Get Everything Done

I have real tendency to over-think things with regards to projects. Give me as many single step actions as you like and away I go without any problems. But put a project in front of me, something that requires numerous steps, I really start to flounder.

I have no problems with continuous projects, its just really organisational ones that seem to cause me issue.

Firstly I am still not sure of the best way to handle projects with a Closed List. Having an item 'Work on Project A' on my Closed List, then leads me to that project list of actions. Should the items on the project list be Closed as well? Is that what is meant by a subordinate Closed List? That's how I understood it to mean, you follow the Closed List principle through at all steps.

Or alternatively should I move project actions I am going to do, onto the daily Closed List? The only difference I see with this approach is actions can become a little disconnected from the project.

I know DIT is not specifically aimed at projects/project management but I really can't decide on the best way to handle things.

Recently I experimented with just doing one project at time. Previously I had done the same project but with actions spread over a number of days. As I had timed this project it seemed like a good benchmark for trying a focussed approach. I was a little shocked to find the project done in a focussed manner took me just under two hours. The project I had done with actions spread over a number of days, had taken me just under eight hours. Now even if I allow myself time for slow starting, getting up to speed etc. It still appears to be a significant difference. No learning curve involved etc, I already knew how to do the necessary actions. The only difference in the projects was the focus.

So again bearing that in mind it would appear better to perhaps work from a subordinate Closed List with regards to projects. But then my Daily Closed list won't be a true reflection of my outstanding work. Agrrhhhhhhhhh ... as you can see. I kind of go around in circles to an extent.

Any advice on how to handle projects in conjunction with a Closed List?

All the best

Steve

Hmm yes projects. They are the last section of my organiser I still need to resolve.

At the moment, my usual approach is to finish a project task on my list today and write the next task down to be done tomorrow. My problem with this approach is it relies on me remembering to write down the next action and I can sometimes lose track of my projects.

David Allen in his book Getting Things Done has ideas on how to manage tasks associated with projects, but I have not yet managed to resolve this approach with the ideas from Do it tomorrow and Get everything done!

Hi Steve
I'm not sure I can articulate this very well, but here goes....
1. I keep a projects master list
2. Each project has it's own folder much like a physician's patient folder. On the left is a dated action log. On the right is the actual generated materials.
3. On my closed list, I simply write the name of the project and the day's goal either expressed by action or a timebox. Then I refer to the folder to guide me.
4. Many times I can carry out the work intuitively or work from an action tree I composed. If it's either a very important project with a deadline or an important project that I don't particularly relish doing, my main mission is to keep starting on it until I've reached my day's goal. Sometimes I only need one start to prime the pump. (I'm grateful when this occurs! LOL!: especially if it's a project I dread doing! LOL!) But, alas, sometimes I need to start several times to add up to meet my goal for the day.

I'm not saying it's going to be pleasant, but it's certainly doable. If I'm particularly stubborn, I'll commit to a 5minute start followed by another closed list task and keep doing that until I've completed what I aimed for. It's certainly not elegant, but it gets the stuff done.

I forgot, I ALWAYS chose either the most dreaded or the most important/satisfying thing first. Even when I'm rotating my tasks, I always START with the worst first. More times than not, that mindset aides me in getting the damn thing off my list sooner than later. Everyday my main mission is to squelch the nag monster first and then I have a *free mind* to take on the enticing stuff (which is sometimes more important but doesn't require any prompting!)

You have many great ideas that I have used. I'm sure you'll find one for this as well.
Good luck with this!
learning as I go

Hi Steve
Upon rereading my post, I forgot to mention....When I'm stubborn and my rx is to commit to a 5minute start on the dreaded project and followed by an alternate closed list task as a pressure release escape, I don't necessarily stop after the 5minutes. If I want to keep going, I certainly do so! I only have the alternate task at the ready to keep myself ticking off the list during my work time. This method relates primarily to my daily WORST FIRST task. Unfortunately, I'm rarely without at least one of these every work day! LOL!
These tricks are mainly to allow myself to start without trepidation! LOL! Even in my work slack mode, I can do 5minutes at a time for the dreaded thing and sandwhich it in with other closed list items. My wish is to just get it done in the first chunk of work but I'll do whatever it takes to get the damn thing done.
What I'm saying is....these workarounds are set up to reassure my stubborn self that I can get the dreaded stuff done even if it's done in several STARTS! Sometimes STARTING and reSTARTING until it's done is the only way my stubborn self will *allow* me to get the thing done. I NEVER allow another task to cause me to stop when I've created a willingness to get it done! LOL! Some folks say to stop before you're done to create more impetus to get back to it, but that method doesn't work for me. It's the STARTING that's the hardest for me so I focus on that whilst relishing the idea of it leaving my list ASAP! The sooner I'm done with the dreaded stuff, the sooner the nag monster leaves my head! When there's no remaining nag factor, the rest of my desirable aims are actually more fun and challenging because my mind is clear and unfettered. Does this make any sense? LOL!
learning as I go

I admit I have tendency to over-think things as a whole. Somebody mentioned to me I might have a trait of whole systems thinking, which is possibly true. When I implement even a minor change to my system I have to see how it impacts all the way through. So in essence I think I lack a certain amount of intuitive flow. I don't think most people would see the issues I see as necessarily issues at all.

