Discussion Forum > To list or not to list
I've been using time surfing since the beginning of lent and I feel completely liberated from stress. It is also the longest length of time I have ever used one system (I am an original AF1 user from way back in '08 as well). And I was one of the ones who seemed to have the most difficulty with a no list system when I first encountered it. There is something about intuition in the time surfing method that is and has been, completely reliable. My vote right now is no list.
June 29, 2019 at 3:24 |
Paul MacNeil
Paul MacNeil
Paul MacNeil:
I'm not familiar with the details of time surfing, but it sounds from the reviews that it might be similar to my concept of the Resistance Principle, as described in my first book "Get Everything Done". That is an effective way of directly accessing one's intuition, and one which I fall back on often to this day.
Does time surfing have a similar approach?
I'm not familiar with the details of time surfing, but it sounds from the reviews that it might be similar to my concept of the Resistance Principle, as described in my first book "Get Everything Done". That is an effective way of directly accessing one's intuition, and one which I fall back on often to this day.
Does time surfing have a similar approach?
June 29, 2019 at 10:22 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Suppose Cameron, you only listed those things you worry about forgetting. And follow your Time Surfing, whatever that's about. Where will that leave you?
June 29, 2019 at 15:03 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Cameron:
<< Not using any list at all... helps me to be calm, but I'm anxious I'll forget things, especially critical things at work. >>
Some form of reminder system would seem to be the answer. The most low-tech is the tickler file, where you can put reminders together with supporting papers.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cathedral-Expanding-manilla-multi-coloured/dp/B00200K0CQ/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=tickler+file&qid=1561819911&s=gateway&sr=8-5
<< Not using any list at all... helps me to be calm, but I'm anxious I'll forget things, especially critical things at work. >>
Some form of reminder system would seem to be the answer. The most low-tech is the tickler file, where you can put reminders together with supporting papers.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cathedral-Expanding-manilla-multi-coloured/dp/B00200K0CQ/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=tickler+file&qid=1561819911&s=gateway&sr=8-5
June 29, 2019 at 15:52 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Paul, if I remember right, you were the one that inspired me to read Time Surfing and give it a try. The system worked quite well for a few weeks. I felt less stressed too, but also feared forgetting really important stuff.
Mark, the book has seven main instruction to Time Surfing, each on building on the next:
1. Do one thing at a time, and finish what you're doing
2. Be aware of what you're doing and accept it.
3. Create breathers between activities
4. Give your full attention to drop-ins (interruptions), creating a relationship with everything you do.
5. Become aware of "gnawing rats" and transform them into "what sheep".
6. Observe background program.
7. Use your intuition when choosing what to do.
I think instructions 5 and 6 are in the same vein as the Resistance Principle. He writes "Befriend your "gnawing rats" - the tasks that eat away at you under the surface, demanding your attention but not receiving it. Whatever it is that you're putting off, whether it's cleaning out the shed or filling in your tax return, you should go and visit it." In his system, you still can use a calendar for appointments.
In rereading portions of the book, he does say that you can use a list at the beginning if you are worried you might forget something, and look at the list as often as I'd like. Perhaps one of the issues I have with long lists is when I use them to decide what to do next. I just feel kind of frazzled and distracted. Simple scanning with a long list was really pretty good for me, but I still felt diffused on completing the large tasks, no matter how much I tried to focus on them. It just wasn't as intuitive as simply doing what was most gnawing at me.
I also reread parts of The Checklist Manifesto. He mentions that checklists can be used in one of two ways: as a sequential series of steps to do next, or as a reminders to scan to make sure you didn't forget anything after the fact. Maybe if I still use a list with doing Time Surfing, I can use it sparingly, looking at it occasionally to just make sure I didn't forget anything.
Not sure yet what route I'll choose yet, or how many times I'll switch. One thing I do know-- my intuition is telling me it's time to go to bed.
Mark, the book has seven main instruction to Time Surfing, each on building on the next:
1. Do one thing at a time, and finish what you're doing
2. Be aware of what you're doing and accept it.
3. Create breathers between activities
4. Give your full attention to drop-ins (interruptions), creating a relationship with everything you do.
5. Become aware of "gnawing rats" and transform them into "what sheep".
6. Observe background program.
7. Use your intuition when choosing what to do.
I think instructions 5 and 6 are in the same vein as the Resistance Principle. He writes "Befriend your "gnawing rats" - the tasks that eat away at you under the surface, demanding your attention but not receiving it. Whatever it is that you're putting off, whether it's cleaning out the shed or filling in your tax return, you should go and visit it." In his system, you still can use a calendar for appointments.
In rereading portions of the book, he does say that you can use a list at the beginning if you are worried you might forget something, and look at the list as often as I'd like. Perhaps one of the issues I have with long lists is when I use them to decide what to do next. I just feel kind of frazzled and distracted. Simple scanning with a long list was really pretty good for me, but I still felt diffused on completing the large tasks, no matter how much I tried to focus on them. It just wasn't as intuitive as simply doing what was most gnawing at me.
