Get Everything Done

Re-reading "How to Get Control of Your Time and Your Life" (Alan Lakein), I was reminded again of the importance of eliminating "C's", because most people will do them AT THE EXPENSE of "A's".

Here's some excerpts from Chapter 10 - Tasks Better Left Undone:

"Why do people have this strong tendency to get bogged down with C's? One reason is that many activities of top value cannot, by their very nature, be performed well."

"With all these things going against executing a hard A-1, is there any wonder you look around for something you can do well? One of the things you can do well is clear up all the easy C's. And you justify it by saying you are clearing them away so that you will then be free to do the A-1 later."

"You have very cleverly set up a situation where you won't leave the house until you empty the garbage, won't do the A-1 until all the B's and C's are out of the way."

"Since you know you're not doing A's, you can waste time and gain the feeling of doing something well, starting something easy and finishing it, crossing an item off your list, and moving the paper from your in-box to your out-box. But don't kid yourself: it's because you're doing all those C's and not because you haven't any time, that you don't get to do your A's."

Lakein's answer is "You need a C-Drawer." "Rather than let the high-quality A's get buried by the much larger quantity of C's, try reserving a special place on the top of your desk for the A items. Create a special "C-drawer" where the unimportant items can get dumped safely out of the way."

Within the context of AF, to ensure one really practices Pareto's 80/20 - is the solution to have an A-book and a C-book?

Hi Jacqueline,

I don't think the solution is to have multiple books. I like my approach ... For each item I enter, just after entering it I ask: "Am I really really really commited to doing this in the coming week?" I'm sure that challenge question can be modified to ask about priority as well. In any case, if my answer is NO!, then the item is IMMEDIATELY dismissed. Writing it got it recorded (caught grass) and dismissing it kept it out of the way of the higher priority/importance tasks.

The counter argument seems to be that one ought to let the item simmer on the list until the dismissal rules get rid of it. If one does that, there is a chance one may see the value in doing it. But, as you and Lakein point out, that is exactly what you do NOT want. You don't want reasons to do more things, you want more things out of the way of what you have decided is fundamentally important to you.

Beside, when you review your dismissed tasks (weekly?) you'll continually see that item and have the opportunity to add it back. So it is really just "simmering" out of sight, but still simmering ;-)

This is an important idea, in my view. We can see how well the opposite approach works as a reminder TO DO things we want to do but forget. Put the running shoes in front of the door so we can't go out without moving them, for example. If it is out of sight, it is out of mind. If it is IN sight, it is IN mind. It is our choice to decide which to do when and to what.

hi jacq
typing VERY hard pls forgive.....but I might help
my rx:
day list culled
MITS 1.Current Initiative: usually passion and challenge: rarely catch up*My FAV w/o fail day item
2. peace contract 30" to get rid of mundane stuff nag or to step up to challenge despite fear (when nag, I counts toward daily 90 scut CAP...see ? put cap on scut and your forced to choose most effecient or satifying action/effort and no nag as a result.
3. round up day of mundane...I assign these days as assurance that categories are current/ahead......usually do bits during week to chip away.....example: House/bills/forms, etc.............all within scut CAP! (c's that are concentrated to effective choices cuz of CAP imposed.
4. whatever else BIG you're challenging yourself with or IMPORTANT others eg. prepare birthday coming
THIS FREES MIND *& ASSURES QUALITY OF LIFE..................out of way..........FREE MIND and free time FOR THE AUDACIOUS, PASSIONATE expressions.....from chilling with kids to arguing with publishing agent! LOL
Again, forgive ...VERY HARD..........lurker for awhile.*sigh*
I hope this help.......better written on other posts....salient points to lead you if further inquiry/clarification needed.
*PHEW*****back to lurker! lol!
learning

Hey Mike,

I think the lightbulb went off w.r.t. your method now. I didn't really get it before and thought it was too much maintenance. My apologies, I know you have more years of experience w/this stuff than I do and we share the same outlook. I don't think it's as good of a method unless it's in the hands of someone who's using it properly - ie. to focus on the important things. OTOH, maybe it does force focus on important things -I'd just be worried it could do the opposite.

