Discussion Forum > Intuition for the whole
Seraphim:
Thank you for some very interesting comments and insights.
I'll deal with Long List and No List in separate posts.
Thank you for some very interesting comments and insights.
I'll deal with Long List and No List in separate posts.
November 9, 2018 at 16:51 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Seraphim:
<< For the Long List (scan/stand-out) methods, it works great until something prevents you from cycling through the list enough (not enough discretionary time; too much incoming work; etc.) >>
I've got two things to say about this.
1. Your solution is to break away from the list in order to allow you "to recover and think and reflect, and let the natural focus emerge again out of the whole context." I would agree with this - in fact it's exactly what I do myself. BUT I do so in the context of the list. I have tasks on the list for recovering, thinking and reflecting. The trouble with breaking away from the list is that you may never come back to it - and even if you do you may have been away from it long enough to have lost your "feel" for what is on it.
2. One thing I think I have always emphasized over the years (though perhaps not enough) is that one shouldn't allow oneself to get bogged down in the list. What this basically means is that you shouldn't work on too many tasks per pass. If you do get bogged down, you will have a constant tension between what you are working on and what you feel you should be working on. You should aim to move rapidly round the list, which basically means not doing too many tasks per pass, and not spending too long on each task.
<< For the Long List (scan/stand-out) methods, it works great until something prevents you from cycling through the list enough (not enough discretionary time; too much incoming work; etc.) >>
I've got two things to say about this.
1. Your solution is to break away from the list in order to allow you "to recover and think and reflect, and let the natural focus emerge again out of the whole context." I would agree with this - in fact it's exactly what I do myself. BUT I do so in the context of the list. I have tasks on the list for recovering, thinking and reflecting. The trouble with breaking away from the list is that you may never come back to it - and even if you do you may have been away from it long enough to have lost your "feel" for what is on it.
2. One thing I think I have always emphasized over the years (though perhaps not enough) is that one shouldn't allow oneself to get bogged down in the list. What this basically means is that you shouldn't work on too many tasks per pass. If you do get bogged down, you will have a constant tension between what you are working on and what you feel you should be working on. You should aim to move rapidly round the list, which basically means not doing too many tasks per pass, and not spending too long on each task.
November 9, 2018 at 17:02 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Seraphim:
<< For No-List, for me it was the relentlessness of it -- I would just get so exhausted, I could no longer intuit anything, and would start processing administrivia, or wander aimlessly. >>
If you were training in a sport you would be aware of the phenomenon known as "overtraining", which is basically not giving yourself enough rest between training sessions. It's an inefficient way to train which often results in injuries. And furthermore it usually leads to lack of progress in that after a certain stage your muscle strength, running speed, or whatever, tops out and no longer gets any better.
Exactly the same seems to be happening with you in No List. The word "relentless" is the key. You are not giving yourself enough rest. Instruct your intuition to give you the right degree of rest as part of the system and all will be well.
<< For No-List, for me it was the relentlessness of it -- I would just get so exhausted, I could no longer intuit anything, and would start processing administrivia, or wander aimlessly. >>
If you were training in a sport you would be aware of the phenomenon known as "overtraining", which is basically not giving yourself enough rest between training sessions. It's an inefficient way to train which often results in injuries. And furthermore it usually leads to lack of progress in that after a certain stage your muscle strength, running speed, or whatever, tops out and no longer gets any better.
Exactly the same seems to be happening with you in No List. The word "relentless" is the key. You are not giving yourself enough rest. Instruct your intuition to give you the right degree of rest as part of the system and all will be well.
November 9, 2018 at 17:12 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Mark, I find it interesting that you include rest in your list. In a good way.
In all my searching the past decade for a good time-management system for myself, I've decided that it must include intuition.
I like this discussion about using intuition with long lists, as I've struggled to use intuition with my long list and simple scanning. I could use some help.
One issue I have: I resist writing small things down on the list because I don't want my list have 100 tiny crossed out things each day. (e.g. go get a snack, fill waterbottle, bathroom break). Before stumbling on simple scanning and the long list method, I tried my own invented method of just writing down every single thing that I plan to do next, as it unfolds (unless it was something obvious like "respond to wife's question"). This was a most interesting exercise and forced me to distill into writing my next intended action--which really helped me to tap into intuition. Mark, are you suggesting that the long list should behave in this manner? If you decide you are about to go do anything and it is not on the list already, put it on the list, and then scan your way down to that item quickly?
To be more concrete, here is my actual current list, without the crossed out items. I will illustrated several hiccups I've encountered in using simple scanning with a long list. I numbered the items here for convenience:
1 Sharpen knife
2 Buy mini-fridge
3 Buy new phones
4 Review load environments
5 Portion fruit
6 Exercise
7 Prepare margin calculations
8 Write letter to Adam
9 Bind NASA 5020
10 Return bottles to mom
11 Respond to friends
12 Arrange Nearer My God to Thee
13 Update Solid Edge
14 Research selling dumbbells
15 Research thermocouple locale
16 Prepare margin calculations
17 Get family pictures
18 Setup electronic picture frame
19 Detail and wash jeep
20 Find earpiece
21 Finalize Christmas list
22 Finalize budget
23 Verify fixture bolt pattern
24 Request overtime hours
25 Buy lemon juicer
26 Transfer money to HELOC
27 Finalize credit card use
28 Request exception to modal damping requirement
29 Buy sweaters
30 Read NASA-5020
31 Process inboxes
32 Complete random vibration analyses
(There is a lot more in my head, but I've resisting writing them down the past week as I just went through a gnarly sickness where I hardly used my list.)
So, suppose I am currently working on "7 Prepare margin calculations" and then decide I should take a quick walk around the office and stretch. So I write "33 Take a walk" at the end of my list. If my intuition tells me that I know I want to get up and take a walk right now, do you still work through the list with the algorithm from #7? That's one time when the algorithm seems at odds with intuition. If I just plain know that what I want to do, yet I may need to scan through potentially hundreds of items (if I have a huge list) before I can get to that one thing that I know I want to do right now.
Let's just suppose I do work through the list, and get down to #33, having not selected anything else in between 7 and 33. I have decided to now take a walk. But first, do I now quickly write #34 Prepare margin calculations, then cross out #7 right before my walk so that it is available for me to work on right away when I get back? I'm a little unsure if I write the thing I'm about to do first, then write the thing I just work on next, then cross out the item just worked on.