I also reread parts of The Checklist Manifesto. He mentions that checklists can be used in one of two ways: as a sequential series of steps to do next, or as a reminders to scan to make sure you didn't forget anything after the fact. Maybe if I still use a list with doing Time Surfing, I can use it sparingly, looking at it occasionally to just make sure I didn't forget anything.
Not sure yet what route I'll choose yet, or how many times I'll switch. One thing I do know-- my intuition is telling me it's time to go to bed.
June 30, 2019 at 5:26 |
Cameron
Cameron
Hi Cameron,
I've been pondering what you said about Long Lists inducing stress and impatience. I've had that experience, too, but I'm wondering if the cause is the same for you, or different. For me, it's been like this:
-- takes too long to cycle through all the items
-- all the items remind me how much I am not getting done
-- it creates a sense of overwhelm and being behind
-- it feels like a big backlog
It sounds like you are saying that when you set aside the list, or toss it, all those feelings go away (at least temporarily, until the anxiety about what you might be forgetting emerges). I've had that experience, too, sometimes by switching to a different Long List system, and sometimes by switching to a No-List system.
And the fact that those symptoms disappear so easily must mean one of two things:
-- the feeling that I have an overwhelming backlog is an illusion created by the way I was managing the list
-- the feeling that I have a backlog is real, and tossing the list just hides the problem
For me, I found the reality is a combination of these two things.
No-List gave me a partial solution. It made me realize that I already know nearly everything I need to do. I can sit down and list it out right now. If I happen to forget a few things, it is very likely to come up by itself within a few hours, or at most a day or two. Either I will remember it in the course of work, or someone else will remind me. This is true because I am engaged in my work, my mind is occupied with it most of my waking life, and all it takes is for me to sit down and get engaged with it. No-List is just a tool to help get it on paper to make it visible so I can work on it.
There are lots of No-List methods. I think the best of Mark's is Next Hour of Your Life - http://markforster.squarespace.com/blog/2016/7/2/the-next-hour-of-your-life.html My own favorite No-List method was somewhat more free-form - what take a scrap of paper or whiteboard, write out everything on my mind, circle a handful of things I want to focus on, scratch out everything else, and go work on those. Repeat several times through the course of the day.
Like I said, this taught me that the overwhelming backlog is mostly an illusion. Most of that stuff is a lot of opportunities that can wait, or a lot of "other people's priorities" that are not the main thing that I really need to be focusing on. No-List helped me engage at a more primal and intuitive level to sort out what *I* really need to be focusing on, the stuff that only I can do.
But No-List has some problems. If you actually are overcommitted, it can hide that. I got burned out doing No-List, partly from chronic overcommitment, and partly from the constant drive, of being super-engaged all the time. I love the constant flow but it really can be draining. The other main problem is No-List doesn't remind you of anything; most stuff does up by itself in the course of work, but that last 10-20% can be important.
So I think No-List requires some kind of "authorized project list" to manage your commitments, and some kind of reminder or tickler system so you don't forget important things. And if you are overcommitted, even a little, you can start to spend a lot more time devising methods to manage the project list and the reminders than actually getting stuff done. Then it becomes neither a No List system, nor a Long List system, but just a disoriented mess and frustration.
In the end, my own solution to this is the Serial No-List system, which seems to resolve all these dilemmas. It keeps the freshness and intuitiveness of No-List. It keeps the orderliness and the memory of Long List. But it doesn't create the pressure or sense of debt / backlog that I experienced with other Long List systems.
Back in February/March, when Avrum first brought up the Time Surfing book, I read through it, and found it interesting, but found that Serial No-List was giving me all the same benefits. I guess part of the reason is that I don't live 100% from my list, but turn to it when I feel I need help sorting things out and getting my day in order. When there is a lot going on, and there's a lot of stress, I rely pretty heavily on the notebook and list, it really helps to get all my thoughts and tasks on paper, and sort through things there. Other days, it's better to step away for a bit and just observe and reflect and take things as they come, at least for an hour or so. If one has this attitude, then Serial No-List can be a great supplement and support to letting one's intuition guide oneself through all the tasks of the day.
Your mileage may vary, of course. Perhaps it would be best to take one or two of the ideas suggested so far by everyone, and try them for a week and see how they go. Compare and contrast and see what works for you. Sometimes it can be very surprising how these things work out in practice.
I've been pondering what you said about Long Lists inducing stress and impatience. I've had that experience, too, but I'm wondering if the cause is the same for you, or different. For me, it's been like this:
-- takes too long to cycle through all the items
-- all the items remind me how much I am not getting done
-- it creates a sense of overwhelm and being behind
-- it feels like a big backlog
It sounds like you are saying that when you set aside the list, or toss it, all those feelings go away (at least temporarily, until the anxiety about what you might be forgetting emerges). I've had that experience, too, sometimes by switching to a different Long List system, and sometimes by switching to a No-List system.