Hmm, I've never reviewed dismissed items. But maybe I wouldn't have to more than once a week - the one thing that I really exceled at w/GTD was doing the weekly review. :-)

Here's my dilemma though - if I did work the list that way, I am afraid that I would (during the week) add stupid C's to the list and then unconsciously just select them to do (because the damn things are *easy*). Another dilemma is that I put things on the list right away - even if they're not due for a month. I really like doing that because nothing gets missed. I freaking hate using a calendar because I like getting things done early and a calendar makes me put things off. And many of them are C's (that could morph into urgent - bills and such) - because hey, that is 80% of the crap that comes up.

My other concern is that I think you are more self-disciplined than I am. :-(

Just a question - why not use a master list and a week at a glance calendar with a page for tasks?

not BIG.......PASSIONATE...whatever you're passionate about........don't worry, it fluctuates....but result is most of your day is your pssions and TRUEST priorities (folks, pets, places, satisfying activities.....including brain work! LOL! bottom line.....most of your day is toward your truest passions and concerns........i.e. taking charge of your gratitudes!
learning

jacq
irony ~ bills not c's just feel like a c....consequences compel better choices unless process of expressing self and gratitudes.......CAP keeps me responsible (and safe) but not overwhelmed......if you want to do it only cuz it's easy for now..........do it........LOL! better yet.........if not really contributing to quality of life.........can it.......and choose SATIFYING activity.........not quasi avoidance activity while waiting for better inspiration.......carrot and stick combo to live WELL according to your spirit...
learning

Mike
I'm weekly plug in gal also........weekly review to cover what I consider to be a well lived week.....consciencious and satisfying!!!!! can't beat that combo....we are of like mind...
learning

Hi learning, I hope you feel better soon. It breaks my heart that you have to go through so much and still manage to maintain such a positive attitude. (((BIG HUG)))

I was doing something similar to this with AF condensed, but I wasn't focusing enough on those important things, because when I culled my list for the day, those C-s just pop out so naturally. I have managed to put a cap of 15 minutes on the daily cleaning (one of my goals IS to have a home that I'm at peace living there - which means no tornados facing me when I walk in the door.) Capping it at 15 minutes means I have to literally MOVE like a tornado to get it done in that time.

What you have said is why I was thinking of using 2 books. One that I use for 30 - 60 minutes as you suggest, and one that I use as a "current initiative book" for another hour plus every day - if there's only an hour I can spend in a day, I split the time evenly.

last time........

jacq you said

Just a question - why not use a master list and a week at a glance calendar with a page for tasks?

August 8, 2009 at 16:16 | Jacqueline

That's what I use with portable daily card for memory and focus and notes: dog relief times, meds times, directions.....later I'll explain..........pushing myself too hard, lurker again
I know you can find your way to match your mind and spirit....keep asking,reading, fiddling..............caution: I will change on occasion.........keep arsenal of effective tools and tricks for changing needs.........
lrstninh

jacq
(((bless you))) quite HARD..but beats being dead! LOL! you're on right track.....silt and minimize scut w/o sacrifice to chosen standards AND silt and maximize w/o scarifice to chosen passions! See? (note contrast and similarity to scut and passions procedures)
learning

yes, different lists, books, whatever keeps it easy to consult/use.....but plug in leader tasks on daily culled list..........once finished..........do what you ARE!.......whether free wheeling it or going to a passionate project or basking in gratitudes while you gaze at moon while walking dog..........shifts from nag/ relief chore to counting blessings.......wash dishes while remembering something great or mulling over new ideas....see? Not always works, but when it does, nags turn into brain/spirit time.....you're very intelligent, soulful and passionate...........you are doing fine job with yourself and loved ones.................already great life tragectory!!!!!! enjoy the bends, turns, and rest spots! You're in my heart, jacq..................GOT TO STOP: FIRE IN NECK......*hit bolina! that one like lightening! LOL! didn't pee pants or break teeth....passed! *blush*
learning
enenwhen can't type, I'mstill rooting for you!

oops.....last.........peace contract when a challenge 30" or greater! when part of nag...90" scut CAP rule applies..............summary: minimize scut & mazimize passion/gratitudes
learning

Jacqueline,

>>Hmm, I've never reviewed dismissed items.<<

? ? ?

That struck me as surprising. Hasn't that been part of AF since its inception? Maybe I am misunderstanding what you mean be "review" and "dismissed".

