Discussion Forum > Chicken or egg: Does anxiety drive your trialing of productivity systems
Yup, I've mentioned the phenomenon a few times. Same for dieting.
October 24, 2019 at 17:55 |
Chris
Chris
Avrum, you could put my name at the bottom of your post instead of yours and it would be accurate. I mean seriously, I was thinking about productivity and self-improvement programs in kindergarten. I specifically remember thinking about and researching the most efficient way for me to learn french as a kindergartner, and following through it to a point. (Then Japanese as a 12-year-old.)
Generalized anxiety definitely runs on my mom's side of the family. I developed a handful of fairly successful coping mechanisms over the years. I never really considered that I had anxiety until I did some serious introspection, and discussed it with family and medical professionals. Nothing crazy debilitating, just a general, but ever present gnawing in my stomach and mind (i.e. low seratonin).
I started taking a very low dosage of medication (2-5 mg / day) of medication as an experiment to see how much better I felt. Amazing difference. When I take it consistently I feel more in the flow and I don't feel the need to constantly optimize my productivity system. When I don't take it consistently (for various reasons), I notice that my tendency to focus on productivity systems and optimizing are some of my most dominant thoughts.
As far as dieting: Also a weird side effect--when I take my medication I can eat more and not feel sick after eating (a pb&j sandwich used to make me almost want to throw up after just out of feeling sick). When I take a small dosage I can eat more and have to stop because I physically ran out of room, not because I ran out of appetite. This is actually good for me because I'm pretty underweight for my height. In the spirit of following intuition, have any of you read intuitive eating? One of its main principles is to reject the diet mentality and pay close attention to internal cues and intuition while eating. Very interesting read and program. I felt like there was a very strong correlation between food dieting programs and productivity systems. For me, simple scanning with a long list has been to productivity what intuitive eating is to dieting.
Everytime I switch systems, I try to write down a few things I've learned about that system in a master list. When I go back and review it I see some interesting trends over time. I'm sure I'll switch several more times...but currently simple scanning is giving my new high (as of yesterday morning :)
Generalized anxiety definitely runs on my mom's side of the family. I developed a handful of fairly successful coping mechanisms over the years. I never really considered that I had anxiety until I did some serious introspection, and discussed it with family and medical professionals. Nothing crazy debilitating, just a general, but ever present gnawing in my stomach and mind (i.e. low seratonin).
I started taking a very low dosage of medication (2-5 mg / day) of medication as an experiment to see how much better I felt. Amazing difference. When I take it consistently I feel more in the flow and I don't feel the need to constantly optimize my productivity system. When I don't take it consistently (for various reasons), I notice that my tendency to focus on productivity systems and optimizing are some of my most dominant thoughts.
As far as dieting: Also a weird side effect--when I take my medication I can eat more and not feel sick after eating (a pb&j sandwich used to make me almost want to throw up after just out of feeling sick). When I take a small dosage I can eat more and have to stop because I physically ran out of room, not because I ran out of appetite. This is actually good for me because I'm pretty underweight for my height. In the spirit of following intuition, have any of you read intuitive eating? One of its main principles is to reject the diet mentality and pay close attention to internal cues and intuition while eating. Very interesting read and program. I felt like there was a very strong correlation between food dieting programs and productivity systems. For me, simple scanning with a long list has been to productivity what intuitive eating is to dieting.
Everytime I switch systems, I try to write down a few things I've learned about that system in a master list. When I go back and review it I see some interesting trends over time. I'm sure I'll switch several more times...but currently simple scanning is giving my new high (as of yesterday morning :)
October 24, 2019 at 21:53 |
Cameron
Cameron
Cameron - thanks for sharing your thoughts.
October 25, 2019 at 3:51 |
avrum
avrum
I have to also admit that anxiety probably drives my productivity mania as well. (As one of my coaches said, "productive so you can do *what*?" I was never able to answer that!)
Your post reminded of a quote from Alice W. Flaherty's memoir "The Midnight Disease". Flaherty is a psychiatrist who experienced postpartum depression after the death of her newborn child and experienced hypergraphia (uncontrollable urge to write).
Anyway, here is her quote. When I read it in 2005 it hit me so hard I wrote it down and it's stayed with me ever since:
"Far more important, a life chosen to maximize joy may be very different from one chosen to minimize pain."
Perhaps our to do lists can be sources of joy rather than bulwarks against anxiety? Something I will ponder.
Your post reminded of a quote from Alice W. Flaherty's memoir "The Midnight Disease". Flaherty is a psychiatrist who experienced postpartum depression after the death of her newborn child and experienced hypergraphia (uncontrollable urge to write).
Anyway, here is her quote. When I read it in 2005 it hit me so hard I wrote it down and it's stayed with me ever since:
"Far more important, a life chosen to maximize joy may be very different from one chosen to minimize pain."
Perhaps our to do lists can be sources of joy rather than bulwarks against anxiety? Something I will ponder.
October 25, 2019 at 18:07 |
Mike Brown
Mike Brown
Avrum - your description of the Time Management Anxiety Cycle rings true for me, as well.
<< Curious if any of you have noticed the anxiety --> try a new productivity system/book --> get some momentary relief --> get anxious --> loop de loop :) >>
But it almost vanished about three years ago when I was using No-List -- very intuitively engaging system -- and started going deep into Theory of Constraints (TOC).
The anxiety phenomenon disappeared when I started refusing to go against my intuition, even when the system was prompting me to do so. No-List (at least my particular variant of it) never prompted me to go against my intuition. And my intuition came into sharp focus using the TOC thinking tools, which is specifically designed to help put intuition into words and figure out where to focus.
So for me, I think the anxiety was created by something else: the DISSONANCE BETWEEN WHAT THE SYSTEM WAS PROMPTING ME TO DO, AND WHAT I FELT INTUITIVELY SHOULD BE DONE INSTEAD. I wonder if that resonates with anyone else's experience.
For example - I really like DIT and found it to be pretty effective, but with DIT I tended to put more and more attention on keeping my recurring systems running -- keeping all my inboxes clear, the room and desk tidy, etc. -- more than was really necessary. It created a kind of addiction to regularity. (For me at least.) This started to create a sense of anxiety that more substantial work was not getting done. The growing sense of dissonance and overwhelm would eventually create a backlog and trigger an Audit of Commitments, which would tell me that I was overcommitted -- but that did not ring true for me, it did not align with the promptings of my intuition, which was pointing me in a different direction that I couldn't put into words.
Another example would be various systems rules, like AF1's dismissal, or SFv3's mandate to clear Column 2 before you could move on to the next page, or FV's mandate to finish the whole selection before making a new selection. These could be very helpful but could also create that sense of dissonance when I felt intuitively that I needed to do something different. Of course I could break the rules any time I wanted -- but this created anxiety about the system not being a reliable tool -- and I really needed a reliable tool.
This wasn't just a case of needing to invoke Mark's rule "If it needs to be done now, do it now". It wasn't a matter of urgency. It was just that the systems were telling me I should focus on A when somehow I knew I should be focusing on B or C but the dynamics of the system were blocking me from doing that or even from articulating to myself what the problem was.
I'd guess that any kind of habit can create this kind of dissonance -- we follow a course of action because it's common practice, our usual routine, and it's often hard to break out of it even when we feel some kind of pull to do something else. The habit is concrete and specific -- but intuition isn't always so easy to put into words.
TOC brought me back to the realization that I just needed to know where to focus, and the rest could take care of itself -- it didn't matter so much what system I was using, as long as I had the right focus. It worked great when paired with No-List or FVP or DIT or whatever -- as long as the (very intuitively driven) TOC thinking process took precedence.
I honestly haven't felt that anxiety to switch systems since then. It's still been fun to experiment and see what works better, but it's been driven by a different dynamic - a kind of detached experimentation to see what works better.
Eventually this experimentation allowed me to put into words that the key thing I wanted in a time management system: to more clearly articulate what I already knew intuitively about what I should be doing. That really came into focus for me about a year ago, and led to the Serial No-List system.
<< Curious if any of you have noticed the anxiety --> try a new productivity system/book --> get some momentary relief --> get anxious --> loop de loop :) >>
But it almost vanished about three years ago when I was using No-List -- very intuitively engaging system -- and started going deep into Theory of Constraints (TOC).