I think part of my problem is my general view of projects. I have tried to take the view that anything that requires more than one action step is a project, but that doesn't fit with me that well. I think it has something to do with what the word 'project' conjures up in my mind. To me its something that's involved, has many steps, milestones, etc. It wouldn't be something like cleaning the garage, though I understand how that can be turned into a project. In a way I would probably turn it into a sort of project by using a checklist, I love checklists. But I distinguish between a checklist and a project action list. A checklist to me is a list of items that need to be done but in no particular order, a project action list has structure, phases, needs to be done in probably a specific order.

Ultimately my issue at the moment I think is what does the Closed List represent? Or what is it suppose to represent? If you don't assign project actions to the list, then there is a risk that although the main list is Closed. Any subordinate lists, unless pre-planned, could be open. Unless you assign times or block of chunks of time for projects, 'Work on Project A' could mean anything from 5 minutes to 5 hours.

In a way if you are using other lists, you are in essence maintaining multiple Closed Lists. With these other Closed Lists does the same principle apply, in today, on tomorrows list?

To me there are two approaches you can take, move specific project actions onto the Closed List. Which then gives you a list which shows a true reflection of your outstanding workload. That is nice to see, and it also maintains the Closed List ethos. But the downside is it detaches to an extent project actions from the project itself. Not so sure that is a good thing, because I would of thought sustained focus on the project is better than fractured focus. I also think it adds more of a level of resistance, if you don't feel like doing the project actions you have assigned to your list.

The second approach is to 'Work on Project A', focus on the project specifically. But then there is a risk you can get too absorbed with that particular project, you may end up performing actions that were not planned. Your main Closed List no longer represents your entire workload its Closed List + Project A List, Project B List, which in a way could possibly over stretch you.

I do like the idea of specifying a goal for a project, what you hope to achieve today. That is a good idea.

What I think I am after is a definition of what the Closed List represents as far as Projects are concerned. Are the items on the Closed List really there to be used as an entry point into a Project, a sort of bookmark if you like. Or is the Closed List meant to be a true representation of my daily workload, single step actions + Project Actions?

I know DIT covers projects, but is not specifically concerned with project management, and I have benefited from the Continuous and Organisational approach. As mentioned I have no problems with continuous projects, and for the most part if possible I will turn an organisational project into a continuous project if that is feasible. It just I am not sure how to view organisational projects and how they interact with the main Closed List. If the main Closed List is just meant to be an entry point into the project, that would make sense. Then you access the relevant project support materials. Alternatively if the Closed List is meant to be a true representation of workload, then it would make sense to add project actions to the list.

Like I say, and as you can probably see, I go round and round in circles on this one. I know I am over-thinking things again for sure. But its just niggling at me at the moment.

All the best

Steve

Hi Steve
On another forum, you and I discussed Whole Systems Thinking. True, it can be hard to apply to linear-based methods......that's why I've *stretched* my personal definition of the closed list. Since, I, too, am a whole systems thinker and TOTALLY understand and experience what you're experiencing, I simply decided to make it work for me. This how I do it....
1. I timebox my office hours....period. Afterwards, I must wait until the next working day. This is helpful because it minimizes my tolerance for distractions (both external and internal! LOL!)
2. I write my closed list as an outline of what I WILL accomplish today. If I accomplish more, great! But I do not tolerate accomplishing less (unless an unforeseen complication occurs, in which case, I let it go because I can't always prophesize how creative endeavors workout. The linear stuff I can control...
I ALWAYS make this list with PLENTY of flex time to absort the unforeseeable stuff......who knows if your heater is going to break or if that painting just doesn't translate like my mental view of it, etc....
3. This flexibility allows me to go with the flow on important endeavors. You will learn how to guage your focus and work to match your office hours. It takes awhile.
4. I need the mix of structure plus flexibility to be successful.
5. I need the mixture of easy one-offs, linear projects and challenging creative work to bounce off each other and to match them to my focus and energy/pain levels.
6. If I'm on a roll with a creative or challenging project, I don't mind adding a few one-offs to tomorrow's list. I'm willing to use my judgement on this. Hint: Listen to your nag monster/feed him first and the rest is infinitely easier.
7. After I complete my closed list, I either close shop early, or PROUDLY add more to below the list.