--Joseph

Joseph, I just don't look at them after they're highlighted / dismissed. If they really needed to be done, they'd come up again naturally and go on the list. If I dismissed them because they weren't a priority why would I clutter my list with them again?

Jacqueline,

Perhaps I misunderstood the concept from its inception? My impression was that Mr. Forster recommended highlighting "dismissed" or "up for review" items precisely because one can then skim them and decide what happened: 1)did I not want to do them in the first place? 2)was it a pipe dream? 3)do I still want to do it? 4) *why* didn't I do it? 5) how can I rephrase it to make it more doable? 6) do I need something else before I can do it? 7) etc.

I had thought that this is what "Review Mode" was, and also why, even in AF1, one highlighted but didn't scratch out or erase "dismissed" items.

If you used an electronic format AF list you would complete delete the item?

Thanks,
Joseph

P.S. For the GTDers, someone pointed out how highlighted items were naturals for a "Someday/Maybe" list.

I understand what you're saying Joseph, and I think it might depend on the individual.

What you are doing with the list of questions is something that I do while operating my list. I'm not sure of what you're saying by highlighting the "up for review" items? You don't do that unless you dismiss them. If I was going electronic, yes, I would do just like I do with my email inbox - delete it permanently or do the task. It's the same concept. In your email, do you keep what you haven't done in some holding subfolder and review that occasionally just to hunt down something to do? If it was unimportant to you, but important to someone else, they'll remind you.

In the early days of AF1, I had a real dumping problem. I operated under the delusion that I could (and should) put everything I thought of onto the list (even all of my house renovations.) When I look back at those first AF pages of Jan. 5, I can see how scattered (and overwhelming) this approach was. ie. trying to renovate every room of a very large house almost all at one time.

The problem for me is that I can be a do-er - put it on a list in front of me, and I will do it. Whether it's the right thing to do or not. Things stand out very easily to me as "ready to be done", unfortunately.

In looking back at the finished pages of the last 7 months, I can see that about 60% of the items got put back on my list (without me ever looking back on them) or the issue went away on it's own, about 30% of them I'll do at some point - but again, I will likely put them on the list again when I've cleared up other projects and have time for them. Another 10% were just brain burps that I really don't want to waste my time on.

I would wager that in the early days, I dismissed more than the average person - because I really took to heart the rule of "if nothing stands out on the page, the whole page is dismissed."

And at what point do you stop reviewing the dismissed items? When they're 3 months old, six months old, 2 years old? I really don't want to be looking at "make pumpkin pie" and "request holidays for Easter break" once a week or month for the next couple of years. I'm sure I'll think of making pumpkin pie one day in the future without that reminder.

Today was the first time I have reviewed my 7 months worth of dismissed items (about 250 of them), and you know what? There's not one thing I would put back on my list right now. Well, maybe "Watch Rome season 1".

Hi Jacqueline,

Thanks for the explanation of how you handle it.

You said:
<<I'm not sure of what you're saying by highlighting the "up for review" items? You don't do that unless you dismiss them.>>

I was attempting to use both the "old" term and the "new" term here. In AF1 and AF2 unactioned items got "dismissed" (and highlighted). In AF things are "up for review" (and highlighted).

*Before* something was dismissed it was "up for dismissal" or "in danger of dismissal" (i.e. above the line in AF2). I believe the language used currently in AF for items *before* they are highlighted is something along the lines of "a candidate for review". It doesn't seem to be in the spirit of things to say "in *danger* of review" : )

Likewise I believe the current terminology for something that actually gets highlighted for review is that those items are "up for review", i.e. when you switch to review mode *those* items are up for review.

Can anyone confirm/deny? I think I've got Mr. Forster's system on this correct, no?

<< If I was going electronic, yes, I would do just like I do with my email inbox - delete it permanently or do the task.>>

Interesting. That is precisely what I would not do, if I wanted to follow the AF system as is. If I deleted items that get dismissed or put on review. . . well, then, what would the rule "switch to review mode" do?

Perhaps the genesis of my questions can be explained by the caveat that I'm trying to follow the AF rules as laid out by Mr. Forster. I need to make sure that i understand them first and give them a proper shake down first! Then *maybe* I'll tweak them a bit.

