Discussion Forum > What's really going on?
Hi Man of Kent. I think you are right and better approach to change is to look into ourselves then looking for best management system in hope it will solve our problems.
At least this worked for me, when I abandoned looking for perfect system and focused more on myself (which in my case was attending for addiction therapy also) things started to improve slowly even without much planning and focusing on that.
I think it is great to have some simple system and Mark’s ones are top notch in that category, but for me it was only 10%, rest was somewhere else.
At least this worked for me, when I abandoned looking for perfect system and focused more on myself (which in my case was attending for addiction therapy also) things started to improve slowly even without much planning and focusing on that.
I think it is great to have some simple system and Mark’s ones are top notch in that category, but for me it was only 10%, rest was somewhere else.
March 12, 2013 at 7:07 |
Navigare
Navigare
Your 'inner chimp' may be playing up!
Check out 'The Chimp Paradox' by Dr Steve Peters - I hope you find it as helpful as I am doing.
Check out 'The Chimp Paradox' by Dr Steve Peters - I hope you find it as helpful as I am doing.
March 12, 2013 at 11:27 |
leon
leon
Man of Kent:
I had a chat with a career coach a while back. She's into Myers-Briggs and I told her I was an INTJ (introvert, thinking, judgement -- sort of the classic "in my head" person). I was describing all the coaching and habits and stuff I'm involved with; my first coach asked me one time, "But Mike, what do you want to get better *for*?" and I had no answer to that.
She said that INTJs like to solve problems. So she asked me to try on the idea that, maybe, possibly, I have a good life and actually don't have any real problems in my life. But, since my mind is tuned to solve problems, it kind of turns in on itself when there are no problems "out there" for it to solve. Therefore, my mind will create problems to be solved -- procrastination, time and money management, eating, exercise, etc. -- so it has something to keep itself busy and occupied.
All of which to say -- I think in life we're often trying to find "solutions" to non-existent "problems." My mind calls procrastination and motivation a problem and therefore it needs to be solved. QED. Therefore, I must needs find the ultimate list solution/energy management/affirmation, etc that keeps me moving forward because obviously my life will disappear down a burning spiral into the outer darkness unless I DO SOMETHING about it. So I get into what Stephen Fry calls "idea-shaped solutions" (like your pre-bought food) instead of "human-shaped solutions," that account for the fact of our emotions and our messy natures.
(I'd also venture a guess that your meeting with your boss's boss had you thinking that you needed to be someone or something other than yourself, and that may be what caused you anxiety. You were trying to be your idea of what he wanted to see.)
But when I took the career coach's advice and tried on her idea that I have no problems, really, that I'm fine the way I am and fine with the way things are, it was amazing to me how quiet my mind got. A lot of the thought-static in there settled down and I was able to be a lot less emotional about my perceived "problems."
I have found that I still like keeping a master list of things (it's proven too useful to me to abandon, particularly the "waiting for" items), but I adopt different work- and list-strategies based on the day's demands. Today will be totally devoted to a single project and meetings. Tomorrow, I will probably use SMEMA, and when I can't think of anything to do, I will refer to my master list and do an FV chain. I let my intuition guide me instead of holding to a pre-determined routine. Mark has been very generous in providing us with a lot of different algorithms, and I find that some days demand a certain type of attention that are well served by some of those algorithms.
All of which to say -- yes! It is and can be simpler than we make it out to be. But it's also so much fun to play with systems, that I don't think we're going to stop playing with them and inventing them anytime soon.
Sorry for the long and logorrific post! Your post just seemed to hit my buttons today.
I had a chat with a career coach a while back. She's into Myers-Briggs and I told her I was an INTJ (introvert, thinking, judgement -- sort of the classic "in my head" person). I was describing all the coaching and habits and stuff I'm involved with; my first coach asked me one time, "But Mike, what do you want to get better *for*?" and I had no answer to that.
She said that INTJs like to solve problems. So she asked me to try on the idea that, maybe, possibly, I have a good life and actually don't have any real problems in my life. But, since my mind is tuned to solve problems, it kind of turns in on itself when there are no problems "out there" for it to solve. Therefore, my mind will create problems to be solved -- procrastination, time and money management, eating, exercise, etc. -- so it has something to keep itself busy and occupied.
