Discussion Forum > Goals or values? What would the person I want to be do now?
Michael -
I couldn't agree more. The problem is - how many people are clear about their principles and values? Few. This is why many people are willing to adopt whatever a self-help author, guru, and yes, therapist claims to be the "truth".
I think Covey had it right vis-a-vis solid principles and values. The work is:
a. Figuring out what you're principles/values are
b. Adopting a working system to support one's values/principles
I couldn't agree more. The problem is - how many people are clear about their principles and values? Few. This is why many people are willing to adopt whatever a self-help author, guru, and yes, therapist claims to be the "truth".
I think Covey had it right vis-a-vis solid principles and values. The work is:
a. Figuring out what you're principles/values are
b. Adopting a working system to support one's values/principles
May 19, 2013 at 15:18 |
avrum
avrum
Hi Avrum
Browse through Nicomachean Ethics by Aristotle. It was written sometime between 360-347 b.c. That was long before Covey. Also review the Torah and the Talmud. I can name many, many more. Why does it seem new to live by one's principles? I'd guess that most people have been doing exactly that (or at least trying their best to) since the beginning of mankind.
Covey just packaged it so sell books and seminars. It's old hat.
Browse through Nicomachean Ethics by Aristotle. It was written sometime between 360-347 b.c. That was long before Covey. Also review the Torah and the Talmud. I can name many, many more. Why does it seem new to live by one's principles? I'd guess that most people have been doing exactly that (or at least trying their best to) since the beginning of mankind.
Covey just packaged it so sell books and seminars. It's old hat.
May 19, 2013 at 21:39 |
learning as I go
learning as I go
Learning as i go:
<<Covey just packaged it so sell books and seminars. It's old hat >>
Covey never said he was reinventing the wheel. He always paid credit to the original thinkers i.e. Dr. Viktor Frankyl, from which his 7 Habits were born. He was pushing for a deeper discussion, away from character-driven tips and tricks. That was (one of) his unique contributions to the field of productivity and self-growth.
<<Covey just packaged it so sell books and seminars. It's old hat >>
Covey never said he was reinventing the wheel. He always paid credit to the original thinkers i.e. Dr. Viktor Frankyl, from which his 7 Habits were born. He was pushing for a deeper discussion, away from character-driven tips and tricks. That was (one of) his unique contributions to the field of productivity and self-growth.
May 20, 2013 at 1:02 |
avrum
avrum
Hi Avrum
I never said that Covey was plagiarizing others' ideas. I was referring to you and Michael expressing that planning and working based on your principles, values and passions and responsibilities is something new. I assume that other productivity books didn't mention it because it was understood that people wouldn't abandon their values, principles, passions and responsibilities when organizing and planning their life. Covey's roles were a unique idea but I found it redundant. Unless you're mentally challenged or a willful criminal, then you're going to guide your life based on what's important and meaningful to you. A system supposedly helps you to organize and plan. The morality, hope and vision is an ongoing process of thinking and reference that guides you. I can't even imagine that people who use systems, tips and tricks suddenly forget what's important and meaningful to them simply because it isn't mentioned by the productivity expert. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree because I can't even imagine what you're saying is possible. People are driven by what's important to them, what they believe to be true and what they think is possible within their values, principles, passions and responsibilities. It doesn't need mentioning in a time management system. It precludes it.
But maybe I just can't see what you're suggesting as possible. People learn productivity systems and abandon their own governing principles to living and planning simply because David Allen or Mark Forster didn't mention it? That seems rather silly or quite sad to me.
I never said that Covey was plagiarizing others' ideas. I was referring to you and Michael expressing that planning and working based on your principles, values and passions and responsibilities is something new. I assume that other productivity books didn't mention it because it was understood that people wouldn't abandon their values, principles, passions and responsibilities when organizing and planning their life. Covey's roles were a unique idea but I found it redundant. Unless you're mentally challenged or a willful criminal, then you're going to guide your life based on what's important and meaningful to you. A system supposedly helps you to organize and plan. The morality, hope and vision is an ongoing process of thinking and reference that guides you. I can't even imagine that people who use systems, tips and tricks suddenly forget what's important and meaningful to them simply because it isn't mentioned by the productivity expert. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree because I can't even imagine what you're saying is possible. People are driven by what's important to them, what they believe to be true and what they think is possible within their values, principles, passions and responsibilities. It doesn't need mentioning in a time management system. It precludes it.