My list now presumably has
33 Take walk
34 Prepare margin calculations.
After my walk, I cross out the item, then I intuit that I need to work on 34 again. After I work on 34 for a while, I decide I am done working on that, but I don't know what to do next. So I write 35 Prepare margin calculations, then cross out 34 Prepare margin calculations. As soon I cross it off, I think to myself "you know I didn't know what I wanted to do next, but now I realize that I really need to go to the bathroom. Like, right now." So I write 36 bathroom break. My list now has this at the end:
32 Complete random vibration analyses
33 Take walk (crossed out)
34 Prepare margin calculations (crossed out)
35 Prepare margin calculations
36 Bathroom break.
After my bathroom break, I decide to stop off at the kitchen to fill a waterbottle. But first, ack! I don't have my notebook and I can't write this down--but I'm not about to go back to my office and get the notebook, just to write down "37 fill waterbottle" when I'm already up and doing it. I just do it anyway. But a part of me feels like I've stayed from the list algorithm of writing everything down you need to do. Oh well, not that big of a deal. Onward.
When I get back to my desk, I feel like I really ought to get back to 35 Prepare margin calculations, but I just finished 36 Bathroom break. I cross off 36, but then I need to cycle back all the way through the others just to get to 35 again.
That was a really long-winded example, but it illustrates a few of the problems that the long-list algorithm (at least simple scanning) has made using my intuition feel a little clunky.
By the way, while typing this, another fellow mechanical engineer colleague popped in my door. He specializes in thermal analysis, so I thought it was an opportune time to ask him about item 15 Research thermocouple locale. I wouldn't consider this "immediate" like a screaming child, or attending to a scraped knee, but it was advantageous for me to drop everything else and ask him, except I didn't use my algorithm to get to 15. I just did it without the algorithm.
In short, I'm just trying to figure out if you really do use the list and simple scanning (assuming that is your algorithm of choice) for basically everything you do in your spare time, or in what special situations you don't.
In all my searching the past decade for a good time-management system for myself, I've decided that it must include intuition.
I like this discussion about using intuition with long lists, as I've struggled to use intuition with my long list and simple scanning. I could use some help.
One issue I have: I resist writing small things down on the list because I don't want my list have 100 tiny crossed out things each day. (e.g. go get a snack, fill waterbottle, bathroom break). Before stumbling on simple scanning and the long list method, I tried my own invented method of just writing down every single thing that I plan to do next, as it unfolds (unless it was something obvious like "respond to wife's question"). This was a most interesting exercise and forced me to distill into writing my next intended action--which really helped me to tap into intuition. Mark, are you suggesting that the long list should behave in this manner? If you decide you are about to go do anything and it is not on the list already, put it on the list, and then scan your way down to that item quickly?
To be more concrete, here is my actual current list, without the crossed out items. I will illustrated several hiccups I've encountered in using simple scanning with a long list. I numbered the items here for convenience:
1 Sharpen knife
2 Buy mini-fridge
3 Buy new phones
4 Review load environments
5 Portion fruit
6 Exercise
7 Prepare margin calculations
8 Write letter to Adam
9 Bind NASA 5020
10 Return bottles to mom
11 Respond to friends
12 Arrange Nearer My God to Thee
13 Update Solid Edge
14 Research selling dumbbells
15 Research thermocouple locale
16 Prepare margin calculations
17 Get family pictures
18 Setup electronic picture frame
19 Detail and wash jeep
20 Find earpiece
21 Finalize Christmas list
22 Finalize budget
23 Verify fixture bolt pattern
24 Request overtime hours
25 Buy lemon juicer
26 Transfer money to HELOC
27 Finalize credit card use
28 Request exception to modal damping requirement
29 Buy sweaters
30 Read NASA-5020
31 Process inboxes
32 Complete random vibration analyses
(There is a lot more in my head, but I've resisting writing them down the past week as I just went through a gnarly sickness where I hardly used my list.)
So, suppose I am currently working on "7 Prepare margin calculations" and then decide I should take a quick walk around the office and stretch. So I write "33 Take a walk" at the end of my list. If my intuition tells me that I know I want to get up and take a walk right now, do you still work through the list with the algorithm from #7? That's one time when the algorithm seems at odds with intuition. If I just plain know that what I want to do, yet I may need to scan through potentially hundreds of items (if I have a huge list) before I can get to that one thing that I know I want to do right now.
Let's just suppose I do work through the list, and get down to #33, having not selected anything else in between 7 and 33. I have decided to now take a walk. But first, do I now quickly write #34 Prepare margin calculations, then cross out #7 right before my walk so that it is available for me to work on right away when I get back? I'm a little unsure if I write the thing I'm about to do first, then write the thing I just work on next, then cross out the item just worked on.
My list now presumably has
33 Take walk
34 Prepare margin calculations.
After my walk, I cross out the item, then I intuit that I need to work on 34 again. After I work on 34 for a while, I decide I am done working on that, but I don't know what to do next. So I write 35 Prepare margin calculations, then cross out 34 Prepare margin calculations. As soon I cross it off, I think to myself "you know I didn't know what I wanted to do next, but now I realize that I really need to go to the bathroom. Like, right now." So I write 36 bathroom break. My list now has this at the end:
32 Complete random vibration analyses
33 Take walk (crossed out)
34 Prepare margin calculations (crossed out)
35 Prepare margin calculations
36 Bathroom break.
After my bathroom break, I decide to stop off at the kitchen to fill a waterbottle. But first, ack! I don't have my notebook and I can't write this down--but I'm not about to go back to my office and get the notebook, just to write down "37 fill waterbottle" when I'm already up and doing it. I just do it anyway. But a part of me feels like I've stayed from the list algorithm of writing everything down you need to do. Oh well, not that big of a deal. Onward.
When I get back to my desk, I feel like I really ought to get back to 35 Prepare margin calculations, but I just finished 36 Bathroom break. I cross off 36, but then I need to cycle back all the way through the others just to get to 35 again.
That was a really long-winded example, but it illustrates a few of the problems that the long-list algorithm (at least simple scanning) has made using my intuition feel a little clunky.
By the way, while typing this, another fellow mechanical engineer colleague popped in my door. He specializes in thermal analysis, so I thought it was an opportune time to ask him about item 15 Research thermocouple locale. I wouldn't consider this "immediate" like a screaming child, or attending to a scraped knee, but it was advantageous for me to drop everything else and ask him, except I didn't use my algorithm to get to 15. I just did it without the algorithm.
