Discussion Forum > two ways to scan
Caibre65 and I have been using what he calls "Day-based FAF".
http://markforster.squarespace.com/blog/2017/12/15/addition-to-simple-scanning-rules.html#item21810906
It has cured the same dilemma I had about Simple Scanning's sequential process, since being "trapped" in a day lets me go back to items I just passed without going back to the beginning of the whole list.
http://markforster.squarespace.com/blog/2017/12/15/addition-to-simple-scanning-rules.html#item21810906
It has cured the same dilemma I had about Simple Scanning's sequential process, since being "trapped" in a day lets me go back to items I just passed without going back to the beginning of the whole list.
December 15, 2017 at 19:47 |
nuntym
nuntym
Seraphim:
<< Maybe I am making too much of this... but I'd welcome any insights you have. :-) >>
Something similar happened to me this morning. I just did the two tasks in the right order.
<< Maybe I am making too much of this... but I'd welcome any insights you have. :-) >>
Something similar happened to me this morning. I just did the two tasks in the right order.
December 15, 2017 at 20:25 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
For me, when this occurs, I give myself permission to work on the task in whatever way that gets it done.
In other words, what happens if my stand-out task is "drive to the store and buy groceries" but I still need to "write my shopping list", and I've already scanned past that? No problem. When I'm working on a task, I not only work on that task, but everything that I need to do to get that task done. Consider a task to be the boundaries of what you should be doing.
So in this example, I feel fine writing my shopping list because it will help me to drive to the store and buy groceries. I also feel fine crossing out the earlier task, and even rewriting it if need be; because this all falls under the umbrella of "driving to the store and buying groceries."
In other other words: if I "break" (consider those quotation marks huge and in bold) the rules of the system to get a task done, I don't actually consider the rules rules broken. I have some tasks on my list which introduce new rules and even talk about trying new systems. That's ok!
Does this help/make sense?
In other words, what happens if my stand-out task is "drive to the store and buy groceries" but I still need to "write my shopping list", and I've already scanned past that? No problem. When I'm working on a task, I not only work on that task, but everything that I need to do to get that task done. Consider a task to be the boundaries of what you should be doing.
So in this example, I feel fine writing my shopping list because it will help me to drive to the store and buy groceries. I also feel fine crossing out the earlier task, and even rewriting it if need be; because this all falls under the umbrella of "driving to the store and buying groceries."
In other other words: if I "break" (consider those quotation marks huge and in bold) the rules of the system to get a task done, I don't actually consider the rules rules broken. I have some tasks on my list which introduce new rules and even talk about trying new systems. That's ok!
Does this help/make sense?
December 16, 2017 at 17:27 |
Jesse
Jesse
I concur with Jesse.
December 16, 2017 at 18:27 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
I also do work according to Jesse's Umbrella Rule.
December 16, 2017 at 19:44 |
Christopher
Christopher
My two rules which apply to every system:
1) Time management systems are meant to help you to do your work, not get in the way of your doing it.
2) If it needs doing now, do it now.
1) Time management systems are meant to help you to do your work, not get in the way of your doing it.
2) If it needs doing now, do it now.
December 16, 2017 at 23:13 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
This is an easy one. The list is circular. So I come across task "b," which does not stand out because task "a" needs to be done first. So I keep going. I then come across "a" a bit further down the list which stands out, so I do it. Then I keep cycling through the list (once I get to the end I start at the beginning) until I get back to task "b" which is now ready to be done. If there are some tasks in between "a" and "b" that get done so be it (no pun intended). No rules broken, all tasks get done when they get done.
My advice, just go with your intuition in selecting tasks. Don't worry about assigning a priority or value to a task, just pick one. I see a tendency to keep adding calculations to the system - this just adds lag. Just keep going. Brilliant system by the way.
My advice, just go with your intuition in selecting tasks. Don't worry about assigning a priority or value to a task, just pick one. I see a tendency to keep adding calculations to the system - this just adds lag. Just keep going. Brilliant system by the way.
