Discussion Forum > The KonMari method of Project and Goal Review
Cricket:
If Stever's description of Marie Kondo's method is accurate it sounds much more like the halving method than I'd realized. In both, you divide stuff up into categories and touch and handle everything in each category.
I'm not quite sure about the joy thing though. Joy may well be the appropriate sorting criterion for old clothes, books and music. Or your painting, drawing, exercising and the like projects. But how do you apply it to sorting tax records, cleaning materials, or your address book? Or projects such as doing the laundry, cleaning the house, repairing the guttering? I'm sure there are people who find joy in these activities - it's just that I've never met them!
If Stever's description of Marie Kondo's method is accurate it sounds much more like the halving method than I'd realized. In both, you divide stuff up into categories and touch and handle everything in each category.
I'm not quite sure about the joy thing though. Joy may well be the appropriate sorting criterion for old clothes, books and music. Or your painting, drawing, exercising and the like projects. But how do you apply it to sorting tax records, cleaning materials, or your address book? Or projects such as doing the laundry, cleaning the house, repairing the guttering? I'm sure there are people who find joy in these activities - it's just that I've never met them!
March 13, 2016 at 17:36 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Allow me to be the first person you've met who enjoys doing laundry!
March 13, 2016 at 20:46 |
Jesse
Jesse
I have found Marie's approach incredibly helpful so far. I've sorted through and tidied all our clothes and books. My husband decided to join in. Our amount of clothes and number of books have been reduced very significantly and the process was easy and pleasurable. Following her steps created systems very naturally that have made maintaining them also easy. It has taken several months. We had a lot of books!!
I've found the key has been to follow her order quite religiously. I have been reading and following both her publications. She says In one of them that the earlier steps help with understanding how to find joy with later categories.
I'm now onto papers, and I'm a paper hoarder. I'm finding the process of tidying and sorting these is giving me pleasure. Again new systems of organising these are developing quite naturally. I have tax folders that when I now hold them do, believe it or not, spark joy.
I agree with Cricket that Marie's process creates a natural sense of shifting priorities, and clarity in determining what is relevant in my life now.
I've found the key has been to follow her order quite religiously. I have been reading and following both her publications. She says In one of them that the earlier steps help with understanding how to find joy with later categories.
I'm now onto papers, and I'm a paper hoarder. I'm finding the process of tidying and sorting these is giving me pleasure. Again new systems of organising these are developing quite naturally. I have tax folders that when I now hold them do, believe it or not, spark joy.
I agree with Cricket that Marie's process creates a natural sense of shifting priorities, and clarity in determining what is relevant in my life now.
March 13, 2016 at 22:26 |
Sarah Jane
Sarah Jane
Jesse:
<< Allow me to be the first person you've met who enjoys doing laundry! >>
How about cleaning the house, repairing the guttering and doing your tax return?
<< Allow me to be the first person you've met who enjoys doing laundry! >>
How about cleaning the house, repairing the guttering and doing your tax return?
March 13, 2016 at 23:13 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Sarah Jane:
<< I agree with Cricket that Marie's process creates a natural sense of shifting priorities, and clarity in determining what is relevant in my life now. >>
That's the bit that interests me most. Can you say a bit more about how that comes about?
<< I agree with Cricket that Marie's process creates a natural sense of shifting priorities, and clarity in determining what is relevant in my life now. >>
That's the bit that interests me most. Can you say a bit more about how that comes about?
March 13, 2016 at 23:16 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Marie's process is about tidying rather than cleaning and doing tasks. Getting taxes done, and cleaning the gutters aren't the focus. Sorting and cleaning out one's tax papers & finding the right right place for them in the home are part of the process. Getting the equipment one needs for cleaning out the gutters sorted and organised would also be part of the process.
Something about her tidying process and getting one's possessions organised in her way has the effect of clearing out the dross. Focusing in a very practical way on what creates joy, tends to bring that perspective into considering the whole of one's life.
Something about her tidying process and getting one's possessions organised in her way has the effect of clearing out the dross. Focusing in a very practical way on what creates joy, tends to bring that perspective into considering the whole of one's life.
March 14, 2016 at 1:57 |
Sarah Jane
Sarah Jane
Sarah Jane:
Thanks.