In short, I'm just trying to figure out if you really do use the list and simple scanning (assuming that is your algorithm of choice) for basically everything you do in your spare time, or in what special situations you don't.
November 9, 2018 at 23:43 |
Cameron
Cameron
Cameron:
The Long List is not intended for immediate items, i.e. where there is a stimulus followed by an immediate response, nor is it intended for scheduled items (though it may include the preparation for them).
To go through your examples this would rule out:
- Taking a walk right now (though the List might include taking a walk at an unspecified time)
- Going to the bathroom
- Filling a waterbottle on impulse (though this might be on the list as a non-impulse item)
- Visitors whether expected (i.e. scheduled) or unexpected (i.e. immediate) (though the preparation for that visitor might be on the list)
Please note that "immediate" is not synonymous with "emergency". Emergencies are one type of immediate item, but there are many others, such as unexpected visitors, phone calls, customers coming into a shop.
The Long List is not intended for immediate items, i.e. where there is a stimulus followed by an immediate response, nor is it intended for scheduled items (though it may include the preparation for them).
To go through your examples this would rule out:
- Taking a walk right now (though the List might include taking a walk at an unspecified time)
- Going to the bathroom
- Filling a waterbottle on impulse (though this might be on the list as a non-impulse item)
- Visitors whether expected (i.e. scheduled) or unexpected (i.e. immediate) (though the preparation for that visitor might be on the list)
Please note that "immediate" is not synonymous with "emergency". Emergencies are one type of immediate item, but there are many others, such as unexpected visitors, phone calls, customers coming into a shop.
November 10, 2018 at 2:19 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
I've been reading the past couple years of blog posts and comments to understand some of the nuances of simple scanning.
<<The Long List is not intended for immediate items, i.e. where there is a stimulus followed by an immediate response, nor is it intended for scheduled items (though it may include the preparation for them). >>
If one is using simple scanning, it appears you can do one of three things at any given time:
1. Do a calendared item when the time arrives
2. In your spare time between calendared items, use the long list with simple scanning
3. Do an immediate item when the stimulus pings you--without writing it down.
Would you say this is accurate? Are there any other "option buckets" that a task could fall into?
To clarify immediate:
Emergencies are immediate items.
Bathroom breaks are immediate.
Somebody stepping into office is immediate.
Your wife asking you to do something for her right now is immediate.
A diaper change need for a child is immediate.
Filling up a waterbottle because your thirsty is immediate.
What about the following as immediate:
Eating when you feel hungry (either a snack or lunch break)?
Anything that is very convenient to do right now (i.e. picking up the mail from the car while you pull into the driveway, washing the dish right after you eat, putting away that one toy that is sitting in the middle of the floor after the child goes to bed)?
Just to clarify, a stimulus doesn't always mean immediate, correct? You could have a stimulus to want to watch a youtube video, but something like that should put on the list for a break, like watch cat videos. How do you distinguish between a stimulus that ought to be acted on now and a stimulus that is more like an impulse?
Mark, could you provide a handful of concrete examples of things that you do during the day that you consider immediate?
<<The Long List is not intended for immediate items, i.e. where there is a stimulus followed by an immediate response, nor is it intended for scheduled items (though it may include the preparation for them). >>
If one is using simple scanning, it appears you can do one of three things at any given time:
1. Do a calendared item when the time arrives
2. In your spare time between calendared items, use the long list with simple scanning
3. Do an immediate item when the stimulus pings you--without writing it down.
Would you say this is accurate? Are there any other "option buckets" that a task could fall into?
To clarify immediate:
Emergencies are immediate items.
Bathroom breaks are immediate.
Somebody stepping into office is immediate.
Your wife asking you to do something for her right now is immediate.
A diaper change need for a child is immediate.
Filling up a waterbottle because your thirsty is immediate.
What about the following as immediate:
Eating when you feel hungry (either a snack or lunch break)?
Anything that is very convenient to do right now (i.e. picking up the mail from the car while you pull into the driveway, washing the dish right after you eat, putting away that one toy that is sitting in the middle of the floor after the child goes to bed)?
Just to clarify, a stimulus doesn't always mean immediate, correct? You could have a stimulus to want to watch a youtube video, but something like that should put on the list for a break, like watch cat videos. How do you distinguish between a stimulus that ought to be acted on now and a stimulus that is more like an impulse?
Mark, could you provide a handful of concrete examples of things that you do during the day that you consider immediate?
November 11, 2018 at 19:44 |
Cameron
Cameron
Basically if it can't wait, or if it takes less than 60 seconds, you do it now and don't bother with the list. Eating that cookie might be something you want to restrict yourself on, so List it. Or maybe you don't have a cookie problem so go ahead and est one now. It's really up to you.
November 12, 2018 at 0:34 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Alan, the 60 second items you refer to sounds a lot like GTD's two minute rule. Is this something that Mark has talked about before?
As I've thought more about this today, I've also wondered about things that are routinized to the point where you don't need to add it to your list. Something like pick up the house after the kids go down, or empty work bag and change clothes when I get home from work. Is it pretty consistent with Mark's blogging over the years that if a habit is on cruise control and doesn't need to be written down, then don't worry about writing it down and do it as you need to?
If this is true, then I would add another option to my list above: 4. Routines or habits that you are so ingrained that you don't need to worry about writing down a reminder.
Do you ever use a physical object as a reminder to do something rather than writing it down? I'm trying a new approach for doing laundry of just setting the clean clothes on the bed. If I walk into the bedroom I notice if the clothes "stand out" and then I fold for as long as I want to. If not, I don't. I know Mark puts things like dishes on his list. Is it recommended that routine Tonga like this pretty much be handled within the long list system?
This for your patience with my newbie questions. I have an item on my list of "understand simple scanning really well" with all its nuances/exceptions, etc.
As I've thought more about this today, I've also wondered about things that are routinized to the point where you don't need to add it to your list. Something like pick up the house after the kids go down, or empty work bag and change clothes when I get home from work. Is it pretty consistent with Mark's blogging over the years that if a habit is on cruise control and doesn't need to be written down, then don't worry about writing it down and do it as you need to?
If this is true, then I would add another option to my list above: 4. Routines or habits that you are so ingrained that you don't need to worry about writing down a reminder.
