Discussion Forum > Do you favor starting or finishing?
Cameron:
Good question!
I think the answer will vary from person to person, but for me the answer is definitely "starting".
If I just aimed at finishing what I started, I wouldn't achieve very much because my natural self is quite capable of putting off starting a project indefinitely.
I can't claim that I finish every project I start, but I *can* claim that I don't finish any projects which I don't start!
Good question!
I think the answer will vary from person to person, but for me the answer is definitely "starting".
If I just aimed at finishing what I started, I wouldn't achieve very much because my natural self is quite capable of putting off starting a project indefinitely.
I can't claim that I finish every project I start, but I *can* claim that I don't finish any projects which I don't start!
March 20, 2021 at 0:29 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Finish!
Obviously you need to start before you can finish, and I need to pay attention to the start to get it started. But I also need to pay attention to the finish if I want to finish well, and I think it's more pertinent. I can too easily meander doing busy work that doesn't actually bring me to a positive completion. Therefore, I believe now in defining the finish line and aiming directly at that. As a guide, I also believe in defining intermediate milestones that aim me in the short term, and finishing those. If I know where I'm going and which way to get there, starting is easy.
Obviously you need to start before you can finish, and I need to pay attention to the start to get it started. But I also need to pay attention to the finish if I want to finish well, and I think it's more pertinent. I can too easily meander doing busy work that doesn't actually bring me to a positive completion. Therefore, I believe now in defining the finish line and aiming directly at that. As a guide, I also believe in defining intermediate milestones that aim me in the short term, and finishing those. If I know where I'm going and which way to get there, starting is easy.
March 20, 2021 at 14:42 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
<< Do you complete more projects by focusing on systems/processes geared toward "starting" or toward "finishing"? >>
For me, I think it depends on whether it's an "execution" kind of thing ("just get it done!"), or an "exploration" kind of thing ("just let it happen!").
If it's execution, then focusing on completing it as quickly and efficiently as possible gives me the best results. "Just get it done!"
If it's exploration, then I like to start and explore many threads and see where they lead.
Lately I am finding this to be my central concern in my personal time management -- how to find the best way to manage these two kinds of work with one system. It's also a central concern in organizational workflow -- for example, software development (meet delivery commitments versus experiment to find the right approach).
For me, I think it depends on whether it's an "execution" kind of thing ("just get it done!"), or an "exploration" kind of thing ("just let it happen!").
If it's execution, then focusing on completing it as quickly and efficiently as possible gives me the best results. "Just get it done!"
If it's exploration, then I like to start and explore many threads and see where they lead.
Lately I am finding this to be my central concern in my personal time management -- how to find the best way to manage these two kinds of work with one system. It's also a central concern in organizational workflow -- for example, software development (meet delivery commitments versus experiment to find the right approach).
March 20, 2021 at 16:03 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Thanks all for your comments.
<<I can't claim that I finish every project I start, but I *can* claim that I don't finish any projects which I don't start!>>
Mark, you can be so pithy. I love this forum.
I think one of the issues I've had with starting is that I sometimes abandon my scanning algorithm/system too early. I think if I just kept with the system for a period of time (say like...oh...I don't know...lent) then I could really see the benefits. I think for me something like simple scanning would work wonders for my personal tasks over a long haul. I just need to "ride the wave" of emotion that I get when I want to abandon it and go through the motions. With time, the projects will start finishing and I'll feel at ease.
I typically switch back and forth between GTD and simple scanning, but I've think I've stumbled a couple of things recently with my last round:
1. There is nothing I've found that does as good of a job as GTD for collecting, processing, and most of organizing. The one change on the organizing that I think makes more sense to me is to ask "is it actionable"? and if it is, then it simply goes on the long list. No separating into someday-maybe, waiting for, projects, next actions with contexts. If think I don't complete sufficient projects with simple scanning now, then I definitely get them less done with next actions in contexts. It really increases resistance for me to have them broken down into next actions by context.
2. GTD "reviewing" is not algorithmic, and as such leads me to very poor decision making on what to do next. I procrastinate like no other.
3. If large projects aren't moving in simple scanning, crossing it out and rewriting it as a smaller, more granular next action can help me. Sometimes it helps unstick things...but I don't think it's as essential as GTD proclaims.
The more I've thought about finishing and starting, I think it often comes back to limiting the number of projects on your plate versus having no limits (and weeding as necessary). This is probably at the heart of my question and something I've struggled with. I'm going to try focusing on starting again.
Alan, I read one of your posts from a decade ago:
http://markforster.squarespace.com/forum/post/1484918
Great insight. You would like the book "Work Clean" by Dan Charnas. I loved his principles, but didn't find that his Work Clean System of time management to be as effective as simple scanning. Nonetheless a great read.
<<I can't claim that I finish every project I start, but I *can* claim that I don't finish any projects which I don't start!>>
Mark, you can be so pithy. I love this forum.
