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Chris:
One question:
How long you have been successfully working with your method?
In your posts you say that in the past you have used "dozens and dozens" of different systems. Have you now been using your current method long enough to be sure it won't just repeat the pattern?
My concern, as I've said, is that your method is in fact just another rule-based system and that it's fate will in the end be the same as all the other systems you've tried.
I hope I'm wrong.
One question:
How long you have been successfully working with your method?
In your posts you say that in the past you have used "dozens and dozens" of different systems. Have you now been using your current method long enough to be sure it won't just repeat the pattern?
My concern, as I've said, is that your method is in fact just another rule-based system and that it's fate will in the end be the same as all the other systems you've tried.
I hope I'm wrong.
June 7, 2013 at 9:16 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Hi Mark,
Mark: "http://markforster.squarespace.com/forum/post/2133033#post2133795 in which you tell me that my efforts to improve my systems are a waste of time as everyone will find ways of gaming the system."
But I didn't did I? Please read what I wrote and not what you think I wrote. The efforts to become more productive are worthwhile as we learn things along the way Over time one applies the principles in the best way, and for me that is not a system which uses task-processing rules to force tasks, which I think fail like many self-imposed structures which use rules to drive behavioural changes (I gave some other examples a few posts back).
Mark: "http://markforster.squarespace.com/forum/post/2133033#post2134417 in which you say that rule-based systems are the problem, not the solution, but that you have found the solution."
I found the solution for me and am articulating why I think that.
Mark: "You don't admit that you might actually have learned something from the rule-based systems until this current thread."
Having read that you still appear to have ignored it in subsequent replies.
Mark: "How long you have been successfully working with your method?"
Around two years. Back then I was trying out applications such as Treepad, TabPad and the like, and using multiple data files to manage different areas. So same approach but using more files which were application specific. Over time it's simplified into a single txt file with no fancy software. The impetus to do a task is not driven by a rule which says I "must" but by being true to whether I need to get it done or not and knowing that only I can make that happen.
I've also continued playing with GTD, AF and various systems like Lifehacker's todo.txt in that time until more recently, as I'm drawn to the algorithmic approach and deep down wanted them to work, but they never did for too long before going wrong. Dave Allen even desribes this formally as "falling off the GTD wagon".
Mark: "http://markforster.squarespace.com/forum/post/2133033#post2133795 in which you tell me that my efforts to improve my systems are a waste of time as everyone will find ways of gaming the system."
But I didn't did I? Please read what I wrote and not what you think I wrote. The efforts to become more productive are worthwhile as we learn things along the way Over time one applies the principles in the best way, and for me that is not a system which uses task-processing rules to force tasks, which I think fail like many self-imposed structures which use rules to drive behavioural changes (I gave some other examples a few posts back).
Mark: "http://markforster.squarespace.com/forum/post/2133033#post2134417 in which you say that rule-based systems are the problem, not the solution, but that you have found the solution."
I found the solution for me and am articulating why I think that.
Mark: "You don't admit that you might actually have learned something from the rule-based systems until this current thread."
Having read that you still appear to have ignored it in subsequent replies.
Mark: "How long you have been successfully working with your method?"
Around two years. Back then I was trying out applications such as Treepad, TabPad and the like, and using multiple data files to manage different areas. So same approach but using more files which were application specific. Over time it's simplified into a single txt file with no fancy software. The impetus to do a task is not driven by a rule which says I "must" but by being true to whether I need to get it done or not and knowing that only I can make that happen.
I've also continued playing with GTD, AF and various systems like Lifehacker's todo.txt in that time until more recently, as I'm drawn to the algorithmic approach and deep down wanted them to work, but they never did for too long before going wrong. Dave Allen even desribes this formally as "falling off the GTD wagon".
June 7, 2013 at 13:10 |
Chris
Chris
learning, thankyou for your kind feedback, it's very welcome!
June 7, 2013 at 13:29 |
Chris
Chris
Chris:
If you'd phrased your original posts in the way you've phrased this last one then there wouldn't have been any problem. And the information about how long you've been using your method would I suggest have been useful as part of the original information you gave.
