Discussion Forum > Enneagram typing for personality
Hi Jacqueline,
Some observations:
- 5 and 1 combination! OY!!!!! this alone makes me question the study methodology!
;-) Also, 5/2 does not work that well. (Speaking in "normal" terms here. Obviously at the high end most types would work well.)
- I briefly looked for "obvious" connections, such as 7/5,5/8, 8/2 ,7/8 and I was surprised not to see much of that kind of thing. I would guess, knowing nothing else, that adjacent types (along the paths) would be common. (I get along so well with my wife because we really relate to each other, being adjacent. I know it is more than that, but I think it would be a good start.)
- I was looking for other patterns then I read the number of participants in the study. WAY WAY too small a sample to be meaningful at all, I'd think. This could easily fall into the kind of problem were 5s are likely to be on a computer but not 7s. Or paranoid 5s and 6s refuse to answer but 1s and 2s are happy to. I think I'd be happier to see a study that was disguised. You know, have husbands and wives in together to look at free resort timeshares ;-) or kitchen remodeling or various other well thought out situations and then have them covertly typed in the course of the interview. I'd want the number to be very very great so as to wash out errors.
I wonder if there are other demographic studies.
Some observations:
- 5 and 1 combination! OY!!!!! this alone makes me question the study methodology!
;-) Also, 5/2 does not work that well. (Speaking in "normal" terms here. Obviously at the high end most types would work well.)
- I briefly looked for "obvious" connections, such as 7/5,5/8, 8/2 ,7/8 and I was surprised not to see much of that kind of thing. I would guess, knowing nothing else, that adjacent types (along the paths) would be common. (I get along so well with my wife because we really relate to each other, being adjacent. I know it is more than that, but I think it would be a good start.)
- I was looking for other patterns then I read the number of participants in the study. WAY WAY too small a sample to be meaningful at all, I'd think. This could easily fall into the kind of problem were 5s are likely to be on a computer but not 7s. Or paranoid 5s and 6s refuse to answer but 1s and 2s are happy to. I think I'd be happier to see a study that was disguised. You know, have husbands and wives in together to look at free resort timeshares ;-) or kitchen remodeling or various other well thought out situations and then have them covertly typed in the course of the interview. I'd want the number to be very very great so as to wash out errors.
I wonder if there are other demographic studies.
May 6, 2009 at 21:13 |
Mike
Mike
I know, I saw that 5 husband, 1 wife combo and thought of you. It never said anything about being happy though, you know. :-)
Makes sense that some of it would be based on gender as to who could match well with who.
I was looking at the wife 5 numbers and thinking - OMG, do female 5's never get married? (Although I never have and never felt so inclined - just one more person to want too much from me). Then I saw that there were very very few female 5's period, which explained that. :-)
Makes sense that some of it would be based on gender as to who could match well with who.
I was looking at the wife 5 numbers and thinking - OMG, do female 5's never get married? (Although I never have and never felt so inclined - just one more person to want too much from me). Then I saw that there were very very few female 5's period, which explained that. :-)
May 6, 2009 at 21:39 |
Jacqueline
Jacqueline
I took the test and not surprisingly was a 7. I was freaked out by this statement which absolutely applies to me: they tend to have excellent mind-body coordination, and manual dexterity (typewriting, piano playing, tennis). To me, a 7 is a Sanguine/Choleric combo which is absolutely what I am. I didn't know these types were good at typewriting, piano, and tennis like I am though. LOL!!
May 6, 2009 at 22:35 |
Mel
Mel
Hi Jacqueline
Thanks for that excerpt and the link - a lot of that does make sense ..... :-)
Thanks for that excerpt and the link - a lot of that does make sense ..... :-)
May 7, 2009 at 1:23 |
Christine B
Christine B
Mel,
Yes, 7s tend to be out and about doing things so it would make sense that they would have good body coordination. My wife is a band director and plays just about EVERY instrument ... because she has to teach them all. While working for her masters, she worked in the instrument storage locker and repaired most instruments. She is also a tennis coach and enjoys playing tennis as well as playing in community orchestras, and directing and marching in a marching band on weekends. Oh, and she is also a licensed massage therapist! If there were more hours in the day she would do more, I'm SURE.