December 17, 2017 at 1:58 |
Paul MacNeil
Paul MacNeil
Paul MacNeil:
<< My advice, just go with your intuition in selecting tasks. Don't worry about assigning a priority or value to a task, just pick one. I see a tendency to keep adding calculations to the system - this just adds lag.>>
Well said!
<< My advice, just go with your intuition in selecting tasks. Don't worry about assigning a priority or value to a task, just pick one. I see a tendency to keep adding calculations to the system - this just adds lag.>>
Well said!
December 17, 2017 at 10:37 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
I'm an INTP in Meyers-Briggs and it's hard for me to empathize with those that have trouble with the concept of tasks standing out.
I very clearly remember an eye-opening exercise a group of us at work did years ago where the iNtuitives and Sensors got into their respective groups and wrote up directions for the opposite group on how to drive to a location a couple of blocks away. As an iNtuitive I could not believe the detail the Sensors gave us. It was information overload! Why complicate such an easy task?! And the Sensors gave us iNtuitives a big, fat FAIL for our scant, vague, so-called directions.
I gained a new appreciation for the way others' brains work and it changed the way I communicated from then on.
For me tasks pop out, they don't just stand out. I sympathize with those that struggle with this. Good luck to you!
I very clearly remember an eye-opening exercise a group of us at work did years ago where the iNtuitives and Sensors got into their respective groups and wrote up directions for the opposite group on how to drive to a location a couple of blocks away. As an iNtuitive I could not believe the detail the Sensors gave us. It was information overload! Why complicate such an easy task?! And the Sensors gave us iNtuitives a big, fat FAIL for our scant, vague, so-called directions.
I gained a new appreciation for the way others' brains work and it changed the way I communicated from then on.
For me tasks pop out, they don't just stand out. I sympathize with those that struggle with this. Good luck to you!
December 19, 2017 at 18:38 |
Zane
Zane
Zane, interesting you mentioned INTP since I also fall under that category, and I have been thinking about how INTP related to trying to create a system for productivity. I learned that INTPs supposedly take each new piece of information in and think about it to try to make it fit into a complete system that incorporates everything else you know already. For example I was listening to a podcast by Jocko Willink and he talks about creating a single todo list, but prioritizing it and then scheduling what you're going to work on, checking the prioritized list maybe twice a day to make sure you're not missing something important. Then when I'm reading this very thread, I'm thinking about how standing out and prioritizing relate to each other, and the ways that FVP deals with the ability to let you add tasks that you want to do before other tasks. For me, it doesn't seem that being INTP simplifies things at all.
December 19, 2017 at 22:35 |
Don R
Don R
I'm INTJ. So's Dad.
Mom: Wouldn't it be nice if we went to the store? Dad: No.
It was fun learning to give directions. Dad's convinced he prefers NSWE to Left/right, but when he actually has to make a turn, he needs L/R. Mom can read maps, but prefers to hear L/R. "In 200 yards, 2 minutes, turn left, west, onto King, which is a major street. It's just after a church."
I spend forever making a chart of cell phone features. My husband learns about the features that interest him, then starts looking a the lowest price and buys the first that fits.
+++
Looking at your todo list only twice a day? Only if you have good routines in place, and do a few long sessions each day rather than many short ones.
Mixed on single todo list. All in one place rather than scattered on paper flying throughout the house, yes. Then subdivided in some way so I see the things I need to do now, or can see all the steps in one place (and how long it will take to do them).
Mom: Wouldn't it be nice if we went to the store? Dad: No.
It was fun learning to give directions. Dad's convinced he prefers NSWE to Left/right, but when he actually has to make a turn, he needs L/R. Mom can read maps, but prefers to hear L/R. "In 200 yards, 2 minutes, turn left, west, onto King, which is a major street. It's just after a church."
I spend forever making a chart of cell phone features. My husband learns about the features that interest him, then starts looking a the lowest price and buys the first that fits.
+++
Looking at your todo list only twice a day? Only if you have good routines in place, and do a few long sessions each day rather than many short ones.
Mixed on single todo list. All in one place rather than scattered on paper flying throughout the house, yes. Then subdivided in some way so I see the things I need to do now, or can see all the steps in one place (and how long it will take to do them).