Thanks.
March 14, 2016 at 8:30 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Sarah Jane,
What about things that don't bring you joy, but you have to keep?
What about things that don't bring you joy, but you have to keep?
March 14, 2016 at 13:29 |
Cricket
Cricket
Marie suggests that one of the reasons for tidying things in the order she suggests is that it helps with developing a better understanding of what sparks joy. It may well be the usefulness of an object rather than its aesthetics. I've found that it's by the doing that one discovers how it works.
I couldn't quite believe that after deciding about half our massive book collection did not spark joy, that when I went through all the boxes before taking them to our second hand bookshop, there were none that I actually wanted to take back. And I'm not missing any of them. Every time I think of a book I want to check in some way I'm finding its one I kept. With Marie it would have been fine if I kept them all, as long as they fitted this nebulous, but somehow understandable concept of sparking joy.
I couldn't quite believe that after deciding about half our massive book collection did not spark joy, that when I went through all the boxes before taking them to our second hand bookshop, there were none that I actually wanted to take back. And I'm not missing any of them. Every time I think of a book I want to check in some way I'm finding its one I kept. With Marie it would have been fine if I kept them all, as long as they fitted this nebulous, but somehow understandable concept of sparking joy.
March 15, 2016 at 6:58 |
Sarah Jane
Sarah Jane
Sarah Jane:
Maybe I should read the book. I cleared out hundreds of books last year, and have been spending a small fortune buying loads of them back!
Maybe I should read the book. I cleared out hundreds of books last year, and have been spending a small fortune buying loads of them back!
March 15, 2016 at 11:08 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Sara Jane:
So usefulness _can_ spark joy.
What about a job well done? Or space (or time or energy or emotion) that can now be filled with things that do spark joy? (I always thought a glass half-empty was better than a glass half-full. Just think of all the wonderful things it has room for!)
Or knowing you're prepared (papers tidy so taxes will be easier; pantry ready for all situations (fast meal, make-your-own night, family meal, child wants to cook)? Or knowing your future self will thank you for healthy living?
As for taxes, Dad taught me that paying more tax is a sign that you have more to start with. (He later undid that lesson by teaching me about politics.) Now I'm grateful for all the things our taxes do, things that I don't have to worry about, like paying for my brother's pacemaker or my MIL's knee replacement.
Jesse said she enjoys doing laundry. Mom does and her mother did, too, including ironing. They say (said) the fresh, smooth clothes said Thank you.
We have tons of books in the basement. Joy at the time of acquisition. We only buy books from authors we enjoy reading. Joy when son discovered them and I see him reading something totally out-of-character for him, and then diving for the next book in the series. But now that it's so easy to get out-of-print books, how much shelf space are they really worth? If we had to pay for storage, would we? (Oh, right, we're paying by having storage rather than a finished basement.)
Mark:
Does living in a home that's well-maintained bring you joy? Knowing that it will do its job? Does your current home bring more joy than renting one that someone else maintains? Or a combination of responsibility such as a condo? Does doing the work yourself bring more joy than hiring someone? Or would hiring (and maybe teaching and developing a relationship with) a local teenager be better? Or hiring a professional to just deal with it?
So usefulness _can_ spark joy.
What about a job well done? Or space (or time or energy or emotion) that can now be filled with things that do spark joy? (I always thought a glass half-empty was better than a glass half-full. Just think of all the wonderful things it has room for!)
Or knowing you're prepared (papers tidy so taxes will be easier; pantry ready for all situations (fast meal, make-your-own night, family meal, child wants to cook)? Or knowing your future self will thank you for healthy living?
As for taxes, Dad taught me that paying more tax is a sign that you have more to start with. (He later undid that lesson by teaching me about politics.) Now I'm grateful for all the things our taxes do, things that I don't have to worry about, like paying for my brother's pacemaker or my MIL's knee replacement.
Jesse said she enjoys doing laundry. Mom does and her mother did, too, including ironing. They say (said) the fresh, smooth clothes said Thank you.
We have tons of books in the basement. Joy at the time of acquisition. We only buy books from authors we enjoy reading. Joy when son discovered them and I see him reading something totally out-of-character for him, and then diving for the next book in the series. But now that it's so easy to get out-of-print books, how much shelf space are they really worth? If we had to pay for storage, would we? (Oh, right, we're paying by having storage rather than a finished basement.)