That make sense? Thanks for the discussion!
--Joseph

Hi Joseph

It sounds to me as if you've got it right. I do understand though Jacqueline's point about not wanting to wade through loads of "dismissed" items (sorry - still prefer the original terminology :-) ) What I have done to avoid that problem is to analyse my dismissed items into 4 categories

Dismissed - Not To Be Done
Dismissed - Actioned Subsequently
Dismissed - Review Later
Someday/Maybe

That keeps my list of items for review pretty small, as everything I have now actioned or decided I am not going to do has been removed from that review.

Hi Jacqueline

Although I was nowhere as near as good as you at dismissing (as you will have gathered from my no of pages!) I was getting a long list to review. I have posted my solution above - which you have presumably read by the time you get to this point :-)

Hi learning

Just wanted to echo Jacqueline's comments and wishes for you to be feeling better quickly. You never cease to amaze me with your strength of character and your amazing ability to be genuinely coherent in such circumstances - and you are coherent despite your anticipated protestations!! :-)

Your comment "caution: I will change on occasion.........keep arsenal of effective tools and tricks for changing needs........." is so helpful - and definitely one we all need to keep in mind.

Take care ......

Hi Joseph, yes, you are operating correctly via RAF w.r.t. review mode. I'm not operating RAF though, I'm using the original AF, which I feel is the better system - apart from *my* problem of letting the list get clogged up with lower value tasks. Of course, I could just dismiss more quickly a la Mike, because unfortunately those tasks stand out.

I'm glad though that you prompted me to go back through my dismissed tems to confirm that there wasn't some magical life changing task that I was missing. I imagine that if I was operating RAF, I would just keep dismissing the "change to review mode" task and the issue would be resolved. :-)

I remember years ago when I first got the goal to get to "inbox zero" - I moved everything from my inbox to a backlog subfolder thinking I would plug away at it over time, filing and actioning items. To my surprise, I never went back into that subfolder again.

From this blog post discussion, it looks like there's a lot of variation in people's m.o. - some are like me, who don't get value from review, and some are not.

http://www.markforster.net/blog/2009/6/13/autofocus-a-closer-look-at-dismissal.html

I think with AF2 and RAF it is far more needful to review the dismissed items than in AF1.

With AF1, items are on the list a lot longer and so they are more likely to be genuinely dismissed, in the sense that you have touched on them so many times, and decided so many times not to do them.

With AF2 and RAF, items are dismissed (or put on review) so much quicker, so they are more likely to need to be reviewed.

Wooba

(((Chirstineb)))
bless you for chosing kindess to trump criticism.....I'm moved that you even bother to say that you can silt the message from obscuring /distorting effect of pain and meds!
learning as I go

ps
the forum newbees will think I'm Otis (Mayberry's town drunk!)

Hi jacqline

"I imagine that if I was operating RAF, I would just keep dismissing the "change to review mode" task and the issue would be resolved. :-) "

ROTFL ROTFL ROTFL That was rich.......even stopped the heat in my veins for a few seconds..........keep em coming! Humor is such a great salve!
how can I not love you all???? you are the BEST of the BEST!
learning

Hey Jacqueline,

>>> think the lightbulb went off w.r.t. your method now. I didn't really get it before and thought it was too much maintenance. <<<

The maintenance is minimal. Just take a moment to think if you WILL do it next week ... if not, as you say, it will come up again. I dismiss it and review the dismissed items weekly. But I find that I have lots of repetition. If I were not to review for a month I might have half a dozen entries about some thing ... which indicates that I probably ought to do it or talk myself out of wanting to do it ;-)

>>> My apologies, I know you have more years of experience w/this stuff than I do and we share the same outlook. I don't think it's as good of a method unless it's in the hands of someone who's using it properly - ie. to focus on the important things. OTOH, maybe it does force focus on important things -I'd just be worried it could do the opposite. <<<

Well, how would that question ... or a better one of your devising ... increase the importance of the unimportant? Suppose you ask of every item you put on the list ... "Is this truly going to get me to my long term goals more quickly? Or is doing it going to prevent unnecessary trouble down the road (like not filling up the car when there is 1/8 tank left?

I think that would be a helpful filter. Now you don't have to put it on the list at all, if that is your style. Not everyone is bothered by just ignoring things. I am, however, and I found that the grass catcher helped me in that it allowed me to forget about the item knowing it was safely handled and I could get back to it. It is kind of fooling myself, I suppose, but it works for me.