But maybe I just can't see what you're suggesting as possible. People learn productivity systems and abandon their own governing principles to living and planning simply because David Allen or Mark Forster didn't mention it? That seems rather silly or quite sad to me.
May 20, 2013 at 17:48 |
learning as I go
learning as I go
Hi Avrum
I'm not trying to be disrespectful. I simply can't believe what you and Michael are suggesting. I'm no expert but I'd guess that almost all human beings actions and plans are guided by their values, principles, responsibilities and passions even if they modify them from time to time. I can imagine conflicting values. I can imagine willfully ignoring them but I can't imagine forgetting them all together simply because they aren't mentioned. I'd imagine that most people are guided by them even when they aren't thinking about them. Maybe I just don't understand what you and Michael are discussing. Sorry.
I'm not trying to be disrespectful. I simply can't believe what you and Michael are suggesting. I'm no expert but I'd guess that almost all human beings actions and plans are guided by their values, principles, responsibilities and passions even if they modify them from time to time. I can imagine conflicting values. I can imagine willfully ignoring them but I can't imagine forgetting them all together simply because they aren't mentioned. I'd imagine that most people are guided by them even when they aren't thinking about them. Maybe I just don't understand what you and Michael are discussing. Sorry.
May 20, 2013 at 17:58 |
learning as I go
learning as I go
I suppose you could say the truth has to be endlessly rediscovered and re-lived. The problem seems to be we need endless time and opportunity to live it, rather than just hold it as an intellectual idea.
May 20, 2013 at 18:27 |
michael
michael
@learning as i go: Just to reinforce your point I found this:
“First say to yourself what you would be, and then do what you have to do.” – Epictetus
“First say to yourself what you would be, and then do what you have to do.” – Epictetus
May 20, 2013 at 19:04 |
michael
michael
Hi Mike
I agree with some of what you say but emotions created by thoughts about perceptions (any of the 5 senses or combination or even generated by your own thoughts ) to create the stimulus. Immediately it creates a thought. If it pertains to anything you VALUE, by necessity, it will create an emotion. Emotions drive how you respond. It's impossible to think about your values, principles, responsibilities and passions without some emotion(s) created. You may choose to ignore them but they are there. It's impossible to actually have values without emotion. It's possible to unemotionally think about values that you don't embrace and don't contradict or threaten your own values.
To keep it simple, review Aristotle's "Rhetoric" as a companion to his Nicomachean Ethics. (Of course, Aristotle isn't the only person who has written about the interplay of ethics and emotions, but he happens to be my favorite) Think of the word emotion. Emotions drive AND guide your motions and subsequent thoughts even if they are relatively light or not noticed. Even when somebody is deep in "dry" accounting duties, in the background a REASON and it's emotional component is driving him to bother with it at all.
Bottom Line: If you care about anything at all, there is a corresponding emotion or cluster of emotions attached to the thought. The only way you can act is with emotion unless you're being driven by forces outside of yourself. The only way to avoid emotions attached to ideas or actions is to be ignorant of them or apathetic to them.
This is not entirely scientific fact. It's mostly my conclusions drawn from what I've learned.
I agree with some of what you say but emotions created by thoughts about perceptions (any of the 5 senses or combination or even generated by your own thoughts ) to create the stimulus. Immediately it creates a thought. If it pertains to anything you VALUE, by necessity, it will create an emotion. Emotions drive how you respond. It's impossible to think about your values, principles, responsibilities and passions without some emotion(s) created. You may choose to ignore them but they are there. It's impossible to actually have values without emotion. It's possible to unemotionally think about values that you don't embrace and don't contradict or threaten your own values.
