Discussion Forum > The Benefits of being Messy
Mark H.
<< The author seems to lean to giving examples where the lack of tidiness, order, system, and the presence of the imperfect, cluttered, and random actually are the conditions from which creativity can spring. >>
I think there's a lot of truth in that.
For instance, I occasionally get people writing in or commenting to ask why I don't tidy up this website so that the messages are clear, all the different methods are neatly categorised and indexed, and so on. Occasionally I get afflicted by the disease myself and go on a spring-cleaning mission to get it all in order.
But guess what happens. I get distracted by reading old posts and comments and following up links and reminding myself of good and bad ideas from the past. So the spring-cleaning never gets done.
It at that stage that I remind myself that this is exactly how one is supposed to read this website - following up leads, unearthing nooks and crannies, reminding oneself of forgotten lessons, turning up hidden treasure. And so on.
<< The author seems to lean to giving examples where the lack of tidiness, order, system, and the presence of the imperfect, cluttered, and random actually are the conditions from which creativity can spring. >>
I think there's a lot of truth in that.
For instance, I occasionally get people writing in or commenting to ask why I don't tidy up this website so that the messages are clear, all the different methods are neatly categorised and indexed, and so on. Occasionally I get afflicted by the disease myself and go on a spring-cleaning mission to get it all in order.
But guess what happens. I get distracted by reading old posts and comments and following up links and reminding myself of good and bad ideas from the past. So the spring-cleaning never gets done.
It at that stage that I remind myself that this is exactly how one is supposed to read this website - following up leads, unearthing nooks and crannies, reminding oneself of forgotten lessons, turning up hidden treasure. And so on.
June 10, 2021 at 11:44 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
I maybe should have put the title of the post with a question mark, because I am not sure what to make of this book. I have read some reviews on Amazon, and someone said that there could have been practical tips on what to do. As I think about the book more now, the word "messy" and "disorder" would be too extreme to apply some of his examples.
He says "the argument of this book is that we often succumb to the temptation of a tidy-minded approach when we would be better served by embracing a degree of mess."
And later "Sometimes, of course, our desire for tidiness...can be helpful. It wouldn't be such a deeply rooted instinct if it weren't helpful. But often we are seduced by the blandishments of tidiness that we fail to appreciate the virtues of the messy - the untidy, unquantified, uncoordinated, improvised, imperfect, incoherent, crude, cluttered, random, ambiguous, vague, difficult, diverse, or even dirty."
He uses the example of Keith Jarrett, who was tempted to pass up the opportunity to make the recording of his life because he didn't want to work with bad tools. So "when you are tempted by tidiness, to embrace some mess instead."
"I will stand up for messiness not because I think messiness is the answer to all life's problems, but because I think messiness has too few defenders. I want to convince you that there can sometimes be a certain magic in mess."
I don't think the author is advocating any course of action, just an awareness and attitude. There are a lot of self-help books like this now. There is a whole subdivision of the Personal Growth section at the bookstore devoted to "Back to the Basics", that seek to correct the imbalance caused by the other self-help books.
He says "the argument of this book is that we often succumb to the temptation of a tidy-minded approach when we would be better served by embracing a degree of mess."
And later "Sometimes, of course, our desire for tidiness...can be helpful. It wouldn't be such a deeply rooted instinct if it weren't helpful. But often we are seduced by the blandishments of tidiness that we fail to appreciate the virtues of the messy - the untidy, unquantified, uncoordinated, improvised, imperfect, incoherent, crude, cluttered, random, ambiguous, vague, difficult, diverse, or even dirty."
He uses the example of Keith Jarrett, who was tempted to pass up the opportunity to make the recording of his life because he didn't want to work with bad tools. So "when you are tempted by tidiness, to embrace some mess instead."
"I will stand up for messiness not because I think messiness is the answer to all life's problems, but because I think messiness has too few defenders. I want to convince you that there can sometimes be a certain magic in mess."
I don't think the author is advocating any course of action, just an awareness and attitude. There are a lot of self-help books like this now. There is a whole subdivision of the Personal Growth section at the bookstore devoted to "Back to the Basics", that seek to correct the imbalance caused by the other self-help books.
June 10, 2021 at 12:25 |
Mark H.
Mark H.
This reminded me of a post I wrote to my blog years ago about information management, contrasting Sherlock Holmes' "every fact has its place" with a passage from Robertson Davies' novel "Tempest-Tost".
