Discussion Forum > If Your Closed List Grows, Was It Really Closed?
I read the post three times, and the question that kept recurring was: why does it matter?
If I was working this list DIT-style, and realized "clean closet" is bigger than I expected, I'd probably start breaking down the "clean closet" task into smaller sub-tasks, enter them all on tomorrow's page, maybe work on one or two of them now if I feel I have time, and then cross off "clean closet" from today's list. That way, today's list is still a closed list, with all the psychological benefits.
But maybe you have another reason for listing these things on a closed list.
If I was working this list DIT-style, and realized "clean closet" is bigger than I expected, I'd probably start breaking down the "clean closet" task into smaller sub-tasks, enter them all on tomorrow's page, maybe work on one or two of them now if I feel I have time, and then cross off "clean closet" from today's list. That way, today's list is still a closed list, with all the psychological benefits.
But maybe you have another reason for listing these things on a closed list.
July 10, 2014 at 16:20 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Practically? It doesn't really matter. I was thinking of closed list as a multi-session project, similar to a backlog, rather than a closed list for the day. As a multi-session project, I'd consider that box part of the same closed list, and change my expectation of when the list will be finished (or do more work per day on it). If it were a closed list for the day, DIT-style, yeah, I'd do what I could without messing up other commitments, add it to next day, and call the line done.
The question came up when I tried to explain the benefit of a closed list and used, "Every time you touch it, it gets smaller." And, of course, came up with an exception. So I wondered if "getting smaller" is part of the definition, or just a very common feature.
Dividing the project into smaller sub-tasks up front brings up another field I dipped into: Agile Programming. (The For Dummies book was on the New shelf at the library.) I should write up how it applies to time management. A key part is leaving the specification to the last responsible moment. It makes no sense to specify exactly which faucets go in the en-suite before you reach that part of the project. Another part of the project might need more money, leaving less for decorating, or they might enlarge the bedroom leaving room for only a small shower. Last responsible moment might be fairly soon, if the part has a long lead time. Or it might be you and the designer at Home Depot at daybreak the while the plumber's unpacking his truck.
The question came up when I tried to explain the benefit of a closed list and used, "Every time you touch it, it gets smaller." And, of course, came up with an exception. So I wondered if "getting smaller" is part of the definition, or just a very common feature.
Dividing the project into smaller sub-tasks up front brings up another field I dipped into: Agile Programming. (The For Dummies book was on the New shelf at the library.) I should write up how it applies to time management. A key part is leaving the specification to the last responsible moment. It makes no sense to specify exactly which faucets go in the en-suite before you reach that part of the project. Another part of the project might need more money, leaving less for decorating, or they might enlarge the bedroom leaving room for only a small shower. Last responsible moment might be fairly soon, if the part has a long lead time. Or it might be you and the designer at Home Depot at daybreak the while the plumber's unpacking his truck.
July 10, 2014 at 21:41 |
Cricket
Cricket
In most of Mark's systems involving closed lists, an item remains on a closed list only until some work has been done on it, and then when one moves onto something else, the item is re-written in some fashion on an open list. One (rare) exception to this is UTMS (and UTMSI), where one must be clear about what constitutes "finished," and then an item is left on the same closed list until finished. Even so, it's still a closed list if you aren't adding items to it the list itself.
July 10, 2014 at 23:58 |
Austin
Austin
Most, not all. In DIT, Chapter 2, under Fifth Principle, p28, Mark describes the backlog as a closed list. Things on it don't get mixed in with incoming items. I just assumed they'd stay on the closed backlog list if you didn't finish them. That method works really well for me for backlogs. They're usually of small, annoying things, so there's less temptation to split them, and much incentive to earn the right to mark it done. Larger things get either hibernated or activated.
Now you've got me wondering whether that's what he intended.
Most of his systems, though, do have you move a touched item out of the closed list and onto an open one. DIT's "today" and "tomorrow" lists.
Now you've got me wondering whether that's what he intended.
Most of his systems, though, do have you move a touched item out of the closed list and onto an open one. DIT's "today" and "tomorrow" lists.
July 11, 2014 at 1:35 |
Cricket
Cricket
<< I just assumed they'd stay on the closed backlog list if you didn't finish them.>>
Whether that is what Mark intended, I can't say for sure, but I've never done DIT that way. When I do *any* work on a backlog item, the next step (or sometimes "Work on Project X" or whatever) gets written on tomorrow's list as now being "incoming work," and the item gets crossed out of the backlog completely. Whenever you work on something in DIT, the next part of it becomes "new," and therefore defaults to tomorrow. Thus, "buy home" might be on my backlog, but it certainly would not stay there until I had actually finished it. It would stay there until I "activated it" by doing some work on it, and then it would become an active thread in my task diary until it gets backlogged again.