Bottom Line: Mark Forster's system is wonderful because it's BOTH structured and flexible! Make the system and *rules* work for the way YOU OPERATE....and that may be different from time to time! I like working everything as a symbiotic whole. The center motive is quality of life and the rest are categories that dovetail this theme.
We have to see the overall map to feel confident enough to start! We are alike on this. I also use a weekly Master plan to work from as well. It all has to make sense . I know you understand what Imean by this!......LOL! We aren't A,B,C type thinkers....We can freely skip around our overall map as long as we see the Grand Design of our Plan to have an unfettered motives and the second most important part...impetus! LOL!
In short, make your closed list make sense to your own personalized idea your Grand Plan and implement it any way that works for you. If you need to define each of the rules that govern it's operation, then do so in alignment with your natural way of thinking, organizing and planning.
You are incrediblly intelligent.....use it to CREATE your rules and methodology. Mark Forster had gifted us with a great structure and plan....but I'm sure even he tweaks it from time to time to fit his current self and current needs/goals......
Please post your progress.......as I always learn from your thinking! (Is that too greedy of me? lol!)
learning as I go

Hi Steve
Since I'm a highly intuitive worker, I rely on my closed list as the structure itself. But I was thinking that maybe if I learned how to think more like you, I might learn from a rules in place thinker. I always have my overall map in my head but I've never really thought too much about rules for bringint it to fruition except for the aspects I don't like doing...Until my brain injuries and pain issues, I never had much challenge getting my work done (both mundane and creative. It's always been to get the onerous stuff done first and then follow my bliss via projects.....
Mark Forster's Closed List is the first thing that I can actually implement without too much hassle....I hope I haven't distorted it too much....but my way works for me....although I'm always willing to test run alternate methods and reasons.......
I'm curious to discover your way of doing it. My way of thinking is sort of like an overview map and my various subset lists as clickable views in a PIM! LOL! Imagine a synthesis of MindMap and MyLifeOrganized and you'll get an idea of my way of thinking......add a button that turns it into a kaleidescope and you'll see why I'm so grateful for Mark Forster's closed list. It's like reading a map to a place I've been to before but forgotten until the map cues me to retreiving my knowledge base and well of intentions......AAAKKKKK!
learning as I go

Hi, learning as I go.... I think I have twigged who you are !! :o)

To me its like a big jigsaw puzzle, I have most of it done but I lack the odd piece. Or I have the piece and I am just not sure which way around it goes. Because I concentrate so much on that one piece, I tend to almost forget what the picture is that I am trying to make overall.

I think part of it stems from a need to procrastinate. Because the Closed List and the DIT approach has made me a lot more efficient, I no longer procrastinate about the work so much. Its the system I tend to poke holes in and look for problems. Problems I would say more than solutions.

I think I will try your idea of creating a general project task, but defining a goal of how much I want to achieve on that project. Be that in time, or the number of tasks etc. If I postfix tasks with a quick summary, then my Closed List can still be a good indicator of total workload. So 'Work on Project A + 10 tasks' or 'Work on Project A 45mins' etc.

I think if I take the view of little and often with the projects, this method will work. If I have projects actions that must be done on a specific date etc, I will place them directly on my Closed List. But generally I think if I take the view that entries on my Closed List are really entry points into project work, that will probably appease my doubts.

At least I have something new to try :o)

All the best

Steve

Hi Steve
Brilliant! Once again I bow to a Master! The puzzle analogy is quite fitting....but mine is a bit different. I think of the picture on the box as the closed list. The perimiter of the puzzle as the office hours and the various pieces as units of effort and focus to fill in the picture with the parts of the picture on each piece (units of time, effort, focus...whatever to get that piece of the closed list done) and my trick is to complete the puzzle within the perimeters (time allotted)
THANK YOU THANK YOU......I couldn't quite describe it! See? I always am gifted by your thinking!
(Of course I fully understand your perspective of the rules aspect even though that's not my particular main concern. But it's always helpful to learn from another systems thinker......we are in the minority! LOL!
Now it's time to up my meds.......LOL! I've been frozen long enough...geesh, martyrdom is stupid! ROFL!
learning as I go

p.s. please let us know how your new perspective works for you.....whilst I play with your wonderful analogy......these ideas actually help me to think better. Thanks again!
learning as I go