Mark:
Does living in a home that's well-maintained bring you joy? Knowing that it will do its job? Does your current home bring more joy than renting one that someone else maintains? Or a combination of responsibility such as a condo? Does doing the work yourself bring more joy than hiring someone? Or would hiring (and maybe teaching and developing a relationship with) a local teenager be better? Or hiring a professional to just deal with it?
March 15, 2016 at 13:21 |
Cricket
Cricket
Cricket:
I think we're getting a bit off the point here. A consistent theme of mine has been that being on top of your work (whatever it is) energizes you. Which is I would think not much different from what you are saying about joy.
However the question is not whether being on top of things gives you joy or energy or whatever. It's how you get there.
So in answer to your questions:
<< Does living in a home that's well-maintained bring you joy? >>
Yes, I enjoy having a well-maintained house, but I do not enjoy maintaining it. So if it's going to be well-maintained I have to do something I do not enjoy first.
<< Does doing the work yourself bring more joy than hiring someone? >>
I don't enjoy either.
<< Or would hiring (and maybe teaching and developing a relationship with) a local teenager be better? >>
No.
<< Or hiring a professional to just deal with it? >>
That's probably what I'd do with anything other than the simplest job. But I do not enjoy the process of investigating, contacting, supervising and paying for a professional. So, again, I have to do something I don't enjoy before I get to enjoy having a well-maintained house.
I think we're getting a bit off the point here. A consistent theme of mine has been that being on top of your work (whatever it is) energizes you. Which is I would think not much different from what you are saying about joy.
However the question is not whether being on top of things gives you joy or energy or whatever. It's how you get there.
So in answer to your questions:
<< Does living in a home that's well-maintained bring you joy? >>
Yes, I enjoy having a well-maintained house, but I do not enjoy maintaining it. So if it's going to be well-maintained I have to do something I do not enjoy first.
<< Does doing the work yourself bring more joy than hiring someone? >>
I don't enjoy either.
<< Or would hiring (and maybe teaching and developing a relationship with) a local teenager be better? >>
No.
<< Or hiring a professional to just deal with it? >>
That's probably what I'd do with anything other than the simplest job. But I do not enjoy the process of investigating, contacting, supervising and paying for a professional. So, again, I have to do something I don't enjoy before I get to enjoy having a well-maintained house.
March 15, 2016 at 14:12 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
I recently purchased and read Marie's companion book, "Spark Joy." Her first book is about the tidying process, the second book is about putting things away. Even though I'm a left-brain geek, the joy criterion makes a big difference. There's something amazing about a closet where *every* article of clothing is something you look at and feel joy. Ditto for a bookshelf. What story will your bookshelf tell when you look at it, and does that story spark joy?
One of her hints was to arrange the clothes in your drawer by color gradient. On a lark, I decided to do that with the pillows on our bed, too. The effect was mind-blowing. Before: a neatly made bed. After: a beautiful bed that was almost a work of art.
The same goes for folding clothes. Even underwear and socks become fun when they're neat and arranged and look like art, rather than clothes.
As for papers that I need to keep, the papers themselves won't necessarily spark joy, but if they're necessary, I can organize and arrange them such that there's joy in knowing everything is tidy and clean. (I'm still working on that one. I have a LOT of paperwork!)
I think Marie's just a little crazy when it comes to tidying (ok, maybe a LOT crazy), but her system sure seems to produce not just a tidy house, but a joyful house.
Mark, give her book a read. It goes very fast—there's a lot of duplication and room for skimming :-)
One of her hints was to arrange the clothes in your drawer by color gradient. On a lark, I decided to do that with the pillows on our bed, too. The effect was mind-blowing. Before: a neatly made bed. After: a beautiful bed that was almost a work of art.
The same goes for folding clothes. Even underwear and socks become fun when they're neat and arranged and look like art, rather than clothes.
As for papers that I need to keep, the papers themselves won't necessarily spark joy, but if they're necessary, I can organize and arrange them such that there's joy in knowing everything is tidy and clean. (I'm still working on that one. I have a LOT of paperwork!)