8s are also very much body aware as they are in the "instinctive center". 7s are in the "thinking center" (with 5s and 6s), but they are right next door to the 8s so maybe that explains it ;-)
Yes, 7s tend to be out and about doing things so it would make sense that they would have good body coordination. My wife is a band director and plays just about EVERY instrument ... because she has to teach them all. While working for her masters, she worked in the instrument storage locker and repaired most instruments. She is also a tennis coach and enjoys playing tennis as well as playing in community orchestras, and directing and marching in a marching band on weekends. Oh, and she is also a licensed massage therapist! If there were more hours in the day she would do more, I'm SURE.
8s are also very much body aware as they are in the "instinctive center". 7s are in the "thinking center" (with 5s and 6s), but they are right next door to the 8s so maybe that explains it ;-)
May 7, 2009 at 12:06 |
Mike
Mike
Jacqueline,
I'm thinking that the lack of female 5s might have to do with it being a poorly constructed survey. Most women tend to be "softer" than most 5s are, I would think. But then again, most of the 8s I've known were women and talk about "hard". OY!
Have you seen this:
http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/matrix.asp
You might want to register on the site first as the first click you take is really a teaser and you have to be registered to see the rest. I think I'll go get a malinator ID and register so I can see the rest, without them loading me up with spam.
I'm thinking that the lack of female 5s might have to do with it being a poorly constructed survey. Most women tend to be "softer" than most 5s are, I would think. But then again, most of the 8s I've known were women and talk about "hard". OY!
Have you seen this:
http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/matrix.asp
You might want to register on the site first as the first click you take is really a teaser and you have to be registered to see the rest. I think I'll go get a malinator ID and register so I can see the rest, without them loading me up with spam.
May 7, 2009 at 12:16 |
Mike
Mike
Jacquline,
In case you did not want to jump through the hoops, here is what Riso/Hudson see as the problems with the 1/5 combination.
Potential Trouble Spots or Issues
"As intellectual as both types tend to be, they are also opposites in important areas, and this can lead to conflicts and the eventual breakdown of their relationship. Most seriously, Ones tend to believe in the objectivity of certain truths and believe that once these are known, there is the possibility of arriving at objective certitude."
I remember one time my ex- and I were in Thailand for the wedding of a friend. I had gotten there a couple of weeks earlier because there was going to be a total solar eclipse and I would not miss that for the world ;-) (It was kind of fun, the Thais at the hotel put on quite a show of banging on pots and pans to scare off the dragon who was eating the sun. I doubt they believed that any more than I did, but hey, tradition is tradition ;-) We went to a bookstore together and were browsing and I found a book written by a sex worker in Pat Pong wherein she described the Thai attitude toward sex ... which is a tad more laissez fare than it is in America, to say the least!
Anyway, when I showed it to my ex- she blew up, saying that there could not be any possible way to justify being a whore! That kind of defines this problem. For a 1, things are right or wrong ... no middle ground ... no justification ... no excuses ... no differing world views.
"Ones feel that their ideals and philosophy have given them contact with some form of ultimate Truth, and therefore they are living from a viewpoint in which acquiring certainty is a moral imperative. Fives, on the other hand, feel that there is no such thing as objective truth, merely possible interpretations for what seems to be objective reality."
That is very true ... and I feel that way more and more as I move on through life. My experience has shown me that there are many more ways to see things than just the one.
" We may come to some degree of consensus, but that does not necessarily mean that our consensus reflects anything completely objective. It just means that we choose to think the same way."
Exactly how I see it. I write in terms of "truth" vs "Truth". I don't admit the existence of "Truth". I see it as a logical absurdity to think that a mind can know everything, which is what knowing the "Truth" would imply. To know everything would imply being larger than everything and that is a logical absurdity. It would then create more to know! Senseless ;-)
"Fives are thus skeptics and debunkers of certitude. They love to debate and deflate ironclad philosophies and self-righteously held positions wherever they find them. Thus, less healthy Ones can drift into various forms of fundamentalism, believing that they hold the key to truth, while Fives can become provocative nihilists, believing that there is no truth."
That's me! LOL ;-)
"In a relationship, both types find it very difficult to change their basic philosophies of life—and they both find it difficult to respect anyone who believes the opposite of them."
