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Discussion Forum > toward a synthesis of fundamentals

These ideas have been stirring about in my mind for several weeks. They are still pretty rough but I thought I'd share this outline and see if it provokes any discussion.

An outline of some thoughts - some contrasts and syntheses.

MF's two main TM approaches - both are effective but in different ways:
1. DIT - closed list, audit of commitments, stay on top of your work, Joe Cool
2. Standing Out - Long list/No-List - open list, seedbed, emergent focus, let the priority reveal itself
3. Synthesis - how?

Parallels in TOC with Efrat's Cloud "security vs satisfaction":
1. Security: reliability, predictability - resist change
2. Satisfaction: freedom, expansiveness, flow, intuition - accept change
3. Synthesis: Both are required for happiness

Parallels in Jordan Peterson's intepretation of Yin/Yang, Dual Brain Hemisphere, Order vs Chaos:
1. Order: left-brain; domain of the Known; stability, survival, constriction, tyranny
2. Chaos: right-brain; domain of the Unknown; freedom, adventure, danger,
3. Synthesis: Meaning happens at the place where Order and Chaos meet; the Hero's Journey

Parallels in Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi's "Flow"
1. Skill: what I know how to do; known; experience, background, skill
2. Challenge: the thing I must face; unknown; problem, difficulty, the thing to be overcome
3. Synthesis: FLOW happens when Skill and Challenge are COMPARABLE and both HIGH
July 21, 2019 at 2:45 | Registered CommenterSeraphim
Here are some notes on some experiments I've been doing with Serial No-List, adding a "Tomorrow" component (to integrate the DIT piece), trying to synthesize the above ideas / parallels into the time management system and see where these themes show up in the system. I apologize in advance that these thoughts are pretty rough / unformed.

Here is what I've been trying: "Let's try adding a "tomorrow" page to Serial No-List. Let's put stuff on the Tomorrow page that I don't want to see anymore today. The default for new tasks is still Today's page. But if a task just feels like a distraction, and I don't want to see it anymore, then put it on Tomorrow. Try it and see how it goes."

Having tried that for a couple of weeks, the Tomorrow page tends to capture the recurring items and the odd task requests -- this feels like the domain of "order" - keep my house in order; keep the city walls defended; keep the family fed; be reliable and predictable.


As a result, the Today page starts off a little differently; it starts off with things like this:
The stuff captured yesterday
Maintenance Tasks
Keep the House in order
Keep the family fed
etc.
then draw the line
-----------------------------------------------
Now do the brain dump of everything on my mind
This is where I am most mentally engaged
This is where the synthesis of my life is already happening
This is what yesterday's page already has -- but is already a day old
OK now I've captured what's on my mind
This is like DIT's Current Initiative especially when I have One Big Project
The stuff here is usually related to that One Big Project
Now I draw another line
-----------------------------------------------
Through the course of the day, everything goes here, below the second line, on today's page
But when I don't want to see something anymore today, then I put it on tomorrow's page
So when I feel I've done enough email for today, Email goes on Tomorrow's page
When I get a new task but it's just a distraction and can wait till tomorrow, it goes on Tomorrow's page
This let's me stay with the momentum of the day, without fear of forgetting that new task
This let's Today stay in the Flow of the day
OK so this means the Today page is where Flow happens, where the Synthesis happens


OK now let's look at the older pages. First there's Yesterday's page
Yesterday has the stuff that was Flowing yesterday. A lot of it is still important and engaging today.
With Serial No-List, a lot of it is still on my mind and naturally finds its way onto Today's page at the beginning of the day. But if not, I pick it up pretty quickly the first time nothing stands out on Today's page and I take a pass through Yesterday.

Same with Day Before Yesterday.