I think one of the issues I've had with starting is that I sometimes abandon my scanning algorithm/system too early. I think if I just kept with the system for a period of time (say like...oh...I don't know...lent) then I could really see the benefits. I think for me something like simple scanning would work wonders for my personal tasks over a long haul. I just need to "ride the wave" of emotion that I get when I want to abandon it and go through the motions. With time, the projects will start finishing and I'll feel at ease.
I typically switch back and forth between GTD and simple scanning, but I've think I've stumbled a couple of things recently with my last round:
1. There is nothing I've found that does as good of a job as GTD for collecting, processing, and most of organizing. The one change on the organizing that I think makes more sense to me is to ask "is it actionable"? and if it is, then it simply goes on the long list. No separating into someday-maybe, waiting for, projects, next actions with contexts. If think I don't complete sufficient projects with simple scanning now, then I definitely get them less done with next actions in contexts. It really increases resistance for me to have them broken down into next actions by context.
2. GTD "reviewing" is not algorithmic, and as such leads me to very poor decision making on what to do next. I procrastinate like no other.
3. If large projects aren't moving in simple scanning, crossing it out and rewriting it as a smaller, more granular next action can help me. Sometimes it helps unstick things...but I don't think it's as essential as GTD proclaims.
The more I've thought about finishing and starting, I think it often comes back to limiting the number of projects on your plate versus having no limits (and weeding as necessary). This is probably at the heart of my question and something I've struggled with. I'm going to try focusing on starting again.
Alan, I read one of your posts from a decade ago:
http://markforster.squarespace.com/forum/post/1484918
Great insight. You would like the book "Work Clean" by Dan Charnas. I loved his principles, but didn't find that his Work Clean System of time management to be as effective as simple scanning. Nonetheless a great read.
March 23, 2021 at 3:00 |
Cameron
Cameron
Cameron:
<< I think if I just kept with the system for a period of time (say like...oh...I don't know...lent) then I could really see the benefits. >>
Yes, I'm sure you're right. I've always believed that if you stick to virtually any system for long enough you will get enormous benefits from it.
My first proper system was Simple Scanning. I didn't call it that, and I didn't appreciate quite what it did and why, but it worked considerably better for me than the system-less mess that I had before. Well enough in fact for me to get on top of my paid work so that I could train as a life coach in my spare time and set up a part-time business.
Get Everything Done saw me through giving up my paid job and working for myself as an author, coach and seminar-giver.
And then Autofocus came along as I retired completely and got myself involved in many other activities.
I've oversimplified that and left out some important stages on the way, but the point is that each of these methods worked for a considerable amount of time and got me through a crucial stage of my life. So I have no doubts at all that they do work if given a long enough period to get everything under control.
Maybe the Lent Challenge would work better if I specified one system which everyone had to use and refused to allow any other system to be mentioned in the comments or forum!
<< I think if I just kept with the system for a period of time (say like...oh...I don't know...lent) then I could really see the benefits. >>
Yes, I'm sure you're right. I've always believed that if you stick to virtually any system for long enough you will get enormous benefits from it.
My first proper system was Simple Scanning. I didn't call it that, and I didn't appreciate quite what it did and why, but it worked considerably better for me than the system-less mess that I had before. Well enough in fact for me to get on top of my paid work so that I could train as a life coach in my spare time and set up a part-time business.
Get Everything Done saw me through giving up my paid job and working for myself as an author, coach and seminar-giver.
And then Autofocus came along as I retired completely and got myself involved in many other activities.
I've oversimplified that and left out some important stages on the way, but the point is that each of these methods worked for a considerable amount of time and got me through a crucial stage of my life. So I have no doubts at all that they do work if given a long enough period to get everything under control.
Maybe the Lent Challenge would work better if I specified one system which everyone had to use and refused to allow any other system to be mentioned in the comments or forum!
March 23, 2021 at 8:43 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
My reply to Cameron above has made me think that the answer to his question about starting or finishing is that what's really important is what you do *between* starting and finishing.
“For when the One Great Scorer comes
To mark against your name,
He writes - not that you won or lost -
But HOW you played the Game.
"Alumnus Football”
― Grantland Rice
“For when the One Great Scorer comes
To mark against your name,
He writes - not that you won or lost -
But HOW you played the Game.
"Alumnus Football”
― Grantland Rice
March 23, 2021 at 8:51 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Deadlines have a negative impact on me emotionally for some reason . So I mentally have to focus on starting rather than finishing in a mind-game sort of way.
Recently I have decided that I start too many things and can get overwhelmed.
So I have changed my mindset and even have a post-it note on my monitor that says neither Finish or Start.
It says CONTINUE
Recently I have decided that I start too many things and can get overwhelmed.
So I have changed my mindset and even have a post-it note on my monitor that says neither Finish or Start.