And the fact that those symptoms disappear so easily must mean one of two things:
-- the feeling that I have an overwhelming backlog is an illusion created by the way I was managing the list
-- the feeling that I have a backlog is real, and tossing the list just hides the problem
For me, I found the reality is a combination of these two things.
No-List gave me a partial solution. It made me realize that I already know nearly everything I need to do. I can sit down and list it out right now. If I happen to forget a few things, it is very likely to come up by itself within a few hours, or at most a day or two. Either I will remember it in the course of work, or someone else will remind me. This is true because I am engaged in my work, my mind is occupied with it most of my waking life, and all it takes is for me to sit down and get engaged with it. No-List is just a tool to help get it on paper to make it visible so I can work on it.
There are lots of No-List methods. I think the best of Mark's is Next Hour of Your Life - http://markforster.squarespace.com/blog/2016/7/2/the-next-hour-of-your-life.html My own favorite No-List method was somewhat more free-form - what take a scrap of paper or whiteboard, write out everything on my mind, circle a handful of things I want to focus on, scratch out everything else, and go work on those. Repeat several times through the course of the day.
Like I said, this taught me that the overwhelming backlog is mostly an illusion. Most of that stuff is a lot of opportunities that can wait, or a lot of "other people's priorities" that are not the main thing that I really need to be focusing on. No-List helped me engage at a more primal and intuitive level to sort out what *I* really need to be focusing on, the stuff that only I can do.
But No-List has some problems. If you actually are overcommitted, it can hide that. I got burned out doing No-List, partly from chronic overcommitment, and partly from the constant drive, of being super-engaged all the time. I love the constant flow but it really can be draining. The other main problem is No-List doesn't remind you of anything; most stuff does up by itself in the course of work, but that last 10-20% can be important.
So I think No-List requires some kind of "authorized project list" to manage your commitments, and some kind of reminder or tickler system so you don't forget important things. And if you are overcommitted, even a little, you can start to spend a lot more time devising methods to manage the project list and the reminders than actually getting stuff done. Then it becomes neither a No List system, nor a Long List system, but just a disoriented mess and frustration.
In the end, my own solution to this is the Serial No-List system, which seems to resolve all these dilemmas. It keeps the freshness and intuitiveness of No-List. It keeps the orderliness and the memory of Long List. But it doesn't create the pressure or sense of debt / backlog that I experienced with other Long List systems.
Back in February/March, when Avrum first brought up the Time Surfing book, I read through it, and found it interesting, but found that Serial No-List was giving me all the same benefits. I guess part of the reason is that I don't live 100% from my list, but turn to it when I feel I need help sorting things out and getting my day in order. When there is a lot going on, and there's a lot of stress, I rely pretty heavily on the notebook and list, it really helps to get all my thoughts and tasks on paper, and sort through things there. Other days, it's better to step away for a bit and just observe and reflect and take things as they come, at least for an hour or so. If one has this attitude, then Serial No-List can be a great supplement and support to letting one's intuition guide oneself through all the tasks of the day.
Your mileage may vary, of course. Perhaps it would be best to take one or two of the ideas suggested so far by everyone, and try them for a week and see how they go. Compare and contrast and see what works for you. Sometimes it can be very surprising how these things work out in practice.
June 30, 2019 at 5:59 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
What about a list for each time frame, so you only have to look at that except when planning?
When planning my week, I assign tasks to each day, making sure every role gets enough attention and I didn't overload any day. Once that's done, I only have to look at today's list, and maybe day lists from earlier in the week that I didn't finish. (I don't usually copy mosquito tasks to the day, but I do say Tuesday I will do an hour of mosquito tasks.)
It's the same when planning my month. I assign things to each week, and only have to look at the month list if there were details I didn't copy to the lower level.
My master list has been a combination of all the other lists.
I find that's nice balance between short doable lists, keep me on track for my goals, and the overwhelming master lists.
(Okay, I do look ahead a bit and replan for the weather, but our forecasts are good enough that that's only every few days.)
When planning my week, I assign tasks to each day, making sure every role gets enough attention and I didn't overload any day. Once that's done, I only have to look at today's list, and maybe day lists from earlier in the week that I didn't finish. (I don't usually copy mosquito tasks to the day, but I do say Tuesday I will do an hour of mosquito tasks.)
It's the same when planning my month. I assign things to each week, and only have to look at the month list if there were details I didn't copy to the lower level.
My master list has been a combination of all the other lists.
I find that's nice balance between short doable lists, keep me on track for my goals, and the overwhelming master lists.
(Okay, I do look ahead a bit and replan for the weather, but our forecasts are good enough that that's only every few days.)
July 1, 2019 at 16:07 |
Cricket
Cricket
Hi,
I've come up with a compromise of sorts. I went back to following the Michael Linnenberger MYN system (I have problem with links so google if interested in more info then what I put below. Basically it is an outlook task list with start dates and priorities. Nothing is seen that has a start date tomorrow and beyond, and items that are low priority are anything you can safely review/do/delete next week. High priority are the small number of tasks that need to be done today.