Whether that is what Mark intended, I can't say for sure, but I've never done DIT that way. When I do *any* work on a backlog item, the next step (or sometimes "Work on Project X" or whatever) gets written on tomorrow's list as now being "incoming work," and the item gets crossed out of the backlog completely. Whenever you work on something in DIT, the next part of it becomes "new," and therefore defaults to tomorrow. Thus, "buy home" might be on my backlog, but it certainly would not stay there until I had actually finished it. It would stay there until I "activated it" by doing some work on it, and then it would become an active thread in my task diary until it gets backlogged again.
July 11, 2014 at 3:44 |
Austin
Austin
Cricket:
So you wrote "Clean the closet thoroughly" in your closed list, and considered that the list got larger because in the process, you realized that it would take more time than expected.
This means that you closed your list with the implied thought that you could finish everything on your closed list in a given timeframe. Suddenly, time needed grows with regards to your forecasted time-to-completion.
Well, your list is closed, because you don't add anything to it, so it can only get smaller. But the way you worded your item makes YOUR ITEM open to extra time needed, and this is a bad thing if you closed your list, determined to bring all the tasks in it to completion within a fixed timeframe. Had you written "Spend one hour cleaning the closet" or "Clean the closet a little bit" instead would have made the item closed, and made the list a bit more completable in your fixed timeframe.
So you wrote "Clean the closet thoroughly" in your closed list, and considered that the list got larger because in the process, you realized that it would take more time than expected.
This means that you closed your list with the implied thought that you could finish everything on your closed list in a given timeframe. Suddenly, time needed grows with regards to your forecasted time-to-completion.
Well, your list is closed, because you don't add anything to it, so it can only get smaller. But the way you worded your item makes YOUR ITEM open to extra time needed, and this is a bad thing if you closed your list, determined to bring all the tasks in it to completion within a fixed timeframe. Had you written "Spend one hour cleaning the closet" or "Clean the closet a little bit" instead would have made the item closed, and made the list a bit more completable in your fixed timeframe.
July 11, 2014 at 16:04 |
Laurent
Laurent
There are several different points raised in this thread.
The first is "Can a closed list get longer?" The answer to this question is that the list can't get longer, but your estimate of how long it will take to get through the list most definitely can !
Breaking the items on a closed list down into smaller parts does not make the list longer (except in terms of how many lines it takes up on the page) because the component parts will take the same time to do as the whole. The fact that breaking it down further may cause you to revise your estimate of how long it will take, just means that you got your first estimate wrong - not that the list has become longer.
If we are talking in a Do It Tomorrow context then the aim is always to get through the whole list in one day. That means finishing the tasks, not doing a bit of work on them and then carrying them forward. That doesn't mean with a big project doing the whole project, it means bringing yourself up to schedule so that you can deliver the project by the due date. With something like email it means clearing your inbox to zero at least once in the day.
In a backlog-clearing context the aim is simply to keep working on the closed list. Usually with a backlog any estimate of how long it will take is going to be wildly wrong anyway (if you'd estimated it correctly in the first place, you wouldn't have a backlog), so it's always going to be a case of your estimate of how long it will take will be too small but the actual amount of work in the backlog can only get smaller.
The first is "Can a closed list get longer?" The answer to this question is that the list can't get longer, but your estimate of how long it will take to get through the list most definitely can !
Breaking the items on a closed list down into smaller parts does not make the list longer (except in terms of how many lines it takes up on the page) because the component parts will take the same time to do as the whole. The fact that breaking it down further may cause you to revise your estimate of how long it will take, just means that you got your first estimate wrong - not that the list has become longer.
If we are talking in a Do It Tomorrow context then the aim is always to get through the whole list in one day. That means finishing the tasks, not doing a bit of work on them and then carrying them forward. That doesn't mean with a big project doing the whole project, it means bringing yourself up to schedule so that you can deliver the project by the due date. With something like email it means clearing your inbox to zero at least once in the day.
In a backlog-clearing context the aim is simply to keep working on the closed list. Usually with a backlog any estimate of how long it will take is going to be wildly wrong anyway (if you'd estimated it correctly in the first place, you wouldn't have a backlog), so it's always going to be a case of your estimate of how long it will take will be too small but the actual amount of work in the backlog can only get smaller.
July 12, 2014 at 13:33 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Thanks for clarifying.
July 14, 2014 at 1:54 |
Cricket
Cricket
The first attempt was "You don't add anything to it. Every action you take on the list makes it smaller."
However, I've had closed lists that grow. A single line suddenly expands to take way more time than I expected. "Clean the closet thoroughly" gets a lot larger if you open a box and realize you didn't put in the mothballs. That's not the same as one day deciding "Since I'm already dealing with clothes, I'll also do the dresser."
By one definition, it's still closed. I didn't add anything, just realized that dealing with that box will take longer than expected.
In practice, though, a closed list is one that can only get smaller. Every time you work on it, the light at the end of the tunnel gets closer.
I suspect it was and would still be a closed list, even though it would be larger than before.
Thoughts?