All of which to say -- I think in life we're often trying to find "solutions" to non-existent "problems." My mind calls procrastination and motivation a problem and therefore it needs to be solved. QED. Therefore, I must needs find the ultimate list solution/energy management/affirmation, etc that keeps me moving forward because obviously my life will disappear down a burning spiral into the outer darkness unless I DO SOMETHING about it. So I get into what Stephen Fry calls "idea-shaped solutions" (like your pre-bought food) instead of "human-shaped solutions," that account for the fact of our emotions and our messy natures.
(I'd also venture a guess that your meeting with your boss's boss had you thinking that you needed to be someone or something other than yourself, and that may be what caused you anxiety. You were trying to be your idea of what he wanted to see.)
But when I took the career coach's advice and tried on her idea that I have no problems, really, that I'm fine the way I am and fine with the way things are, it was amazing to me how quiet my mind got. A lot of the thought-static in there settled down and I was able to be a lot less emotional about my perceived "problems."
I have found that I still like keeping a master list of things (it's proven too useful to me to abandon, particularly the "waiting for" items), but I adopt different work- and list-strategies based on the day's demands. Today will be totally devoted to a single project and meetings. Tomorrow, I will probably use SMEMA, and when I can't think of anything to do, I will refer to my master list and do an FV chain. I let my intuition guide me instead of holding to a pre-determined routine. Mark has been very generous in providing us with a lot of different algorithms, and I find that some days demand a certain type of attention that are well served by some of those algorithms.
All of which to say -- yes! It is and can be simpler than we make it out to be. But it's also so much fun to play with systems, that I don't think we're going to stop playing with them and inventing them anytime soon.
Sorry for the long and logorrific post! Your post just seemed to hit my buttons today.
March 12, 2013 at 15:32 |
Mike Brown
Mike Brown
I agree that time management can be used as a way to procrastinate on things we don't want to do. Also we can use it to try to make unpleasant tasks or work we don't enjoy go faster. So if I organize myself at the office I will free time up to pursue xxxxx. What you propose makes sense which is fit the system to the required situation. There are times I abandon a system and make a specific list like for a trip or a meeting. Thisis an interesting question thanks for bringing it up.
Gerry
Gerry
March 12, 2013 at 17:36 |
Gerry
Gerry
Mike Brown - I am also an INTJ and think I have some of the same tendencies. Rather than solve the immediate problem, I just naturally start looking into the overall context of the problem, the long-term implications of the problem, other related problems, and try to craft a top-to-bottom universal solution that addresses all of it. Drives my wife crazy! (My boss, too, sometimes.) (And I've probably annoyed Mark Forster many times because of it, too!)
It's a good tendency to have, if you are in the business of creating whole systems to solve some business problem -- to be able to see all these interconnections and come up with ideas that addresses the whole thing, rather than one issue in isolation.
But it can work against us, too.
In regards to time management, DIT really helped me with the bad parts of this tendency. It helped me break out of my 1000-task lists and make real progress on the things that matter. It helped me to focus, by showing me how I was going off in so many directions. I was following every thread that was related to my commitments, rather than focusing where it really matters. DIT helped me to say "no" - I will NOT follow that thread, I will NOT make a grand universal solution when a one-off ad-hoc solution will do just fine.
And SMEMA has helped even more.
Example: My wife asks me to stop and get fish at Trader Joe's on the way home from work. I start thinking of where to write it down. Then I start thinking of all my errand lists and shopping lists. An image pops into my head, showing the implicit relational data model behind these lists, and how they relate to each other. Etc. etc.
I don't do any of this deliberately. All of it pops into my head spontaneously in a fraction of a second. And I just naturally want to implement it somehow, to actually see my solution in action. The tendency is to want to build a system that addresses it.
I think this is why all those database tools (OmniFocus, etc.) can be so attractive - it gives people like us the opportunity to actually build those systems without having to write all the code ourselves. :-)
The problem is those systems don't actually accomplish the objective - going to the store and picking up the fish! They don't get the work done.
It takes a real, conscious effort to say NO to all that, and just write the errand down on a sticky and put it on my cell phone, and then STOP THINKING ABOUT IT.
SMEMA addresses this well by really making you think about it before you start writing things down and crafting any kind of master system. Ad-hoc does just fine most of the time.
It's a good tendency to have, if you are in the business of creating whole systems to solve some business problem -- to be able to see all these interconnections and come up with ideas that addresses the whole thing, rather than one issue in isolation.