After I do the few high priority tasks (or need a break from them) I print out the list and work it with the bounce methodology., updating the outlook list on the computer as I go or at the end of the day. New items get entered in the computer for tomorrow or written on the paper or added to Outlook and the list reprinted.
I am finding this to be the best of all possible lists, it is shortish, relevant, easy to fid linked info and by printing it out, easy to process using Mark's "standing out" techniques.
I've come up with a compromise of sorts. I went back to following the Michael Linnenberger MYN system (I have problem with links so google if interested in more info then what I put below. Basically it is an outlook task list with start dates and priorities. Nothing is seen that has a start date tomorrow and beyond, and items that are low priority are anything you can safely review/do/delete next week. High priority are the small number of tasks that need to be done today.
After I do the few high priority tasks (or need a break from them) I print out the list and work it with the bounce methodology., updating the outlook list on the computer as I go or at the end of the day. New items get entered in the computer for tomorrow or written on the paper or added to Outlook and the list reprinted.
I am finding this to be the best of all possible lists, it is shortish, relevant, easy to fid linked info and by printing it out, easy to process using Mark's "standing out" techniques.
July 1, 2019 at 21:42 |
vegheadjones
vegheadjones
1 Minute Todo List is a free PDF.
https://www.michaellinenberger.com/1MTDvsMYN.html
Master your Workday Now (MYN), which I have, starts with the free material and expands it to farther in the future, and to include a systematic review of Someday/Maybe. I vaguely remember monthly folders. You put a note in as distant a folder as possible (keeping in mind that a 2-week project takes all month during vacation season). It also has limits for how much can be in each folder. Very, very vague memory here, but 5 for today and 15 for this week sound right.
The 2010 edition of MYN says, "The same methodology that is used in my number one best-selling Outlook book called Total Workday Control using Microsoft Outlook, is used here, but presented without Outlook; in this book I show you how to do those techniques using merely a type of paper to do list that you can carry with you."
It's a good book if you struggle with too much to do this week. The system keeps things out of sight until needed, and reliably reminds you when to activate things (assuming you set the date right in the first place). The downside is it still allows you to over-fill the week after next.
https://www.michaellinenberger.com/1MTDvsMYN.html
Master your Workday Now (MYN), which I have, starts with the free material and expands it to farther in the future, and to include a systematic review of Someday/Maybe. I vaguely remember monthly folders. You put a note in as distant a folder as possible (keeping in mind that a 2-week project takes all month during vacation season). It also has limits for how much can be in each folder. Very, very vague memory here, but 5 for today and 15 for this week sound right.
The 2010 edition of MYN says, "The same methodology that is used in my number one best-selling Outlook book called Total Workday Control using Microsoft Outlook, is used here, but presented without Outlook; in this book I show you how to do those techniques using merely a type of paper to do list that you can carry with you."
It's a good book if you struggle with too much to do this week. The system keeps things out of sight until needed, and reliably reminds you when to activate things (assuming you set the date right in the first place). The downside is it still allows you to over-fill the week after next.
July 2, 2019 at 0:55 |
Cricket
Cricket
Productive Flourishing's Momentum system is good. Available as bound book or PDF.
https://www.productiveflourishing.com/momentum-planners/
They also offer free pages for daily, weekly and monthly, but not quarterly and yearly.
https://www.productiveflourishing.com/free-planners/
That's what my system is closest to.
https://www.productiveflourishing.com/momentum-planners/
They also offer free pages for daily, weekly and monthly, but not quarterly and yearly.
https://www.productiveflourishing.com/free-planners/
That's what my system is closest to.
July 2, 2019 at 0:58 |
Cricket
Cricket
Hi Cricket,
I guess I am using the Total Workday Control, because I am using Outlook per his book. I love the "someday/maybe" deferral.
One thing he says is to limit tasks to about 30, but since I process the today's list with the bounce I don't worry too much about that.
I guess I am using the Total Workday Control, because I am using Outlook per his book. I love the "someday/maybe" deferral.
One thing he says is to limit tasks to about 30, but since I process the today's list with the bounce I don't worry too much about that.
July 2, 2019 at 13:01 |
vegheadjones
vegheadjones
Hi vegheadjones,
I find limiting number of tasks is more frustrating than helpful. I need flexibility expand and summarize details depending on the project and what else is happening.
I find limiting number of tasks is more frustrating than helpful. I need flexibility expand and summarize details depending on the project and what else is happening.
July 2, 2019 at 19:43 |
Cricket
Cricket
Thanks for the responses. I recently acquired a newborn and a cold, so I've been a little AWOL.
Alan, that may be an option, to only write down those things that are critical to remember, or that I worry about forgetting. I've been ruminating on this the past week, and it may be a real solution. I think I will eventually land on some form of list, long or short, but my relationship with that list is probably what will change.
