To Think About . . .

Nothing is foolproof because fools are ingenious. Anon

 

 

 

My Latest Book

Product Details

Also available on Amazon.com, Amazon.fr, and other Amazons and bookshops worldwide! 

Search This Site
Log-in
Latest Comments
My Other Books

Product Details

Product Details

Product Details

The Pathway to Awesomeness

Click to order other recommended books.

Find Us on Facebook Badge

Discussion Forum > I started my system, now some follow on questions

1. How do calendared items fit into the algorithms of FVP or FFVP? Assuming that the calender items are commitments you've made to be somewhere or do something at a certain time (to yourself or others), they are basically the same as writing an item at the end of your list and "working on it now"? This may sound trivial, but oftentimes I find myself trying to "squeeze" in an extra task before an appointment because I've dotted it. I really want to be a reliably punctual person, and need to crack this piece.
2. In GTD, there is a "model" for choosing work in the moment: work from your lists, define your work, and doing work as it shows up. (I'm not sure why this is a "model" rather than just options...but not important.) With something like FVP, or FFVP, defining your work kind of happens organically--so I see no reason to really consider this as an option. But the remaining two--working from your list or doing work as it shows up--are still two options that are available. With that as the background, how do you treat things that just show up for you to do on the spot? It's obviously overkill to write everything down (e.g. attend to screaming baby, answer the phone that is currently ringing). I guess I'm wanting to know how Mark, in the moment, decides to abandon the list. And also how to decide if something is worth writing on the list in the first place that you are going to do (think smaller than 2 minute items...like: hey look, there is a dish that needs to go into the dishwasher. I could just seriously do that right now, but I'm in the middle of task X, but I don't want to get sidetracked, but it's just so easy, but so is 100 other easy things in my sight...etc.). Also, do you pick up the list again as soon as you are done with the interruption? And one last question: do you ever just do something for a couple of hours without writing it on the list? Something like: I want to just go on a hike right now. I don't want to have to write it down, and then dot it, I just want to do it. I know this sounds stupid, but just trying to figure out how it all works together.
3. Since I work digitally is as easy to delete an item as it is to strike it through. Would you recommend striking through over entirely deleting an item? One reason I like deleting is that I don't resist putting stupid small stuff on there like "go fill up waterbottle". But I don't want 1000 small tasks to have to skip over each time I scan my list.
October 17, 2018 at 21:52 | Unregistered CommenterCameron
Unofficial answers (I don't think Mark has specifically \answered these anyhow.)

1. Calendared items don't go in FVP. If you have work that precedes a deadline, that goes in as a task that you should work regularly. If you want to be reliably punctual, make a note of when you need to leave (as opposed to arrive) and be sure to leave by then. Work that extra task only if there is adequate time before you should be prepared to leave.

2. If it will be done now and only takes a moment, do it without noting it. If it takes longer, note it, and move your current task to the end of the list. If you don't want to do it now and don't want to forget, note it now, do it later.

Yes, I don't always write on the list, but I'm not the best example. I understand Mark will always put big tasks like hiking on the list.

3. Mark likes the visible progress of striking things through as a psychological incentive. If you hate scanning through oodles of deleted items, it's a motive to get those older items gone or to work on them. I find working digitally it's harder to effectively cross out and reenter items, so I just don't.
October 17, 2018 at 23:37 | Registered CommenterAlan Baljeu
1. Mark generally says that these list systems are intended for managing your discretionary time (in between meetings). Personally, most of my day is controlled by my calendar. It is a visual representation of my main commitments to other people. I use the TM system only during the discretionary time.


2. Mark has often said "If something needs to be done now, just do it now!"

Personally I've often fallen into the trap of overthinking exactly what is meant by "needs" and what is meant by "now". So I think I can relate to your dilemma. In the end, I don't think it is helpful to try to find the perfect answer. My own solution is to go with whatever seems to work in the moment, and lean towards putting more on my list -- or just ignoring those items for the present. Many of the things that feel urgent in the moment really are not. The ones that really are urgent will tend to reassert their urgency all by themselves.