It says CONTINUE
March 25, 2021 at 18:19 |
Brent
Brent
Brent, suppose instead of the deadline, as in a date, you set your attention on what Finished looks like. Would that scare you off the same way or would it help you go there?
March 25, 2021 at 19:37 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu:
<< suppose instead of the deadline, as in a date, you set your attention on what Finished looks like. >>
My problem with that is that establishing what Finished looks like is part of the process, i.e. something that you work on after you've started.
<< suppose instead of the deadline, as in a date, you set your attention on what Finished looks like. >>
My problem with that is that establishing what Finished looks like is part of the process, i.e. something that you work on after you've started.
March 25, 2021 at 20:12 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Consider it a moving target. "Plans are useless; planning is essential." Similarly, if you set your imagination to define a good outcome, you can work towards that, while also being prepared to provide more detail or change that outcome as you aim at it. Isn't that how your Dreams book describes the imagined future?
March 26, 2021 at 0:03 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu:
<< Isn't that how your Dreams book describes the imagined future? >>
Yes, and that's exactly what I just said. What Finished looks like is part of the process.
<< Isn't that how your Dreams book describes the imagined future? >>
Yes, and that's exactly what I just said. What Finished looks like is part of the process.
March 26, 2021 at 9:48 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
You said that’s a problem, and I’m saying it’s not a problem at all. It’s an advantage, because the focus on what Finished looks like is the driver. To put another way, I propose you should Start by directing your attention at the Finish. If you’re a Pioneer in Virginia heading West, you don’t know where you will settle, but you do have ideas of what sort of place you aim for, and that idea is what gets you started on the journey.
March 26, 2021 at 14:55 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu:
<< You said that’s a problem, and I’m saying it’s not a problem at all. >>
My problem was not with focusing on what Finishing looks like, which I totally agree with.
It was with your identification of it as being what you focus on to start with. Focusing on what Finishing looks like is part of the process which you undertake *after* you've started.
To use your example, you may have the idea of "going West" long before you start doing something about it. But it will remain a pipe-dream until you decide that you are actually going to start doing something about it. That decision is the start of the process by which you begin to look at exactly what you want and how you can achieve it. Without that start-point the process doesn't begin.
<< You said that’s a problem, and I’m saying it’s not a problem at all. >>
My problem was not with focusing on what Finishing looks like, which I totally agree with.
It was with your identification of it as being what you focus on to start with. Focusing on what Finishing looks like is part of the process which you undertake *after* you've started.
To use your example, you may have the idea of "going West" long before you start doing something about it. But it will remain a pipe-dream until you decide that you are actually going to start doing something about it. That decision is the start of the process by which you begin to look at exactly what you want and how you can achieve it. Without that start-point the process doesn't begin.
March 26, 2021 at 17:41 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Is it correct to say that the focus on starting that you speak of Mark is really another way of saying, focus on taking action? If you continue to take action on things, then assuming that you are orienting yourself in mostly the right direction and learning, you should make progress. But I imagine that if you think of starting as beginning something that you had not previously started before, then focusing on starting would be a good thing if you had nothing started, but would quickly begin to result in way too many projects on the table, because you would look at your existing projects and say, "those are already started, what's new that I can start next?" and you would end up starting yet another project, and there would be no end to those, simply because you're always able to start a new project, but continuing to take action on existing projects is the hard part.
I think the focus on starting or finishing might really come down to which perspective results in you taking the most number of consistent actions in a unified direction towards your larger goals, yes? If you won't take action because you're focusing on finishing something else, but you're also not taking action on finishing that other things consistently, then you're being less than optimal. On the other hand, if you're focused on starting things, but then you start them and then never take any action on any of them again or you let them stop before they are done, and just let them die, over and over again, then that's also a problem.
I think the focus on starting or finishing might really come down to which perspective results in you taking the most number of consistent actions in a unified direction towards your larger goals, yes? If you won't take action because you're focusing on finishing something else, but you're also not taking action on finishing that other things consistently, then you're being less than optimal. On the other hand, if you're focused on starting things, but then you start them and then never take any action on any of them again or you let them stop before they are done, and just let them die, over and over again, then that's also a problem.
March 27, 2021 at 3:11 |
Aaron Hsu
Aaron Hsu
Aaron Hsu:
<< Is it correct to say that the focus on starting that you speak of Mark is really another way of saying, focus on taking action? >>
Yes.
Cameron's question though was "Do you favour starting or finishing?". To which my answer is definitely "starting" because you can't finish without starting.
But what is really important is the bit between starting and finishing.
So it's not Start > Finish, but Start > Act ( > Finish).
I've put "Finish" in brackets because many projects don't have an end. When do I finish my project to learn French, or keep fit, or record all the species of bird entering my garden? One can certainly have phases or milestones to aim at, but which are part of larger projects which have no end.