>>> Hmm, I've never reviewed dismissed items. But maybe I wouldn't have to more than once a week - the one thing that I really exceled at w/GTD was doing the weekly review. :-) <<<

Yes, I love the weekly review. And I would NOT review more often than once a week. And in that review, some number will be tossed for good. As you say, you don't review them forever. If you have decided that it is too close to the bake sale to bake that pumpkin pie, just cross it off and put on your list: "Call, Mary. Sorry, no pie." Easy peasy. ;-)

>>> Here's my dilemma though - if I did work the list that way, I am afraid that I would (during the week) add stupid C's to the list and then unconsciously just select them to do (because the damn things are *easy*). <<<

But why would you if your challenge question is designed to filter them out? Don't let C's sneak in there. Challenge them and dismiss them straight away. Or, if you don't want to put them on the list at all, just forget them, the'll be back ;-)

It all comes down to how much overhead you want. I think keeping too books is more overhead than dismissing from the one book and reviewing later. To each is own. We all have different feelings about what things represent too much work.

>>> Another dilemma is that I put things on the list right away - even if they're not due for a month. I really like doing that because nothing gets missed. <<<

And I have that covered. They get dismissed right away and reviewed every week. When the time is right, they get added back in and you know you have to do them.

>>> I freaking hate using a calendar because I like getting things done early and a calendar makes me put things off. And many of them are C's (that could morph into urgent - bills and such) - because hey, that is 80% of the crap that comes up. <<<

Well, Covey had it right in this particular case. The quadrant system handles it well. Q4's can morph to Q3's then to Q1's and it pays to notice that as it happens. As you say, 80% of life is Q4 that becomes Q1 if ignored.

>>> My other concern is that I think you are more self-disciplined than I am. :-( <<<

Not so sure about that -- you saw how much trouble I got into with AF2 and how long it took me to figure it out! ;-)

>>> Just a question - why not use a master list and a week at a glance calendar with a page for tasks? <<<

What would be on the master list? I'd use the week-at-a-glance but it would not fit in my pocket so easily. And, I more more task focused than calendar focused. I don't have that many dates that drive me.

Jacqueline:

Ah! I see, I didn't realize you were working solely in AF1. I'm giving AF ("raf) a run for its money.

Wooba:

Brilliant! You hit on it. Dismissal in AF1 happened after more iterations through the items, with plenty of chances to do them if at all. So, truly, if they were dismissed there was likely *something* off about the item (either it was phrased wrong, or circumstances changed, or you changed, or you just don't want to do it, period). So "going back to it" wasn't the most useful thing in the world. (see Jacqueline's point, above).

But dismissal in AF2 and on review for AF ("raf") works differently. Those items didn't have as much of an appellate process. . . . you might not have gone over them for some time.

Very keen of Mr. Forster to change the terminology to reflect this -- from "dismiss" in AF1/AF2 to "on review" for AF.

--Joseph

Joseph, I think the "review mode" came up partly because people (myself included), really resisted getting rid of tasks. Heck, I even told Mark that I wanted the AF2 inexorable *line* of doom vs. the inexorable *page* of doom.

Oddly enough, when operating RAF/AF2 method, I dismissed more readily than in AF1. If 4 tasks were on notice in AF2, I would usually dismiss 2 and do 2. Unfortunately, I had a lot of one-blocks of unactioned tasks. I will admit that a couple of times, I cheated and put a whole page up for review just so I could dismiss / do more. I like that feeling of pressure. :-)

I do feel somewhat guilty about complaining as I pull a Tim Ferriss once in awhile - my son does work for me as my "personal assistant" of sorts. For today, I gave him tasks to do that are C's and a few A's, and I bought myself peace of mind for $100 - money well spent. :-)

>>I ask: "Am I really really really commited to doing this in the coming week?"<<

In my understanding this is almost the opposite of the AF system.

In AF, I put every task on the list, but I DON'T KNOW whether I am committed to do it or not: It is in the moment the task stands out that I know it. Or, how Mark puts it: Let yourself surprise what you will do next.

My experience after - hmm - thirty-five years of fiddling around with goals, projects and all that other self-management-success-achievement-stuff is that a lot of our goals are, in fact, stupid. At least a lot of mine have been, and I have achieved a lot of goals that were no achievement at all on a scale of happiness, but merely a waste of time and energy.