The pages even older than that tend to collect a combination of Someday/Maybe things, and maybe some Hard Tasks or Out-of-Context Tasks. If I don't pay close enough attention, this can grow and become a collection of Fear and Unknown and generates resistance. But usually that doesn't happen. Usually the Hard Tasks are hard because they are blocked by something; the block becomes clear, I add the block to Today, I get it resolved, and things move forward. And the Out-of-Context tasks generate "Create the Right Context" tasks on my Today list, they get resolved, and things move forward.

What's interesting is that this seems to match the pattern that Jordan Peterson describes. These Hard Tasks and Out-of-Context Tasks kinda represent the Fear and Unknown and Chaos part of life. But when we engage with them (which can only happen Today, the realm of engagement and action), we bring our skill and knowledge and order, and create meaning. And that's basically how we get things done. At least that's my tentative working theory. :) It seems to be a recurring pattern.

It's interesting that the same pattern matches the Someday/Maybes, except they represent more the positive side of the unknown realm -- the opportunities and possibilities.

In any case, it seems that the older pages -- once you get past the most recent ones -- take you into the realm of Chaos, the realm of the Unknown, the realm of Adventure.

Maybe this is injecting a bit too much drama into a very simple thing. But on the other hand, it is providing a consistent psychological framework that unites DIT with the Standing Out systems, as well as all these other approaches (TOC, Flow, Peterson, etc.).
July 21, 2019 at 2:46 | Registered CommenterSeraphim
Brilliant thinking, Seraphim!
July 21, 2019 at 10:06 | Registered CommenterMark Forster
Hi Seraphim, I like your post and it got me thinking.

DIT principles work for me as I feel very much in control and as a result happy.
Contrast that with using stand out which tends to put me in a tail spin. For some reason I procrastinate a lot using it. I think it is because if I see a task numerous times but donโ€™t act on it (as something else stands out), my brain seems to think it is a hard task and resists doing it.

I suppose we are all different and a system will work for some but not others.
July 22, 2019 at 17:15 | Unregistered CommenterMrDone
Mark:

Thanks! It sure does seem to tie a lot of things together. I'm been thinking how these ideas apply to many of the recent forum topics. I'm hoping to give some examples as soon as I have a bit of time to write some more.
July 23, 2019 at 7:39 | Registered CommenterSeraphim
MrDone -

<< I suppose we are all different and a system will work for some but not others. >>

Yes, that is true. One of the most interesting things about this framework is that it runs across a wide spectrum of systems and approaches, and provides a way to integrate them. For example, If you only look at the Tomorrow and Today parts of the framework, you basically have a normally-functioning DIT system.

When you add in the older pages, it contrasts how Serial No-List's method of scanning the older pages contrasts with DIT's "audit of commitments" method, and brings the long-list scanning and standing-out power to provide a more natural way to weed your commitments and achieve a new balance:

--In terms of DIT, you simply can't clear out all the tasks for five or six days. This triggers an Audit of Commitments.

--In terms of the integrated framework, your overloaded tasks are simply falling into the older pages -- the "realm of chaos". Following the rules of Serial No-List, this naturally generates an appropriate response, depending on what kind of tasks they are. If they are regular maintenance tasks required to keep your life in order, then this basically means your life is falling to pieces -- perhaps you've got an emergency to attend to, and then you can put things back together afterwards -- or maybe you are just completely out of order and need to sort out your life. Serial No-List makes it all visible and helps you to sort it out, figure out where to start, get on top of it, one piece at a time. If they aren't maintenance tasks, they are likely to be the Hard Tasks, Out-of-Context Tasks, or Someday/Maybe Tasks that I described earlier in the thread. All of this is the Realm of Chaos, and the Serial No-List scanning process walks you through it; ultimately I find it gives the same results as the Audit of Commitments but more naturally and intuitively.
July 23, 2019 at 21:24 | Registered CommenterSeraphim
Seraphim:

After trying Serial No-List for a bit it struck me that it was very similar in feel to a system of mine.
And the system of mine is a bit easier to implement, or at least I find it so.