But it can work against us, too.
In regards to time management, DIT really helped me with the bad parts of this tendency. It helped me break out of my 1000-task lists and make real progress on the things that matter. It helped me to focus, by showing me how I was going off in so many directions. I was following every thread that was related to my commitments, rather than focusing where it really matters. DIT helped me to say "no" - I will NOT follow that thread, I will NOT make a grand universal solution when a one-off ad-hoc solution will do just fine.
And SMEMA has helped even more.
Example: My wife asks me to stop and get fish at Trader Joe's on the way home from work. I start thinking of where to write it down. Then I start thinking of all my errand lists and shopping lists. An image pops into my head, showing the implicit relational data model behind these lists, and how they relate to each other. Etc. etc.
I don't do any of this deliberately. All of it pops into my head spontaneously in a fraction of a second. And I just naturally want to implement it somehow, to actually see my solution in action. The tendency is to want to build a system that addresses it.
I think this is why all those database tools (OmniFocus, etc.) can be so attractive - it gives people like us the opportunity to actually build those systems without having to write all the code ourselves. :-)
The problem is those systems don't actually accomplish the objective - going to the store and picking up the fish! They don't get the work done.
It takes a real, conscious effort to say NO to all that, and just write the errand down on a sticky and put it on my cell phone, and then STOP THINKING ABOUT IT.
SMEMA addresses this well by really making you think about it before you start writing things down and crafting any kind of master system. Ad-hoc does just fine most of the time.
March 12, 2013 at 18:55 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
I don't think this tendency is necessarily a displacement activity. For me, it's more often the result of naturally seeing things as whole systems rather than one-off activities, and really wanting to be more efficient, really wanting to actualize that global solution that pops into our heads.
I think this is why most stock traders are also INTJs, and why most stock traders fail. We see patterns and connections all over the place. Sometimes they are real and substantive, and we can do something useful with it. Sometimes they are only the appearance of patterns, with no underlying reality. Stock-chart readers run into this fallacy all the time. And even successful stock traders don't always realize the reason for their success - sometimes it has more to do with things like having randomly chosen a position-size management strategy that happens to help limit their risks, rather than their actual ability to predict stock movement.
Nicholas Taleb's book, Fooled by Randomness, covers a lot of this phenomenon really well.
I think this is why most stock traders are also INTJs, and why most stock traders fail. We see patterns and connections all over the place. Sometimes they are real and substantive, and we can do something useful with it. Sometimes they are only the appearance of patterns, with no underlying reality. Stock-chart readers run into this fallacy all the time. And even successful stock traders don't always realize the reason for their success - sometimes it has more to do with things like having randomly chosen a position-size management strategy that happens to help limit their risks, rather than their actual ability to predict stock movement.
Nicholas Taleb's book, Fooled by Randomness, covers a lot of this phenomenon really well.
March 12, 2013 at 19:02 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Hi Man of Kent,
This is a topic that has always interested me, because most of us (no matter how 'rational' we usually are) will catch ourselves at certain moments exhibiting really irrational behavior. And sometimes the behavior is so spontaneous or subconscious you have to wonder what's going on.
The only way I ever found to truly learn about and eliminate the root causes of unwanted behavior is a technique called self-observation, which is actually a mystical spiritual practice. There's a free ebook here: http://belsebuub.com/free-spiritual-ebooks/self-knowledge-for-spiritual-awakening where the author gets into that technique and others. Modern psychology offers endless explanations about why we behave in certain ways, tricks to overcome personality tendencies, etc., but I prefer inner/self-psychological study for its directness and permanent effects, and that's really about spiritual change (ie. learning to permanently get rid of laziness and in doing so becoming diligent.)
I know what you mean about the constant search for the perfect time management system--it can totally be a way to procrastinate, or a place to search for a solution to an unrelated problem. Whether that's the case or not depends on each person's motives for searching, which we'd all have to figure out by taking an honest look within. I do think there are valid reasons to periodically self-assess and look for new ways to improve our productivity and efficiency though.
That's one of the reasons I check this site every so often...organization and efficiency do not come naturally to me, yet I still have the desire to be very productive with my time. Good thing there are people who excel at figuring out these different systems! It makes it much easier to dive into time management without having to reinvent the wheel.
