Discussion Forum > Question on dates for goal setting
I used to think that these cadences were arbitrary and therefore without value. Instead, I wanted a way to look forward from TODAY and say, what is my goal for the next 7 days, the next 30 days, the next year, all from TODAY.
But I never got my approach to work, and I've come to find a lot of value in the fixed-cadence approach (even if the cadences are arbitrary).
By choosing an arbitrary cadence -- say, monthly -- this gives you the ability to choose a CLOSED LIST of goals for that month. You can then focus exclusively on those goals without worrying about whether they are the perfect goals or not. The main thing is to get them DONE. Along the way you will learn a lot -- even if (or ESPECIALLY if) they are the wrong goals. And so the next month's goals will be more attuned to reality, more attuned to what you really want to do, more attuned to how much you can realistically accomplish, etc.
And if they are the wrong goals, well, you've lost a month, and learned a lot, and can reset for the next month. The main point is, you can commit for a month to almost anything. It's only a month.
(If "month" really doesn't work for you, then choose something else.)
This is the foundation of the Agile Scrum methodology. It's great for establishing clear measurable goals, for measuring completion and success, and for quick feedback on whether you are pursuing the right goals.
Also, the arbitrary cadence forces you to make some decisions -- for example, to give the appropriate size to your goals. This makes you think really hard, and more realistically, about what it will really take to accomplish your goals. I see it as having some constraints that actually help your creativity. It's hard to be creative when there are no constraints and everything is open-ended.
This method can also work when you combine shorter timeframes (say, weeks or months) with longer (quarters or years). You can establish a "vision" for your larger accomplishment that you want to see done in 6 months or a year or whatever. And then you can break it down into a rough series of monthly objectives. You only need to get really specific about the immediate coming month -- the rest can be sketchy -- as long as your path to the end vision is more-or-less coherent. "Scaled" Agile Scrum works this way -- targeting Initiatives or Features at the yearly or quarterly scale, then identifying User Stories (specific pieces of work to be completed, which together lead to the completion of the Feature or Initiative) to be completed in the shorter "sprints" of 2-4 weeks, depending on the cadence that your team has agreed to use.
But I never got my approach to work, and I've come to find a lot of value in the fixed-cadence approach (even if the cadences are arbitrary).
By choosing an arbitrary cadence -- say, monthly -- this gives you the ability to choose a CLOSED LIST of goals for that month. You can then focus exclusively on those goals without worrying about whether they are the perfect goals or not. The main thing is to get them DONE. Along the way you will learn a lot -- even if (or ESPECIALLY if) they are the wrong goals. And so the next month's goals will be more attuned to reality, more attuned to what you really want to do, more attuned to how much you can realistically accomplish, etc.
And if they are the wrong goals, well, you've lost a month, and learned a lot, and can reset for the next month. The main point is, you can commit for a month to almost anything. It's only a month.
(If "month" really doesn't work for you, then choose something else.)
This is the foundation of the Agile Scrum methodology. It's great for establishing clear measurable goals, for measuring completion and success, and for quick feedback on whether you are pursuing the right goals.
Also, the arbitrary cadence forces you to make some decisions -- for example, to give the appropriate size to your goals. This makes you think really hard, and more realistically, about what it will really take to accomplish your goals. I see it as having some constraints that actually help your creativity. It's hard to be creative when there are no constraints and everything is open-ended.
This method can also work when you combine shorter timeframes (say, weeks or months) with longer (quarters or years). You can establish a "vision" for your larger accomplishment that you want to see done in 6 months or a year or whatever. And then you can break it down into a rough series of monthly objectives. You only need to get really specific about the immediate coming month -- the rest can be sketchy -- as long as your path to the end vision is more-or-less coherent. "Scaled" Agile Scrum works this way -- targeting Initiatives or Features at the yearly or quarterly scale, then identifying User Stories (specific pieces of work to be completed, which together lead to the completion of the Feature or Initiative) to be completed in the shorter "sprints" of 2-4 weeks, depending on the cadence that your team has agreed to use.
December 21, 2015 at 3:24 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
I also have sought "rolling goals". They seemed to make more sense in theory. Instead of sort of arbitrary full week and then less and less days, then full 7 again. Never could figure out how to build a system to even play with it. And really, might be just all lost in theory. After all a DAY is a real TIME chunk, not something just made up by society. So if start with DAY, then WEEK, then MONTH, should be OK. And as said above, is how Agile Scrum works.
However, if anyone has figured out "rolling goals", how to do it, if has value: be great to read about.
However, if anyone has figured out "rolling goals", how to do it, if has value: be great to read about.
December 25, 2015 at 22:06 |
matthewS
matthewS
I think there is a fundamental problem with rolling goals: it is possible to avoid closure altogether. They function like an "open list".