I'd be interested in your thoughts in how Serial No-List differs in practice from the following:

AF1
- with no dismissal
- starting each day from where the previous day began

You have exactly the same dynamic of starting with what is currently active and on your mind. The earlier pages being "Here be dragons".
July 24, 2019 at 19:12 | Registered CommenterMark Forster
Yes, I've noticed the similarities. I seem to recall that Alan Baljeu and I discussed this somewhere, during the first months of Serial No-List at the beginning of the year. At the time, it seemed that starting out with a blank page made a much larger difference, and so we didn't spend too much time exploring this. But now, more than six months into it, it seems worth revisiting the discussion.

No-dismissal AF1, together with the rule to start each day with the first entries from the previous day, would be very similar, but there are still some important differences of emphasis.

No-dismissal AF1 would put a lot of emphasis on the later pages, but the cycling would be different. It would be a common occurrence for these last tasks to span two or more pages, and this would change the dynamics quite a bit. You could not scan them as a single whole group without always being interrupted by taking a scan through the older tasks.

But this gives me an idea how to simplify the whole thing:
1-- Use a long list.
2-- At beginning of the day, draw a line at the end of the list and date it.
3-- Repeatedly cycle through the tasks between the line dated yesterday and the end of the list, working on whatever stands out.
4-- If nothing stands out, take a single pass through the tasks before the line dated yesterday, working on whatever stands out.
5-- Repeat from 3.

As I've noted before, this is kind of like an inverse AF4.
http://markforster.squarespace.com/blog/2009/9/5/preliminary-instructions-for-autofocus-v-4.html

The one thing I feel is missing, which the full integration described in this thread provides, is the DIT component -- specifically, the "Tomorrow" component. I don't really see how that could get integrated back in to the AF1 with Dismissal approach, or this inverse AF4 approach.

But still, I suppose the next thing to do is give it a try and see what happens! ๐Ÿ™‚
July 25, 2019 at 4:12 | Registered CommenterSeraphim
Seraphim:

These are purely personal observations about how the systems affect me, and I realise that other people may not experience the same as me.

1) I actually find the Tomorrow page annoying. It just makes another choice I have to go through. I have to ask "Do I want to do this task again today?", and if I don't I have to write it down in a different place. So instead of a simple "Have I done enough for now?" I'm faced with a more complicated choice - and once or twice I had to fetch a task back from the Tomorrow page to have another bash at it Today.

2) I have rather the same feelings about writing down today's tasks at the beginning of the day. I already have a list of the things which I was working on yesterday. With this version of AF1 all I have to do is add anything new, which is much easier than trying to recreate everything from scratch. I don't have to write everything out again, leaving duplicates on earlier pages. And I don't have to wait for a complete circuit of the list before I find the things I'd forgotten to write down!

3) In regard to not having a full day on one page, I take your point there. But I actually think it is an advantage rather than a disadvantage. A full day of easy current work with an unlimited supply of further easy current tasks tends to mean that all one does is the easy current work. (This is actually the main problem with Simple Scanning). A day broken up into shorter pages only one of which is going to get topped up encourages doing deeper and harder work on that day's tasks.

4) The problem I've outlined in 3 above also applies to your simplified version ("inverse AF4"). One is liable to find oneself circling for ever round the current easy stuff. In fact your "Today" page might be described as a Simple Scanning list with all the difficult tasks removed!
July 25, 2019 at 9:21 | Registered CommenterMark Forster
Very interesting discussion, thanks!

Having tried the "inverse AF4" rules only briefly, it immediately had a different feel. I think the missing element is precisely the process of writing down everything on my mind at the beginning of the day, rather than going with whatever is already on the list. This starts things off with an active and engaged approach, even with the hard things that I might be tempted to resist, so I never seem to run into the problem of cycling through a lot of easy things and leaving all the hard things for later.