My post (it's short): https://brownstudy.info/2012/08/10/robertson-davies-on.html
The Davies quote is one of my favorites and is kind of germane to this topic, so I'll trot it out here. This is a little speech by the novel's Bohemian music master:
" 'Oho, now I know what you are. You are an advocate of Useful Knowledge. ... Well, allow me to introduce myself to you as an advocate of Ornamental Knowledge. You like the mind to be a neat machine, equipped to work efficiently, if narrowly, and with no extra bits or useless parts. I like the mind to be a dustbin of scraps of brilliant fabric, odd gems, worthless but fascinating curiosities, tinsel, quaint bits of carving, and a reasonable amount of healthy dirt. Shake the machine and it goes out of order; shake the dustbin and it adjusts itself beautifully to its new position.' "
My post (it's short): https://brownstudy.info/2012/08/10/robertson-davies-on.html
The Davies quote is one of my favorites and is kind of germane to this topic, so I'll trot it out here. This is a little speech by the novel's Bohemian music master:
" 'Oho, now I know what you are. You are an advocate of Useful Knowledge. ... Well, allow me to introduce myself to you as an advocate of Ornamental Knowledge. You like the mind to be a neat machine, equipped to work efficiently, if narrowly, and with no extra bits or useless parts. I like the mind to be a dustbin of scraps of brilliant fabric, odd gems, worthless but fascinating curiosities, tinsel, quaint bits of carving, and a reasonable amount of healthy dirt. Shake the machine and it goes out of order; shake the dustbin and it adjusts itself beautifully to its new position.' "
June 10, 2021 at 14:34 |
Mike Brown
Mike Brown
There's a theme that keeps popping up in my reading recently, that our neat and tidy mind (sometimes known as left brain) is not as powerful as the part of our mind that is equipped to address the world more broadly. That mind is equipped to engage chaos, and to create. Attempts to narrow everything down to structure and procedure are attempts to suppress our more powerful thinking tool. Yet if you make no attempt to organize anything, you are also neglecting a tool at our disposal. We need both.
June 10, 2021 at 14:58 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Interesting topic. I agree with Alan's final sentence. We need both. But maybe the trick is stick with macro organization vs micro organization. Even the un-tuned piano still had keys... a dustbin is a container and this website is generally one topic.
I paint a lot and my favorite paintings to look at are very "loose" I can look at them over and over again and see new things each time. The more a painting looks like an actual photograph the less I engage with it.
Brent
I paint a lot and my favorite paintings to look at are very "loose" I can look at them over and over again and see new things each time. The more a painting looks like an actual photograph the less I engage with it.
Brent
June 11, 2021 at 16:45 |
Brent
Brent
One thing that I've noticed that is funny in our society: if somebody is quite organized in their closets, or garages or anywhere (think aesthetically-pleasing-to-look-at organized), outside observers almost always label them OCD. Why is that? Can somebody just be organized without being OCD?
I tend to lean more towards cleanliness and order foster more creativity for me. I feel more open and breathe easier when I'm not drowning in clutter, digital or physical.
I tend to lean more towards cleanliness and order foster more creativity for me. I feel more open and breathe easier when I'm not drowning in clutter, digital or physical.
June 12, 2021 at 3:03 |
Cameron
Cameron
I've been listening to an audiobook on the brain written and narrated by neuroscientist Indre Viskontas.
Two of her summing-up conclusions are: the brain (and I think she's really talking about the mind here) is not perfectly designed; it is messy, random, inefficient, full of shortcuts to help us perceive and move through the world. But the brain's power lies in its interconnectedness; no brain region can work without connection to its other regions; the brain wires and rewires itself with time and experience. And if we're alive to how our minds work (ie Kahneman's "fast and slow" modes), we can work with its shortcomings to really leverage its strengths.
Two of her summing-up conclusions are: the brain (and I think she's really talking about the mind here) is not perfectly designed; it is messy, random, inefficient, full of shortcuts to help us perceive and move through the world. But the brain's power lies in its interconnectedness; no brain region can work without connection to its other regions; the brain wires and rewires itself with time and experience. And if we're alive to how our minds work (ie Kahneman's "fast and slow" modes), we can work with its shortcomings to really leverage its strengths.
June 12, 2021 at 15:55 |
Mike Brown
Mike Brown
The author of the book in the original post is Tim Harford. He is on Youtube, and has a number of TED talks, and interviews on this subject. In one of the short videos, he does start off with a tidy desk and a messy desk. He uses the word "mess" in the book to describe many things, but I think "mess" or "disorder" does not fit much of what he is writing about. For example, working on multiple projects, improvising, diverse communities.