The anxiety phenomenon disappeared when I started refusing to go against my intuition, even when the system was prompting me to do so. No-List (at least my particular variant of it) never prompted me to go against my intuition. And my intuition came into sharp focus using the TOC thinking tools, which is specifically designed to help put intuition into words and figure out where to focus.
So for me, I think the anxiety was created by something else: the DISSONANCE BETWEEN WHAT THE SYSTEM WAS PROMPTING ME TO DO, AND WHAT I FELT INTUITIVELY SHOULD BE DONE INSTEAD. I wonder if that resonates with anyone else's experience.
For example - I really like DIT and found it to be pretty effective, but with DIT I tended to put more and more attention on keeping my recurring systems running -- keeping all my inboxes clear, the room and desk tidy, etc. -- more than was really necessary. It created a kind of addiction to regularity. (For me at least.) This started to create a sense of anxiety that more substantial work was not getting done. The growing sense of dissonance and overwhelm would eventually create a backlog and trigger an Audit of Commitments, which would tell me that I was overcommitted -- but that did not ring true for me, it did not align with the promptings of my intuition, which was pointing me in a different direction that I couldn't put into words.
Another example would be various systems rules, like AF1's dismissal, or SFv3's mandate to clear Column 2 before you could move on to the next page, or FV's mandate to finish the whole selection before making a new selection. These could be very helpful but could also create that sense of dissonance when I felt intuitively that I needed to do something different. Of course I could break the rules any time I wanted -- but this created anxiety about the system not being a reliable tool -- and I really needed a reliable tool.
This wasn't just a case of needing to invoke Mark's rule "If it needs to be done now, do it now". It wasn't a matter of urgency. It was just that the systems were telling me I should focus on A when somehow I knew I should be focusing on B or C but the dynamics of the system were blocking me from doing that or even from articulating to myself what the problem was.
I'd guess that any kind of habit can create this kind of dissonance -- we follow a course of action because it's common practice, our usual routine, and it's often hard to break out of it even when we feel some kind of pull to do something else. The habit is concrete and specific -- but intuition isn't always so easy to put into words.
TOC brought me back to the realization that I just needed to know where to focus, and the rest could take care of itself -- it didn't matter so much what system I was using, as long as I had the right focus. It worked great when paired with No-List or FVP or DIT or whatever -- as long as the (very intuitively driven) TOC thinking process took precedence.
I honestly haven't felt that anxiety to switch systems since then. It's still been fun to experiment and see what works better, but it's been driven by a different dynamic - a kind of detached experimentation to see what works better.
Eventually this experimentation allowed me to put into words that the key thing I wanted in a time management system: to more clearly articulate what I already knew intuitively about what I should be doing. That really came into focus for me about a year ago, and led to the Serial No-List system.
October 27, 2019 at 23:46 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Hi Seraphim
<< So for me, I think the anxiety was created by something else:>>
Exactly - that was the gist of my comment/observation. When anxiety increases in another area of my life, I try to regulate the feelings by changing a productivity system. Provides momentary relief (read: distraction) but doesn't address the root issue.
I too have been using the same productivity system for a few years now. However I'm a bit wiser about what it can (and can't) do. And yet, my "junkie" tendency to seek out new highs with novel tools, workflows and systems is still alive and well. As David Allen has said... there are worse ways to spend one's time.
<< So for me, I think the anxiety was created by something else:>>
Exactly - that was the gist of my comment/observation. When anxiety increases in another area of my life, I try to regulate the feelings by changing a productivity system. Provides momentary relief (read: distraction) but doesn't address the root issue.
I too have been using the same productivity system for a few years now. However I'm a bit wiser about what it can (and can't) do. And yet, my "junkie" tendency to seek out new highs with novel tools, workflows and systems is still alive and well. As David Allen has said... there are worse ways to spend one's time.
October 28, 2019 at 0:37 |
avrum
avrum
I concur with Seraphim but do not believe he aligns with you where you write "exactly". The system itself is the source of anxiety when I presses you into actions that do not match what you feel needs doing.
October 28, 2019 at 11:46 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Alan:
<< The system itself is the source of anxiety>>
Ah, if so, you're correct... that is not my point.
My observation is that things external/internal to my life that cause anxiety - in my line of work, we refer to that as chronic and/or acute anxiety - lead to mucking around with productivity systems in an attempt to regulate my anxiety. Recognizing this helps me break the loop de loop mentioned above.
<< The system itself is the source of anxiety>>
Ah, if so, you're correct... that is not my point.
My observation is that things external/internal to my life that cause anxiety - in my line of work, we refer to that as chronic and/or acute anxiety - lead to mucking around with productivity systems in an attempt to regulate my anxiety. Recognizing this helps me break the loop de loop mentioned above.
October 28, 2019 at 12:25 |
avrum
avrum
I think the culture of being "productive", sometimes to appear successful in control and top of things, often for other people benefit, can be harmful, much as social media can be addictive and manipulate people's behaviour against their self-interest. Mark, to his credit, has been quite explicit about NOT framing things this way and of being aware of over-commitments etc. I think when viewed as a must-do list such lists can be anxiety inducing but if viewed as could -do lists one is more aligned with intuitions from the non-conscious (which is why "standing out" is so emphasised) - a much healthier and creative stance.
October 29, 2019 at 11:53 |
michael
michael
I have to also admit that anxiety probably drives my productivity mania as well. We cannot pretend that depression and anxiety are natural phenomena which have consistently been expressed and experienced in the same way down through the centuries. A Conceptual History of Anxiety and Depression (https://docsbay.net/a-conceptual-history-of-anxiety-and-depression)
November 9, 2019 at 1:27 |
jeremyporter
jeremyporter
I've been having some considerable success recently in looking at time management systems as physical rather than mental exercise. In fact of course that's exactly what they are, as they result in physical changes in the brain.
So if one takes this point of view, one can see that a time management system has some of the same characteristics as a physical activity like running. Getting fit by running is a matter of changing one's body. These changes in one's body affect the external world, i.e. you can move from A to B faster and more efficiently. The external world also changes one's body to produce this result.
Exactly the same is true of a time management system. The system is like running. It makes changes in one's body (the brain) which in turn affect the external world. And the external world feeds back to change your brain.
Note that in both cases the changes are progressive.
Now what is the best way to prevent these progressive changes from happening? Obviously if you don't run, you won't get better at running. Similarly if you don't use a system, you won't get better at using the system. This will then mean that you move from A to B less speedily and efficiently than you could, and you will do your work less speedily and efficiently than you could.
But there is another way to prevent these progressive improvements:
Overloading.
In running if you do too much too soon, you will damage yourself. The result will be that you get laid up with an injury and can't train at all.
When using a time management system, doing too much too soon will result in damage. This damage is just as physical as with the running. Instead of tendons and ligaments, it's neurons and brain chemistry. Just as damage when overstressing yourself by running too much for your capacity results in pain, so overstressing yourself by trying to use a TM system to deal with too much work for your capacity results in pain - the pain we call anxiety.
If you think of time management as a physical exercise just like running or weight lifting, it's much easier to see exactly what is causing the pain and how to avoid it.
So if one takes this point of view, one can see that a time management system has some of the same characteristics as a physical activity like running. Getting fit by running is a matter of changing one's body. These changes in one's body affect the external world, i.e. you can move from A to B faster and more efficiently. The external world also changes one's body to produce this result.
Exactly the same is true of a time management system. The system is like running. It makes changes in one's body (the brain) which in turn affect the external world. And the external world feeds back to change your brain.
Note that in both cases the changes are progressive.
Now what is the best way to prevent these progressive changes from happening? Obviously if you don't run, you won't get better at running. Similarly if you don't use a system, you won't get better at using the system. This will then mean that you move from A to B less speedily and efficiently than you could, and you will do your work less speedily and efficiently than you could.
But there is another way to prevent these progressive improvements:
Overloading.
In running if you do too much too soon, you will damage yourself. The result will be that you get laid up with an injury and can't train at all.