3. Mark talks about this in the article on attenuation. http://markforster.squarespace.com/blog/2017/12/13/simple-scanning-clumping-attenuation-and-maturity.html

Over time, a visual contrast emerges between the undone tasks and the crossed-out tasks surrounding them. You lose this visual clue with electronic systems that simply delete the tasks.

I have found a good workaround is to keep a series of electronic lists, and cap them at about 22 tasks. As I complete the tasks and delete them, the list gets shorter, and the remaining tasks stand out visually that way. Each of these single lists is like a page in a notebook.

(At work, I am doing this in OneNote, with each task captured as a "page", and about 20-25 pages in each "section", and creating a new section when the last section fills up. Then I just cycle through the sections. You can do the same thing in most electronic list apps or task tracking apps.)

The overall idea of using strikethrough includes the idea of skipping the pages that are all completed. If you don't have a page mechanism in your electronic app, you could just delete all the completed tasks that appear at the beginning of the list. This could motivate you to complete any single tasks, or small groups of tasks, that are preventing you from clearing away the subsequent batch of 50+ completed tasks. Not sure if I am describing this clearly...

Hope that helps!
October 18, 2018 at 23:50 | Registered CommenterSeraphim
It's OK to be early. Really, it's ok to sit in the car, or waiting room, or meeting room. You can spend the time reviewing notes and preparing for the meeting. Personally, I'm not embarassed to sit quietly and meditate. No one objects to people arriving early and smoking! If it's first thing in the day, or right after lunch, it's still your personal time, even if you're in the meeting room. Read a novel or write Christmas lists. (Christmas lists look more like work-work. I don't make personal calls, since I don't want them overheard.) If you have a "discuss with Susan" folder, bring that. You might have time with her before the meeting.

I prefer striking through finished tasks. It feels rewarding. (Idea I haven't tested: Different colour line for different days, so you can see how much you did today.) It also makes it very obvious if older lines aren't getting done, since they're surrounded by seas of finished lines.

I vary with writing down distracting tasks. If I can easily ignore the little impulse and get back to work, and I know I won't forget it, then I do. If ignoring it doesn't work, then I write it down, even if it's trivial and I know I'll remember it. At the very least, it gives me a laugh, which often reduces stress so I can focus better. It also depends on the task. I know I'll remember the dish (eventually) but I might forget to make a phone call. Yes, the best method for me really does vary, sometimes hourly.

Writing immediate tasks on the list and crossing them off gives a feeling of accomplishment, and can be a record of what you did. I might not have mopped the floor, but I did spend an hour with inconsolable baby, tidied the kitchen, dealt with routine email for an hour, and got exercise outside. Maybe the day wasn't wasted. Seriously, since I started writing all my accomplishments, even my daily routine, I feel better, which helps me do even more. Also, writing them all down helps sanity-check your plan for the day.

One option is have a "today's ideas" list. Tonight, copy any worthy items to the main list and throw away the rest. (That's not one of Mark's recommendations, but it works for me.)

Don't discount the power of breaks. They can make a huge difference. Less time on task, but that time is much more effective.
October 19, 2018 at 20:00 | Registered CommenterCricket
I've been following more of an RAF this past month than FVP (I tried to put the link below but I ran into capcha problems), and I use Outlook tasks, but the first thing I do every day is add my calendar events for the day to my list (drag and drop). This puts the start time on the list so i see it as well as remind me to do prep work and follow up work as needed.

What I do these days is a non orthodox RAF, working on tasks created Day before yesterday tasks, yesterday tasks and today's tasks as one list, along with any task that has a due date for today (I made a saved view in outlook that shows all of these sorted by creation date as one flat list). When that list is complete, I open up my created in the past week, then past month, than older than a month. I also categorize tasks with project name if applicable and will filter the whole list (regardless of creation day) by the project when it is time to work on it.

I think to do this effectively you cannot forget the little and often principle and when you've worked on a task, copy and paste it so it has a creation date of today and stays on your RAF list until; you have done no work on it for three days and it falls off to the past week list. 
October 21, 2018 at 15:31 | Unregistered Commentervegheadjones
Cameron:

<< How do calendared items fit into the algorithms of FVP or FFVP?