December 28, 2017 at 20:22 |
Cricket
Cricket
Cricket:
<< Dad's convinced he prefers NSWE to Left/right, but when he actually has to make a turn, he needs L/R. >>
In the United Kingdom no one would dream of giving directions in NSWE. That's because our roads are not ordered on the grid system but have just grown up over the years any old how.
The Romans were the last people to try to organize our roads. There are many old Roman roads in England which were already nearly a thousand years old when King Harold marched his men the length of the country to repel the Norman invaders in 1066. You can always tell which roads they are because they carry on majestically across hill and dale in a dead straight line. And most of them are still in everyday use.
<< Dad's convinced he prefers NSWE to Left/right, but when he actually has to make a turn, he needs L/R. >>
In the United Kingdom no one would dream of giving directions in NSWE. That's because our roads are not ordered on the grid system but have just grown up over the years any old how.
The Romans were the last people to try to organize our roads. There are many old Roman roads in England which were already nearly a thousand years old when King Harold marched his men the length of the country to repel the Norman invaders in 1066. You can always tell which roads they are because they carry on majestically across hill and dale in a dead straight line. And most of them are still in everyday use.
December 29, 2017 at 8:41 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Atlanta has a ring-perimeter highway. The signposts for entries to these highways (ring or not) always indicate which way they're going in NSEW. I-285N, or I-285S, for instance. But because it is a ring you can get on the highway and head first north, then east, then south, then west without ever exiting the highway or changing direction. And the signage changes to match.
Which leads to knowing that the person you're giving directions to needs to head clockwise on the highway when they reach it, but not being sure if they will be going north or east. You can't just tell them L/R because sometimes the on ramps are simple and sometimes they're cloverleaf type, so unless you know the intersection, you're never sure which side it's on. Makes folks from out of town a smidgen bewildered.
This is can't be an Atlanta-only phenomenon, of course, but I had never encountered the problem anywhere until it happened to me. :D
Which leads to knowing that the person you're giving directions to needs to head clockwise on the highway when they reach it, but not being sure if they will be going north or east. You can't just tell them L/R because sometimes the on ramps are simple and sometimes they're cloverleaf type, so unless you know the intersection, you're never sure which side it's on. Makes folks from out of town a smidgen bewildered.
This is can't be an Atlanta-only phenomenon, of course, but I had never encountered the problem anywhere until it happened to me. :D
December 29, 2017 at 13:58 |
R.M. Koske
R.M. Koske
I remember living in Belgium for a year (I'm from Canada) and constantly losing my sense of direction because many of the roads were curvy, unlike where I grew up where most of the roads were based on a grid system. In Belgium, I would walk, but unless I was paying very close attention, I would change direction without realizing it and end up completely disoriented. Apparently that's the reason people get lost in the woods without a compass, we have a natural tendency to walk in circles. Sounds like my daily life sometimes.
December 29, 2017 at 14:54 |
Paul MacNeil
Paul MacNeil
December 29, 2017 at 15:59 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
R.M. Koske - Phoenix Arizona is like that. There are two "loop" freeways that more-or-less encircle the metropolitan area. But the "more-or-less" factor makes it even more bewildering. Plus the fact that the highways are incomplete in some areas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_State_Route_101
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_State_Route_202
Despite the problems, the two loops have contributed to the tremendous population and commercial growth in the area.Gilbert AZ has topped the list of fastest-growing cities in the United States for several years recently. http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2017/10/02/gilberttempe-within-top-100-fastest-growing-us.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_State_Route_101
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_State_Route_202
Despite the problems, the two loops have contributed to the tremendous population and commercial growth in the area.Gilbert AZ has topped the list of fastest-growing cities in the United States for several years recently. http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2017/10/02/gilberttempe-within-top-100-fastest-growing-us.html
December 29, 2017 at 16:31 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Over hill and dale, Mark? I know the expression, but can't say I've ever seen a dale.
December 30, 2017 at 15:54 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu:
<< can't say I've ever seen a dale >>
You've seen plenty. It's a synonym for "valley".