When using a time management system, doing too much too soon will result in damage. This damage is just as physical as with the running. Instead of tendons and ligaments, it's neurons and brain chemistry. Just as damage when overstressing yourself by running too much for your capacity results in pain, so overstressing yourself by trying to use a TM system to deal with too much work for your capacity results in pain - the pain we call anxiety.
If you think of time management as a physical exercise just like running or weight lifting, it's much easier to see exactly what is causing the pain and how to avoid it.
November 9, 2019 at 9:48 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Mark, what does overloading look like? Are you mainly talking about having too many items on the list, or working the list past the point of exhaustion? Or both?
The past year, I've used the long list off and on. One of my main struggles is the quantity of personal items in my personal notebook (separate from work notebook). I realistically have about an hour of free time each night on average to crank on the list, which means I might get about halfway around reviewing it using simple scanning.
Simple scanning rules recommend writing down everything you'd like to, have to, want to, or might want to do. This results in a list that takes more than an hour to do one full scan (while dotting of course). To prevent overloading (via quantity), how is this done? By being more liberal in your deleting of tasks that aren't moving? By writing down less to begin with?
The past year, I've used the long list off and on. One of my main struggles is the quantity of personal items in my personal notebook (separate from work notebook). I realistically have about an hour of free time each night on average to crank on the list, which means I might get about halfway around reviewing it using simple scanning.
Simple scanning rules recommend writing down everything you'd like to, have to, want to, or might want to do. This results in a list that takes more than an hour to do one full scan (while dotting of course). To prevent overloading (via quantity), how is this done? By being more liberal in your deleting of tasks that aren't moving? By writing down less to begin with?
November 12, 2019 at 19:01 |
Cameron
Cameron
Hi all
When you really think you're going to die, you don't think of productivity at all. "Are they going to find my rotted carcass on the bathroom floor?"
When I was in the hospital, I knew that my energy was returning because I started worrying about paying my property taxes.
I paid somebody to get me to the tax office. It turns out I was paid in advance to February 2020. I don't remember doing that.
I stuck with my basic weekly DIT with color-coding but drastically pared down what I care about.
I find that I don't even think about productivity when I'm actually fighting for my life. Perversely, it's one of the first things I think about as I get stabilized
I bought out the store's 17 undated, color-coded calendars. I'm good until I'm 86
p.s. when I need the assist, I still use my dice and ratios method.
Thank you, Mark. The fewer things I have to think about the better.
Learning as I go.
When you really think you're going to die, you don't think of productivity at all. "Are they going to find my rotted carcass on the bathroom floor?"
When I was in the hospital, I knew that my energy was returning because I started worrying about paying my property taxes.
I paid somebody to get me to the tax office. It turns out I was paid in advance to February 2020. I don't remember doing that.
I stuck with my basic weekly DIT with color-coding but drastically pared down what I care about.
I find that I don't even think about productivity when I'm actually fighting for my life. Perversely, it's one of the first things I think about as I get stabilized
I bought out the store's 17 undated, color-coded calendars. I'm good until I'm 86
p.s. when I need the assist, I still use my dice and ratios method.
Thank you, Mark. The fewer things I have to think about the better.
Learning as I go.
November 12, 2019 at 22:39 |
learning as I go
learning as I go
Great to hear from you, Learning!
I have to confess,
I am feeling stressed.
So rather than just lurking
And-- heaven forbid-- working,
I redid my system again,
I took some advice from a friend
Moved from the Bounce to SNL
Will this increase my success?
Ahem,
I did find time to write
This "poem".
I have to confess,
I am feeling stressed.
So rather than just lurking
And-- heaven forbid-- working,
I redid my system again,
I took some advice from a friend
Moved from the Bounce to SNL
Will this increase my success?
Ahem,
I did find time to write
This "poem".
November 12, 2019 at 23:02 |
vegheadjones
vegheadjones
Cameron:
<< Simple scanning rules recommend writing down everything you'd like to, have to, want to, or might want to do. >>
That is correct. But Simple Scanning is not intended to be a means of bogging yourself down in hundreds of different things which you laboriously work through, but rather to be a means of reducing stress by writing everything down while at the same time enabling you to concentrate on what is ready to be done now.
<< This results in a list that takes more than an hour to do one full scan (while dotting of course). To prevent overloading (via quantity), how is this done? By being more liberal in your deleting of tasks that aren't moving? By writing down less to begin with? >>
Neither of these is the answer. As I said above, it's important with Simple Scanning to have written everything down. Tasks should only be deleted as and when you finally decide that you are not going to do them at all. The length of the list is actually irrelevant.
What you should be doing is using the list to evaluate what you are in fact going to do during your precious hour. This is most easily accomplished by reading quickly through the list to start off with (as I've always recommended for all lists) and then moving at a good speed through it, using plenty of "little and often". Think of it in physical terms, e.g. as if you were deciding which exercises to do in a gym and then circulating through them multiple times.
<< Simple scanning rules recommend writing down everything you'd like to, have to, want to, or might want to do. >>
That is correct. But Simple Scanning is not intended to be a means of bogging yourself down in hundreds of different things which you laboriously work through, but rather to be a means of reducing stress by writing everything down while at the same time enabling you to concentrate on what is ready to be done now.
<< This results in a list that takes more than an hour to do one full scan (while dotting of course). To prevent overloading (via quantity), how is this done? By being more liberal in your deleting of tasks that aren't moving? By writing down less to begin with? >>
Neither of these is the answer. As I said above, it's important with Simple Scanning to have written everything down. Tasks should only be deleted as and when you finally decide that you are not going to do them at all. The length of the list is actually irrelevant.
What you should be doing is using the list to evaluate what you are in fact going to do during your precious hour. This is most easily accomplished by reading quickly through the list to start off with (as I've always recommended for all lists) and then moving at a good speed through it, using plenty of "little and often". Think of it in physical terms, e.g. as if you were deciding which exercises to do in a gym and then circulating through them multiple times.
November 12, 2019 at 23:06 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Learning:
Great to hear from you again.
I found myself in much the same situation a few years back when I was suffering from my second bout of cancer and had a bad reaction to the chemotherapy, which left me in a wheelchair unable even to type. Fortunately it proved to be only a temporary situation.
But you're right... the last thing I thought of was being productive. What occupied my mind was a blazing determination to get better. Maybe you could call that having one goal and one goal only. I remember the amazing feeling of achievement the first time I managed to twitch one toe. I knew then that I was at the start of the way back to normal.
Of course "normal" after an experience like that is not the same "normal" as before it.
Great to hear from you again.
I found myself in much the same situation a few years back when I was suffering from my second bout of cancer and had a bad reaction to the chemotherapy, which left me in a wheelchair unable even to type. Fortunately it proved to be only a temporary situation.
But you're right... the last thing I thought of was being productive. What occupied my mind was a blazing determination to get better. Maybe you could call that having one goal and one goal only. I remember the amazing feeling of achievement the first time I managed to twitch one toe. I knew then that I was at the start of the way back to normal.
Of course "normal" after an experience like that is not the same "normal" as before it.
November 12, 2019 at 23:15 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Hi Veghead Jones
Wow! It's great to hear from you. I still remember when the forums were revamping (yet again) our systems. I stole much of your newest system and put it into my system when I needed to write down daily stuff and work through iterations of it. To this day when I use my adjunct notebook, I think of you. I think that the focus and flexibility you worked into it was almost genius. I sometimes believe that the repetition and the fun and challenges of testing and maintaining the system actually creates more motivation. Sometimes I'd finish a job simply to avoid writing it down again or straining my brain to write the next step. My laziness can help me get things done.
It's sick when I think doing something for an hour is easier than writing it down again.
Thanks for the shout out!
As Roger used to say Aluta Continua (the struggle continues)
My far less sophisticated version is "coping not cure"
Take care, friend
Learning as I go
Wow! It's great to hear from you. I still remember when the forums were revamping (yet again) our systems. I stole much of your newest system and put it into my system when I needed to write down daily stuff and work through iterations of it. To this day when I use my adjunct notebook, I think of you. I think that the focus and flexibility you worked into it was almost genius. I sometimes believe that the repetition and the fun and challenges of testing and maintaining the system actually creates more motivation. Sometimes I'd finish a job simply to avoid writing it down again or straining my brain to write the next step. My laziness can help me get things done.