There are basically two types of calendared items. Ones with a time and ones without a time. The ones with a time are usually appointments, meetings, etc. These shouldn't be on your list at all. When the time you've identified as the leaving time arrives, you just stop work and leave. The ones without a time are usually on the lines of Call Bill (back from Holiday), Buy Birthday Present, End of Month Report.These should go on the list.

<< With that as the background, how do you treat things that just show up for you to do on the spot? It's obviously overkill to write everything down (e.g. attend to screaming baby, answer the phone that is currently ringing). >>

Both the examples you give are "immediate" tasks. You don't need a time management system to run these. Just do them.

<< hey look, there is a dish that needs to go into the dishwasher. I could just seriously do that right now, but I'm in the middle of task X, but I don't want to get sidetracked, but it's just so easy, but so is 100 other easy things in my sight...etc.). Also, do you pick up the list again as soon as you are done with the interruption? >>

You are basically making a problem where no problem exists. You are in the middle of Task X, so anything that isn't Task X should go on the list. Then you won't either forget it or be distracted by it.

<< do you ever just do something for a couple of hours without writing it on the list? Something like: I want to just go on a hike right now. I don't want to have to write it down, and then dot it, I just want to do it. >>

So this desire to go on a hike just suddenly came out of the blue without any warning and you are just going to drop everything and disappear for a couple of hours? That's called bunking off.

There's nothing wrong with going for a hike, but it should be planned. That means you either have it written in your calendar for a specific time or you have it on your list and it is selected in the normal way.

<< Since I work digitally is as easy to delete an item as it is to strike it through. Would you recommend striking through over entirely deleting an item? One reason I like deleting is that I don't resist putting stupid small stuff on there like "go fill up waterbottle". But I don't want 1000 small tasks to have to skip over each time I scan my list. >>

Personally I recommend using paper and pen in a small notebook. That way you can see immediately what is deleted and what is still current. But if you must use digital, then the easiest way to see quickly what is current and what is not is is to delete with a dark highlighter, rather than crossing out.

There's nothing stupid about putting "Fill Waterbottle", especially if you would otherwise forget to fill it. However if you have a thousand small tasks on your list, then you might want to actually do some of them instead of skipping over them every time.
October 21, 2018 at 16:50 | Registered CommenterMark Forster
Thank you to everyone for your posts. They are very helpful.

<<When the time you've identified as the leaving time arrives, you just stop work and leave.>>

What a completely simple, yet novel idea. I mean that in all seriousness and sincerity. Knowing I have a trusted system that I can return to now will help me to achieve this. I probably ought to schedule a commitment to prepare to leave and to travel, so that I have predetermined how much time it will take with buffer to arrive a few minutes early to my scheduled commitment.

<<So this desire to go on a hike just suddenly came out of the blue without any warning and you are just going to drop everything and disappear for a couple of hours? That's called bunking off.>>

Ha, bunking off. Had to look that one up. Perhaps going on a hike is not a good example. That is usually somewhat planned. As for tasks that come out of the blue without any warning and you just drop everything, don't those happen all the time? Examples: I just feel like taking lunch right now (not on my list or calendar, but I can put it there immediately); I just feel like walking over and talking to my coworker in the next office right now; I just feel like watching a youtube video right now (not on my list, but I want a break).

<<Personally I recommend using paper and pen in a small notebook.>>

I tried electronically last week and struggled somewhat with it. I am now trying a pen and notebook and am finding that to be more useful. I may eventually return to electronic format in Workflowy software, but I'll stick with a notebook now until I get have mastered the algorithm.

One issue I had last week that I struggled with is that I sorted through my large someday-maybe list and either deleted some, or moved the others to my long list. I started out with a huge list on day 2, so it was overwhelming to work it initially. I understand now why Mark advocates starting fresh rather than with a giant old list. I started a completely new list in a notebook and have been adding things as they come back up. It's been more manageable.