And if you are interested in feedback please note that I wasn't the only one who considered your opening posts insulting or found your dogmatic attitude difficult.
If you'd phrased your original posts in the way you've phrased this last one then there wouldn't have been any problem. And the information about how long you've been using your method would I suggest have been useful as part of the original information you gave.
And if you are interested in feedback please note that I wasn't the only one who considered your opening posts insulting or found your dogmatic attitude difficult.
June 7, 2013 at 15:01 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Mark: "If you'd phrased your original posts in the way you've phrased this last one then there wouldn't have been any problem."
The implication is that I am responsible for your cursory reading of my posts and your subsequent descent into personal abuse. We will have to agree to disagree.
Mark: "And the information about how long you've been using your method would I suggest have been useful as part of the original information you gave."
That's a fair point, it would have helped to present how it's stood the test of time and provided a foundation for my ealier posts.
The implication is that I am responsible for your cursory reading of my posts and your subsequent descent into personal abuse. We will have to agree to disagree.
Mark: "And the information about how long you've been using your method would I suggest have been useful as part of the original information you gave."
That's a fair point, it would have helped to present how it's stood the test of time and provided a foundation for my ealier posts.
June 7, 2013 at 15:30 |
Chris
Chris
Chris -
Somehow, you went from "Hey I can do something that works for me" to "Hey, I'm going to head over to Forster's site, tell everyone they're a tad backwards, and show them the light. And if they misinterpret my good intentions, I'll remind them to carefully re-read what I wrote". To put it mildly, I find it off-putting and condescending.
Ok, done here.
Somehow, you went from "Hey I can do something that works for me" to "Hey, I'm going to head over to Forster's site, tell everyone they're a tad backwards, and show them the light. And if they misinterpret my good intentions, I'll remind them to carefully re-read what I wrote". To put it mildly, I find it off-putting and condescending.
Ok, done here.
June 7, 2013 at 15:33 |
avrum
avrum
Hi avrum, you're not shy of telling people what's good for them yourself on occasion, but it seems we're all on the same page now which is good.
June 7, 2013 at 15:51 |
Chris
Chris
Chris:
<<The implication is that I am responsible for your cursory reading of my posts >>
I've reread your posts several times very carefully and still feel exactly the same about them as I did at first reading. In any case I don't reply to posts without reading them carefully in the first place, so I suggest you stop blaming the reader for what you have written.
<<The implication is that I am responsible for your cursory reading of my posts >>
I've reread your posts several times very carefully and still feel exactly the same about them as I did at first reading. In any case I don't reply to posts without reading them carefully in the first place, so I suggest you stop blaming the reader for what you have written.
June 7, 2013 at 17:02 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
lol at the derailment of this original post. Look at the last few posts and compare it to the first few posts. Lets not play broken telephone of every thread.
June 7, 2013 at 19:52 |
GMBW
GMBW
jumping into the fray. i think what might be going on is Chris has so internalized "rules" that they are no longer rules to him. where to others, they are still a set of rules.
consider cleaning up a kitchen. for someone with horrible cleaning habits/knowledge, they might benefit from a set of rules: (made up for example, please don't consider this info on how to clean kitchen)
1. put away the big things
2. then the small things
3. and finally clean all surfaces. start high, work low.
they'd need to tightly stick to the rules, or easily fall back on their old ways. they might often read books and visit sites on more tips.
4. clean as soon as done with meal
5. never go to bed with messy kitchen
however, eventually these rules and tips might be so internalized AND the overall feeling that is good to clean the kitchen, to want to - that it might finally just come down to deciding to do it. the how would be by then perfected.
we have rules and tips as to how to get things done. systems.
the way that Chris gets things done with the flat list still has a set of steps and internal choice making.
if anything, Chris, what is the essential tip that you would instruct to someone else so that they do not keep using rules as a crutch? if you were to get me over to where you are, what insight would you convey to me? would that not be a rule or tip?
consider cleaning up a kitchen. for someone with horrible cleaning habits/knowledge, they might benefit from a set of rules: (made up for example, please don't consider this info on how to clean kitchen)
1. put away the big things
2. then the small things
3. and finally clean all surfaces. start high, work low.
they'd need to tightly stick to the rules, or easily fall back on their old ways. they might often read books and visit sites on more tips.