It's sick when I think doing something for an hour is easier than writing it down again.
Thanks for the shout out!
As Roger used to say Aluta Continua (the struggle continues)
My far less sophisticated version is "coping not cure"
Take care, friend
Learning as I go
November 12, 2019 at 23:30 |
learning as I go
learning as I go
Hi Mark
((( Mark ))) God bless you... always a soldier. My heart really goes out to you because I know... That's the worst part, fighting but not really knowing for sure.
You are so correct when you state that our perspectives change over the same things.
I have only two main thoughts driving me
Did the damn cancer metastasize?
Even if it has, (tests, tests, tests) can I have a slice of pizza before I go?
I'd probably chose the same thing if it was my last meal on death row. Please, Mr. Executioner, thin crust only!
I actually feel more optimistic hearing about your recovery and your determination that drives it. I'm a stubborn old bird but I must admit I wasn't always so sure... I'm still not but I am SO GRATEFUL. WE'RE STILL HERE. Even in a wheelchair, you've still got the charm!
God Bless you, Mark. I owe you much.
Learning as I go
((( Mark ))) God bless you... always a soldier. My heart really goes out to you because I know... That's the worst part, fighting but not really knowing for sure.
You are so correct when you state that our perspectives change over the same things.
I have only two main thoughts driving me
Did the damn cancer metastasize?
Even if it has, (tests, tests, tests) can I have a slice of pizza before I go?
I'd probably chose the same thing if it was my last meal on death row. Please, Mr. Executioner, thin crust only!
I actually feel more optimistic hearing about your recovery and your determination that drives it. I'm a stubborn old bird but I must admit I wasn't always so sure... I'm still not but I am SO GRATEFUL. WE'RE STILL HERE. Even in a wheelchair, you've still got the charm!
God Bless you, Mark. I owe you much.
Learning as I go
November 12, 2019 at 23:46 |
learning as I go
learning as I go
@ learning as I go
Belatedly ... yes, it really is marvellous to see you back!
Chris
Belatedly ... yes, it really is marvellous to see you back!
Chris
November 18, 2019 at 13:59 |
Chris Cooper
Chris Cooper
Welcome back, Learning - wonderful to hear from you - have always enjoyed your generosity and humour in sharing your experiences in years gone by.
November 19, 2019 at 10:10 |
Margaret1
Margaret1
I've probably been anxious most of my life, but it wasn't a problem until a few years ago. It was the extra edge of adrenaline that kept me going, kept me focussed. It was a bit of excitement to try something new. If I felt anxious, a bit more planning made me feel confident. Other times, like my turn on stage, it was something to ignore.
10 years ago a storytelling coach told me to sit down when performing, sit down and relax. She was right, it made a huge difference and how I told and how the audience reacted.
About 5 years ago a therapist said I might have general anxiety disorder. Not clinical, but enough that some exercises might help. At the time I thought it was because I was seeing a new therapist and anxious about whether she would help. In hindsight, I think it was both a natural tendency to be anxious and an anxiety-provoking situation.
It peaked when I did a temp job for six weeks. It looked like the perfect way to ease into work after 15 years staying at home with the kids. It was a disaster, and really shook my confidence. Around that time I did a great job of organizing the needlecraft guild and aced an advanced music theory exam, but the disaster of a temp job through me. Since then, I've become less and less confident.
When I'm really anxious, worried about getting things done, I go back to my old standby of a weekly plan. When things are going well, I might play with a new system. When life gets busy again, that's the danger zone. If I go back to my trusted system, I'm likely to pull out of it. If I try to make the new system, or yet another new system work, things will probably go downhill.
++++
Learning! Great to see you again! Your determination to keep going, to keep moving forward is amazing.
++++
Cameron, I found a hibernation list worked well when I had too many things I wanted to do. I knew I couldn't do everything on my list, so I chose a few, somewhat random, and moved everything else to the hibernation list. I planned to look at it every 3 to 6 months, but discovered the real power wasn't that it would remind me of everything I wanted to do, but that it gave me permission to not do them.
At a new restaurant, everything on the menu looks wonderful. It's tempting to order them all. That leaves you trying to eat them all before they get cold, instead of enjoying the company. Commit to an appetizer, entree, dessert, and nice wine, and enjoy the evening.
10 years ago a storytelling coach told me to sit down when performing, sit down and relax. She was right, it made a huge difference and how I told and how the audience reacted.
About 5 years ago a therapist said I might have general anxiety disorder. Not clinical, but enough that some exercises might help. At the time I thought it was because I was seeing a new therapist and anxious about whether she would help. In hindsight, I think it was both a natural tendency to be anxious and an anxiety-provoking situation.
It peaked when I did a temp job for six weeks. It looked like the perfect way to ease into work after 15 years staying at home with the kids. It was a disaster, and really shook my confidence. Around that time I did a great job of organizing the needlecraft guild and aced an advanced music theory exam, but the disaster of a temp job through me. Since then, I've become less and less confident.
When I'm really anxious, worried about getting things done, I go back to my old standby of a weekly plan. When things are going well, I might play with a new system. When life gets busy again, that's the danger zone. If I go back to my trusted system, I'm likely to pull out of it. If I try to make the new system, or yet another new system work, things will probably go downhill.
++++
Learning! Great to see you again! Your determination to keep going, to keep moving forward is amazing.
++++
Cameron, I found a hibernation list worked well when I had too many things I wanted to do. I knew I couldn't do everything on my list, so I chose a few, somewhat random, and moved everything else to the hibernation list. I planned to look at it every 3 to 6 months, but discovered the real power wasn't that it would remind me of everything I wanted to do, but that it gave me permission to not do them.
At a new restaurant, everything on the menu looks wonderful. It's tempting to order them all. That leaves you trying to eat them all before they get cold, instead of enjoying the company. Commit to an appetizer, entree, dessert, and nice wine, and enjoy the evening.
November 19, 2019 at 15:28 |
Cricket
Cricket
Hi Chris Cooper, Margaret1 and Cricket
Wow! You have really touched my heart. Thank you so much.
When I'm able, I'll check back in. It's kind of embarrassing to say that right now I'm not in charge of much right now.
I hope everybody's holidays exceed their wildest expectations. Yes, I said "wildest"... I left the parameters wide open. Have fun!
Learning as I go
Wow! You have really touched my heart. Thank you so much.
When I'm able, I'll check back in. It's kind of embarrassing to say that right now I'm not in charge of much right now.
I hope everybody's holidays exceed their wildest expectations. Yes, I said "wildest"... I left the parameters wide open. Have fun!
Learning as I go
November 27, 2019 at 7:39 |
learning as I go
learning as I go
learning as I go -
It is such a joy to see your posts here! I wish I had seen them earlier.
You have always been an inspiration.
It is such a joy to see your posts here! I wish I had seen them earlier.
You have always been an inspiration.
January 4, 2020 at 20:37 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Mark Forster wrote:
<< Maybe you could call that having one goal and one goal only >>
When you have only one goal, it creates tremendous focus, and incredible things can happen.
My experience with time management has always been that the real results come not from squeezing every drop of productivity out of the day, but from achieving and sustaining sharp focus on the right things.
When there is a crisis or emergency, it's easy to know where to focus. Everything else fades into the background. Not only in personal life, but also in organizational outcomes. A corporate VP can make an urgent demand and it suddenly creates a shared sense of crisis across the organization, and it generates tremendous focus -- it frees up resources, moves the crisis work to the top of the priority list, allows new creative ideas to bypass bureaucratic hurdles, etc.
But I kept wondering and wondering... how to create that sense of focus WITHOUT the crisis? We all have many goals, many desires, many priorities.
The idea I've been pondering lately is how these many goals and desires form a hierarchy, coming together in one ultimate goal. I wrote about it here: http://markforster.squarespace.com/forum/post/2755989
Once we discover what our highest goal is, and how our other goals are subordinated to it, it makes it much easier to see where to focus. Also, many of the subordinate goals take on a different character -- they no longer seem important for their own sake, and it's easier to see the interdependencies between them, and to resolve conflicts between them.