<<Both the examples you give are "immediate" tasks. You don't need a time management system to run these. Just do them.>>

I've thought about this for the past couple of days, and what constitutes "immediate". I feel like almost all personal interactions with others are immediate. I feel really silly when my wife is around writing stuff on a list that we are going to do. Like when I get home from work, we eat dinner. Then after dinner, we do the dishes together, then get our 1-year-old ready for be bed with a bedtime story, teeth-brushing, and some songs. Then we pickup the house and read together. This takes 2 hours, and I'm switching from one activity to the next many times without writing anything down or even consulting any list. The way you use the system, would you consider all of these things "immediate"? I want to be able to devote my attention wholly to whomever enters my time-space continuum (nerd alert) and don't want to pull out my notebook and write down "read with wife". Do you think it's appropriate to say "with people = immediate", and don't worry about using the list? Just trying to figure out when it's appropriate to say, "list, you are helpful, but I don't need you for the next little while. I'm with people."
October 25, 2018 at 16:04 | Unregistered CommenterCameron
Yes, add buffer time! We live in a tiny city, and it takes me 30 minutes to get anywhere (longer when the kids were small). It's better to add more time than less.

Want a break vs need a break? Very fine line. Stick it out a bit, or just sit with the feeling for a bit, or do something related to what you should be doing. Try something shorter than talking to your coworker. Charles Duhigg's book The Power of Habit has a good method of finding what part of the break you need, and what is just filler.

On the other hand, trying to work when you really do need a break burns energy but doesn't accomplish anything, leaving you worse off than if you listened to your body. The Pomodoro Technique can help with that. So can Just Get Out The Folder. My ADHD/ASD support group likes the Two Part Break. (I really should write that up. Start with a planned break. Chances are you need it, and it will raise your dopamine.)

You do not need to be on the list all the time.

It sounds like your evening routine is working. I would add "prepare tomorrow's launch pad," and keep the list handy enough that you can add to it if you think of something, but other than that, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Also, if you do need a list, repetitive tasks often done in a group can be moved to their own page. "Prepare for weekly meeting" is then a single line on the main. (Also, it's great with kids. Is your list done? takes less parental brain-power than remembering all the lines. Small kids enjoy moving magnets with picture from "not done" to "done" boxes. Older kids like seeing completed checklists add up to rewards. One year might be a bit young, though. When he's ready, start with a very short list of things he's already doing.)
October 25, 2018 at 19:35 | Registered CommenterCricket
Cameron:

<< The way you use the system, would you consider all of these things "immediate"? >>

No, none of them.

Some examples of "immediate tasks" are:

Dealing with a screaming baby

Dealing with a child that has cut its leg

Rescuing someone who is drowning

Evacuating a building when the fire alarm goes off

Dealing with a customer who comes into your shop
October 28, 2018 at 21:07 | Registered CommenterMark Forster
Agree mostly. But there still remains a "I'm with people now, I don't need to be doing list stuff for a while.". If you invite guests for lunch and have everything ready, then thd moment they arrive, feel free to set aside the list. If you are caught up with things and/or decide the next three hours will be you focused on your family, feel free to set aside that list.

But these are not the definition of Immediate. These examples are in fact tasks you might write down, and when you decide the time is right, you act on them according to plan, not at whim. OR you might instead schedule them; and when the time arrives, you leave list mode for your appointment.

If there are a few things you must take care of meanwhile, you could a) keep operating from the list at suitable moments or b) have a short list of just those things to keep yourself focused or c) just go by what you know in your head.
October 28, 2018 at 23:28 | Registered CommenterAlan Baljeu
That is becoming more clear what is considered immediate. Thank you.

I just purchased Mark's 50 secrets of productive people book and am about 1/3 through. Excellent material. I do like the distinction between discretionary versus non-discretionary time. I think it is a good idea to schedule some of that family time directly in my calendar.

I'm sure it will take me some experience with the system to figure a few things out, but I like it so far. This weekend I haven't even opened my list up (got sick with a cold), and I feel totally cool with it know I'll get right back at it when I get feeling better.

Mark, I appreciate the time that you've taken to share what you've learned with others. And for responding to our posts via your blog.
October 29, 2018 at 2:01 | Unregistered CommenterCameron