Mark, I'd be interested to hear your experience with No-List compared to Long List systems - do you feel this kind of difference, too? For me, No-List has always felt more deeply engaging, more active, more alive, and Serial No-List still captures that element. Long List can be more meditative and more systematic, but for me this tends to make my engagement with it more passive, and that tends to generate the kind of effects you describe in your last post -- circling round and round on the easy stuff, etc.. The challenging stuff is also the engaging stuff (cf. Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi), so a more active mindset that No-List encourages naturally brings it front-and-center without any resistance.

I suppose that is why my experience with the "Today" page is much different than yours. For me it is much more of a mix of the hardest, most engaging tasks, the things most pressing and urgent, and anything else that's bothering me, together with the daily maintenance, and all the usual random stuff that comes up during the day. I am always refreshing that page with whatever is most on my mind -- and that doesn't tend to be the easy stuff.
July 25, 2019 at 19:32 | Registered CommenterSeraphim
Also, to your last point under #2 - << And I don't have to wait for a complete circuit of the list before I find the things I'd forgotten to write down! >>

Since I cycle the pages in reverse order, if I forget about something important when I do my daily startup, I easily and quickly pick it up again. Yesterday's page is the first page I see when I go look at older pages. I don't start the review of older pages with the oldest page as you would in AF1.
July 25, 2019 at 19:39 | Registered CommenterSeraphim
Hi Seraphim, I just had a quick query on Serial No-List.

Per your instructions, I can see how each day you write down all the things that come to mind and you then action them.

If you are relying on memory, or your daily thoughts - surely that would be quite difficult and could easily go wrong with things getting missed?

How do you keep track of all the numerous deadlines, projects, recurring tasks, urgent tasks etc and how do you decide on their priorities and what should then be put on the serial no-list for action?
July 26, 2019 at 9:37 | Unregistered CommenterMrDone
Very interesting stuff, Seraphim!

I thought that the DWM systems were a synthesis of DIT and the Long List.

You have every feature from DIT (except with a seven days span rather than five) plus you have a long list with it's "grass catcher" ability.

The automagical dismissal is half of the DIT audit - I think you called that one "awkward" at one time - the other half would be to re-enter tasks at the "month" entry point even though they were just dismissed.
July 26, 2019 at 11:41 | Unregistered CommenterChristopher
MrDone -

<< Per your instructions, I can see how each day you write down all the things that come to mind and you then action them. If you are relying on memory, or your daily thoughts - surely that would be quite difficult and could easily go wrong with things getting missed? How do you keep track of all the numerous deadlines, projects, recurring tasks, urgent tasks etc and how do you decide on their priorities and what should then be put on the serial no-list for action? >>

I wasn't sure which instructions exactly you were referring to, so I went looking for them. Then I realized the rules for Serial No-List in my first post on the topic were written rather unclearly, and rewritten twice there. And then rewritten and and clarified a couple times after that, too, in other places, buried deep in forum posts.

But I've been following essentially the same process for the last seven months, so I decided to write a new post to clarify the "standard rules" that I've been following for most of that time, except for the various side experiments (such as using a "Tomorrow" page, as described in this post.) I've posted those standard rules here: http://markforster.squarespace.com/forum/post/2745678

So now let me answer your questions.

No, I am not relying on memory at all - that would be quite a disaster. ๐Ÿ™‚

Instead, I am relying on the fact that my mind is naturally already engaged with various things for one reason or another:
-- urgent, important, pressing
-- stressful, problematic, demanding attention
-- interesting, attractive, engaging

I am going on the assumption that this natural engagement is *useful information*. It is also *motivating*. I may as well make use of it!

So I write it down on my list, first thing of the day. It almost always represents the work that is most pressing, most urgent, most important, and most motivating. I'm already thinking about it, already mentally engaged with it, it came to the surface of my mind all by itself.

Once I have that written down and start scanning through it and taking action, this can get me going for the day and I'm off to a good start.