Well, that all depends. I can respect anyone who is seeking understanding but has not yet reached the lofty pinnacle I have achieved ;-) ;-) Seriously, though, it comes down to what the difference is. If it is fundamental, then yes, I don't respect it. IOW, if you claim that you know the "Truth", I won't respect that because it is fundamental to me that no one knows everything. But if you hold position X (where I hold position Y) because that is where you are right now on your journey, then fine ... I'll explain why you are wrong and shake hands and move on ;-)
"Yet both can respect the other's boundaries to a fault, not wanting to impose their own beliefs on the other."
Yes, that is the better way to put it, perhaps. I do respect boundaries. In the "Siddhartha", by Herman Hesse, toward the end when Siddhartha meets the son he did not know he had and sees him drifting toward a wasted life, he at first tries to "save him", then lets him go as he realizes that his son's life is not his to live. That resonated deeply with me. People have to travel their own paths. Boundaries must be respected.
"The relationship can thus become cool and distant, impersonal and analytic, tinged with resignation and cynicism."
Yup, that is how it ended.
"Ones can feel that Fives are too impractical and endlessly concerned with irrelevancies;"
She was very critical of my laid back attitude as she was intensely driven to succeed. I drove her crazy. She was particularly annoyed that I did not follow the rules and still managed to "muddle through", as she probably saw it. By her rules I was expected to fail ... crash and burn, really ... that I did not, drove her wild. I did not follow her rules and things worked for me. She could not reconcile that.
"Fives can feel that Ones are too serious and rigid and that they take their opinions far too seriously."
Yes, she drove ME crazy! ;-)
"Both can become too self-contained, evolving their lives in separate spheres-perhaps only getting together for occasional meals, to sleep, or to solve pressing problems. Coldness and isolation take over and may last for years, without either of them realizing it very clearly much less feeling that either of them can do very much about it."
Well, we did something about it.
A very good analysis of the problems we encountered. Of course, the positives are true as well. I am just focusing on the negatives here. We had great fun and many good times. I miss her very much (she died a few years ago of breast cancer, far too young). Perhaps the most poignant thing she ever said to me was the last time we met. She was a fanatic about eating good food and she exercised for about 45 minutes EVERY morning of her life. She said to me: "All of that work exercising and denying myself junk food and I'm dying anyway. For what? What was the point of it all?" I suppose I could have told her it was because she was a 1 and that was the rule she had accepted and she had to follow the rules. Silence seemed more appropriate just then.
In case you did not want to jump through the hoops, here is what Riso/Hudson see as the problems with the 1/5 combination.
Potential Trouble Spots or Issues
"As intellectual as both types tend to be, they are also opposites in important areas, and this can lead to conflicts and the eventual breakdown of their relationship. Most seriously, Ones tend to believe in the objectivity of certain truths and believe that once these are known, there is the possibility of arriving at objective certitude."
I remember one time my ex- and I were in Thailand for the wedding of a friend. I had gotten there a couple of weeks earlier because there was going to be a total solar eclipse and I would not miss that for the world ;-) (It was kind of fun, the Thais at the hotel put on quite a show of banging on pots and pans to scare off the dragon who was eating the sun. I doubt they believed that any more than I did, but hey, tradition is tradition ;-) We went to a bookstore together and were browsing and I found a book written by a sex worker in Pat Pong wherein she described the Thai attitude toward sex ... which is a tad more laissez fare than it is in America, to say the least!
Anyway, when I showed it to my ex- she blew up, saying that there could not be any possible way to justify being a whore! That kind of defines this problem. For a 1, things are right or wrong ... no middle ground ... no justification ... no excuses ... no differing world views.
"Ones feel that their ideals and philosophy have given them contact with some form of ultimate Truth, and therefore they are living from a viewpoint in which acquiring certainty is a moral imperative. Fives, on the other hand, feel that there is no such thing as objective truth, merely possible interpretations for what seems to be objective reality."
That is very true ... and I feel that way more and more as I move on through life. My experience has shown me that there are many more ways to see things than just the one.
" We may come to some degree of consensus, but that does not necessarily mean that our consensus reflects anything completely objective. It just means that we choose to think the same way."