It doesn't quite create the same focus as a real crisis, but it comes a lot closer than anything else I've tried before. I want to keep refining this idea and see if I can make it more practical to implement (and easier to explain).
<< Maybe you could call that having one goal and one goal only >>
When you have only one goal, it creates tremendous focus, and incredible things can happen.
My experience with time management has always been that the real results come not from squeezing every drop of productivity out of the day, but from achieving and sustaining sharp focus on the right things.
When there is a crisis or emergency, it's easy to know where to focus. Everything else fades into the background. Not only in personal life, but also in organizational outcomes. A corporate VP can make an urgent demand and it suddenly creates a shared sense of crisis across the organization, and it generates tremendous focus -- it frees up resources, moves the crisis work to the top of the priority list, allows new creative ideas to bypass bureaucratic hurdles, etc.
But I kept wondering and wondering... how to create that sense of focus WITHOUT the crisis? We all have many goals, many desires, many priorities.
The idea I've been pondering lately is how these many goals and desires form a hierarchy, coming together in one ultimate goal. I wrote about it here: http://markforster.squarespace.com/forum/post/2755989
Once we discover what our highest goal is, and how our other goals are subordinated to it, it makes it much easier to see where to focus. Also, many of the subordinate goals take on a different character -- they no longer seem important for their own sake, and it's easier to see the interdependencies between them, and to resolve conflicts between them.
It doesn't quite create the same focus as a real crisis, but it comes a lot closer than anything else I've tried before. I want to keep refining this idea and see if I can make it more practical to implement (and easier to explain).
January 4, 2020 at 20:56 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Hi Seraphim
Sorry I'm so late responding to your kind post. I found myself back in the damn hospital. Sometimes the sheer boredom and lack of personal agency is worse than the disease. Yeah, I'm a goofball...
I see that your mind is still very active working on these systems! Maybe you aught to write a book. You don't need the final answer to write a book. You have many great ideas and you also delve into the principles governing it. I'd buy a copy!
I hope all is well with your family.
p.s. Are you signed up for Mark's Lent challenge? I'd ordinarily do it but I'd have to disqualify myself. I've been using my same system for years so I'd be cheating and now..... now.... now... I can't really rely on my health not to ball up the works! Damn, it's difficult adjusting to being not reliable *blush*.
Well, I hope all of us can enjoy Fat Tuesday!
Learning as I go
Sorry I'm so late responding to your kind post. I found myself back in the damn hospital. Sometimes the sheer boredom and lack of personal agency is worse than the disease. Yeah, I'm a goofball...
I see that your mind is still very active working on these systems! Maybe you aught to write a book. You don't need the final answer to write a book. You have many great ideas and you also delve into the principles governing it. I'd buy a copy!
I hope all is well with your family.
p.s. Are you signed up for Mark's Lent challenge? I'd ordinarily do it but I'd have to disqualify myself. I've been using my same system for years so I'd be cheating and now..... now.... now... I can't really rely on my health not to ball up the works! Damn, it's difficult adjusting to being not reliable *blush*.
Well, I hope all of us can enjoy Fat Tuesday!
Learning as I go
February 17, 2020 at 3:43 |
Learning as I go
Learning as I go
p.s.
One of the worst things about being in the hospital is that they won't allow me to wear normal pajamas. I'm forced to wear the butt-exposing, ill-fitting contraption because they said that they're doing lots of stuff on me and it's not expedient for them for me to wear civilized pajamas! Well, my dignity is shot but I've got the important stuff in check. I get decent food smuggled in and I've can read the chart and sometimes sneak out. I ploy a jailbreak every once in awhile. LOL! My sister is a registered nurse and she knows how to turn off all the buzzers and alarms on the medical equipment. LOL! It feels like we're on a caper!
Well, I'm home again for now and my fingers are crossed.
If I can, I'll follow you guys on your Lent challenge. Anybody taking bets?
Take care
Learning as I go
One of the worst things about being in the hospital is that they won't allow me to wear normal pajamas. I'm forced to wear the butt-exposing, ill-fitting contraption because they said that they're doing lots of stuff on me and it's not expedient for them for me to wear civilized pajamas! Well, my dignity is shot but I've got the important stuff in check. I get decent food smuggled in and I've can read the chart and sometimes sneak out. I ploy a jailbreak every once in awhile. LOL! My sister is a registered nurse and she knows how to turn off all the buzzers and alarms on the medical equipment. LOL! It feels like we're on a caper!
Well, I'm home again for now and my fingers are crossed.
If I can, I'll follow you guys on your Lent challenge. Anybody taking bets?
Take care
Learning as I go
February 17, 2020 at 3:54 |
Learning as I go
Learning as I go
Learning as I go:
<<Seraphim... Maybe you aught to write a book. You don't need the final answer to write a book. You have many great ideas and you also delve into the principles governing it.>>
Wonderful idea Learning. There are a few people on this board who I'd invest time reading/learning from - in book, video or audio format.
<<Seraphim... Maybe you aught to write a book. You don't need the final answer to write a book. You have many great ideas and you also delve into the principles governing it.>>
Wonderful idea Learning. There are a few people on this board who I'd invest time reading/learning from - in book, video or audio format.
February 17, 2020 at 4:08 |
avrum
avrum
You've written a book or two avrum. How did the process go for you?
It seems to me there are at least two challenges in writing: First, having enough to say and enough confidence in the value of saying it. But then there's the challenge of effectively conveying your thoughts to the reader. It's very easy to write *about* complicated ideas like TOC without actually getting your understanding of things to take root in the reader.
I was listening to a podcast wherein an expert on learning opined that the problem with non-fiction books is in the book itself. Reading books, such as they are designed these days, is not an effective way to pick up ideas. I might read and might learn something, but it doesn't take root and transform my thinking. If I were to try to follow the ideas I pick up, I would fail because I really haven't learned how by merely reading.
The problem is that in *your* head there is a web of interconnected ideas, and your goal is to instill a similar web of connections in my head; but with a book all we have is a linear exposition of your thoughts, and I, in reading it, have a linear intake of your exposition. To really learn Ineed to interact with ideas, wrestle with them, recur, attempt to apply, fail, and adjust. And to effectively teach what you know... that part I don't know how.
It seems to me there are at least two challenges in writing: First, having enough to say and enough confidence in the value of saying it. But then there's the challenge of effectively conveying your thoughts to the reader. It's very easy to write *about* complicated ideas like TOC without actually getting your understanding of things to take root in the reader.
I was listening to a podcast wherein an expert on learning opined that the problem with non-fiction books is in the book itself. Reading books, such as they are designed these days, is not an effective way to pick up ideas. I might read and might learn something, but it doesn't take root and transform my thinking. If I were to try to follow the ideas I pick up, I would fail because I really haven't learned how by merely reading.
The problem is that in *your* head there is a web of interconnected ideas, and your goal is to instill a similar web of connections in my head; but with a book all we have is a linear exposition of your thoughts, and I, in reading it, have a linear intake of your exposition. To really learn Ineed to interact with ideas, wrestle with them, recur, attempt to apply, fail, and adjust. And to effectively teach what you know... that part I don't know how.
February 17, 2020 at 22:23 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu:
<< You've written a book or two avrum. How did the process go for you? >>
I know I'm not avrum, but I thought you might be interested in the formula I used for writing my most recent (and probably last) book, "Secrets of Productive People". Two things to remember about this book: 1) it had to conform to a very detailed format laid down by the publisher, and 2) I was going through all the stuff to do with my first bout of cancer while I was writing it (including a stem-cell transfer).
1. I spent a number of weeks writing down every single idea I had on the subject. I added to this list several times a day.
2. I then started grouping these ideas under headings - while still adding to the list.
3. I needed 50 Chapters for the book, so I used the headings as possible chapter names, and put these in turn in a possible sequence. I spent several more weeks revising these. Getting the chapter names in order of course sparked off more ideas.
4. Once all this seemed to be fairly firm. I started to write the first rough draft. For some chapters it was very rough indeed.
5. I expanded and edited the drafts multiple times, sometimes working on a single chapter, sometimes on a group of chapters and sometimes the whole book.