Cadence-based goals demand closure, even if closure means "didn't achieve what I expected, need to re-evaluate". It's more like a "closed list" - with all the advantages thereof.
Cadence-based goals demand closure, even if closure means "didn't achieve what I expected, need to re-evaluate". It's more like a "closed list" - with all the advantages thereof.
December 28, 2015 at 15:04 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Seraphim and matthewS, thank you for your feedback. What you wrote was very helpful for me.
Now, after having started this I have follow up questions.
My current situation is this: I haven't reached all my goals for the third week of the year. That means I am behind with my goals for the month.
Now I could set goals for the fourth week that are below the monthly goals so that I at least reach the goals of the forth week. But at the same time I would concede that I haven't reached my monthly goals, which for all practical purposes is clear already.
Do I even have goals for the fourth week AND for the month as a whole simultaneously?
What if I re-set my monthly goals to accommodate to the current reality? That would be cheating, wouldn't it?
I am a bit at a loss on how to handle this. I appreciate any thoughts, ideas or good questions.
Now, after having started this I have follow up questions.
My current situation is this: I haven't reached all my goals for the third week of the year. That means I am behind with my goals for the month.
Now I could set goals for the fourth week that are below the monthly goals so that I at least reach the goals of the forth week. But at the same time I would concede that I haven't reached my monthly goals, which for all practical purposes is clear already.
Do I even have goals for the fourth week AND for the month as a whole simultaneously?
What if I re-set my monthly goals to accommodate to the current reality? That would be cheating, wouldn't it?
I am a bit at a loss on how to handle this. I appreciate any thoughts, ideas or good questions.
January 25, 2016 at 20:41 |
Christopher
Christopher
Hi Christopher,
sorry for being slightly off-topic.
I would like share my experience with goals. Concept of technical/future goals (with deadlines, SMART, as a point in the future) never worked for me. For me, it would be demotivating. First, I am not able to estimate how many and how quickly I can reach such goals. With such an approach, you generally overcommit or undercommit - it depends on personality type, I think. Me personally - I would tend to overcommit - having much more "goals in the future" than would be possible to master. Second, I do not want to live my life with feeling than I have to still chase something. When I have such goal dates cast in calendar stone, I would feel like this. (I can have one or two or several of such goals with deadlines, but I do not want them definitely to be something what should fundamentally control my life and workday)
We are not speaking about project management or setting deadlines for cooperation of many peoples - in such examples, it is of course necessary. But living a life (even working life) is in my opinion something fundamentally different from technically fulfilling some repeating and well-known template. Change and development is something for which you cannot set deadline.
Example: When I build a house as a building company, I will definitely have deadlines, milestones - especially because I am not building my first house, but 50th or 1000th - and I know all phases, all obstacles, all estimates. That is why I can reasonably set SMART goals, terms, deadlines. But when I build my first house (esp. as a personal project), I do not know anything of this, and getting to know this information is part of my project - I do not know how long it will take and what I will need... during such a project. Setting exact deadline or milestones in the beginning would be absurd. I only - during working the project itself (reading literature, speaking with people etc)- uncover how long it will take, what are obstacles, what are possibilities. My goal (and its "deadline") change as I go along such developmental (not routine) project.
And I think it is something what we do in life - we have majority of more developmental (first-case) projects than routine (well-known, 50th repeating) projects. If we have repeating projects, we can set deadlines, when we have developmental projects, we should set priorities, preferences, schedules, habits - and especially - daily/weekly schedule or habits.
Example: There are two types how to define goal "to loose weight": 1) Set a goal as a point in the future (Unreasonably imho - because without information what is appropriate, possible, real) - you set your goal as "loose 8 kg in 60 days". You will not reach it because it is not real (being dissatisfied) or you will reach it and because your goal is only point in the future, not habit change, you will soon gain such 8 kg back. 2) Set a goal as a habit, schedule, change in your daily routines: Having only vegetable as one complete meal. Running 5 days/week. Eat only 3 portions of such and such type of food/week. This is not point in the future, but change in your presence. And such goals from my experience should form majority of our personal or professional developmental goals.
My favourite book with similar thinking: Shapiro: Goal-free living
sorry for being slightly off-topic.
I would like share my experience with goals. Concept of technical/future goals (with deadlines, SMART, as a point in the future) never worked for me. For me, it would be demotivating. First, I am not able to estimate how many and how quickly I can reach such goals. With such an approach, you generally overcommit or undercommit - it depends on personality type, I think. Me personally - I would tend to overcommit - having much more "goals in the future" than would be possible to master. Second, I do not want to live my life with feeling than I have to still chase something. When I have such goal dates cast in calendar stone, I would feel like this. (I can have one or two or several of such goals with deadlines, but I do not want them definitely to be something what should fundamentally control my life and workday)
We are not speaking about project management or setting deadlines for cooperation of many peoples - in such examples, it is of course necessary. But living a life (even working life) is in my opinion something fundamentally different from technically fulfilling some repeating and well-known template. Change and development is something for which you cannot set deadline.