Exactly how I see it. I write in terms of "truth" vs "Truth". I don't admit the existence of "Truth". I see it as a logical absurdity to think that a mind can know everything, which is what knowing the "Truth" would imply. To know everything would imply being larger than everything and that is a logical absurdity. It would then create more to know! Senseless ;-)
"Fives are thus skeptics and debunkers of certitude. They love to debate and deflate ironclad philosophies and self-righteously held positions wherever they find them. Thus, less healthy Ones can drift into various forms of fundamentalism, believing that they hold the key to truth, while Fives can become provocative nihilists, believing that there is no truth."
That's me! LOL ;-)
"In a relationship, both types find it very difficult to change their basic philosophies of life—and they both find it difficult to respect anyone who believes the opposite of them."
Well, that all depends. I can respect anyone who is seeking understanding but has not yet reached the lofty pinnacle I have achieved ;-) ;-) Seriously, though, it comes down to what the difference is. If it is fundamental, then yes, I don't respect it. IOW, if you claim that you know the "Truth", I won't respect that because it is fundamental to me that no one knows everything. But if you hold position X (where I hold position Y) because that is where you are right now on your journey, then fine ... I'll explain why you are wrong and shake hands and move on ;-)
"Yet both can respect the other's boundaries to a fault, not wanting to impose their own beliefs on the other."
Yes, that is the better way to put it, perhaps. I do respect boundaries. In the "Siddhartha", by Herman Hesse, toward the end when Siddhartha meets the son he did not know he had and sees him drifting toward a wasted life, he at first tries to "save him", then lets him go as he realizes that his son's life is not his to live. That resonated deeply with me. People have to travel their own paths. Boundaries must be respected.
"The relationship can thus become cool and distant, impersonal and analytic, tinged with resignation and cynicism."
Yup, that is how it ended.
"Ones can feel that Fives are too impractical and endlessly concerned with irrelevancies;"
She was very critical of my laid back attitude as she was intensely driven to succeed. I drove her crazy. She was particularly annoyed that I did not follow the rules and still managed to "muddle through", as she probably saw it. By her rules I was expected to fail ... crash and burn, really ... that I did not, drove her wild. I did not follow her rules and things worked for me. She could not reconcile that.
"Fives can feel that Ones are too serious and rigid and that they take their opinions far too seriously."
Yes, she drove ME crazy! ;-)
"Both can become too self-contained, evolving their lives in separate spheres-perhaps only getting together for occasional meals, to sleep, or to solve pressing problems. Coldness and isolation take over and may last for years, without either of them realizing it very clearly much less feeling that either of them can do very much about it."
Well, we did something about it.
A very good analysis of the problems we encountered. Of course, the positives are true as well. I am just focusing on the negatives here. We had great fun and many good times. I miss her very much (she died a few years ago of breast cancer, far too young). Perhaps the most poignant thing she ever said to me was the last time we met. She was a fanatic about eating good food and she exercised for about 45 minutes EVERY morning of her life. She said to me: "All of that work exercising and denying myself junk food and I'm dying anyway. For what? What was the point of it all?" I suppose I could have told her it was because she was a 1 and that was the rule she had accepted and she had to follow the rules. Silence seemed more appropriate just then.
May 7, 2009 at 13:10 |
Mike
Mike
Mike, what do you think of people who believe in Truth with a capital T, but don't claim to know it all?
By the way, your wife is doing a LOT!! I really related to the description of 7's that said they have a hard time deciding which of their talents to use. I have at least some talent in several areas and it is hard to know where to focus, so I usually don't. :-) I remember in high school being in tears because I had play practice (I had a leading role), a track meet (I was on relay teams) and choir practice the same night. I didn't know what to do and my mom just shrugged. I don't remember what I decided to do! LOL My dh (haven't figured out his Enneagram #) helps keep me from doing too many things now fortunately.
By the way, your wife is doing a LOT!! I really related to the description of 7's that said they have a hard time deciding which of their talents to use. I have at least some talent in several areas and it is hard to know where to focus, so I usually don't. :-) I remember in high school being in tears because I had play practice (I had a leading role), a track meet (I was on relay teams) and choir practice the same night. I didn't know what to do and my mom just shrugged. I don't remember what I decided to do! LOL My dh (haven't figured out his Enneagram #) helps keep me from doing too many things now fortunately.
