main talent is not to make others working for him i.e. to delegate, BUThis ability to make a good choice amoung his goals and tasks.
AT last I meet many business maker in my job. I am always impressed by some. Not n-because of them results or their personality or caracter but because of their focus. When they speak to me they are with me. I mean they cut their mobile, ask to be not interrupted, don't do anything else but stay concentrate with me. Some don't take any notes or only a few. They seem quiet and peaceful. I also meet many who are exactly the opposite they never stop doing anything. I prefer working with the quiets it is much more interesting.
It reminds me one thing. As I am on my own I try to take holidays. More than the average people. I can take 2 month per year ! I always realized that before leaving my office, I mean the week before I am always very efficient. I don't know how but I don't loose any time. I work hard and short. I select more and do the things I must do not more.
Also I read in timothy Ferry's book that is main talent is not to make others working for him i.e. to delegate, BUThis ability to make a good choice amoung his goals and tasks.
AT last I meet many business maker in my job. I am always impressed by some. Not n-because of them results or their personality or caracter but because of their focus. When they speak to me they are with me. I mean they cut their mobile, ask to be not interrupted, don't do anything else but stay concentrate with me. Some don't take any notes or only a few. They seem quiet and peaceful. I also meet many who are exactly the opposite they never stop doing anything. I prefer working with the quiets it is much more interesting.
November 11, 2011 at 10:34 |
FocusGuy.
FocusGuy.
Another reason for the work/rest pattern is explained in Breakthrough Thinking. The authors find that the way to peak achievement is to get in the Zone. That zone comes first from skill achieved through experience, but secondly also requires a pattern of hard work in your specialty, followed by a complete switch off of the work to something relaxing and engaging, followed by intensive return to focus on the task.
In brief, alternate work and play, both with enthusiasm.
In brief, alternate work and play, both with enthusiasm.
November 11, 2011 at 13:02 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
I've read before that one can predict the future success of music school students with a high degree of accuracy simply from the number of hours of focused and purposeful practice they put in.
But I also agree with Daneb that no one is going to put all those hours of practice in unless they have a natural affinity to the subject.
But I also agree with Daneb that no one is going to put all those hours of practice in unless they have a natural affinity to the subject.
November 11, 2011 at 15:09 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Reminds me of this:
"One Week On, One Week Off" by Steve Pavlina
http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2010/02/one-week-on-one-week-off/
Regarding the music practice, I have another theory about all this. The elite players never stop thinking about their craft, even when they are relaxing. This is not out of discipline or intensity, but out of sheer affinity for the topic. When I go to the supermarket and hear the music playing overhead, I recognize chord progressions and decode melodies, without any agenda to practice. It's just what I like to do when I hear music. So a half-hour of shopping is a half-hour of ear training. If I go to a party and hear a new song, I will come home being able to play most of it on my first try. This kind of hidden practice adds up over the years, but it is not reflected when you ask people to log their practice sessions.
Meanwhile, I am oblivious to the visual forms in the store. I suppose if I were a visual artist, my mind would be playing with all the colors and symmetries, homing in on the package designs I like best, analyzing what is successful about them, etc. But it goes right past me. If I enrolled in a visual arts program, I would be easily surpassed by the students who "practiced" while they shopped, drove across town, went for a walk, etc.
"One Week On, One Week Off" by Steve Pavlina
http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2010/02/one-week-on-one-week-off/
Regarding the music practice, I have another theory about all this. The elite players never stop thinking about their craft, even when they are relaxing. This is not out of discipline or intensity, but out of sheer affinity for the topic. When I go to the supermarket and hear the music playing overhead, I recognize chord progressions and decode melodies, without any agenda to practice. It's just what I like to do when I hear music. So a half-hour of shopping is a half-hour of ear training. If I go to a party and hear a new song, I will come home being able to play most of it on my first try. This kind of hidden practice adds up over the years, but it is not reflected when you ask people to log their practice sessions.
Meanwhile, I am oblivious to the visual forms in the store. I suppose if I were a visual artist, my mind would be playing with all the colors and symmetries, homing in on the package designs I like best, analyzing what is successful about them, etc. But it goes right past me. If I enrolled in a visual arts program, I would be easily surpassed by the students who "practiced" while they shopped, drove across town, went for a walk, etc.
November 11, 2011 at 15:12 |
Bernie
Bernie
Another thought just came to me, which is that most of us don't want to be top performers in one field. We're much more interested in being competent performers in a wide variety of fields. So the advice in the article may simply not be relevant to most people.