Do you ever use a physical object as a reminder to do something rather than writing it down? I'm trying a new approach for doing laundry of just setting the clean clothes on the bed. If I walk into the bedroom I notice if the clothes "stand out" and then I fold for as long as I want to. If not, I don't. I know Mark puts things like dishes on his list. Is it recommended that routine Tonga like this pretty much be handled within the long list system?
This for your patience with my newbie questions. I have an item on my list of "understand simple scanning really well" with all its nuances/exceptions, etc.
November 12, 2018 at 2:38 |
Cameron
Cameron
Cameron:
I think Alan summed it up best: "It's really up to you".
If it helps you to have it on the list, then have it on the list. If having it on the list gets in your way, then don't have it on the list. This is so dependent on your personality and style of working, that it's impossible to be more specific than general guidelines.
I think Alan summed it up best: "It's really up to you".
If it helps you to have it on the list, then have it on the list. If having it on the list gets in your way, then don't have it on the list. This is so dependent on your personality and style of working, that it's impossible to be more specific than general guidelines.
November 12, 2018 at 14:16 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Thank Alan and Mark.
<<If it helps you to have it on the list, then have it on the list. If having it on the list gets in your way, then don't have it on the list>>
I think that answers a lot of the questions I've been having about how to use long list. Just knowing that it's okay to leave stuff off a list that I do is really helpful. I'll have to observe my own personality and work style over the months and home in on what works best for me. Today, I've been a lot more relaxed about attending to immediate items, and to those small items that I just feel like doing now.
Mark, I did read on some previous blogs and comments that you tend towards "the more things you use the list for the better." Would you say that your personality is one that basically likes to use list for almost everything you do?
By the way, I've been using your question of "How good am I feeling now?" today. Such a wonderfully original and brilliant idea.
<<If it helps you to have it on the list, then have it on the list. If having it on the list gets in your way, then don't have it on the list>>
I think that answers a lot of the questions I've been having about how to use long list. Just knowing that it's okay to leave stuff off a list that I do is really helpful. I'll have to observe my own personality and work style over the months and home in on what works best for me. Today, I've been a lot more relaxed about attending to immediate items, and to those small items that I just feel like doing now.
Mark, I did read on some previous blogs and comments that you tend towards "the more things you use the list for the better." Would you say that your personality is one that basically likes to use list for almost everything you do?
By the way, I've been using your question of "How good am I feeling now?" today. Such a wonderfully original and brilliant idea.
November 12, 2018 at 21:46 |
Cameron
Cameron
Cameron:
<< Mark, I did read on some previous blogs and comments that you tend towards "the more things you use the list for the better." Would you say that your personality is one that basically likes to use list for almost everything you do? >>
I've found by experience that things that I put on the list get well-organized and keep moving, while things I don't put on the list are liable to get forgotten about and get left behind. So I tend to use it for as much as I can. Whether that's a matter of my personality or not I really can't say. All I know is that I am not a naturally organized person. I had to develop my time management methods primarily for my own use.
<< Mark, I did read on some previous blogs and comments that you tend towards "the more things you use the list for the better." Would you say that your personality is one that basically likes to use list for almost everything you do? >>
I've found by experience that things that I put on the list get well-organized and keep moving, while things I don't put on the list are liable to get forgotten about and get left behind. So I tend to use it for as much as I can. Whether that's a matter of my personality or not I really can't say. All I know is that I am not a naturally organized person. I had to develop my time management methods primarily for my own use.
November 12, 2018 at 21:56 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
<<I've found by experience that things that I put on the list get well-organized and keep moving, while things I don't put on the list are liable to get forgotten about and get left behind.>>
That is a great testimonial. I think I will err on the side of writing more things down than not and just see how it goes.
I can't even tell you how much more relaxed I am the past week or two using simple scanning. The Getting Things Done methodology is good, but I noticed that often it filled me with anxiety and I often resisted the lists. Your methodology is great, and I notice I am generally more relaxed and am attracted to my list. Plus it is so simple, something I've always hoped for in a productivity method.
I also read in your blog that you had some rough times with chemotherapy and radiation. I'm sorry to hear the tough times you've been through. Thank you for your dedication to serving random people like me that you don't know.
That is a great testimonial. I think I will err on the side of writing more things down than not and just see how it goes.
I can't even tell you how much more relaxed I am the past week or two using simple scanning. The Getting Things Done methodology is good, but I noticed that often it filled me with anxiety and I often resisted the lists. Your methodology is great, and I notice I am generally more relaxed and am attracted to my list. Plus it is so simple, something I've always hoped for in a productivity method.
I also read in your blog that you had some rough times with chemotherapy and radiation. I'm sorry to hear the tough times you've been through. Thank you for your dedication to serving random people like me that you don't know.
November 13, 2018 at 2:03 |
Cameron
Cameron
Cameron:
<< I also read in your blog that you had some rough times with chemotherapy and radiation. I'm sorry to hear the tough times you've been through. >>
Thanks. I had my four-monthly check-up with my consultant this morning and all was ok. And many thanks to all readers for their good wishes and prayers.
<< I also read in your blog that you had some rough times with chemotherapy and radiation. I'm sorry to hear the tough times you've been through. >>
Thanks. I had my four-monthly check-up with my consultant this morning and all was ok. And many thanks to all readers for their good wishes and prayers.
November 13, 2018 at 14:49 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Cameron,
One way of reducing the length of the list (not the items on it, just using less paper), is sub-lists. My morning housework is "be-ba-k-li-la-g". When scanning, I sometimes see one line, "housework," and sometimes see each task separately. I don't worry about it. When doing and crossing off, each one is treated as a separate line -- until I've done enough housework for the day (reason varies), at which time I cross off the entire line. I used to circle any tasks I didn't do, so they'd catch my eye when scanning the entire list. With this group, at least, that isn't necessary, since anything I ignore for too long becomes obvious.
Another method is context or project or both. My grocery list isn't part of the main list (although "put bread on grocery list" might be). Newsletter might be one line on the master list, expanding to several lines in the project file. "Chase N" might be on the master list (she leaves for holiday soon and her submissions usually take several edit rounds, sigh), and everyone else stays in the project file. Closer to publication, they all go on the master list so I can nag a few each day without opening the file.