Example: When I build a house as a building company, I will definitely have deadlines, milestones - especially because I am not building my first house, but 50th or 1000th - and I know all phases, all obstacles, all estimates. That is why I can reasonably set SMART goals, terms, deadlines. But when I build my first house (esp. as a personal project), I do not know anything of this, and getting to know this information is part of my project - I do not know how long it will take and what I will need... during such a project. Setting exact deadline or milestones in the beginning would be absurd. I only - during working the project itself (reading literature, speaking with people etc)- uncover how long it will take, what are obstacles, what are possibilities. My goal (and its "deadline") change as I go along such developmental (not routine) project.
And I think it is something what we do in life - we have majority of more developmental (first-case) projects than routine (well-known, 50th repeating) projects. If we have repeating projects, we can set deadlines, when we have developmental projects, we should set priorities, preferences, schedules, habits - and especially - daily/weekly schedule or habits.
Example: There are two types how to define goal "to loose weight": 1) Set a goal as a point in the future (Unreasonably imho - because without information what is appropriate, possible, real) - you set your goal as "loose 8 kg in 60 days". You will not reach it because it is not real (being dissatisfied) or you will reach it and because your goal is only point in the future, not habit change, you will soon gain such 8 kg back. 2) Set a goal as a habit, schedule, change in your daily routines: Having only vegetable as one complete meal. Running 5 days/week. Eat only 3 portions of such and such type of food/week. This is not point in the future, but change in your presence. And such goals from my experience should form majority of our personal or professional developmental goals.
My favourite book with similar thinking: Shapiro: Goal-free living
January 26, 2016 at 14:26 |
Daneb
Daneb
I have to agree with Daneb on this. Self-imposed deadlines in the future never work for me, only external ones do. And yes I found it best to either try to make new habits or set goals for just today, as what we call "current initiatives" here. Live one day at a time and all that.
January 26, 2016 at 15:52 |
nuntym
nuntym
Daneb:
What you are saying is very similar to what I say in "Secrets of Productive People".
What you are saying is very similar to what I say in "Secrets of Productive People".
January 26, 2016 at 20:37 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
nuntym:
<< Self-imposed deadlines in the future never work for me, only external ones do. >>
I've written a chapter on this in "Secrets of Productive People" (Chapter 29 - Don't delegate - not the usual way anyway!)
An extract:
"It is difficult to take deadlines you have given yourself seriously, particularly if you know that they are purely artificial ones. But the technique of getting yourself to keep to your own deadlines is exactly the same as getting other people to keep to deadlines. Once you let a deadline slip your mind will start registering it as unimportant if you don't take immediate corrective action."
<< Self-imposed deadlines in the future never work for me, only external ones do. >>
I've written a chapter on this in "Secrets of Productive People" (Chapter 29 - Don't delegate - not the usual way anyway!)
An extract:
"It is difficult to take deadlines you have given yourself seriously, particularly if you know that they are purely artificial ones. But the technique of getting yourself to keep to your own deadlines is exactly the same as getting other people to keep to deadlines. Once you let a deadline slip your mind will start registering it as unimportant if you don't take immediate corrective action."
January 26, 2016 at 20:45 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
I would say Mark, that you explained perfectly the way to visualize, set, control and apply goals on a day to day basis. It is in secret of productive people. I made a check list about goals which helps me to focus about them when I am in the storm. It is perfectly clear, more concice and efficient that what I red about Covey, GTD, or even most of things about goals.
So : Goals are crucial. Goals are for me the first and the principle of business and personnal life. Without no goals you will go nowhere.
So (I can say it myself ;-)) Christopher read MF secrets of productive people. Then apply it making a check list. Then put it in your diary with dates of control and end date if.
You have to appropriate your goals. Visualize, feeling them in you like your blod. Your brain must know that they are what you want, why and know perfectly by heart why you do it and how. I see mine every day. I never keep from my eyes the short horizon line. When I dont set goals usually it is a desaster. When I set a goal (a crucial one) most of the time I get it even if sometime I am near of it.
My goals are listed and explained in short terms. I am still setting some of them for now (I am late) even I began them last november !
I treat some GOALS as a current initiative, other are just written for remembering.
It's unclear ? Let's take an example of my setting my organisation.
I wrote : (GTD)
GOAL : Set my own organisation
WHY (purpous) : I have many difficulties to find my informations. I lost opprtunities because of my lack of organisation and lack of networking. I spent too much time in proscatrination, looking at the internet and not working efficiently.