To keep it simple, review Aristotle's "Rhetoric" as a companion to his Nicomachean Ethics. (Of course, Aristotle isn't the only person who has written about the interplay of ethics and emotions, but he happens to be my favorite) Think of the word emotion. Emotions drive AND guide your motions and subsequent thoughts even if they are relatively light or not noticed. Even when somebody is deep in "dry" accounting duties, in the background a REASON and it's emotional component is driving him to bother with it at all.
Bottom Line: If you care about anything at all, there is a corresponding emotion or cluster of emotions attached to the thought. The only way you can act is with emotion unless you're being driven by forces outside of yourself. The only way to avoid emotions attached to ideas or actions is to be ignorant of them or apathetic to them.
This is not entirely scientific fact. It's mostly my conclusions drawn from what I've learned.
May 20, 2013 at 21:32 |
Learning as I go
Learning as I go
<<all human beings actions and plans are guided by their values, principles, responsibilities and passions>>
I'd say most people are governed by a feeling-centric vs thinking/principled-centric orientation. But this isn't my idea, it's the core of Bowen Family System theory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray_Bowen
I'd say most people are governed by a feeling-centric vs thinking/principled-centric orientation. But this isn't my idea, it's the core of Bowen Family System theory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murray_Bowen
May 21, 2013 at 3:28 |
avrum
avrum
In my experience, it's easy to list values you feel you should have, but don't actually value highly enough to do the hard work.
It's also easy to focus too much on the actual tasks, and forget why you're doing them.
Mark's Future Self exercise (I think it's in Dreams) is a way to sneak up on those values, continuously refine them, and compare your actions to them. It's a nice contrast to spending a weekend setting out a nice set of values that you think you should have, and then being stuck with them until the next review.
It's also easy to focus too much on the actual tasks, and forget why you're doing them.
Mark's Future Self exercise (I think it's in Dreams) is a way to sneak up on those values, continuously refine them, and compare your actions to them. It's a nice contrast to spending a weekend setting out a nice set of values that you think you should have, and then being stuck with them until the next review.
May 21, 2013 at 15:55 |
Cricket
Cricket
Cricket
"it's easy to list values you feel you should have, but don't actually value"
This is the number one problem I have with all of those: "List your top three values..." exercises.
I think B. Sher's Wishcraft - particularly the first few chapters - does a fabulous job at fleshing out these ideas based on childhood activity and interests. Mark's Dreams does a good job of this as well.
I'd love to read more about similar approaches to, in your words, "sneak up" on one's truest values/principles.
"it's easy to list values you feel you should have, but don't actually value"
This is the number one problem I have with all of those: "List your top three values..." exercises.
I think B. Sher's Wishcraft - particularly the first few chapters - does a fabulous job at fleshing out these ideas based on childhood activity and interests. Mark's Dreams does a good job of this as well.
I'd love to read more about similar approaches to, in your words, "sneak up" on one's truest values/principles.
May 21, 2013 at 23:15 |
avrum
avrum
Hi Cricket
"Mark's Future Self exercise (I think it's in Dreams) is a way to sneak up on those values, continuously refine them, and compare your actions to them. It's a nice contrast to spending a weekend setting out a nice set of values that you think you should have, and then being stuck with them until the next review.
May 21, 2013 at 15:55 | Registered CommenterCricket
Sneak up on your values? How do you do that if you have been living by them for your whole life? I can see adding values and learning them until they are second nature by reminding yourself and testing them my real life situations but learning them is not sneaking up on them.
If you don't value something (a character trait, an ideal, a person, etc ) why would you list it as one of your values? Again, if you're trying to strengthen your use of a value and learn about it, then that will take awareness and effort for awhile. Evaluate it to see that it in fact is a value you wish to attain or merely strengthen.
Being stuck with a value until the next review? As soon as you realize it's not a value that would benefit your character or your life, drop it ASAP.
I just can't imagine how people live their lives without being aware of at least most of their values. When I have a value that conflicts with another value, that's a good teaching ground for learning how to implement your values situationally. The value isn't demoted permanently. Example: A sensative person asks how you like her dress. Rather than saying it's hideous and totally unflattering, (honesty), you could say "It's not my choice for a style, but only you can choose what you feel best in." (Kindness).