Here's a small selection of dales in England & Scotland:
Rochdale
Wensleydale
Airedale
Lonsdale
Tynedale (pronounced Tindale)
Weardale
Teesdale
Coquetdale
Tweeddale
Annandale
Nithsdale
Clydesdale
Redesdale (where my family come from)
<< can't say I've ever seen a dale >>
You've seen plenty. It's a synonym for "valley".
Here's a small selection of dales in England & Scotland:
Rochdale
Wensleydale
Airedale
Lonsdale
Tynedale (pronounced Tindale)
Weardale
Teesdale
Coquetdale
Tweeddale
Annandale
Nithsdale
Clydesdale
Redesdale (where my family come from)
December 30, 2017 at 21:29 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Clockwise. Dad would like that, unless he has to turn quickly. Mom would not.
Southern Ontario has evolved a fun mix of landmarks and grids at different scales that have no relationship to each other. Most counties have grids that mostly match the compass, but don't match each other in any way. The province has another grid, plus major roads that go between cities rather than matching the grid. It depends on whether the surveyors or inhabitants got there first.
The city grid is offset 45deg from the compass, just like the little river, and only the major roads follow it. My kids refuse to acknowledge the grid, since it doesn't match the compass.
I used to live on the St. Lawrence River, across from the US. The US is south of Canada, so the river was south of us -- even though it ran at 45deg. In some areas, the river ran N-S, but was still local south.
Interchanges on our main highways list the NSWE direction, then a city or five, whatever the sign makers think will be most useful, including a distant major city. To go to Brockville, I spend 5 hours going to Ottawa, on a road that doesn't actually go to Ottawa. (Just after Kingston, Brockville is added, the distant city becomes Montreal, and another road heads north to Ottawa.)
Southern Ontario has evolved a fun mix of landmarks and grids at different scales that have no relationship to each other. Most counties have grids that mostly match the compass, but don't match each other in any way. The province has another grid, plus major roads that go between cities rather than matching the grid. It depends on whether the surveyors or inhabitants got there first.
The city grid is offset 45deg from the compass, just like the little river, and only the major roads follow it. My kids refuse to acknowledge the grid, since it doesn't match the compass.
I used to live on the St. Lawrence River, across from the US. The US is south of Canada, so the river was south of us -- even though it ran at 45deg. In some areas, the river ran N-S, but was still local south.
Interchanges on our main highways list the NSWE direction, then a city or five, whatever the sign makers think will be most useful, including a distant major city. To go to Brockville, I spend 5 hours going to Ottawa, on a road that doesn't actually go to Ottawa. (Just after Kingston, Brockville is added, the distant city becomes Montreal, and another road heads north to Ottawa.)
December 31, 2017 at 19:44 |
Cricket
Cricket
Cricket:
<< I used to live on the St. Lawrence River, across from the US. The US is south of Canada, so the river was south of us >>
Sounds like the English-Scottish border. Everyone knows that England is south of Scotland, but there are large parts of Scotland which are further south than large parts of England. For instance West Learmouth in England has two Scottish borders due north of it and one due south of it!
<< I used to live on the St. Lawrence River, across from the US. The US is south of Canada, so the river was south of us >>
Sounds like the English-Scottish border. Everyone knows that England is south of Scotland, but there are large parts of Scotland which are further south than large parts of England. For instance West Learmouth in England has two Scottish borders due north of it and one due south of it!
January 1, 2018 at 17:54 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Seraphim - Ouch! State highways in Georgia tend to be quite meandering and sometimes hard to follow because they might turn corners at intersections if the roads don't continue the right direction. (In other words, highway 41 goes North/South, but Cobb Parkway starts curving west, so 41 and Cobb Parkway diverge. Or Houston Lake road stops, but 41 jogs over a block and continues on another road.) Are your rings like that? I can image that would be super-painful.
We find our Perimeter highway equal parts painful and indispensable, so I can see how it could contribute to growth anyway.
Cricket - your signage that lists cities the road isn't going to sounds like our ring perimeter, too. By definition, it doesn't go anywhere but in a circle around Atlanta. But the signage indicates that it goes to Augusta, (or Greenville, or Chattanooga, or Birmingham or Montgomery or Macon depending on where on the ring you are) because that's where the highway that intersects the ring goes.