But sometimes I feel something is missing, maybe I am forgetting something. OK, that's easy to fix. I just turn to the page from the previous day and see all the stuff I had captured there:
-- whatever is left over from the start of yesterday that I never got around to working on
-- all the stuff that came up during the course of the previous day that still needs to be done
-- all the work that I moved forward but is still not finished

Some of this may now already be re-entered on my Today page. But maybe there are things on Yesterday's page that I have forgotten about when I started the day today. So now I see it, and pick it up easily and go with it.

If there are still things niggling at me, I just keep scanning through the older pages. That takes about 3 minutes till I've scanned them all and reassured myself that I've got all my top priorities for the morning on my Today page and I'm good to go. Maybe after an hour or two, I'll take another excursion through the older pages to see if anything else stands out as needing attention, now that the most pressing things have been taken care of.

Also, of course there is all the usual email, OneNote, whiteboards, PowerPoints, project files, and everything else that passes through my workspace. Any tasks related to these things get entered into my Serial No-List tasks and are handled accordingly.

For example, I have a Skype meeting with my colleague in Costa Rica; she tells me her team has some technical dependencies on my team. So I enter the task onto my Today Page to figure out what to do about that. Later that day, when I have some free time, it stands out as needing to be done. So I consider what to do; I decide I should enter it as an enabler user story into my team's scrum backlog system, get it ready for our next backlog grooming, and also note it on the calendar to mention at our next daily standup since I am not sure about the timing of the technical dependencies.

This is definitely the kind of task I would have forgotten about. ๐Ÿ™‚ So if I didn't have time that same day to pick up this task, I would have picked up the task the next day when I did my first scan through yesterday's page.

If it had a hard deadline or some other special importance attached to it, I may have also added an Outlook reminder to give it additional emphasis -- "Don't forget about that new technical dependency!!" But usually just scanning the older pages is enough.

Hope that helps.
July 27, 2019 at 2:05 | Registered CommenterSeraphim
Thanks Seraphim - I understand now. I can see how over time that will collect everything that needs doing and manage it well.
It would be interesting to stress test the system if you ever get into large backlogs. I can see how no list systems work well when things are generally up to date as easy to focus on what needs doing there and then. But would it cope if that was not the case? Perhaps a long list system is better? To be honest I donโ€™t think any system copes with large backlogs as they take up too much time to manage so best avoided if possible. Interesting how people in backlogs tend to always be in backlogs and those up to date always seem to keep up to date.
July 27, 2019 at 9:33 | Unregistered CommenterMrDone
Seraphim:

<< Having tried the "inverse AF4" rules only briefly, it immediately had a different feel. I think the missing element is precisely the process of writing down everything on my mind at the beginning of the day, rather than going with whatever is already on the list. This starts things off with an active and engaged approach, even with the hard things that I might be tempted to resist, so I never seem to run into the problem of cycling through a lot of easy things and leaving all the hard things for later. >>

That's good, though I have to admit it's not been my experience. But then different systems are going to affect different people differently.

<< I'd be interested to hear your experience with No-List compared to Long List systems - do you feel this kind of difference, too? >>

At the moment I'm doing the ultimate No-List system - i.e. not having any list at all and relying purely on what I feel like doing. But then I have the privilege of being retired.

Really there's not much difference between what I've done at the end of the day without any system and what I would have done with a system. I realise that may well be because of the training effect of 20-plus years of working with my own systems!

Very early on in my time management experiments I found that there was an immediate increase in concentration and purpose if one just wrote down what one was going to do next before starting to do it. A No-List of one item in fact. Now I find that I can duplicate that mental process without actually doing the physical writing.