Mark, I've never felt drawn to a tickler file to space out reminders of projects periodically. I'd rather just keep them on a list and review them when I feel the need to. Sometimes I put a reminder in a calendar to start a project, but only when it makes sense to do it like that (like budgeting at the start of each month, or changing my furnace filter once a quarter.)
Seraphim, I think we've experienced similar things. Cycle time takes a while on long lists, yes. It feels more like a to-do list than anything else. It feels like a big backlog. All those things. I am also ruminating on having an authorized projects list. If Time Surfing allows for appointments to be listed on a calendar (that is, commitments made at a specific time) then it makes sense that it ought to allow for commitments made without a specific time attached. I've never tried only listing those things down that I've explicitly committed to. It may be an interesting solution also. I've been reading about your serial no-list over the past few months. It may work well, but I've haven't been able to dive into it quite yet. You bring up a good point about your method giving you the same benefits as Time Surfing. Which makes me think...
I've spent some time observing myself the past week. I've have learned a couple of things. List or no list, the most important principle to remember (for me) in time management is intuition. Sometimes I can use lists to guide to make "the optimal" choice from moment to moment. But if I work strictly from the lists, going from item to item, I lose a sense of intuition. If I can use the list as an extension of my mind though, to just remind of things that my intuition may not be bringing up, then lists can be helpful. But if I use them as taskmasters, or to-do lists, then procrastination starts to overpower my intuition and will-power. I feel like some serious research could be performed (and maybe has) specific to lists, productivity, and a persons mental state and stress-level.
I tried last week using a long-list, but got sick on Tuesday and kind of spent the week watching YouTube videos and doing nothing much else but resting. (We had family around to help with the newborn, lest you think me a bad father/husband :) But my lists sure didn't motivate me at all to do anything else besides waste my time.
This week I think I'm going to give time-surfing a try again. Rather than have a project, task, or action list, I'm going to throw everything into "Reference", maybe with the title "the list". I'm going to see if labeling all of this as reference material--something that I may derive some value from when referring to it--then perhaps I can still glean the benefits of making some shorter lists without feeling like I'm driven by them. I'll let you know in a week or two how it went.
Alan, that may be an option, to only write down those things that are critical to remember, or that I worry about forgetting. I've been ruminating on this the past week, and it may be a real solution. I think I will eventually land on some form of list, long or short, but my relationship with that list is probably what will change.
Mark, I've never felt drawn to a tickler file to space out reminders of projects periodically. I'd rather just keep them on a list and review them when I feel the need to. Sometimes I put a reminder in a calendar to start a project, but only when it makes sense to do it like that (like budgeting at the start of each month, or changing my furnace filter once a quarter.)
Seraphim, I think we've experienced similar things. Cycle time takes a while on long lists, yes. It feels more like a to-do list than anything else. It feels like a big backlog. All those things. I am also ruminating on having an authorized projects list. If Time Surfing allows for appointments to be listed on a calendar (that is, commitments made at a specific time) then it makes sense that it ought to allow for commitments made without a specific time attached. I've never tried only listing those things down that I've explicitly committed to. It may be an interesting solution also. I've been reading about your serial no-list over the past few months. It may work well, but I've haven't been able to dive into it quite yet. You bring up a good point about your method giving you the same benefits as Time Surfing. Which makes me think...
I've spent some time observing myself the past week. I've have learned a couple of things. List or no list, the most important principle to remember (for me) in time management is intuition. Sometimes I can use lists to guide to make "the optimal" choice from moment to moment. But if I work strictly from the lists, going from item to item, I lose a sense of intuition. If I can use the list as an extension of my mind though, to just remind of things that my intuition may not be bringing up, then lists can be helpful. But if I use them as taskmasters, or to-do lists, then procrastination starts to overpower my intuition and will-power. I feel like some serious research could be performed (and maybe has) specific to lists, productivity, and a persons mental state and stress-level.
I tried last week using a long-list, but got sick on Tuesday and kind of spent the week watching YouTube videos and doing nothing much else but resting. (We had family around to help with the newborn, lest you think me a bad father/husband :) But my lists sure didn't motivate me at all to do anything else besides waste my time.
This week I think I'm going to give time-surfing a try again. Rather than have a project, task, or action list, I'm going to throw everything into "Reference", maybe with the title "the list". I'm going to see if labeling all of this as reference material--something that I may derive some value from when referring to it--then perhaps I can still glean the benefits of making some shorter lists without feeling like I'm driven by them. I'll let you know in a week or two how it went.
July 7, 2019 at 20:45 |
Cameron
Cameron
Congrats on the baby!
July 8, 2019 at 20:46 |
Cricket
Cricket
Cameron --
Congratulations on the newborn!!!!!