One last post....Steve...instead of using your need to procrastinate on laboring over the system (Mark did most of that for us already!), maybe you can *procrastinate* on the dreaded stuff as a sandwhich like I do. Do a small unit of the dreaded crap and do either another thing on your list or time the small unit of dreaded work right next to your next scheduled break and do something delightful for yourself! Procrastination can be a good thing if you're willing to be it's master! LOL! Besides, even 5minutes is a victory. If it totally *drains* or frustrates you, use the next unit of existance on a reward. I'm slowly learning this. I realize that if I'm going to procrastinate, it's going to count as something good either in accomplishment or monitored pleasure. Just make sure that you've got the closed list covered.......I've learned the hard way that guilt ruins pleasure! I like my flex time to accomodate my getting the list done with some *wiggle room* to either stay on a roll or to use that extra time for rewards or getting done early! This way your procrastination won't hurt your closed list aims or your sense of self-trust......keep the fruit tasting sweet! LOL! And this way, when I occasionally do fail, it's a small blemish not a goal crusher! I'm so easily sidetracked and distracted that I MUST stay tight on my strategy and aims! LOL!
learning as I go

Just an aside re: procrastination.....sometimes procrastination is a way to give yourself timeto gel your thoughts.......that's why Mark advocates measured breaks, cherry-picking from the closed list, rotating tasks in bursts....all different ways to get the closed list done, procrastination included! See? I think your procrastination is actually meant to help you to either gel a thought or to work up the impetus to start.....I'm comfortable with doing several starts to add up to a whole yet many people would find my method as frustrating! LOL! Sometimes it even frustrates me and motivates me to hold my nose and get the dreaded deed off my list. Procrastination isn't the best route....but, sometimes it's the only route our minds will allow...but, no matter....all roads lead to Rome! At least, that's my version and I'm sticking to it! LOL!
learning as I go

I have, I think, sort of resolved the issue. Something struck me the other day, that I have no issues with Continuous projects. I put an item on my Closed List for a specific day, then action that item. So in essence why can't I turn all of my Organisational projects into Continuous projects?

To be honest I can't really see a problem with doing this, yes there may be the odd item that has to be done on a specific day, or things that have to be done in specific order. But for the most part I can not really see an issue. If I combine that with the idea of setting a target, either number of tasks or time etc. I think that could work really well. In conjunction with setting a deadline, intermediate deadline and review. Things shouldn't fall through the gaps.

I might try this approach and see how it goes. Can anybody see any issues with adopting this approach, of turning all organisational projects into continuous?


All the best

Steve

Hi Steve
I don't differentiate between projects types at all when it comes to forming my will do list, so I see no problem with it! LOL! Anything that isn't a one-off is a project in my eyes. Of course my mind knows the difference between scheduling one hour walking daily (to maintain fitness) vs an hour of building a desk until it's done (personal pleasure and office improvement), but when I'm actually SCHEDULING it into my WILL DO list, it's all units of time toward doing what I think I should/want to be doing with my time! I only concern myself with keeping track of my commitments and value and strategizing my schedule to get it all in as well as having time to enjoy life along with the responsibilities. As I mentioned in an earlier posting, I regard all categories and their various one-offs and projects as subsets to the core of my Grand Design: my quality of life. I only care that I get it all done to my satisfaction more times than not and can see progress overall, except when I'm tracking specific goals and/or deadlines.

In summary, do whatever it takes to allow you to gain your desired degree of mastery over both the mundane and the blissful! If you need a bit of trickery with semantics to sooth your soul, then...by all means, do it! LOL! (We all need little work arounds to make it happen!) Good luck with this. Judging by your post, you've hurdled some of your trepidation. That's GREAT! I run into trepidations as well, but of a different nature. Whatever greases the wheels to make the cogs turn more easily, I'm all for! LOL! Sometimes, I must confess, that I change/tweak my system a little just to assuage the boredomdread factor of list itmes by turning my focus onto *testing/proving* the tweak itself rather than the boredom/dread factor! LOL! I use the system tweak to shake up/refresh my attitude which does increase my effectiveness and efficiency for awhile at least! *blush* It works for me to rotate ways of doing the same things I don't relish doing as soon as possible so that I can ENJOY the challenges I look forward to. ..."that which we call a rose By any other name would smell as sweet"
gsdsmiles

Hi Steve
Sometimes I have difficulty articulating my ideas well. Here's an analogy of what I mean.....A husband asks his wife to put on the brunette wig and French maid's uniform. They will accomplish the same end but their methods and attitudes are a bit refreshed. Even the next night, a residual effect of the night before continues on for awhile. When the boredom sets in, then she braids her hair and dons a school girl's kilt....... Whatever makes it work, yeah?
learning as I go