<< I suppose that is why my experience with the "Today" page is much different than yours. For me it is much more of a mix of the hardest, most engaging tasks, the things most pressing and urgent, and anything else that's bothering me, together with the daily maintenance, and all the usual random stuff that comes up during the day. I am always refreshing that page with whatever is most on my mind -- and that doesn't tend to be the easy stuff. >>

I wasn't referring to the content of the page, but what actually gets done on the page. One can write down all the stuff you refer to on a single page and still end up doing only the easy stuff. (I'm not saying that you do that, but that the temptation is there for weaker spirits). Splitting the single page up into smaller groups results in deeper work. If you doubt that, try the experiment of using "virtual pages" of ten items and cycling though each "page" in turn. You'll find that it's impractical precisely because you get bogged down working on nearly every task.
July 27, 2019 at 9:37 | Registered CommenterMark Forster
MrDone:

<< Interesting how people in backlogs tend to always be in backlogs and those up to date always seem to keep up to date. >>

That's why it's so important to make clearing backlogs one's top priority.

A constant theme of mine is that the best source of energy is to be completely on top of one's work.
July 27, 2019 at 10:12 | Registered CommenterMark Forster
Christopher -

<< I thought that the DWM systems were a synthesis of DIT and the Long List. >>

I suppose you could say that.


<< You have every feature from DIT (except with a seven days span rather than five) plus you have a long list with it's "grass catcher" ability. >>

Yes, that's true....


<< The automagical dismissal is half of the DIT audit - I think you called that one "awkward" at one time - the other half would be to re-enter tasks at the "month" entry point even though they were just dismissed. >>

I don't remember that bit about re-entering things even though they were just dismissed. I thought tasks were to be *deleted* if they fell off the waterfall.

The entry at 30-days-out gave a kind of pre-screening that meant that most tasks could be deleted with no problem if they fell off the waterfall.

The problems would happen only with the active tasks that are re-entered at 7-days-out. If those start falling off the waterfall, then this could be a sign of overcommitment / overwhelm. Yeah, that was kind of awkward.


Anyway, it seems to me there are some key differences between DWM as a synthesis of DIT and Long List, and "Serial No-List plus a Tomorrow Page" as a synthesis of DIT, No-List, and Long-List. I think the main difference is this. With DWM, the "entry point" is at 30-days-out, the "re-entry" point is at 7-days-out, but most of the action happens at the first few days. In contrast, with Serial No-List w/Tomorrow Page, the entry point and the action point is almost always exactly the same -- the Today page. This gives the systems a very different feel and emphasis. DWM is more long-listy -- more ponderous, harder to focus, less responsive to change and urgency. SNL+T is more no-listy -- more focused, more engaged, more responsive.

Another key difference is that, as time goes by, DWM applies more and more pressure to items that have seen no action. If you don't take action, they will roll off the conveyor belt and be deleted! With SNL+T (and SNL in general), they just sort of fade into the background until you are ready to deal with them (or ready to delete them). There isn't any sense of pressure at all. This makes a big difference, and frees up your intuition to act without any pressure at all.

Those are the two main differences that come to mind.
July 31, 2019 at 0:48 | Registered CommenterSeraphim
What you're working on is Order, and what you're ignoring is Chaos. That sounds like the archetypal story of creation to me!
July 31, 2019 at 23:03 | Registered CommenterAlan Baljeu
I believe Jordan Peterson refers to it as walking the boundary between order and chaos. It's an idea that could be related to the idea of being responsible by words and deeds for the level of good and evil that appears in the world. Taoism + George and The Dragon.
August 16, 2019 at 15:12 | Unregistered Commentermichael
I reread my statement and it seems incorrect. Creation is not ignoring chaos, but addressing chaos and turning it into order. You take a ball of yarn and make a shirt out of it.
August 18, 2019 at 2:30 | Registered CommenterAlan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu:

I did wonder!
August 18, 2019 at 12:52 | Registered CommenterMark Forster
Upon reading these syntheses and reflecting on my experiences with CHAPS, I realized how rare it is for time management systems to encourage their users to take care of themselves and make sure they are alright before or as they are doing things.
August 18, 2019 at 18:33 | Registered Commenternuntym