4. clean as soon as done with meal
5. never go to bed with messy kitchen
however, eventually these rules and tips might be so internalized AND the overall feeling that is good to clean the kitchen, to want to - that it might finally just come down to deciding to do it. the how would be by then perfected.
we have rules and tips as to how to get things done. systems.
the way that Chris gets things done with the flat list still has a set of steps and internal choice making.
if anything, Chris, what is the essential tip that you would instruct to someone else so that they do not keep using rules as a crutch? if you were to get me over to where you are, what insight would you convey to me? would that not be a rule or tip?
June 21, 2013 at 0:03 |
matthewS
matthewS
Hi matthewS, I think there are three kinds of rules going on:
1. The principles in use - examples being the GTD 2 minute rule or being sure to clearly define a next action for complex projects, simplifying methods where possible and so on. These are the things I have taken from years of using various systems and they're definitely internalised.
2. The approach used to tackle a particular thing - this might be your kitchen example, and many of the projects at work can start to be carved up into sub-projects to better tackle them. In many cases the things that need to be done are simple or self-evident and this applies less.
3. The approach used to actually do the work identified above plus other work that you know needs to be done. This is where you can use a rules based system such as FV which lets you select tasks but which also puts tasks before you based on an algorithm, eg the root task in FV or the Old List in TUTMS. This is the approach that I've dropped in favour of knowing what I need to do and doing it, and using a text file to remind me of stuff further out, on a set date or that I'm waiting for from someone else.
So 1 and 2 are really key, 3 is useful but I kind of evolved out of it the more I simplified.
1. The principles in use - examples being the GTD 2 minute rule or being sure to clearly define a next action for complex projects, simplifying methods where possible and so on. These are the things I have taken from years of using various systems and they're definitely internalised.
2. The approach used to tackle a particular thing - this might be your kitchen example, and many of the projects at work can start to be carved up into sub-projects to better tackle them. In many cases the things that need to be done are simple or self-evident and this applies less.
3. The approach used to actually do the work identified above plus other work that you know needs to be done. This is where you can use a rules based system such as FV which lets you select tasks but which also puts tasks before you based on an algorithm, eg the root task in FV or the Old List in TUTMS. This is the approach that I've dropped in favour of knowing what I need to do and doing it, and using a text file to remind me of stuff further out, on a set date or that I'm waiting for from someone else.
So 1 and 2 are really key, 3 is useful but I kind of evolved out of it the more I simplified.
June 21, 2013 at 13:18 |
Chris
Chris
silviastraka:
<< it might be useful to have a thread on *how* we talk in this forum about ideas in a way that is safe and respectful for everyone. >>
Anyone can start a thread, so if you think it would be a good idea to have a thread on this subject you are welcome to go ahead and start one.
<< it might be useful to have a thread on *how* we talk in this forum about ideas in a way that is safe and respectful for everyone. >>
Anyone can start a thread, so if you think it would be a good idea to have a thread on this subject you are welcome to go ahead and start one.
June 22, 2013 at 15:09 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
I'm going to close this thread now as it's getting too long to be manageable. Anyone is welcome to start a new thread to continue the discussion.
June 22, 2013 at 17:06 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
<< Where did I say that everyone else has got it wrong and I am the only person who got it right? Can you link to the post please? >>
http://markforster.squarespace.com/forum/post/2133033#post2133795 in which you tell me that my efforts to improve my systems are a waste of time as everyone will find ways of gaming the system.
http://markforster.squarespace.com/forum/post/2133033#post2134417 in which you say that rule-based systems are the problem, not the solution, but that you have found the solution.
You don't admit that you might actually have learned something from the rule-based systems until this current thread.