Geez! You learn this stuff since you're old enough to communicate. Plus, there are better sources to learn this than a time management/productivity site. There's not special instructions necessary. You know when you're putting in an honest effort in your work. You know when you're upholding or ignoring your values.
I think you guys are just talking in circles about the same stuff. Use the search function on Mark's site. This same discussion has been rehashed as nauseam for years and years.
I'm tired of reading the same stuff over and over.
It's time for another 2-3 year break.
learning as I go
"Mark's Future Self exercise (I think it's in Dreams) is a way to sneak up on those values, continuously refine them, and compare your actions to them. It's a nice contrast to spending a weekend setting out a nice set of values that you think you should have, and then being stuck with them until the next review.
May 21, 2013 at 15:55 | Registered CommenterCricket
Sneak up on your values? How do you do that if you have been living by them for your whole life? I can see adding values and learning them until they are second nature by reminding yourself and testing them my real life situations but learning them is not sneaking up on them.
If you don't value something (a character trait, an ideal, a person, etc ) why would you list it as one of your values? Again, if you're trying to strengthen your use of a value and learn about it, then that will take awareness and effort for awhile. Evaluate it to see that it in fact is a value you wish to attain or merely strengthen.
Being stuck with a value until the next review? As soon as you realize it's not a value that would benefit your character or your life, drop it ASAP.
I just can't imagine how people live their lives without being aware of at least most of their values. When I have a value that conflicts with another value, that's a good teaching ground for learning how to implement your values situationally. The value isn't demoted permanently. Example: A sensative person asks how you like her dress. Rather than saying it's hideous and totally unflattering, (honesty), you could say "It's not my choice for a style, but only you can choose what you feel best in." (Kindness).
Geez! You learn this stuff since you're old enough to communicate. Plus, there are better sources to learn this than a time management/productivity site. There's not special instructions necessary. You know when you're putting in an honest effort in your work. You know when you're upholding or ignoring your values.
I think you guys are just talking in circles about the same stuff. Use the search function on Mark's site. This same discussion has been rehashed as nauseam for years and years.
I'm tired of reading the same stuff over and over.
It's time for another 2-3 year break.
learning as I go
May 22, 2013 at 0:28 |
learning as I go
learning as I go
learning as i go -
<<Geez! You learn this stuff since you're old enough to communicate>>
Consider yourself fortunate. Many people - and I include myself - grew up in families with poorly thought out values and principles. Clinically, I have noticed that this is consistent regardless of religion, culture or race.
For more on this, see Dr. Murray Bowen's ideas on Differentiation of Self
<<Geez! You learn this stuff since you're old enough to communicate>>
Consider yourself fortunate. Many people - and I include myself - grew up in families with poorly thought out values and principles. Clinically, I have noticed that this is consistent regardless of religion, culture or race.
For more on this, see Dr. Murray Bowen's ideas on Differentiation of Self
May 22, 2013 at 1:43 |
avrum
avrum
I agree with Avrum -- it does help to tease out what one's values are and to think consciously about them. Not all the time, but occasionally.
I grew up in a family with Southern Baptist values and morals, which I resisted even at a very young age. But I didn't know *why* -- I didn't have the vocabulary or concepts to dispute them. So I went along with them because that's all I had.
I had no alternatives to explore for many many years, and entered young adulthood as pretty naive. I was living accd to my family's and peer group's goals and values -- instead of values that were more resonant with my temperament and personality -- and it caused me much pain for many years.
The last time I worked with a coach (winter of 2012), I had to do a values clarification diagram as part of the intake form. It was quite illuminating to me, even at my great age, to consider other values that I could choose to have.
So I don't think this discussion is a waste of time at all. That it comes up so often on the forum may be an indicator that this is an area where the tools and techniques at our disposal don't adequately meet deeper human needs.
I grew up in a family with Southern Baptist values and morals, which I resisted even at a very young age. But I didn't know *why* -- I didn't have the vocabulary or concepts to dispute them. So I went along with them because that's all I had.
I had no alternatives to explore for many many years, and entered young adulthood as pretty naive. I was living accd to my family's and peer group's goals and values -- instead of values that were more resonant with my temperament and personality -- and it caused me much pain for many years.