I think Marie's just a little crazy when it comes to tidying (ok, maybe a LOT crazy), but her system sure seems to produce not just a tidy house, but a joyful house.
Mark, give her book a read. It goes very fast—there's a lot of duplication and room for skimming :-)
March 22, 2016 at 3:47 |
Stever Robbins
Stever Robbins
Stever:
<< Mark, give her book a read. It goes very fast—there's a lot of duplication and room for skimming >>
OK,.. though what my wife will say if I start to colour grade the pillows on our bed I can't imagine. I'll give it a read after I've finished Proust's Du Côté de chez Swann - which may be a _very_ long time. Now there's a book which really does give me joy and which is impossible to read fast.
<< Mark, give her book a read. It goes very fast—there's a lot of duplication and room for skimming >>
OK,.. though what my wife will say if I start to colour grade the pillows on our bed I can't imagine. I'll give it a read after I've finished Proust's Du Côté de chez Swann - which may be a _very_ long time. Now there's a book which really does give me joy and which is impossible to read fast.
March 22, 2016 at 9:59 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
What about anticipatory joy? I have to call the wrecker's to find a replacement light for the car Not fun, especially as it reminds me of why I need to do it, and the effect on the budget.
I'm looking forward to finding something at a much better price than I'd anticipated. Very high return for 15 minutes of work.
I'm also looking forward to not having the reminder every time I look at the car.
Yeah, both are joy in removing a negative rather than gaining a positive, but it's still better than focusing on how bad I feel about it all.
I'm looking forward to finding something at a much better price than I'd anticipated. Very high return for 15 minutes of work.
I'm also looking forward to not having the reminder every time I look at the car.
Yeah, both are joy in removing a negative rather than gaining a positive, but it's still better than focusing on how bad I feel about it all.
March 23, 2016 at 16:57 |
Cricket
Cricket
Funnily enough I found myself recommending Marie Kondo's book to someone today, even though I haven't yet read it myself or tried out the principles.
March 23, 2016 at 17:04 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
I am rather regretting giving it to my super new son in law (as a gift to my daughter, if you follow me). I'm going to try and borrow it when I return his copy of The Martian.
March 23, 2016 at 17:13 |
Will
Will
stever,
I liked your blog post a lot.
I liked your blog post a lot.
March 23, 2016 at 17:28 |
Will
Will
Will,
Are you referring to my The Get-it-Done Guy's Quick and Dirty Tips to Work Less and Do More post? The podcast just hit episode 400. There’s a lot of good stuff in the archives, though it isn’t always easy to find. (I don’t own the podcast feed or trademark, and am at the mercy of Macmillan when it comes to website usability.)
Are you referring to my The Get-it-Done Guy's Quick and Dirty Tips to Work Less and Do More post? The podcast just hit episode 400. There’s a lot of good stuff in the archives, though it isn’t always easy to find. (I don’t own the podcast feed or trademark, and am at the mercy of Macmillan when it comes to website usability.)
March 24, 2016 at 1:01 |
Stever Robbins
Stever Robbins
Stever,
Yes, the link in Cricket's OP.
I've subscribed to the podcast and liked the couple of episodes I picked up.
Don't sell it short: we can pick it up on Windows mobile as well as just Android and iOS!
;0)
Yes, the link in Cricket's OP.
I've subscribed to the podcast and liked the couple of episodes I picked up.
Don't sell it short: we can pick it up on Windows mobile as well as just Android and iOS!
;0)
March 24, 2016 at 9:36 |
Will
Will
Lately I've realized that some of my projects and goals don't bring me joy. Some of them used to. Some of them were expected to.
It's not total lack of joy. I've been through that. Finding no joy overall, even in things that used to bring it is called Depression.
What I'm seeing now is lack of joy in some projects and goals as they're currently defined. Sometimes it's simply because I'm too busy to put in enough time to make the project worthwhile. Other times it's because the project is harder than I'd thought, or not as satisfying. Other times it's because my interests have changed.
So, my experiment is to thank each project and goal. Really appreciate it, including the joyful anticipation it brought me. Then drop or redefine it.
Ref:
http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/productivity/organization/clean-organize-and-declutter-with-marie-kondos-magic-part-1