One way of reducing the length of the list (not the items on it, just using less paper), is sub-lists. My morning housework is "be-ba-k-li-la-g". When scanning, I sometimes see one line, "housework," and sometimes see each task separately. I don't worry about it. When doing and crossing off, each one is treated as a separate line -- until I've done enough housework for the day (reason varies), at which time I cross off the entire line. I used to circle any tasks I didn't do, so they'd catch my eye when scanning the entire list. With this group, at least, that isn't necessary, since anything I ignore for too long becomes obvious.
Another method is context or project or both. My grocery list isn't part of the main list (although "put bread on grocery list" might be). Newsletter might be one line on the master list, expanding to several lines in the project file. "Chase N" might be on the master list (she leaves for holiday soon and her submissions usually take several edit rounds, sigh), and everyone else stays in the project file. Closer to publication, they all go on the master list so I can nag a few each day without opening the file.
November 15, 2018 at 17:39 |
Cricket
Cricket
Mark --
<< Your solution is to break away from the list in order to allow you "to recover and think and reflect, and let the natural focus emerge again out of the whole context." I would agree with this - in fact it's exactly what I do myself. BUT I do so in the context of the list. >>
I've been experimenting with this… more below.
<< One thing I think I have always emphasized over the years (though perhaps not enough) is that one shouldn't allow oneself to get bogged down in the list. >>
Yes, this is clearly a prerequisite for success with Long List systems. I suppose the challenge for me has always been HOW to avoid getting bogged down in the list.
Sure, I can force myself to go faster, but this has always seemed to run counter to the "work on whatever stands out" and "work as long as you want" rules, which are the heart of the whole system.
You have often said the solution to this kind of problem is very simple: you just need to give your intuition better instructions on what kind of things should stand out. So this has been the center of my experimentation. I've been trying to apply a very light touch to my list - not trying to "get everything done" but just do what I do so naturally when I am off list: probe, sense, respond -- with the purpose of getting a stronger intuition for the whole, and allowing the focus to emerge naturally.
So the instruction to my intuition has been something along these lines: "just do enough to get a stronger sense of the whole, and let the focus emerge."
This has worked pretty well. But soon, I started finding some "large rock" tasks that did not like this approach. They are tasks that need some deeper thinking and engagement. They don't respond at all to the light touch. But it occurred to me, I could use timeboxing for these. Just work for 10 minutes and see what happens. This allows me to focus completely on these "intractable problem" tasks but just for a short time. This is helping.
<< Your solution is to break away from the list in order to allow you "to recover and think and reflect, and let the natural focus emerge again out of the whole context." I would agree with this - in fact it's exactly what I do myself. BUT I do so in the context of the list. >>
I've been experimenting with this… more below.
<< One thing I think I have always emphasized over the years (though perhaps not enough) is that one shouldn't allow oneself to get bogged down in the list. >>
Yes, this is clearly a prerequisite for success with Long List systems. I suppose the challenge for me has always been HOW to avoid getting bogged down in the list.
Sure, I can force myself to go faster, but this has always seemed to run counter to the "work on whatever stands out" and "work as long as you want" rules, which are the heart of the whole system.
You have often said the solution to this kind of problem is very simple: you just need to give your intuition better instructions on what kind of things should stand out. So this has been the center of my experimentation. I've been trying to apply a very light touch to my list - not trying to "get everything done" but just do what I do so naturally when I am off list: probe, sense, respond -- with the purpose of getting a stronger intuition for the whole, and allowing the focus to emerge naturally.
So the instruction to my intuition has been something along these lines: "just do enough to get a stronger sense of the whole, and let the focus emerge."
This has worked pretty well. But soon, I started finding some "large rock" tasks that did not like this approach. They are tasks that need some deeper thinking and engagement. They don't respond at all to the light touch. But it occurred to me, I could use timeboxing for these. Just work for 10 minutes and see what happens. This allows me to focus completely on these "intractable problem" tasks but just for a short time. This is helping.
November 15, 2018 at 20:25 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
<< If you were training in a sport you would be aware of the phenomenon known as "overtraining", which is basically not giving yourself enough rest between training sessions >>
It was really intriguing to read this. I had been coming to the same conclusion, and it was inspired by the very same source - physical training of some kind. I've been doing Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength weight-training program this last year or so, and it's been the only exercise program that has ever worked for me at all. (It's been great! I highly recommend it!) And they emphasize that the recovery period between training sessions is crucially important, especially for men over 50. http://startingstrength.com/
I had begun to see how the cycle of stress and recovery applies directly to my work and time management. Let's say I just completed some major effort, and am now in the recovery phase. This is where I am starting fresh, consolidating, collecting, assessing. I review the older things on my list, and add a lot of new things. Or maybe I actually start a fresh new list. I start developing a sense for the current environment, and, as usual, it quickly becomes clear that the chaos is ever-present. I can still work through it with the list to a point, letting the new focus emerge, but eventually I would get overwhelmed and need to go off-list to find the focus. Then I'd use whatever tools made sense to figure out how to deal with the new focus -- put in some sustained effort to achieve the next breakthrough or solution -- and then go back to the recovery phase. This cycle could last a few days, or sometimes several weeks. That has been a consistent pattern for me, and it "fit" really well with the stress & recovery model. My first reaction was to see this cycle as an obstacle, but lately I had been pondering how to take advantage of it.
So anyway, this is another area of experimentation: How to move more naturally and effortlessly between the stress phase (focused sustained effort) and the recovery phase (explore, consolidate, let the new focus emerge).
Right now the same instruction to my intuition seems to apply - "just do enough to get a stronger sense of the whole, and let the focus emerge." But that's because I currently find myself in one of those recovery phases. It will be interesting to see how this evolves as the new focus emerges and I move into that stress/focus phase.
It was really intriguing to read this. I had been coming to the same conclusion, and it was inspired by the very same source - physical training of some kind. I've been doing Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength weight-training program this last year or so, and it's been the only exercise program that has ever worked for me at all. (It's been great! I highly recommend it!) And they emphasize that the recovery period between training sessions is crucially important, especially for men over 50. http://startingstrength.com/
I had begun to see how the cycle of stress and recovery applies directly to my work and time management. Let's say I just completed some major effort, and am now in the recovery phase. This is where I am starting fresh, consolidating, collecting, assessing. I review the older things on my list, and add a lot of new things. Or maybe I actually start a fresh new list. I start developing a sense for the current environment, and, as usual, it quickly becomes clear that the chaos is ever-present. I can still work through it with the list to a point, letting the new focus emerge, but eventually I would get overwhelmed and need to go off-list to find the focus. Then I'd use whatever tools made sense to figure out how to deal with the new focus -- put in some sustained effort to achieve the next breakthrough or solution -- and then go back to the recovery phase. This cycle could last a few days, or sometimes several weeks. That has been a consistent pattern for me, and it "fit" really well with the stress & recovery model. My first reaction was to see this cycle as an obstacle, but lately I had been pondering how to take advantage of it.