May 7, 2009 at 14:23 |
Mel
Mel
Hi Mel,
You asked: "What do you think of people who believe in Truth with a capital T, but don't claim to know it all?" Well, I've never met one. Mostly they are religious and when asked about something specific they say they don't know it all but then proceed to tell me what I should be doing based on the Truth which they, of course, know. ;-)
Sevens are all about choices, as my wife is always telling me. She looks at a menu and can't decide because she projects how bad she will feel about the choices she did not make.
The other problem with that is that she is, as I'm continually telling her, she tries to put 20 pounds into a 10 pound sack. She over commits like crazy! She winds up exhausted and runs herself down.
Sevens just don't know when to stop ;-)
You asked: "What do you think of people who believe in Truth with a capital T, but don't claim to know it all?" Well, I've never met one. Mostly they are religious and when asked about something specific they say they don't know it all but then proceed to tell me what I should be doing based on the Truth which they, of course, know. ;-)
Sevens are all about choices, as my wife is always telling me. She looks at a menu and can't decide because she projects how bad she will feel about the choices she did not make.
The other problem with that is that she is, as I'm continually telling her, she tries to put 20 pounds into a 10 pound sack. She over commits like crazy! She winds up exhausted and runs herself down.
Sevens just don't know when to stop ;-)
May 7, 2009 at 17:01 |
Mike
Mike
Do you think personality type has an influence on whether you tell anybody and everybody you know that you're using AF? From some posts, it's obvious that some people discuss it with employers, employees and family, and even get them involved. What has been your experience of this - good or bad? Do you find it intrusive when others ask about AF, or is their input helpful? Do you keep your AF list available for all to see, or is it private?
May 8, 2009 at 15:45 |
hn
hn
I don't advertise. If asked about my notebook (and I almost never am) I'll explain that it is my TODO list. People understand TODO lists so don't usually ask. I see no reason to try to sell my time management system. I know from experience that what works for one person is not necessarily going to work for another so I don't see the point of proselytizing.
As to privacy, yes, I keep my list private. That may be an issue of personality, 5s can be a pit ... errr .... private ;-) But I'm not sure why anyone would want to share their unedited list. It would be letting people into every area of your life and you probably don't generally do that. I mean would you want your manager at work knowing what you have planned with your significant other on the weekend. Well, I wouldn't ;-)
As to privacy, yes, I keep my list private. That may be an issue of personality, 5s can be a pit ... errr .... private ;-) But I'm not sure why anyone would want to share their unedited list. It would be letting people into every area of your life and you probably don't generally do that. I mean would you want your manager at work knowing what you have planned with your significant other on the weekend. Well, I wouldn't ;-)
May 8, 2009 at 16:02 |
Mike
Mike
Mike, I don't have trouble making decisions per se, but I am frequently overwhelmed by choices (because they all sound great!). For example, I get a homeschooling newsletter with literally hundreds of activities and classes I could have the kids do. The stress of being presented with all those options on a regular basis has led me to just stop reading about them. I've already decided what we're doing. If a friend tells me about something particularly great, then I'll consider it.
As far as people trying to enforce their truth on you, that makes sense given your personality. I swear I could order my husband to go pick up a million-dollar check and he wouldn't do it simply because he resists others' control. Until I understood personality, that really rankled me. Now I can use it to my advantage. In fact, I need to start telling him that under no circumstances should he buy me an expensive Mother's Day gift. LOL
hn,
As a 7, I am all about excitedly telling everyone about AF. I do not, on the other hand, show people my list. I don't think there's anything particularly personal on there, but even for me, showing someone the whole list would be too much. My friend who is more of a choleric (not sure what that is enneagram wise) says that I always get people excited about stuff and by the time they're into it I've moved on to the latest, greatest thing. LOL So true! But I do think I help people by introducing them to helpful products and ideas. However, I'm not anticipating that I will necessarily be gung-ho for Mark's new approach. I am really happy with AF. But you never know!