<< Alan, that may be an option, to only write down those things that are critical to remember, or that I worry about forgetting. I've been ruminating on this the past week, and it may be a real solution. I think I will eventually land on some form of list, long or short, but my relationship with that list is probably what will change. >>
Maybe it could be helpful to try one of the simplest No-List Systems -- a pack of sticky notes in the back pocket!
I am not being facetious! This can be a very effective No-List System and can be a great supplement to a basic no-list-at-all-intuition-only method. And if you find it's too chaotic, it's a simple step from there just to keep a pocket notebook and keep the same lightweight attitude about it. The pocket notebook keeps things a bit more organized. This approach is basically what got me started with Serial No-List and it's been great. No need to make it any more complicated than that.
<< But if I work strictly from the lists, going from item to item, I lose a sense of intuition. If I can use the list as an extension of my mind though, to just remind of things that my intuition may not be bringing up, then lists can be helpful. But if I use them as taskmasters, or to-do lists, then procrastination starts to overpower my intuition and will-power. I feel like some serious research could be performed (and maybe has) specific to lists, productivity, and a persons mental state and stress-level. >>
I am not sure what creates the tendency, once something is put onto a list, for the list to turn into a kind of taskmaster. With me, it happens more with my whole environment - not just my list. I just need to get away from my calendar and my computer and my phone and my desk and my cubicle and go for a walk and be able to clear my head and THINK and look at the sky and get a sense of expansiveness and free-association and dump the stress and pressure.
But the list alone can sometimes be enough to create that sense of pressure and stress and -- what's the right word?
In any case, it can certainly get in the way of one's intuition.
That's one reason I made myself the rule of starting each day with Serial No-List with a blank page. I don't want to be biased or constricted by the stuff that's already on the list from the previous day. I want to start with the free, open expanse of a blank page, and let my intuition guide me. Most of the time, this is great! But when I am tired or sick and my intuition is drawing a blank, I can just turn the page and start with whatever momentum I had going the previous day.
Congratulations on the newborn!!!!!
<< Alan, that may be an option, to only write down those things that are critical to remember, or that I worry about forgetting. I've been ruminating on this the past week, and it may be a real solution. I think I will eventually land on some form of list, long or short, but my relationship with that list is probably what will change. >>
Maybe it could be helpful to try one of the simplest No-List Systems -- a pack of sticky notes in the back pocket!
I am not being facetious! This can be a very effective No-List System and can be a great supplement to a basic no-list-at-all-intuition-only method. And if you find it's too chaotic, it's a simple step from there just to keep a pocket notebook and keep the same lightweight attitude about it. The pocket notebook keeps things a bit more organized. This approach is basically what got me started with Serial No-List and it's been great. No need to make it any more complicated than that.
<< But if I work strictly from the lists, going from item to item, I lose a sense of intuition. If I can use the list as an extension of my mind though, to just remind of things that my intuition may not be bringing up, then lists can be helpful. But if I use them as taskmasters, or to-do lists, then procrastination starts to overpower my intuition and will-power. I feel like some serious research could be performed (and maybe has) specific to lists, productivity, and a persons mental state and stress-level. >>
I am not sure what creates the tendency, once something is put onto a list, for the list to turn into a kind of taskmaster. With me, it happens more with my whole environment - not just my list. I just need to get away from my calendar and my computer and my phone and my desk and my cubicle and go for a walk and be able to clear my head and THINK and look at the sky and get a sense of expansiveness and free-association and dump the stress and pressure.
But the list alone can sometimes be enough to create that sense of pressure and stress and -- what's the right word?
In any case, it can certainly get in the way of one's intuition.
That's one reason I made myself the rule of starting each day with Serial No-List with a blank page. I don't want to be biased or constricted by the stuff that's already on the list from the previous day. I want to start with the free, open expanse of a blank page, and let my intuition guide me. Most of the time, this is great! But when I am tired or sick and my intuition is drawing a blank, I can just turn the page and start with whatever momentum I had going the previous day.
July 10, 2019 at 2:11 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Cameron --
<< .... But my lists sure didn't motivate me at all to do anything else besides waste my time. >>
I was struck by this comment. I am not sure I've ever expected my lists to motivate me, or ever found myself motivated by them.
This caused me to ponder and reflect on what I find *does* motivate me. Generally I am motivated by the work itself. It pulls me in. And when I am not feeling pulled in -- when there is resistance or frustration or procrastination -- but feel that I "should" be working on something -- that's when I start "circling around" the work by looking over the lists or whatever.
To expand on this a bit --
It's easy to get the work to pull me in when I start with a blank page -- either with a blank No-List approach, or with Serial No-List -- because I am starting with the things that are already on my mind, the things I am already thinking about, I am already engaged with. I am just getting them on paper so I can see them more clearly, and as I get them on paper, it gives them momentum and more clarity, and I write a bit more, and that gives a bit MORE clarity, and then I review what I wrote, and then things start to stand out, and off I go. No resistance at all. It's actually hard to stop.