MY GOAL I want to make my own system to clear and realise my engagements + succeed in my fundamental goal which is "doing this" this year.
HOW ? (Visualize) am going to create a killer tool on omnifocus and evernote and excel (Visualize) which will help me to do my job until my sofware which is in developpement will be operationnal (See how evernote project goal x) Then on February 16. The system must be operationnal. (It goes directly on my engagement list on excel - dead line is fixed on my diary- control step are fixed according to what I wrote on evernote)
Omnifocus project : create excel file about clients - Next action take model I invented at AXA and improove it. EVERNOTE > create excel file about clients (new project detailed) PLANED on tuesday from 13PM to 14 PM create excel file about clients. End date Tuesday (Diary + excel)
Whith a good check list no difficulties.
Simple isn'it ?
NB/ When I write stuff like this I create a note on evernote. It helps me to brainstorm. I add interesting ideas in them so I brainstorm find solution then adapt my check list which are on evernote.
NB2 It is a transitional system/ I am buiding a realestate software specialized in investment with a developper. But it will be operationnal in 6 month. I will lease it on the web.
So : Goals are crucial. Goals are for me the first and the principle of business and personnal life. Without no goals you will go nowhere.
So (I can say it myself ;-)) Christopher read MF secrets of productive people. Then apply it making a check list. Then put it in your diary with dates of control and end date if.
You have to appropriate your goals. Visualize, feeling them in you like your blod. Your brain must know that they are what you want, why and know perfectly by heart why you do it and how. I see mine every day. I never keep from my eyes the short horizon line. When I dont set goals usually it is a desaster. When I set a goal (a crucial one) most of the time I get it even if sometime I am near of it.
My goals are listed and explained in short terms. I am still setting some of them for now (I am late) even I began them last november !
I treat some GOALS as a current initiative, other are just written for remembering.
It's unclear ? Let's take an example of my setting my organisation.
I wrote : (GTD)
GOAL : Set my own organisation
WHY (purpous) : I have many difficulties to find my informations. I lost opprtunities because of my lack of organisation and lack of networking. I spent too much time in proscatrination, looking at the internet and not working efficiently.
MY GOAL I want to make my own system to clear and realise my engagements + succeed in my fundamental goal which is "doing this" this year.
HOW ? (Visualize) am going to create a killer tool on omnifocus and evernote and excel (Visualize) which will help me to do my job until my sofware which is in developpement will be operationnal (See how evernote project goal x) Then on February 16. The system must be operationnal. (It goes directly on my engagement list on excel - dead line is fixed on my diary- control step are fixed according to what I wrote on evernote)
Omnifocus project : create excel file about clients - Next action take model I invented at AXA and improove it. EVERNOTE > create excel file about clients (new project detailed) PLANED on tuesday from 13PM to 14 PM create excel file about clients. End date Tuesday (Diary + excel)
Whith a good check list no difficulties.
Simple isn'it ?
NB/ When I write stuff like this I create a note on evernote. It helps me to brainstorm. I add interesting ideas in them so I brainstorm find solution then adapt my check list which are on evernote.
NB2 It is a transitional system/ I am buiding a realestate software specialized in investment with a developper. But it will be operationnal in 6 month. I will lease it on the web.
January 30, 2016 at 10:35 |
Jupiter
Jupiter
For purpose of illustration, let's assume we set four such goals due in 30 days.
Now, today is the 19th, so this would set me to a rhythm of "starting" the month on every 19th. To avoid that, I could just set 40 days goals this time around.
This is of course unfulfilling. It also makes one "press" the projects into a scheme that may or may not align well with the specific outcome one is working towards. What if my thing could best be accomplished in 20 or 50 days?
Alternatively I sometimes found "rolling goals" mentioned, but only online, never in those books on goal setting, for some strange reason. On the GTD forum they are mentioned like this:
>>>>>I've been using GTD for a little over a year now (and I work at Mindjet). In my GTD map, I consider my goals 'rolling'. That is, if they change, I do not wait for the calendar year to change them. When new goals arise, I add them. If a 'goal' is no longer a true goal, I remove it. If I complete goals throughout the year, I show them marked completed using the task information. I'll keep these goals in my list to provide myself with the positive reinforcement that I'm making progress on my life journey. <<<<<<
While this is nice in some form, it also nullifies the closed list which you would have, if you would have a static list of goals for this week, month, year etc.
I am a bit confused what the best approach for this could be. Any thoughts?
I also have the question, whether there really would be a difference. After all you could just change the goal according to how and when you set it and thus create the same experience along the way. You would just end up sticking the markers in the yard at different points, but the direction would remain the same, wouldn't it?
What if I always want to maintain four main goals. When the work on one is finished, I create a new one to again have four goals. Alternatively, every month (or whatever time period) I set a new set of four brand new goals. Does this really make a conceptual difference?