6. Finally I went through the entire book for a final polishing.
7. I sent it off to the publisher, and it was published without a single correction or edit from the publisher (as have all my books).
There are so many ideas in it which I had not thought of before that I regularly refer to it for inspiration!
P.S. I forgot to mention that the contract required me to provide five quotations for each chapter. That 5 x 30 = 250 quotations!
<< You've written a book or two avrum. How did the process go for you? >>
I know I'm not avrum, but I thought you might be interested in the formula I used for writing my most recent (and probably last) book, "Secrets of Productive People". Two things to remember about this book: 1) it had to conform to a very detailed format laid down by the publisher, and 2) I was going through all the stuff to do with my first bout of cancer while I was writing it (including a stem-cell transfer).
1. I spent a number of weeks writing down every single idea I had on the subject. I added to this list several times a day.
2. I then started grouping these ideas under headings - while still adding to the list.
3. I needed 50 Chapters for the book, so I used the headings as possible chapter names, and put these in turn in a possible sequence. I spent several more weeks revising these. Getting the chapter names in order of course sparked off more ideas.
4. Once all this seemed to be fairly firm. I started to write the first rough draft. For some chapters it was very rough indeed.
5. I expanded and edited the drafts multiple times, sometimes working on a single chapter, sometimes on a group of chapters and sometimes the whole book.
6. Finally I went through the entire book for a final polishing.
7. I sent it off to the publisher, and it was published without a single correction or edit from the publisher (as have all my books).
There are so many ideas in it which I had not thought of before that I regularly refer to it for inspiration!
P.S. I forgot to mention that the contract required me to provide five quotations for each chapter. That 5 x 30 = 250 quotations!
February 18, 2020 at 13:41 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
I can see that working for relatively simple ideas which take up a single short chapter. But indeed my question was not the conventional how do you write a book?
My question is “how can one accurately convey ideas?” (And let’s notice I failed to do so just now.)
I know you have more than once in this forum written an idea only for people to overlook details or misunderstand something fundamentally. What then if you are conveying something more complex than a blog post, and you have no chance to interact with the reader? The answer to this question cannot simply be “write drafts and keep refining” because while the result will be sensible to you, it won’t fully take root in a conventional reader’s psyche the way it has in the author.
Something more is needed than write-publish-read.
My question is “how can one accurately convey ideas?” (And let’s notice I failed to do so just now.)
I know you have more than once in this forum written an idea only for people to overlook details or misunderstand something fundamentally. What then if you are conveying something more complex than a blog post, and you have no chance to interact with the reader? The answer to this question cannot simply be “write drafts and keep refining” because while the result will be sensible to you, it won’t fully take root in a conventional reader’s psyche the way it has in the author.
Something more is needed than write-publish-read.
February 19, 2020 at 12:49 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Alan:
<<You've written a book or two avrum. How did the process go for you>>
Better than a root canal, but not by much :)
A good tip (from MacSparky - David Sparks): Begin the writing process by recording yourself (audio) as if you were speaking to a friend about your project.
Tip #2: Have the gumption to think that whatever it is you have to say will be of interest to some/many
Tip #3: Choose a topic that you think is underreported and/or misunderstood (only works if you can muster enough ire)
Tip #4: Have a day job (or a nice inheritance).
<<You've written a book or two avrum. How did the process go for you>>
Better than a root canal, but not by much :)
A good tip (from MacSparky - David Sparks): Begin the writing process by recording yourself (audio) as if you were speaking to a friend about your project.
Tip #2: Have the gumption to think that whatever it is you have to say will be of interest to some/many
Tip #3: Choose a topic that you think is underreported and/or misunderstood (only works if you can muster enough ire)
Tip #4: Have a day job (or a nice inheritance).
February 19, 2020 at 19:55 |
avrum
avrum
Alan Baljeu,
<< I can see that working for relatively simple ideas which take up a single short chapter.>>
If you want to communicate with people, then you have to a) be clear about your ideas yourself, and b) make those ideas clear to the other people. That is why you have to let the ideas work in your own mind and undergo redrafting. You will never get the required clarity without it.
That would not necessarily be true if your ideas were really clear to you to begin with. Then you might have little problem expressing them. But that's presumably not the case in this instance or you wouldn't be asking the question.
However complex your ideas are you have to be able to be able to express them in simple terms. If you don't do that you won't be understood. And that will usually be a reflection of your own lack of inner clarity.
<< I know you have more than once in this forum written an idea only for people to overlook details or misunderstand something fundamentally. >>
They are always going to do that. That's why you have to keep refining so that the chance of misunderstanding is reduced to the minimum. To write something as simple as the rules of a time management system requires a huge amount of care. It's always a case of making it as simple and unambiguous as possible.
<< What then if you are conveying something more complex than a blog post, and you have no chance to interact with the reader? >>
What indeed? That is why you have to express yourself as simply as possible. You will only be able to do that if you have refined your own thinking so that you understand it yourself in simple terms.
<< The answer to this question cannot simply be “write drafts and keep refining” because while the result will be sensible to you, it won’t fully take root in a conventional reader’s psyche the way it has in the author. >>
You're right - that is not the whole answer. You have missed out the whole of the first part of what I said, which is the gathering and relating of ideas. Until you've done that there is no point in starting to draft, let alone refining.
<< Something more is needed than write-publish-read. >>
Correct. Which is why in all my books I include exercises, guidance on how to read the book and so on.
If you haven't already read "Secrets of Productive People" or even if you have, go through it carefully looking at the structure and how the argument develops throughout the book. Notice particularly the introductory matter, the grouping and sequence of chapters and the chapter summaries "Putting it all together", and finally examine the last section (Chapter 50) which is about "Going Beyond". The book is actually a carefully designed whole, not just a collection of random articles or blog posts.
And then I suggest you read the reviews on Amazon to see how it has come over to readers. That's the real test of your writing.
<< I can see that working for relatively simple ideas which take up a single short chapter.>>
If you want to communicate with people, then you have to a) be clear about your ideas yourself, and b) make those ideas clear to the other people. That is why you have to let the ideas work in your own mind and undergo redrafting. You will never get the required clarity without it.
That would not necessarily be true if your ideas were really clear to you to begin with. Then you might have little problem expressing them. But that's presumably not the case in this instance or you wouldn't be asking the question.
However complex your ideas are you have to be able to be able to express them in simple terms. If you don't do that you won't be understood. And that will usually be a reflection of your own lack of inner clarity.
<< I know you have more than once in this forum written an idea only for people to overlook details or misunderstand something fundamentally. >>
They are always going to do that. That's why you have to keep refining so that the chance of misunderstanding is reduced to the minimum. To write something as simple as the rules of a time management system requires a huge amount of care. It's always a case of making it as simple and unambiguous as possible.
<< What then if you are conveying something more complex than a blog post, and you have no chance to interact with the reader? >>
What indeed? That is why you have to express yourself as simply as possible. You will only be able to do that if you have refined your own thinking so that you understand it yourself in simple terms.
<< The answer to this question cannot simply be “write drafts and keep refining” because while the result will be sensible to you, it won’t fully take root in a conventional reader’s psyche the way it has in the author. >>
You're right - that is not the whole answer. You have missed out the whole of the first part of what I said, which is the gathering and relating of ideas. Until you've done that there is no point in starting to draft, let alone refining.
<< Something more is needed than write-publish-read. >>
Correct. Which is why in all my books I include exercises, guidance on how to read the book and so on.
If you haven't already read "Secrets of Productive People" or even if you have, go through it carefully looking at the structure and how the argument develops throughout the book. Notice particularly the introductory matter, the grouping and sequence of chapters and the chapter summaries "Putting it all together", and finally examine the last section (Chapter 50) which is about "Going Beyond". The book is actually a carefully designed whole, not just a collection of random articles or blog posts.
And then I suggest you read the reviews on Amazon to see how it has come over to readers. That's the real test of your writing.
February 19, 2020 at 21:38 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
"gathering and relating of ideas" Is there more detail hidden in that phrase? I think it refers to these two items:
<<1. I spent a number of weeks writing down every single idea I had on the subject. I added to this list several times a day.
2. I then started grouping these ideas under headings - while still adding to the list.>>
I appreciate the part you write about exercises, guidance.