As far as people trying to enforce their truth on you, that makes sense given your personality. I swear I could order my husband to go pick up a million-dollar check and he wouldn't do it simply because he resists others' control. Until I understood personality, that really rankled me. Now I can use it to my advantage. In fact, I need to start telling him that under no circumstances should he buy me an expensive Mother's Day gift. LOL
hn,
As a 7, I am all about excitedly telling everyone about AF. I do not, on the other hand, show people my list. I don't think there's anything particularly personal on there, but even for me, showing someone the whole list would be too much. My friend who is more of a choleric (not sure what that is enneagram wise) says that I always get people excited about stuff and by the time they're into it I've moved on to the latest, greatest thing. LOL So true! But I do think I help people by introducing them to helpful products and ideas. However, I'm not anticipating that I will necessarily be gung-ho for Mark's new approach. I am really happy with AF. But you never know!
May 8, 2009 at 16:15 |
Mel
Mel
Hi Mel,
Making choices: I guess it might be a low/high thing. Under stress (which my wife is because of the 20/10 bag thing) the seven probably has more trouble with choice. Under less stress, it is probably just a flood of confusion caused by competing things. You might look into various times in your life when you were very much in control of your world, and others where chaos reigned and see if you reacted differently to choice.
A five example would be: when my world is upside down, I go to low seven ... I retreat, become a bit paranoid perhaps, flee to time wasting procrastinating activities. When I'm hitting on all cylinders I go toward high eight ... I take command, don't hesitate, make quick decisions, move forward with no hesitation and keep focused on what is at hand but still buzz with activity.
So what I'm saying is that while it is about type, it is also about how stress modulates type. As a seven you go to high five when you feel in control ... you are probably more focused and take charge and become fascinated by life. When you are under stress, you likely go to low one ... you are likely to become more of a perfectionist and more scattered ... and probably more rule driven and expect others to do what is right ... by your standards, of course ;-)
That oversimplifies things a great deal, but you get the general idea. Wings also play into it. If you have a big six wing, you are more of an "entertainer" but if you have more of an eight wing, you are more "realistic". You might even have both wings. It gets complex ;-)
Reverse psychology: LOL ;-) Yeah, my wife is a master at that. But hey, she has a big advantage, she's a school teacher ;-)
Making choices: I guess it might be a low/high thing. Under stress (which my wife is because of the 20/10 bag thing) the seven probably has more trouble with choice. Under less stress, it is probably just a flood of confusion caused by competing things. You might look into various times in your life when you were very much in control of your world, and others where chaos reigned and see if you reacted differently to choice.
A five example would be: when my world is upside down, I go to low seven ... I retreat, become a bit paranoid perhaps, flee to time wasting procrastinating activities. When I'm hitting on all cylinders I go toward high eight ... I take command, don't hesitate, make quick decisions, move forward with no hesitation and keep focused on what is at hand but still buzz with activity.
So what I'm saying is that while it is about type, it is also about how stress modulates type. As a seven you go to high five when you feel in control ... you are probably more focused and take charge and become fascinated by life. When you are under stress, you likely go to low one ... you are likely to become more of a perfectionist and more scattered ... and probably more rule driven and expect others to do what is right ... by your standards, of course ;-)
That oversimplifies things a great deal, but you get the general idea. Wings also play into it. If you have a big six wing, you are more of an "entertainer" but if you have more of an eight wing, you are more "realistic". You might even have both wings. It gets complex ;-)
Reverse psychology: LOL ;-) Yeah, my wife is a master at that. But hey, she has a big advantage, she's a school teacher ;-)
May 8, 2009 at 18:12 |
Mike
Mike
Mike, I completely agree. My personality has operated differently at times of stress and even stages of life. I appreciate your insights. Thanks.
May 11, 2009 at 19:50 |
Mel
Mel
Hi Jacqueline,
I also found a website where there are brief explanations about the Meyers Briggs theory and the Enneagram.
Check:
https://www.toolshero.com/psychology/myers-briggs-personality-test/
https://www.toolshero.com/psychology/enneagram/
I hope these articles are useful for you.
Kind regards,
Dennis van der Velden
I also found a website where there are brief explanations about the Meyers Briggs theory and the Enneagram.
Check:
https://www.toolshero.com/psychology/myers-briggs-personality-test/
https://www.toolshero.com/psychology/enneagram/
I hope these articles are useful for you.
Kind regards,
Dennis van der Velden
January 29, 2020 at 13:15 |
Dennis van der Velden
Dennis van der Velden
http://www.9types.com/writeup/enneagram_marriages.html