That "standing out" principle is really important. And when I am tired or frustrated and don't have any internal motivation, it's even more important to rely on that. The "standing out" principle is really, really important here. And it will help even when your intuition is weak for some reason, like when you are overwhelmed, or sick, or tired, but still need to get stuff done.
Mark has written more about the "standing out" principle in many places, e.g.:
http://markforster.squarespace.com/blog/2009/1/6/clarification-standing-out.html
http://markforster.squarespace.com/blog/2017/7/25/standing-out.html
Vegheadjones gave a great testimony about the power of it recently -- see here: http://markforster.squarespace.com/forum/post/2740208
<< .... But my lists sure didn't motivate me at all to do anything else besides waste my time. >>
I was struck by this comment. I am not sure I've ever expected my lists to motivate me, or ever found myself motivated by them.
This caused me to ponder and reflect on what I find *does* motivate me. Generally I am motivated by the work itself. It pulls me in. And when I am not feeling pulled in -- when there is resistance or frustration or procrastination -- but feel that I "should" be working on something -- that's when I start "circling around" the work by looking over the lists or whatever.
To expand on this a bit --
It's easy to get the work to pull me in when I start with a blank page -- either with a blank No-List approach, or with Serial No-List -- because I am starting with the things that are already on my mind, the things I am already thinking about, I am already engaged with. I am just getting them on paper so I can see them more clearly, and as I get them on paper, it gives them momentum and more clarity, and I write a bit more, and that gives a bit MORE clarity, and then I review what I wrote, and then things start to stand out, and off I go. No resistance at all. It's actually hard to stop.
That "standing out" principle is really important. And when I am tired or frustrated and don't have any internal motivation, it's even more important to rely on that. The "standing out" principle is really, really important here. And it will help even when your intuition is weak for some reason, like when you are overwhelmed, or sick, or tired, but still need to get stuff done.
Mark has written more about the "standing out" principle in many places, e.g.:
http://markforster.squarespace.com/blog/2009/1/6/clarification-standing-out.html
http://markforster.squarespace.com/blog/2017/7/25/standing-out.html
Vegheadjones gave a great testimony about the power of it recently -- see here: http://markforster.squarespace.com/forum/post/2740208
July 10, 2019 at 2:29 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Bounce baby bounce!
I've recently been doing Random as well, but I see that as a form of standing out. I land on a task, if it stands out I do it, if not I slide to the next one, and the next one if needed.
I find this really helps me engage on *one* task and not the whole list during that moment of decision.
I've recently been doing Random as well, but I see that as a form of standing out. I land on a task, if it stands out I do it, if not I slide to the next one, and the next one if needed.
I find this really helps me engage on *one* task and not the whole list during that moment of decision.
July 10, 2019 at 22:02 |
vegheadjones
vegheadjones
vegheadjones:
<< I land on a task, if it stands out I do it, if not I slide to the next one, and the next one if needed. >>
That's interesting. It sounds like a variation of the old decision procedure of choosing between two alternatives by tossing a coin and then sticking to the answer unless you decide to overrule it. It's a good way of finding out what you really want.
<< I land on a task, if it stands out I do it, if not I slide to the next one, and the next one if needed. >>
That's interesting. It sounds like a variation of the old decision procedure of choosing between two alternatives by tossing a coin and then sticking to the answer unless you decide to overrule it. It's a good way of finding out what you really want.
July 11, 2019 at 8:27 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Hi Mark,
That is exactly right. The world is deterministic until I exert my will...
That is exactly right. The world is deterministic until I exert my will...
July 11, 2019 at 12:41 |
vegheadjones
vegheadjones
Seraphim, perhaps it would have been more accurate to say that my lists cause resistance. Granted, I went back to GTD lists for a short time and was looking at actions list. For some strange reason, I just don't respond as well to a list of only smaller actions with a separate list of projects. I think it is because the actions list becomes stale or old quickly, and (if I don't use some sort of scanning algorithm, and just pick and choose with your "gut" or intuition as David Allen suggests). It's so weird, I have to keep referring to my projects list to get perspective on what I have to do. In my actions list I have a hard time seeing the forest through the trees. I really think I respond better to seeing a list of projects and tackling the one that is most on my mind through intuition.
So my plan to try Time Surfing this week hasn't been going so well. On Tuesday morning around 2 am I woke up super stressed out from work due to deadlines coming up. I had all of this stuff in my head that I needed to do and I just kept thinking about it and couldn't calm it down. It took me an hour to finally calm down and fall back asleep, but it was kind of a low point. The next day at work, I started engaging in what I call ruthless prioritization. It was to focus on the single most important and stressful component of a project and finish it. If I needed a break, I took a break by walking around or breathing or something else small, but not with other work. I needed to make significant progress quickly and couldn't spend any time doing anything else that didn't support that one deadline. It was more for my mental health than anything. I have been doing a Kanban type approach the past three days with pretty good success. I have all of my 100 or so projects (personal or professional) of varying sizes all in "Do". I have a "Doing" that limits my work in progress to three items. And a "Done" for after I complete it.