November 11, 2011 at 15:18 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
<<most of us don't want to be top performers in one field.>>
Bingo!
I've always considered myself to be a Swanson Meal sorta guy. I like a little bit of this, and that.
Bingo!
I've always considered myself to be a Swanson Meal sorta guy. I like a little bit of this, and that.
November 11, 2011 at 16:55 |
avrum
avrum
Mark wrote:
<< Another thought just came to me, which is that most of us don't want to be top performers in one field. We're much more interested in being competent performers in a wide variety of fields. So the advice in the article may simply not be relevant to most people. >>
I'm wondering how this insight might relate to the recent discussion on "perfection".
<< Another thought just came to me, which is that most of us don't want to be top performers in one field. We're much more interested in being competent performers in a wide variety of fields. So the advice in the article may simply not be relevant to most people. >>
I'm wondering how this insight might relate to the recent discussion on "perfection".
November 11, 2011 at 19:02 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
<<I'm wondering how this insight might relate to the recent discussion on "perfection". >>
Seth Godin's "Ship It" comes to mind. I'm in the process of writing a children's book. My writing, drawing and photoshops skills are average at best. And yet, I'm committed to launching this sucka come hell or high water.
I will self-publish this book!!! And for two reasons:
1. So my son will have a book penned by his ol'man
2. To prove to myself that I can create a real thing, from start to finish.
Seth Godin's "Ship It" comes to mind. I'm in the process of writing a children's book. My writing, drawing and photoshops skills are average at best. And yet, I'm committed to launching this sucka come hell or high water.
I will self-publish this book!!! And for two reasons:
1. So my son will have a book penned by his ol'man
2. To prove to myself that I can create a real thing, from start to finish.
November 11, 2011 at 19:10 |
avrum
avrum
The research doesn't show that practice makes a difference, but that deliberate practice makes a difference. The hard stuff - practicing scales over and over for instance. Notice that the elites and the averages spent, on average, the same number of hours practicing. The difference was in how they spent that time.
See Malcolm Gladwell's Outliers, chapter 2, "The 10,000-Hour Rule".
See Malcolm Gladwell's Outliers, chapter 2, "The 10,000-Hour Rule".
November 11, 2011 at 20:20 |
Zane
Zane
<<<The research doesn't show that practice makes a difference, but that deliberate practice makes a difference.>>>
I'm currently reading Daniel Coyle's "The Talent Code" (subtitle: Greatness isn't born, it's grown"). It addresses this subject. What you refer to as deliberate practice, he calls "deep practice", i.e. working at the limits of your ability, being prepared to make mistakes and instantly correct them. This requires focus and hard work (the almost proverbial 10.000 hours / 10 years).
This deep practice is a key element of becoming very good at something. But there is more. What is referred to above as affinity, or the reason why some people are prepared to spend all those hours while others don't, he calls "ignition". The spark that triggers someone in a direction and makes them want to excel. And there, luck/coincidence plays a big part.
The third part of his "talent" equation is called "master coaching". I've just started that section of the book, so I can't yet say much about it.
All in all an entertaining read with some good insights.
I'm currently reading Daniel Coyle's "The Talent Code" (subtitle: Greatness isn't born, it's grown"). It addresses this subject. What you refer to as deliberate practice, he calls "deep practice", i.e. working at the limits of your ability, being prepared to make mistakes and instantly correct them. This requires focus and hard work (the almost proverbial 10.000 hours / 10 years).
This deep practice is a key element of becoming very good at something. But there is more. What is referred to above as affinity, or the reason why some people are prepared to spend all those hours while others don't, he calls "ignition". The spark that triggers someone in a direction and makes them want to excel. And there, luck/coincidence plays a big part.
The third part of his "talent" equation is called "master coaching". I've just started that section of the book, so I can't yet say much about it.
All in all an entertaining read with some good insights.
November 12, 2011 at 17:41 |
Marc (from Brussels)
Marc (from Brussels)
One of my favourite stories (forgive me if I've bored you with this already) concerns a Russian elite fencer visited by my coach in the late 60s/ early 70s. After watching him spend an hour practicing the simplest of parries (quarte) hundreds of times, my coach was appalled by the joyless routine of his training. "I can't think why anyone would submit to this" he said: "what is it that you actually enjoy about fencing?"
The reply was one word: "winning."
The reply was one word: "winning."
November 14, 2011 at 9:22 |
Will
Will
Apparently "elite" performers work in batches of intense, deliberate practice and spend more time on leisure than average performers.
Seems consistent with the days presented by Mark in "Do It Tomorrow", especially strictly enforced working limits.