As Mike Brown said in his post, I think the author is really talking about the interconnectness of the parts of the brain, and that some of what he calls "mess" gives the condition for the brain to interact, or form new connections.
For example, there might be a jigsaw puzzle of the painting of the Last Supper. If all the pieces were scattered, that to me would be a mess or disorder. This would be chaos. However, one person might be motivated to put the pieces together - to create order. But other people wouldn't. Here the chaos is not in itself good. (But it is prelude for the act of creation). Let's say, most of the pieces are fitted properly, but a few are out of place and not attached yet. This would not be a mess, or disorder if one could make out that this puzzle was of the Last Supper. But it would be incomplete and imperfect. Someone might be motivated to fit the remaining pieces together and solve the puzzle and exercise his brain in a creative way. But also one could say that person is motivated to create order, neatness, and tidyness. Later, someone comes and puts all the pieces back in the box. The puzzle has returned to being a mess, chaos.
I would have a hard time saying that the chaos or mess is good itself. When I think of mess, I think of your bowl of soup that has spilled on the floor, and someone has to clean it up. To me it's the inbetween state. So like the jigsaw puzzle where a few pieces are missing, the brain tries to make sense out of a situation that doesn't make complete sense, and needs to fit the pieces of the brain together to form the connection or new connections. So randomness, incompleteness, diversity, ambiguity prods the brain. But it isn't the messy desk per se that is responsible.
As Mike Brown said in his post, I think the author is really talking about the interconnectness of the parts of the brain, and that some of what he calls "mess" gives the condition for the brain to interact, or form new connections.
For example, there might be a jigsaw puzzle of the painting of the Last Supper. If all the pieces were scattered, that to me would be a mess or disorder. This would be chaos. However, one person might be motivated to put the pieces together - to create order. But other people wouldn't. Here the chaos is not in itself good. (But it is prelude for the act of creation). Let's say, most of the pieces are fitted properly, but a few are out of place and not attached yet. This would not be a mess, or disorder if one could make out that this puzzle was of the Last Supper. But it would be incomplete and imperfect. Someone might be motivated to fit the remaining pieces together and solve the puzzle and exercise his brain in a creative way. But also one could say that person is motivated to create order, neatness, and tidyness. Later, someone comes and puts all the pieces back in the box. The puzzle has returned to being a mess, chaos.
I would have a hard time saying that the chaos or mess is good itself. When I think of mess, I think of your bowl of soup that has spilled on the floor, and someone has to clean it up. To me it's the inbetween state. So like the jigsaw puzzle where a few pieces are missing, the brain tries to make sense out of a situation that doesn't make complete sense, and needs to fit the pieces of the brain together to form the connection or new connections. So randomness, incompleteness, diversity, ambiguity prods the brain. But it isn't the messy desk per se that is responsible.
June 12, 2021 at 19:55 |
Mark H.
Mark H.
All right, the author actually has a video just about a messy desk.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0vyP3ECiaY
In his book he quotes another book, and sure enough in this book, the word "mess" is actually defined, and one chapter is devoted to the basic types of mess.
A Perfect Mess
The Hidden Benefits of Disorder - How Crammed Closets, Cluttered Offices, and On-the-Fly Planning Make the World a Better Place
By Eric Abrahamson, David H. Freedman · 2007
https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_Perfect_Mess/GWjfLAwlDawC?hl=en
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0vyP3ECiaY
In his book he quotes another book, and sure enough in this book, the word "mess" is actually defined, and one chapter is devoted to the basic types of mess.
A Perfect Mess
The Hidden Benefits of Disorder - How Crammed Closets, Cluttered Offices, and On-the-Fly Planning Make the World a Better Place
By Eric Abrahamson, David H. Freedman · 2007
https://www.google.com/books/edition/A_Perfect_Mess/GWjfLAwlDawC?hl=en
June 13, 2021 at 2:28 |
Mark H.
Mark H.
Starting on page 236 of the Messy book, the author writes about the pile on the desk, just as he does in the video, and compares it to the Yukio Noguchi filing system, without the envelopes.
http://markforster.squarespace.com/blog/2008/6/9/noguchi-filing-system.html
He also quotes from the Perfect Mess book, pages 156-157 - stack the papers vertically in a pile on the desk, without the envelopes, and when the paper is used to put it on the top of the pile.