The last time I worked with a coach (winter of 2012), I had to do a values clarification diagram as part of the intake form. It was quite illuminating to me, even at my great age, to consider other values that I could choose to have.
So I don't think this discussion is a waste of time at all. That it comes up so often on the forum may be an indicator that this is an area where the tools and techniques at our disposal don't adequately meet deeper human needs.
May 22, 2013 at 17:00 |
Mike Brown
Mike Brown
And as I've said many times before, this forum is not intended to be an instruction manual which you have to search through to get a definitive answer, but somewhere people can come and ask questions and get answers in the present.
May 22, 2013 at 20:35 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Here here. I'm in my first stages of practicing a mindfulness meditation each day. One thing that takes humility and perspective to admit is just how many emotive associations we can embody without even knowing their origin, whether we consciously recruited them or willfully subscribed to them. So, no, I do not associate something as a value of mine simply because I felt it or thought it. Nor would I throw my hands up and proclaim, "Mindful exercise? Are you kidding me? I have a mind, so anything I'm feeling or thinking is me being mindful, duh. People have been doing this for, like, ever." To me comes across as pretentious, and do pretentiousness or mockery sound like values that you and I are intentionally aiming for?
May 30, 2013 at 15:20 |
James
James
Hi James
I had no intention of being pretentious. I am guilty of mockery and I apologize. I was simply frustrated going round this same loop by the same few. Again, I apologize for that. Even though a person can't precisely articulate their values, they do feel the emotional component of them. When I feel guilt when I'm working, that's my cue to reevaluate. Either I'm forgetting something or I'm pandering to my desire to avoid boring work or being afraid to start something. Even though it's a "negative" emotion, it works to get you to stop and think and have a do over.
Michael stated "The goal of productivity can conflict with the value of being peaceful and pleasant to colleagues, having less stress, devoting time to my partner.
Maybe values need more attention instead of all the achieve achieve hype."
I still don't understand how being productive would cause anybody to forget their sense of common decency toward others or forget their more basic values. I think most people are decent. I don't think being ambitious is going to blind most people away from being decent. Not being able to articulate your values doesn't mean you aren't feeling them. I honestly don't understand the original premise that productivity causes people to abandon their values. I maintain that acting on your values is done automatically no matter what you do even if you're choosing to ignore them for some reason.
If I sounded pretentious, I apologize. I honestly didn't intend that.
I also recognize that my mockery was unkind. I was willfully guilty of that. I apologize for that also.
Expect typos because it was embarrassing to write this....the mockery part.
I had no intention of being pretentious. I am guilty of mockery and I apologize. I was simply frustrated going round this same loop by the same few. Again, I apologize for that. Even though a person can't precisely articulate their values, they do feel the emotional component of them. When I feel guilt when I'm working, that's my cue to reevaluate. Either I'm forgetting something or I'm pandering to my desire to avoid boring work or being afraid to start something. Even though it's a "negative" emotion, it works to get you to stop and think and have a do over.
Michael stated "The goal of productivity can conflict with the value of being peaceful and pleasant to colleagues, having less stress, devoting time to my partner.
Maybe values need more attention instead of all the achieve achieve hype."
I still don't understand how being productive would cause anybody to forget their sense of common decency toward others or forget their more basic values. I think most people are decent. I don't think being ambitious is going to blind most people away from being decent. Not being able to articulate your values doesn't mean you aren't feeling them. I honestly don't understand the original premise that productivity causes people to abandon their values. I maintain that acting on your values is done automatically no matter what you do even if you're choosing to ignore them for some reason.
If I sounded pretentious, I apologize. I honestly didn't intend that.
I also recognize that my mockery was unkind. I was willfully guilty of that. I apologize for that also.
Expect typos because it was embarrassing to write this....the mockery part.
June 2, 2013 at 9:55 |
learning as I go
learning as I go
Maybe values need more attention instead of all the achieve achieve hype.
More at http://workingwithact.com/2012/10/29/if-you-cant-have-it-all-what-can-you-have/