I have not read Secrets, now maybe I need to, in order to fully appreciate your meaning.
<<1. I spent a number of weeks writing down every single idea I had on the subject. I added to this list several times a day.
2. I then started grouping these ideas under headings - while still adding to the list.>>
I appreciate the part you write about exercises, guidance.
I have not read Secrets, now maybe I need to, in order to fully appreciate your meaning.
February 19, 2020 at 21:58 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu:
<< I think it refers to these two items:>>
Correct
<< I think it refers to these two items:>>
Correct
February 19, 2020 at 22:27 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Learning as I go:
<< Maybe you aught to write a book. ... You have many great ideas and you also delve into the principles governing it. I'd buy a copy! >>
Thanks for the encouragement! I had intended to start a book project last year, but several changes in my job took away most of my discretionary time for a couple of months, and the project stalled. I keep intending to get back to it, but now I am going through yet another job change...
<< You don't need the final answer to write a book. >>
You hit the nail on the head, for me at least. I like the forum here because I can explore and share my observations and half-baked ideas. But every time I've considered writing a book, before I've even got an outline for it, my ideas have evolved. I guess I should write a very short book, so I can get it finished before my ideas have changed too much, LOL.
Do any of you published authors have any advice for this dilemma?
<< I hope all is well with your family. >>
Thanks for asking! Only six kids left at home - we're starting to feel the empty nest syndrome, LOL.
<< p.s. Are you signed up for Mark's Lent challenge? >>
Yes, I am using DIT, modified so that if I ever fall behind and need to apply the "diagnostic procedure" described in chapter 12 of the DIT book, I use the Theory of Constraints Thinking Process to identify the core problem (generally a deep conflict of some kind) that is preventing me from staying on top of all my work. So far, it has been working wonderfully.
<< it's difficult adjusting to being not reliable *blush*. >>
So sorry to hear of all your health issues...
<< My sister is a registered nurse and she knows how to turn off all the buzzers and alarms on the medical equipment. LOL! It feels like we're on a caper! >>
Why am I not surprised? LOL Always finding the positive side of things...
It's so good to see you posting here again. 🙂
<< Maybe you aught to write a book. ... You have many great ideas and you also delve into the principles governing it. I'd buy a copy! >>
Thanks for the encouragement! I had intended to start a book project last year, but several changes in my job took away most of my discretionary time for a couple of months, and the project stalled. I keep intending to get back to it, but now I am going through yet another job change...
<< You don't need the final answer to write a book. >>
You hit the nail on the head, for me at least. I like the forum here because I can explore and share my observations and half-baked ideas. But every time I've considered writing a book, before I've even got an outline for it, my ideas have evolved. I guess I should write a very short book, so I can get it finished before my ideas have changed too much, LOL.
Do any of you published authors have any advice for this dilemma?
<< I hope all is well with your family. >>
Thanks for asking! Only six kids left at home - we're starting to feel the empty nest syndrome, LOL.
<< p.s. Are you signed up for Mark's Lent challenge? >>
Yes, I am using DIT, modified so that if I ever fall behind and need to apply the "diagnostic procedure" described in chapter 12 of the DIT book, I use the Theory of Constraints Thinking Process to identify the core problem (generally a deep conflict of some kind) that is preventing me from staying on top of all my work. So far, it has been working wonderfully.
<< it's difficult adjusting to being not reliable *blush*. >>
So sorry to hear of all your health issues...
<< My sister is a registered nurse and she knows how to turn off all the buzzers and alarms on the medical equipment. LOL! It feels like we're on a caper! >>
Why am I not surprised? LOL Always finding the positive side of things...
It's so good to see you posting here again. 🙂
February 22, 2020 at 4:13 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Alan Baljeu -
<< The problem is that in *your* head there is a web of interconnected ideas, and your goal is to instill a similar web of connections in my head; but with a book all we have is a linear exposition of your thoughts, and I, in reading it, have a linear intake of your exposition. >>
Sounds like a variation of Meno's Paradox?
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/epistemic-paradoxes/#MenParInqPuzAboGaiKno
<< The problem is that in *your* head there is a web of interconnected ideas, and your goal is to instill a similar web of connections in my head; but with a book all we have is a linear exposition of your thoughts, and I, in reading it, have a linear intake of your exposition. >>
Sounds like a variation of Meno's Paradox?
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/epistemic-paradoxes/#MenParInqPuzAboGaiKno
February 22, 2020 at 4:15 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Mark Forster:
<< I thought you might be interested in the formula I used for writing my most recent (and probably last) book, "Secrets of Productive People" >>
Thank you very much for detailing your process! It's making me feel like I can maybe start my book project going again.
<< I thought you might be interested in the formula I used for writing my most recent (and probably last) book, "Secrets of Productive People" >>
Thank you very much for detailing your process! It's making me feel like I can maybe start my book project going again.
February 22, 2020 at 4:20 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Alan Baljeu -
<< Something more is needed than write-publish-read. >>
I think the answer to Meno's Paradox (and your question) is something like this.
We all have partial knowledge of the topics in the books we are reading -- the only way we can understand the book is to connect it somehow to the partial knowledge that we already have.
We do this through "abductive inference", which is similar to "inductive reasoning".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abductive_reasoning
http://www.dbrmfg.co.nz/&%20More%20Epistemology.htm
Basically, we are given a set of specific tangible facts, observations, or statements. And from these, we infer an hypothesis that attempts to formulate general concepts from the specific observations. We do this all the time, very naturally. It is very powerful, but also fraught with many problems, primarily our own contextual assumptions and cognitive biases.
This is what happens when we are processing the specific linear feed that comes to us in the form of a book. We are comparing and contrasting with our partial knowledge about the subject matter. This inner dialogue leads to the abductive formulation of general concepts, synthesized into a new integration that combines our own partial knowledge and experience with the new.
<< Something more is needed than write-publish-read. >>
I think the answer to Meno's Paradox (and your question) is something like this.
We all have partial knowledge of the topics in the books we are reading -- the only way we can understand the book is to connect it somehow to the partial knowledge that we already have.
We do this through "abductive inference", which is similar to "inductive reasoning".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abductive_reasoning
http://www.dbrmfg.co.nz/&%20More%20Epistemology.htm
Basically, we are given a set of specific tangible facts, observations, or statements. And from these, we infer an hypothesis that attempts to formulate general concepts from the specific observations. We do this all the time, very naturally. It is very powerful, but also fraught with many problems, primarily our own contextual assumptions and cognitive biases.
This is what happens when we are processing the specific linear feed that comes to us in the form of a book. We are comparing and contrasting with our partial knowledge about the subject matter. This inner dialogue leads to the abductive formulation of general concepts, synthesized into a new integration that combines our own partial knowledge and experience with the new.
February 22, 2020 at 4:36 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
avrum -
<< A good tip (from MacSparky - David Sparks): Begin the writing process by recording yourself (audio) as if you were speaking to a friend about your project. ... >>
Thanks for sharing these tips! These are really helpful.
<< A good tip (from MacSparky - David Sparks): Begin the writing process by recording yourself (audio) as if you were speaking to a friend about your project. ... >>
Thanks for sharing these tips! These are really helpful.
February 22, 2020 at 4:39 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Mark Forster --
<< If you haven't already read "Secrets of Productive People" or even if you have, go through it carefully looking at the structure and how the argument develops throughout the book. >>
Wow, lots of great stuff in this thread. Thanks so much for posting your thoughts on this, Mark!
<< If you haven't already read "Secrets of Productive People" or even if you have, go through it carefully looking at the structure and how the argument develops throughout the book. >>
Wow, lots of great stuff in this thread. Thanks so much for posting your thoughts on this, Mark!
February 22, 2020 at 4:42 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Yes this abductive process certainly occurs but also certainly is very shallow when one reads a book. I think often to learn effectively you must practice (Mark refers to exercises.) Yet I have found the exercises that exist at the end of many chapters of many "self-help" books to either be terribly shallow or else exceedingly deep and difficult to fathom.
Practical subjects tend to be better with exercises that are easy enough but reinforce the process conveyed. Exercises themselves though are never enough. To truly learn the subject you must take the education and apply it repeatedly to real situations. In a job, if you are required to apply your learning, that is when it starts to take root.