This is a topic that has always interested me, because most of us (no matter how 'rational' we usually are) will catch ourselves at certain moments exhibiting really irrational behavior. And sometimes the behavior is so spontaneous or subconscious you have to wonder what's going on.
The only way I ever found to truly learn about and eliminate the root causes of unwanted behavior is a technique called self-observation, which is actually a mystical spiritual practice. There's a free ebook here: http://belsebuub.com/free-spiritual-ebooks/self-knowledge-for-spiritual-awakening where the author gets into that technique and others. Modern psychology offers endless explanations about why we behave in certain ways, tricks to overcome personality tendencies, etc., but I prefer inner/self-psychological study for its directness and permanent effects, and that's really about spiritual change (ie. learning to permanently get rid of laziness and in doing so becoming diligent.)
I know what you mean about the constant search for the perfect time management system--it can totally be a way to procrastinate, or a place to search for a solution to an unrelated problem. Whether that's the case or not depends on each person's motives for searching, which we'd all have to figure out by taking an honest look within. I do think there are valid reasons to periodically self-assess and look for new ways to improve our productivity and efficiency though.
That's one of the reasons I check this site every so often...organization and efficiency do not come naturally to me, yet I still have the desire to be very productive with my time. Good thing there are people who excel at figuring out these different systems! It makes it much easier to dive into time management without having to reinvent the wheel.
March 13, 2013 at 3:30 |
Dara
Dara
Barring a complete answer to the original question I'll share an observation from my own "productivity" practice.
When I was doing GTD, Covey and the like, there was always the point were after the weekly review, when everything in my trusted system / tool / whatever was "nice and fresh", I had gained something. I had gained a thing, a "system", a nice thing, that in itself seemed worthwhile to have. So far so good.
But from there a somewhat subconscious vision evolved of the nice "system", the thing to have! This motivated me to have a nice system, to devote time to "improving" the shiny thing. At some point having a nice set-up seemed to be as rewarding as actually accomplishing the goals!
This happened on a subconscious level and went unnoticed by me for years, even if it was starring me in the face all the time! This aspect of not realizing what you are doing, but more precise envisioning, is a problem I think.
The good feelings that should go towards the vision of your goals archived goes unchecked towards an idea for a nifty "productivity" system.
I feel this is related to the original question, but of course I could be wrong.
When I was doing GTD, Covey and the like, there was always the point were after the weekly review, when everything in my trusted system / tool / whatever was "nice and fresh", I had gained something. I had gained a thing, a "system", a nice thing, that in itself seemed worthwhile to have. So far so good.
But from there a somewhat subconscious vision evolved of the nice "system", the thing to have! This motivated me to have a nice system, to devote time to "improving" the shiny thing. At some point having a nice set-up seemed to be as rewarding as actually accomplishing the goals!
This happened on a subconscious level and went unnoticed by me for years, even if it was starring me in the face all the time! This aspect of not realizing what you are doing, but more precise envisioning, is a problem I think.
The good feelings that should go towards the vision of your goals archived goes unchecked towards an idea for a nifty "productivity" system.
I feel this is related to the original question, but of course I could be wrong.
March 18, 2013 at 1:27 |
Christopher
Christopher
INTJ liking to solve problems makes sense. I don't feel right if there's nothing to worry about, and if there really is something to worry about I worry way too much. When I see inefficiencies around me, I think about why it developed and how it can be changed without adversely affecting the rest of the system. I had many compliments about how I improved communication and efficiency at my old job. (It was a side-effect of completely revamping the QA system.) However, I can't seem to lock into anything at home, probably because it's so easy to change things on a whim.
People with ADHD sometimes need the adrenaline rush caused by procrastination. Many time management systems work because (among other things) they move the deadline, so you get the adrenaline rush earlier.
People with ADHD sometimes need the adrenaline rush caused by procrastination. Many time management systems work because (among other things) they move the deadline, so you get the adrenaline rush earlier.
March 18, 2013 at 16:47 |
Cricket
Cricket
This has lead me to dust off an old book on transactional analysis. Whilst reading this a thought struck - the constant search for the right time management system - umm what is really going on here? Is it possible that we are finding non-aggressive ways to express our anger by procrastinating or distracting ourselves from the pain/fear of doing stuff with putting tasks in a system? Or something else?
Indeed I have wondered if for some time we've all been looking for a solution in the wrong place.