So anyway, this is another area of experimentation: How to move more naturally and effortlessly between the stress phase (focused sustained effort) and the recovery phase (explore, consolidate, let the new focus emerge).
Right now the same instruction to my intuition seems to apply - "just do enough to get a stronger sense of the whole, and let the focus emerge." But that's because I currently find myself in one of those recovery phases. It will be interesting to see how this evolves as the new focus emerges and I move into that stress/focus phase.
November 15, 2018 at 20:30 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
In these experiments, it has been very helpful to approach the Long List as a Thinking Tool, rather than as an Action Tool.
When something stands out and I take action on it, I am approaching it as "What can I learn from this?" rather than "How is this helping me get everything done?" Somehow this relieves a lot of the pressure and helps me maintain a more natural, thoughtful attitude. Interestingly, the work itself actually seems to flow better, too, but almost as a side effect.
Anyway, thanks as always for your feedback, it has led to some fruitful experimenting. :-)
When something stands out and I take action on it, I am approaching it as "What can I learn from this?" rather than "How is this helping me get everything done?" Somehow this relieves a lot of the pressure and helps me maintain a more natural, thoughtful attitude. Interestingly, the work itself actually seems to flow better, too, but almost as a side effect.
Anyway, thanks as always for your feedback, it has led to some fruitful experimenting. :-)
November 15, 2018 at 20:31 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Mark, could you say some more how you have addressed Simple Scanning's propensity to allow the list to grow uncontrollably?
Your ideas (above) have been very helpful, but I still find that during times of limited discretionary time, the list grows too fast and I start to lose a strong intuition for the list as a whole.
After a migraine today, which caused my sleep schedule to get out of whack, I've spent several hours this late evening reading your old blog posts from the last two or three years. It was fascinating reviewing the development of your thinking as you moved from no-list systems back to catch-all, and then finally to Simple Scanning.
One thing I noticed a few times... you kept trying to find ways to fix Simple Scanning's propensity to allow the list to grow uncontrollably. For example:
<< Simple scanning does have two major disadvantages though: 1. The list tends to grow uncontrollably, 2. It gets spread over a large number of pages if one’s using a notebook and pencil/pen. >>
http://markforster.squarespace.com/blog/2017/7/13/high-volume-high-speed-low-resistance-5.html
Ultimately, you concluded that Simple Scanning was superior to the many attempts to improve on it. But I wasn't sure if you found a good way to address the list growth.
Thanks!
Your ideas (above) have been very helpful, but I still find that during times of limited discretionary time, the list grows too fast and I start to lose a strong intuition for the list as a whole.
After a migraine today, which caused my sleep schedule to get out of whack, I've spent several hours this late evening reading your old blog posts from the last two or three years. It was fascinating reviewing the development of your thinking as you moved from no-list systems back to catch-all, and then finally to Simple Scanning.
One thing I noticed a few times... you kept trying to find ways to fix Simple Scanning's propensity to allow the list to grow uncontrollably. For example:
<< Simple scanning does have two major disadvantages though: 1. The list tends to grow uncontrollably, 2. It gets spread over a large number of pages if one’s using a notebook and pencil/pen. >>
http://markforster.squarespace.com/blog/2017/7/13/high-volume-high-speed-low-resistance-5.html
Ultimately, you concluded that Simple Scanning was superior to the many attempts to improve on it. But I wasn't sure if you found a good way to address the list growth.
Thanks!
November 20, 2018 at 8:05 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Seraphim:
<< But I wasn't sure if you found a good way to address the list growth. >>
In the end I found that my list stabilized just over the 100 mark. It did this with no rules about weeding the list. What I found was that system cleared a lot of things up (which meant they needed less attention in the future), made it obvious that I didn't really want to do other things (which I then just crossed of the list, and generally made me aware of what I was capable of doing without strain (which reduced the number of things going on the list).
Having said all that, I'm now using Another Simple and Effective Method, which so far seems even quicker and better at achieving the same result. We shall see.
<< But I wasn't sure if you found a good way to address the list growth. >>
In the end I found that my list stabilized just over the 100 mark. It did this with no rules about weeding the list. What I found was that system cleared a lot of things up (which meant they needed less attention in the future), made it obvious that I didn't really want to do other things (which I then just crossed of the list, and generally made me aware of what I was capable of doing without strain (which reduced the number of things going on the list).
Having said all that, I'm now using Another Simple and Effective Method, which so far seems even quicker and better at achieving the same result. We shall see.
November 20, 2018 at 14:46 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Quicker and better at which result? Stabilizing the list length?
For what it's worth, I've been employing the two-list system I mentioned here recently with success. My working list (which consists of personal stuff and current work initiatives) is currently 30 items, which feels exactly where I want it to be. (Though it fluctuates as things get put aside or mainlined.)
My Later list is currently about 70 items, but the way this operates, I could easily deal with a lot more Laters.
For what it's worth, I've been employing the two-list system I mentioned here recently with success. My working list (which consists of personal stuff and current work initiatives) is currently 30 items, which feels exactly where I want it to be. (Though it fluctuates as things get put aside or mainlined.)
My Later list is currently about 70 items, but the way this operates, I could easily deal with a lot more Laters.
November 20, 2018 at 19:58 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu:
<< Quicker and better at which result? Stabilizing the list length? >>
All the things I mentioned, i.e.
"In the end I found that my list stabilized just over the 100 mark. It did this with no rules about weeding the list. What I found was that system cleared a lot of things up (which meant they needed less attention in the future), made it obvious that I didn't really want to do other things (which I then just crossed of the list, and generally made me aware of what I was capable of doing without strain (which reduced the number of things going on the list)."
<< Quicker and better at which result? Stabilizing the list length? >>
All the things I mentioned, i.e.