The next step they say, is teaching. To really know what you know you have to try to teach it. This takes you to the next level, but it takes your student to the level a few paragraphs up, unless
you are able to provide the interactive development they need to truly learn.
Practical subjects tend to be better with exercises that are easy enough but reinforce the process conveyed. Exercises themselves though are never enough. To truly learn the subject you must take the education and apply it repeatedly to real situations. In a job, if you are required to apply your learning, that is when it starts to take root.
The next step they say, is teaching. To really know what you know you have to try to teach it. This takes you to the next level, but it takes your student to the level a few paragraphs up, unless
you are able to provide the interactive development they need to truly learn.
February 22, 2020 at 13:34 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Hi Seraphim
You always make me smile! I, too, have (had) ideas and thoughts flying at me all the time. I'd write my ideas down thinking I was on to something viable and then in the space of days finally see that most of them were just plain a waste! But they were fun before my better sense took a second look! Maybe it's ego preservation, but I believe that the hare-brain ideas sometimes contribute to the better thinking to come. Like you, I was always writing down ideas. Unlike you I didn't put them on my work list. I don't have your discipline. I'd never get anything done if it appeared on my work list.
My vote? Just keep on as you are. If you're meant to crank out a book, it will come in due time. In the meanwhile, enjoy your brilliant, active mind and wonderful sense of humor.
Down to only six children at home. That sentence put a smile on my face. (((Seraphim)))
I had to go back to jail...errr... hospital yet again but I found out that the cancer did not metastasize into some other organs. These are other things..... oh, joy *sigh*
Well, I sort of deserve some of it. Who eats pizza while getting an iv drip? Me.
Who disconnects life-saving antibiotic IV to save my life. Me. In fairness, I was attached to all this stuff for days and only sprang the coop for about an hour or so. The boredom was killing me.
I'm excited that you're using DIT for your lent challenge. I don't have the discipline for straight DIT so I have a weekly version that gives me wiggle room when I'm well enough to do it. I should celebrate my ultimate excuses to be lazy but I can't.... my brain-wiring won't release me how I was raised. LOL! I hope you enjoy the challenge. It'll probably inspire you to invent variations or completely new ideas. I love how your brain works!
Blessings to you and your family.
Learning
You always make me smile! I, too, have (had) ideas and thoughts flying at me all the time. I'd write my ideas down thinking I was on to something viable and then in the space of days finally see that most of them were just plain a waste! But they were fun before my better sense took a second look! Maybe it's ego preservation, but I believe that the hare-brain ideas sometimes contribute to the better thinking to come. Like you, I was always writing down ideas. Unlike you I didn't put them on my work list. I don't have your discipline. I'd never get anything done if it appeared on my work list.
My vote? Just keep on as you are. If you're meant to crank out a book, it will come in due time. In the meanwhile, enjoy your brilliant, active mind and wonderful sense of humor.
Down to only six children at home. That sentence put a smile on my face. (((Seraphim)))
I had to go back to jail...errr... hospital yet again but I found out that the cancer did not metastasize into some other organs. These are other things..... oh, joy *sigh*
Well, I sort of deserve some of it. Who eats pizza while getting an iv drip? Me.
Who disconnects life-saving antibiotic IV to save my life. Me. In fairness, I was attached to all this stuff for days and only sprang the coop for about an hour or so. The boredom was killing me.
I'm excited that you're using DIT for your lent challenge. I don't have the discipline for straight DIT so I have a weekly version that gives me wiggle room when I'm well enough to do it. I should celebrate my ultimate excuses to be lazy but I can't.... my brain-wiring won't release me how I was raised. LOL! I hope you enjoy the challenge. It'll probably inspire you to invent variations or completely new ideas. I love how your brain works!
Blessings to you and your family.
Learning
March 4, 2020 at 6:50 |
learning as I go
learning as I go
Hi Seraphim
p.s.
You said
"Yes, I am using DIT, modified so that if I ever fall behind and need to apply the "diagnostic procedure" described in chapter 12 of the DIT book"
For me, I never had to bother with that. When I deviated from the system, it was usually because other things got in the way, a project needed more attention than I thought, but usually the reason was plain old laziness. I was having more fun doing something else. The weekly version took away the guilt and kept me on time or a bit ahead despite my willfully ignoring my work for awhile. I suppose the flexibility ultimately helps me to stay mostly on time when I'm actually able to do the work. Being old and sick isn't for sissies!
Again, good luck on your lent challenge. I know that you'll have fun with it.
Learning
p.s.
You said
"Yes, I am using DIT, modified so that if I ever fall behind and need to apply the "diagnostic procedure" described in chapter 12 of the DIT book"
For me, I never had to bother with that. When I deviated from the system, it was usually because other things got in the way, a project needed more attention than I thought, but usually the reason was plain old laziness. I was having more fun doing something else. The weekly version took away the guilt and kept me on time or a bit ahead despite my willfully ignoring my work for awhile. I suppose the flexibility ultimately helps me to stay mostly on time when I'm actually able to do the work. Being old and sick isn't for sissies!
Again, good luck on your lent challenge. I know that you'll have fun with it.
Learning
March 4, 2020 at 7:12 |
learning as I go
learning as I go
Hi all
FAKE NEWS UPDATE
My sister was forced to make a confession when she read my posts. Because I was threatening to discharge myself out of the hospital after all the blood and blood clotts stopped, she went into a secret plot with the nurses behind my back. She explained the situation to them. When she brought me the pizza, she had clamped my food iv. When she went through the motions of disconnecting me, they knew that also. She had promised them that I'd be gone not long.
The joke on her was that I was just complaining loudly. I was acting brave when I was really scare even though I was finally getting stable. She stayed several extra days at my home but was in constant contact with my doctor.
Initially, I wanted to murder her! Then I realized how much she actually loved me and how much my doctor cared despite being an awful patient for years!
THE LESSON? Cooperate more and be mindful of the gratitudes even the ones you might not know about. I am so shame-faced right now yet so grateful that my little team puts up with me. I'll start showing up for more tests, imaging and blood work rather than routinely blowing them off. I wasn't doing myself or the people who care about me any favors.
And, yes, she is over my shoulder right now! LOL!
Learning
p.s. NEVER follow my lead!
FAKE NEWS UPDATE
My sister was forced to make a confession when she read my posts. Because I was threatening to discharge myself out of the hospital after all the blood and blood clotts stopped, she went into a secret plot with the nurses behind my back. She explained the situation to them. When she brought me the pizza, she had clamped my food iv. When she went through the motions of disconnecting me, they knew that also. She had promised them that I'd be gone not long.
The joke on her was that I was just complaining loudly. I was acting brave when I was really scare even though I was finally getting stable. She stayed several extra days at my home but was in constant contact with my doctor.
Initially, I wanted to murder her! Then I realized how much she actually loved me and how much my doctor cared despite being an awful patient for years!
THE LESSON? Cooperate more and be mindful of the gratitudes even the ones you might not know about. I am so shame-faced right now yet so grateful that my little team puts up with me. I'll start showing up for more tests, imaging and blood work rather than routinely blowing them off. I wasn't doing myself or the people who care about me any favors.
And, yes, she is over my shoulder right now! LOL!
Learning
p.s. NEVER follow my lead!
March 8, 2020 at 22:17 |
learning as I go
learning as I go
Just this week, the sheen of a new productivity system is diminishing, and I noticed the itch to find something to replace it. But instead, I tried to notice what else was going on. And it turns out - a whole lot of personal and professional stuff. Some good, some not so good. But the culmination is... anxiety. I think I'm prone to cycling through productivity systems as a way to assuage anxiety. And like most avoidant activities, it does provide momentary relief... until it doesn't. And so I'm left with the spirit of - what I consider to be - one of the best self-help titles on the market: Wherever You Go, There You Are.
Curious if any of you have noticed the anxiety --> try a new productivity system/book --> get some momentary relief --> get anxious --> loop de loop :)
** We're All Gonna Die! from Hidden Brain in Podcasts. https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/hidden-brain/id1028908750?i=1000450029962