So far it has worked well. I don't know if it will be a long term solution for me. I suspect I'll probably move toward a different system...perhaps even in the next week (as that is my tendency). But this will be an interesting experiment for now.
Some of the benefits I've experienced is that it provides the ruthless prioritization that I need and focus. It seems to push me toward completion, which engenders what I can only call "anticrastination". I am motivated to crank through the project quickly, wrap it up. I've never been great as finishing work quickly, so this is a challenge for me. But something I think I need to work on as a professional. Anyway, yesterday and today I made some excellent progress on some really challenging analyses at work. I feel so much better today than I did a few night ago, and I'm just not sure if I would've gotten there with a long list.
You still have me interested in serial no-list. Maybe I'll make that my system I switch to in a week :)
I'll also have to keep bounce on there too for sometime down the road.
And thank you for the congratulation on the baby. Maybe that's part of the challenge...having a long list and having about 20 minutes of free time a night. For example, last night my wife was sick and I held the baby for 2.5 hours straight while she cried. Then again at 5 am to 6. She usually isn't this fussy, but we could not figure out why. Randomly (I think by divine inspiration) she decided to visit a website she rarely goes to, then clicked on an article that caught her eye, then on a link that drew her in, then read to the bottom and read about checking babies fingers for hairs that can wrap around and cut off circulation and cut into the skin. Weird. Sure enough, that was the problem. We never would've thought of that had it not been for that. Anyway, just experiences like this of holding an inconsolable baby for 3 hours makes you want to throw away any lists because it's really not that important anyway. But then, I gotta change that dang battery in my key fob or my car or else I won't be able to drive to work and provide for her. So...I guess getting "stuff" done is still essential to be able to keep the baby happy.
So my plan to try Time Surfing this week hasn't been going so well. On Tuesday morning around 2 am I woke up super stressed out from work due to deadlines coming up. I had all of this stuff in my head that I needed to do and I just kept thinking about it and couldn't calm it down. It took me an hour to finally calm down and fall back asleep, but it was kind of a low point. The next day at work, I started engaging in what I call ruthless prioritization. It was to focus on the single most important and stressful component of a project and finish it. If I needed a break, I took a break by walking around or breathing or something else small, but not with other work. I needed to make significant progress quickly and couldn't spend any time doing anything else that didn't support that one deadline. It was more for my mental health than anything. I have been doing a Kanban type approach the past three days with pretty good success. I have all of my 100 or so projects (personal or professional) of varying sizes all in "Do". I have a "Doing" that limits my work in progress to three items. And a "Done" for after I complete it.
So far it has worked well. I don't know if it will be a long term solution for me. I suspect I'll probably move toward a different system...perhaps even in the next week (as that is my tendency). But this will be an interesting experiment for now.
Some of the benefits I've experienced is that it provides the ruthless prioritization that I need and focus. It seems to push me toward completion, which engenders what I can only call "anticrastination". I am motivated to crank through the project quickly, wrap it up. I've never been great as finishing work quickly, so this is a challenge for me. But something I think I need to work on as a professional. Anyway, yesterday and today I made some excellent progress on some really challenging analyses at work. I feel so much better today than I did a few night ago, and I'm just not sure if I would've gotten there with a long list.
You still have me interested in serial no-list. Maybe I'll make that my system I switch to in a week :)
I'll also have to keep bounce on there too for sometime down the road.
And thank you for the congratulation on the baby. Maybe that's part of the challenge...having a long list and having about 20 minutes of free time a night. For example, last night my wife was sick and I held the baby for 2.5 hours straight while she cried. Then again at 5 am to 6. She usually isn't this fussy, but we could not figure out why. Randomly (I think by divine inspiration) she decided to visit a website she rarely goes to, then clicked on an article that caught her eye, then on a link that drew her in, then read to the bottom and read about checking babies fingers for hairs that can wrap around and cut off circulation and cut into the skin. Weird. Sure enough, that was the problem. We never would've thought of that had it not been for that. Anyway, just experiences like this of holding an inconsolable baby for 3 hours makes you want to throw away any lists because it's really not that important anyway. But then, I gotta change that dang battery in my key fob or my car or else I won't be able to drive to work and provide for her. So...I guess getting "stuff" done is still essential to be able to keep the baby happy.
July 12, 2019 at 4:47 |
Cameron
Cameron
Long lists assist me in remembering and being reliable, but induces stress and impatience.
Not using any list at all (especially the Time Surfing system) is the best system I've used for acting intuitively, helps me to be calm, but I'm anxious I'll forget things, especially critical things at work.
In short:
I love long lists, but they usually don't love me back.
I hate the idea of going listless, but the empty space calls my name like a siren song.
I haven't tried short-lists yet (daily created, used, and tossed). Perhaps that will give me the love I yearn for in a system.
To give you some insight into my personality, I love organization and minimalism, although I'm not the finest example of either.