"In the end I found that my list stabilized just over the 100 mark. It did this with no rules about weeding the list. What I found was that system cleared a lot of things up (which meant they needed less attention in the future), made it obvious that I didn't really want to do other things (which I then just crossed of the list, and generally made me aware of what I was capable of doing without strain (which reduced the number of things going on the list)."
November 22, 2018 at 1:21 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Alan,
You mention your Two List system, I've tried to search but couldnt find it. Could you explain more?
thanks
You mention your Two List system, I've tried to search but couldnt find it. Could you explain more?
thanks
November 24, 2018 at 12:07 |
Nanda
Nanda
With the caveat that I have not been doing this for long enough to promise it will even continue working for me ( it’s only been a week):
1. Take your existing list and name it Later.
2. Make a new list, call it Doing. Add one task called Check 'Later List'. This task must always be here.
3. Operate the Doing list *according to the rules of Simple Scanning* except:
A. When you add a new item, put it in Later. (Unless you plan to do it very soon.)
B. When you work an item, put it back in Doing. (Unless you plan on not doing it again anytime soon.)
C. If you encounter an item that stands out as not belonging here anymore, delete or move to Later.
D. At the end of the list, cycle to the top.
E. Whenever you select the 'Check Later' task, do one pass of the Later list, all according to the rules 3A-D. In particular, tasks you work on move to Doing if unfinished. Then move 'Check Later' to the end.
Naturally when you start out, your only active task is 'Check Later', so do that once after which you will have a handful of tasks to focus on.
1. Take your existing list and name it Later.
2. Make a new list, call it Doing. Add one task called Check 'Later List'. This task must always be here.
3. Operate the Doing list *according to the rules of Simple Scanning* except:
A. When you add a new item, put it in Later. (Unless you plan to do it very soon.)
B. When you work an item, put it back in Doing. (Unless you plan on not doing it again anytime soon.)
C. If you encounter an item that stands out as not belonging here anymore, delete or move to Later.
D. At the end of the list, cycle to the top.
E. Whenever you select the 'Check Later' task, do one pass of the Later list, all according to the rules 3A-D. In particular, tasks you work on move to Doing if unfinished. Then move 'Check Later' to the end.
Naturally when you start out, your only active task is 'Check Later', so do that once after which you will have a handful of tasks to focus on.
November 24, 2018 at 13:27 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Mark, in another thread you wrote:
<< it's important with this system that the list isn't allowed to get too long. I find 100 tasks to be the realistic upper limit >>
http://markforster.squarespace.com/forum/post/2726562#post2727422
I think I've asked you this before, but could you talk a little more about HOW you prevent the list from getting too long? I'm wondering how it really works for you in practice. What starts to make you notice that the list is getting too long? What kind of corrective action to you take? Is it just a matter of "instructing your intuition" to keep the list shorter?
Your comments in that thread were in the context of "Another Simple and Effective Method" http://markforster.squarespace.com/blog/2013/5/20/another-simple-and-effective-method.html
Do you use some methods for ASEM and other methods for other Long List systems?
Thanks!
<< it's important with this system that the list isn't allowed to get too long. I find 100 tasks to be the realistic upper limit >>
http://markforster.squarespace.com/forum/post/2726562#post2727422
I think I've asked you this before, but could you talk a little more about HOW you prevent the list from getting too long? I'm wondering how it really works for you in practice. What starts to make you notice that the list is getting too long? What kind of corrective action to you take? Is it just a matter of "instructing your intuition" to keep the list shorter?
Your comments in that thread were in the context of "Another Simple and Effective Method" http://markforster.squarespace.com/blog/2013/5/20/another-simple-and-effective-method.html
Do you use some methods for ASEM and other methods for other Long List systems?
Thanks!
November 28, 2018 at 15:42 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Seraphim:
Basically whatever the system (except "no list" systems) I have a task "Weed List" which I do about once a day. In the specific case of ASEM I also count the number of tasks on the list so that I know how many to weed in order to keep the size of the list right.
I weed by a sort of reverse standing-out, in which tasks stand out as being ready for weeding.
Basically whatever the system (except "no list" systems) I have a task "Weed List" which I do about once a day. In the specific case of ASEM I also count the number of tasks on the list so that I know how many to weed in order to keep the size of the list right.
I weed by a sort of reverse standing-out, in which tasks stand out as being ready for weeding.
November 28, 2018 at 16:45 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
I think I can finally articulate why I’ve never been able to use a task like “Weed list” effectively.
Effective weeding requires a strong intuition for the list as a whole, every bit as much as effective “standing out”.
When the list is short enough, I am always weeding and deleting as I go, and the “Weed List” task helps keep things tidy and relevant. It works just fine.
But when I hit a busy period, the list quickly grows and I suddenly find myself unable to cycle fast enough. When I try to do the weeding, yes I can delete many things, but it’s never enough to bring the list down to a manageable size. There are too many tasks that give me a sense of “warning - I am not ready to be deleted”.
So it seems that when the list crosses that threshold, it’s just really difficult to reverse the situation and get it back down to size.
So I clear the decks, start with a new page or even a new list, re-establish focus, and go from there. Once the new focus is established, it’s much easier to go back to the previous oversized list and delete swaths of tasks and see if there is anything still worth pursuing. The new focus gives me the context I need in order to see what is ready to delete.
Mark, do you have any thoughts on this? Maybe there is something different about the way you are doing it that makes it more effective.
Effective weeding requires a strong intuition for the list as a whole, every bit as much as effective “standing out”.
When the list is short enough, I am always weeding and deleting as I go, and the “Weed List” task helps keep things tidy and relevant. It works just fine.
But when I hit a busy period, the list quickly grows and I suddenly find myself unable to cycle fast enough. When I try to do the weeding, yes I can delete many things, but it’s never enough to bring the list down to a manageable size. There are too many tasks that give me a sense of “warning - I am not ready to be deleted”.
So it seems that when the list crosses that threshold, it’s just really difficult to reverse the situation and get it back down to size.
So I clear the decks, start with a new page or even a new list, re-establish focus, and go from there. Once the new focus is established, it’s much easier to go back to the previous oversized list and delete swaths of tasks and see if there is anything still worth pursuing. The new focus gives me the context I need in order to see what is ready to delete.
Mark, do you have any thoughts on this? Maybe there is something different about the way you are doing it that makes it more effective.
January 6, 2019 at 16:04 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Hi Seraphim,
I have had similar issues with weeding. My solution has been to make an appointment on my calendar on Mondays to weed the previous week's pages. This has worked well and I have been consistent in doing it.