Question: Is the principle similar to Autofocus?
http://markforster.squarespace.com/blog/2008/6/9/noguchi-filing-system.html
He also quotes from the Perfect Mess book, pages 156-157 - stack the papers vertically in a pile on the desk, without the envelopes, and when the paper is used to put it on the top of the pile.
Question: Is the principle similar to Autofocus?
June 13, 2021 at 4:19 |
Mark H.
Mark H.
The principle of everything in one unordered pile is very similar to AutoFocus' "everything in one unordered list". Not only that, but in both systems, the thing you touched last is on top / at the end. More specifically, because of the stack nature, you will be searching this pile in AF2 order.
Noguchi recommended a sideways file instead of vertical, so it's easier to scan through documents. This allows more flexibility and less effort to find things. You're never going to be constantly scanning your files so there's no question of algorithms. Only Simple Scanning where you have a goal for locating documents for a singular purpose would ever come into play.
Incidentally, I recently made a horizontal filing setup I like, 6 foot long with hanging folders and divisions every span. (I didn't choose a span; that's just how the hardware was). I organized by category though, and by date within the category.
Noguchi recommended a sideways file instead of vertical, so it's easier to scan through documents. This allows more flexibility and less effort to find things. You're never going to be constantly scanning your files so there's no question of algorithms. Only Simple Scanning where you have a goal for locating documents for a singular purpose would ever come into play.
Incidentally, I recently made a horizontal filing setup I like, 6 foot long with hanging folders and divisions every span. (I didn't choose a span; that's just how the hardware was). I organized by category though, and by date within the category.
June 15, 2021 at 17:59 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
In one of my books (I forget which) I take issue with the modern fetish for "best practice". I suggest politely that if everyone has to adhere to the current definition of "best practice" where is the future "even better practice" going to come from?
June 19, 2021 at 17:35 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Alan Baljeu:
<< More specifically, because of the stack nature, you will be searching this pile in AF2 order. >>
Yes, that's right. That is exactly how AF2 works. It's not totally obvious because in AF2 the action is at the bottom instead of the top, but that is just the different nature of lists and piles.
I didn't get on very well with Noguchi for papers as I found the envelopes too fiddly to handle. But I still use the system for my books and for my files.
<< More specifically, because of the stack nature, you will be searching this pile in AF2 order. >>
Yes, that's right. That is exactly how AF2 works. It's not totally obvious because in AF2 the action is at the bottom instead of the top, but that is just the different nature of lists and piles.
I didn't get on very well with Noguchi for papers as I found the envelopes too fiddly to handle. But I still use the system for my books and for my files.
June 19, 2021 at 17:52 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
http://www.amazon.com/Messy-Power-Disorder-Transform-Lives/dp/1594634793
The book starts with the story of jazz pianist Keith Jarrett's solo Koln concert. The wrong piano accidently had been placed on stage, which was so out of tune and unplayable that Jarrett refused to play, and had to be persuaded. He compensated for the deficiencies of the piano, and produced his masterpiece.
http://www.npr.org/transcripts/719557642
The book lays out the case to embrace a degree of messiness, distraction, disorder.
page 5 "Each chapter explores a different aspect of messiness."
page 25: top scientists would switch subjects and juggle projects, have a network of enterprises, which encourages cross-fertilization.
Chapter 4 on Improvisation: discusses jazz musicians like Miles Davis. Martin Luther King let go of his typewritten script in the middle ot his speech to deliver impromptu the climax of his "I Have A Dream" speech.
page 212: Jane Jacobs, diversified cities and neighborhoods are more innovative and resilient than specialized, segregated ones.
page 232: Benjamin Franklin had a list of thirteen virtues which he regularly used to examine himself, but had the most trouble with Order. Strangers were amazed at the sight of the untidiness of his papers. (Not in the book, but on the internet - John Adams, who lodged with Franklin in France, was disappointed that the "early to bed, early to rise" Franklin actually partied until midnight, and ate breakfast at 10 am.) On the limits of the benefits of organizing one's files, emails, calendar.
There is research, with footnotes, and anecdotes to back up his points. The question could be asked: Does the creativity come in spite of the disorder or is it enhanced by it? The author seems to lean to giving examples where the lack of tidiness, order, system, and the presence of the imperfect, cluttered, and random actually are the conditions from which creativity can spring. 294 pages.