It's probably common, and does make sense after I think about it a bit, but I was really baffled when I moved to Atlanta about how this road could possible be construed to go those places when I KNEW it didn't go anywhere.
We find our Perimeter highway equal parts painful and indispensable, so I can see how it could contribute to growth anyway.
Cricket - your signage that lists cities the road isn't going to sounds like our ring perimeter, too. By definition, it doesn't go anywhere but in a circle around Atlanta. But the signage indicates that it goes to Augusta, (or Greenville, or Chattanooga, or Birmingham or Montgomery or Macon depending on where on the ring you are) because that's where the highway that intersects the ring goes.
It's probably common, and does make sense after I think about it a bit, but I was really baffled when I moved to Atlanta about how this road could possible be construed to go those places when I KNEW it didn't go anywhere.
January 2, 2018 at 20:51 |
R.M. Koske
R.M. Koske
Add roads that change names. Two cities near us merged, so there's King N, King S, King W, King E, fortunately all one long road. Or roads with similar names. George Drive, George Lane, George Street. Most in the same area, but there's a single George Road somewhere else.
Ottawa used to be 5 cities. When they merged, they had to rename several King, Queen, Main, and Past Prime Minister streets. Then the built the expressway and Rideau Centre Mall -- interrupting several long roads, so you can't just start at #1 George and drive until you get to the right number.
Ottawa used to be 5 cities. When they merged, they had to rename several King, Queen, Main, and Past Prime Minister streets. Then the built the expressway and Rideau Centre Mall -- interrupting several long roads, so you can't just start at #1 George and drive until you get to the right number.
January 3, 2018 at 20:42 |
Cricket
Cricket
http://www.cbc.ca/player/play/2667725066
The Roundabout, written and read by Stuart McLean, starts at 29 minutes. Small towns, amalgamation, and, as stated, a roundabout.
The Roundabout, written and read by Stuart McLean, starts at 29 minutes. Small towns, amalgamation, and, as stated, a roundabout.
January 3, 2018 at 20:46 |
Cricket
Cricket
With later variants of AF, and now with Simple Scanning, you emphasize moving forward through all the tasks sequentially.
I am wondering about the dynamics here, and why you decided that the latter approach works better for you.
For me, I find myself running into a conflict with Simple Scanning. Here is how it usually happens:
- I scan through some tasks.
- I notice Task B, but it does not "stand out" because it's really waiting for Task A to be completed first
- One or two tasks further down the list, I run across Task A, which does stand out. So I work on Task A, and get it done.
- Since I had just seen Task B, and it feels like an easy thing to get done now, my natural inclination is just to get it done now.
- But this creates a sense of conflict, since the rules "don't allow" moving back on the page, etc.
I'm trying to find the best way to resolve that feeling of conflict.
Cycling through the page till nothing stands out seems to be a way to resolve this. Of course, this doesn't cover the case where Task B appears at the end of one page, and Task A appears near the top of the next page. But there's something about turning the page that "erases" the first page's tasks from my mind, and allows me to focus attention on the new page. Maybe that's why I don't remember running into this edge case before. It usually seems to happen when the two tasks are on the same page, but they appear out of sequence for some reason.
There are all kinds of workarounds -- many ways to "allow" myself to work on Task B right now. I could pretend I am cycling forward through all the tasks on the list and arriving at Task B (but that isn't in fact what I'd be doing). I could also just write Task B at the end of the list, and scan quickly forward till I land on it (but that would be added work). I could invoke your common override rule, "If a task needs to be done now, just do it now!". But the intention of that override always seemed to be for handling emergencies and urgent things, rather than more mundane things like task sequencing and readiness.
And so none of these workarounds resolve that feeling of conflict. The workarounds seem to be giving me a back-door to my occasional impulsiveness to override the core psychology of the Simple Scanning process. Following impulse isn't the same thing as allowing something to stand out. I always feel a sense of discord when I break away from the rules even for small things like this -- and that discord plays havoc with the standing-out process. The more I use workarounds like this, the less I find myself able to trust the standing-out process.
Maybe I am making too much of this... but I'd welcome any insights you have. :-)