Looking down my task list at the moment, the vast majority of tasks are recurring and will continue to recur for as long as I am still capable of doing them.
I also think there is an important role for things which have been started and then allowed to die. That is that you actually have to start quite a lot of things in order to find the ones that you are going to succeed in running with. It's not a good idea to take that to excess of course!
<< Is it correct to say that the focus on starting that you speak of Mark is really another way of saying, focus on taking action? >>
Yes.
Cameron's question though was "Do you favour starting or finishing?". To which my answer is definitely "starting" because you can't finish without starting.
But what is really important is the bit between starting and finishing.
So it's not Start > Finish, but Start > Act ( > Finish).
I've put "Finish" in brackets because many projects don't have an end. When do I finish my project to learn French, or keep fit, or record all the species of bird entering my garden? One can certainly have phases or milestones to aim at, but which are part of larger projects which have no end.
Looking down my task list at the moment, the vast majority of tasks are recurring and will continue to recur for as long as I am still capable of doing them.
I also think there is an important role for things which have been started and then allowed to die. That is that you actually have to start quite a lot of things in order to find the ones that you are going to succeed in running with. It's not a good idea to take that to excess of course!
March 27, 2021 at 11:20 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
I think we have reached concordance. When starting a diet, the first step may or may not be to set a target weight. It may be to research methods. It may be you just had a notion to lose weight and heard of a technique and your starting point is simply to enact the rules handed to you.
But many things can start and don’t reach a conclusion. If they are allowed to die, then maybe nothing was achieved. But maybe you achieved a realization that it was better off not carrying on to achieve a goal. I suggest often you want to make that deliberate: I abandon this thing. And now I call that effort Finished. Make it explicit, and your achievement is learning what not to spend more time on.
And yes many tasks are perpetual. They don’t finish. But for the ones that do, that is where I set my focus.
But many things can start and don’t reach a conclusion. If they are allowed to die, then maybe nothing was achieved. But maybe you achieved a realization that it was better off not carrying on to achieve a goal. I suggest often you want to make that deliberate: I abandon this thing. And now I call that effort Finished. Make it explicit, and your achievement is learning what not to spend more time on.
And yes many tasks are perpetual. They don’t finish. But for the ones that do, that is where I set my focus.
March 27, 2021 at 12:19 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
I don't disagree with the thoughts here. It is a fun discussion.
To answer your direct question Alan, my problem is with dates. Not finishing. So your idea sits well with me.
I like setting intentions, goals and "destinations" and often that includes fleshing out what finished looks like. Sometimes the final product or destination is close to what I imagined but not fully the same and that is OK.
If my only intention of a vacation/holiday to the beach, for example, is to finish it by Monday so I could go back to work, then I think I've missed the point entirely. Starting the vacation was important and Yes, I did have to be to work on Monday so finishing was important too but once started, focusing on getting back by Monday would have been a mistake and my focus should have been on the act of enjoying the beach :)
To answer your direct question Alan, my problem is with dates. Not finishing. So your idea sits well with me.
I like setting intentions, goals and "destinations" and often that includes fleshing out what finished looks like. Sometimes the final product or destination is close to what I imagined but not fully the same and that is OK.
If my only intention of a vacation/holiday to the beach, for example, is to finish it by Monday so I could go back to work, then I think I've missed the point entirely. Starting the vacation was important and Yes, I did have to be to work on Monday so finishing was important too but once started, focusing on getting back by Monday would have been a mistake and my focus should have been on the act of enjoying the beach :)
March 30, 2021 at 19:05 |
Brent
Brent
In his excellent book "Work Clean" Dan Charnas proposes that we work more like a chef, who is focused on "excellence delivered" for each order. He has a chapter devoted to "finishing what you start."
Kanban has a saying called "stop starting, start finishing". It tends to focus on finishing up something before another thing can be started (by applying limits).
Mark has mentioned that some of his systems are geared toward finishing, and others starting. Just get the file out a great example of starting.
In the book "The Now Habit" one of the principles "focus on starting, and keep starting". He admonishes to replace all thoughts of finishing with starting.
I'm not certain which I favor yet:
Sometimes focusing on finishing really ramps up my motivation because I want to get to other things in my "backlog/options/someday-maybe" category. In a way it feel a little like push and pull into the action at the same time. The action pulls me into completing it, and sometimes I push myself to work a little longer/harder than I normally would to put a bow on it and get it off my plate.
Focusing on starting can really remove resistance to procrastination for me. Long listsand simple scanning has worked well for this, but I often don't finish projects up very well. My projects move along as a snails pace, and it often vexes me.
It seems finishing is geared more toward "limiting" the number of active projects/actions. Starting may be a little more geared toward unlimited active projects, and let you intuition dictate which ones to continue working until they are finished...a more organic approach (but that could just be my perception).
What about you?