Since I started this practice with an existing list that stretched beyond one week, the list is not fully weeded, but when I get back to those pages (I generally use AF@ revised) I tend to weed as I rise up through the older pages.
I have had similar issues with weeding. My solution has been to make an appointment on my calendar on Mondays to weed the previous week's pages. This has worked well and I have been consistent in doing it.
Since I started this practice with an existing list that stretched beyond one week, the list is not fully weeded, but when I get back to those pages (I generally use AF@ revised) I tend to weed as I rise up through the older pages.
January 6, 2019 at 20:02 |
vegheadjones
vegheadjones
Weeding's not a problem if the list has been consistently dated.
"Oh wow these items are almost a month old in my list? Jeez, they won't be done anytime soon, I guess, I'm gonna cross them out."
Also, dividing the list into days lets me remember the context I was in when I wrote in those tasks, makes it easier to judge whether they should remain or not.
"Oh wow these items are almost a month old in my list? Jeez, they won't be done anytime soon, I guess, I'm gonna cross them out."
Also, dividing the list into days lets me remember the context I was in when I wrote in those tasks, makes it easier to judge whether they should remain or not.
January 6, 2019 at 22:32 |
nuntym
nuntym
vegheadjones - That sounds like a good idea, I will have to give it a try.
January 7, 2019 at 2:15 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
nuntym - the age of the task might be a good clue, but it isn’t enough for me to delete. Sometimes there’s a good reason these older tasks are hanging around.
January 7, 2019 at 2:17 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
If not delete, perhaps shift it to another system so you aren't constantly looking at this thing you clearly aren't ready to do?
January 7, 2019 at 3:52 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Alan - That's actually one of the things I was trying to achieve with my new experiment. If something isn't a current focus area, it recedes into the background very quickly.
http://markforster.squarespace.com/forum/post/2730943
http://markforster.squarespace.com/forum/post/2730943
January 7, 2019 at 4:36 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
I find pages with just a few tasks hanging on to annoying. Every so often, I consolidate them. Some get moved to Someday/Maybe, others go on the calendar to be reconsidered in the future. I used to keep the original date of writing, but found I usually know how long something has been hanging around. (If I don't know, that's a good sign it doesn't belong on my active list.)
This reminds me of AF1. If something wasn't going to get done soon, it was deleted (or highlighted as not done and to be reconsidered eventually), deferred (to a tickler system), delegated, or otherwise dealt with. Worst case, after 30ish cycles, the page was no longer active.
This reminds me of AF1. If something wasn't going to get done soon, it was deleted (or highlighted as not done and to be reconsidered eventually), deferred (to a tickler system), delegated, or otherwise dealt with. Worst case, after 30ish cycles, the page was no longer active.
January 9, 2019 at 17:42 |
Cricket
Cricket
I like such pages because it's incentive to finish them off when it's only a couple remaining.
January 10, 2019 at 4:31 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Regarding intuition for the whole - Mark says this in his first post on a No-List system (SMEMA):
<< The method can be used with all one’s usual lists, reminders, etc, but I myself have found it works best for me the less I consult them. This is because every time I do two tasks the method requires me to think carefully about what I should do next. This seems to result in a training effect on my mind enabling it to grasp the totality of what I have to do. This ability is inhibited by relying on lists and reminders. >>
http://markforster.squarespace.com/blog/2013/3/7/the-simplest-and-most-effective-method-of-all.html
<< The method can be used with all one’s usual lists, reminders, etc, but I myself have found it works best for me the less I consult them. This is because every time I do two tasks the method requires me to think carefully about what I should do next. This seems to result in a training effect on my mind enabling it to grasp the totality of what I have to do. This ability is inhibited by relying on lists and reminders. >>
http://markforster.squarespace.com/blog/2013/3/7/the-simplest-and-most-effective-method-of-all.html
January 15, 2019 at 5:38 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Alan,
How is your Doing/Later two-list method going?
"1. Take your existing list and name it Later.
"2. Make a new list, call it Doing. Add one task called Check 'Later List'..."
How is your Doing/Later two-list method going?
"1. Take your existing list and name it Later.
"2. Make a new list, call it Doing. Add one task called Check 'Later List'..."
January 18, 2019 at 19:09 |
Bernie
Bernie
It was going fine but I am currently testing Seraphim’s concept of a daily no-list that you keep arou d. In many ways its very similar. If I decide ths nolist isn't working for me I will go back to that.
January 18, 2019 at 21:27 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
This got me thinking about the No-List systems. I found I had an even stronger intuitive engagement with my work when using them. But how can this be? No-List specifically avoids trying to capture one's whole context. But it almost always steered me to the right focus areas anyway. I felt even *more* engaged with my whole context, and focusing on the right things.
Mark's premise behind No-List, if I remember right, was that you already intuitively know all the reasons and overall motivations for your work. Just trust that intuition. Your intuition will prompt you to go in the right direction. If you forget something, it will come back by itself if it's really needed. And in general, I found this all to be true. It didn't always work that way -- sometimes I'd find myself wandering a little aimlessly. More often, I'd find myself exhausted -- not just tired, but emotionally exhausted. No-List always took me on such a wild ride through the most important work and delivered amazing results -- but it was somewhat relentless in its demands.
So it seems that the No-List systems also engage with your overall context, but in a very different way. It assumes you already *know* your overall context, at least intuitively, and drives you to go deep in engaging with it.
It's also very interesting to compare the dynamics of how these two approaches can start to lose their effectiveness (for me, at least).
For the Long List (scan/stand-out) methods, it works great until something prevents you from cycling through the list enough (not enough discretionary time; too much incoming work; etc.)
For No-List, for me it was the relentlessness of it -- I would just get so exhausted, I could no longer intuit anything, and would start processing administrivia, or wander aimlessly.
This is very interesting, because Long List and No-List lose their effectiveness in different ways, but in both cases, it's by losing touch with one's overall context. And for me, the solution in both cases is to break away, allow myself to recover and think and reflect, and let the natural focus emerge again out of the whole context. Also in both cases, I have to make a *forceful* break from the system, from the routine I've been following, which has started to create a lot of resistance itself.
I am not criticizing any of the systems. I'm just recording my observations of how they play out for me, and noticing these patterns, and pondering how to take advantage of them.