On the other hand, nothing is as powerful as a motivation than a goal that appears reachable. Milestones, fueled by imagination, can really put us in fast forward mode.

So, what I do is: I maintain a (short) list of GOALS in my WEEK CALENDAR: Things I'd like to have achieved/completed by the end of the week. Ordered by importance (=if I had to choose only one of them, the one I choose is nr. 1, and so on).

But what I have to actually DO goes on the AF list. Everything. (With the exception of appointments and other time fixed tasks.) Because this is where my subconscious - which is, I hope, wiser than my conscious thinking - can interfere.

As far as Lakein is concerned: He surely is a honorable ancestor of today's self management systems, but I firmly believe that what he teaches only provides results if you forget enough of it so that some fuzziness may come into play. He's too rational, and RATIONALITY LIMITS!

Good Morning Andreas,

>>> >>I ask: "Am I really really really commited to doing this in the coming week?"<<

In my understanding this is almost the opposite of the AF system. <<<

Well, be that as it may, things have a nature and you get from them according to their nature. If you put things on your list that you don't intend to do, they you get different results than if you put things on you intend to do.

>>> In AF, I put every task on the list, but I DON'T KNOW whether I am committed to do it or not: It is in the moment the task stands out that I know it. Or, how Mark puts it: Let yourself surprise what you will do next. <<<

That is one way of running the list, to be sure. If it works for you, that's supper.

>>> My experience after - hmm - thirty-five years of fiddling around with goals, projects and all that other self-management-success-achievement-stuff is that a lot of our goals are, in fact, stupid. At least a lot of mine have been, and I have achieved a lot of goals that were no achievement at all on a scale of happiness, but merely a waste of time and energy. <<<

Yes, Mark has made that argument to me. I have found the opposite to be true. My values at the time I set the goals determined those goals and they were not stupid, given those values. Now over time, my values have shifted somewhat, and so some goals have also changed. However, we do the best we can given our state of knowledge at the time. If we waited for perfect understanding before acting, nothing would get done.

>>> On the other hand, nothing is as powerful as a motivation than a goal that appears reachable. Milestones, fueled by imagination, can really put us in fast forward mode. <<<

I agree.

>>> So, what I do is: I maintain a (short) list of GOALS in my WEEK CALENDAR: Things I'd like to have achieved/completed by the end of the week. Ordered by importance (=if I had to choose only one of them, the one I choose is nr. 1, and so on). <<<

I do as well. But those are driven by longer term goals. I may have "Finish Reading Book X" on my list, but reading that particular book is driven by the goal to learn about that subject area. And that is driven by the goal to become more educated, etc. Goals exist in a hierarchy. You would never study for an exam if you did not have the goal of passing the course. You'd never want to pass the course if you did not want the degree. You'd ... well, you get it. Later in life my may indeed decide that getting a degree in that subject to make your life's work Y, was not what made you truly happy. You'd rather have learned basket weaving in a commune or something ;-)

>>> But what I have to actually DO goes on the AF list. >>>

So far I'm with you, except that some of my short term goals are also on the list rather than put on a calendar. But it amounts to the same thing.

>>> Everything. (With the exception of appointments and other time fixed tasks.) Because this is where my subconscious - which is, I hope, wiser than my conscious thinking - can interfere. <<<

Ah, so either you are not plagued by the kind of overactive mind that sees excitement in every thing that crosses his path ... or you have a list of crazy stuff like plagued me. Think about it, I can't be the only one ... the name "grass catcher" was not invented by me. The existence of that term, and the problem is solves indicates that others have confronted distraction and found that recording it, putting it OUT of mind (not reviewing it 10 times a day) and getting to making a decision about it later helped keep them on track.

>>> As far as Lakein is concerned: He surely is a honorable ancestor of today's self management systems, but I firmly believe that what he teaches only provides results if you forget enough of it so that some fuzziness may come into play. He's too rational, and RATIONALITY LIMITS! <<<

Well, that is were we profoundly disagree. The alternative to rationality is irrationality and I have spent my life working to enhance the former and eradicate the latter. I fully understand the role of the subconscious mechanisms of the mind ... and I see those neither as irrational, nor divorced from thinking. It is precisely when the subconscious functions are NOT based on reason that they produce results which cause us pain.

Certainly tying one's shoes in the morning (a largely subconscious act) is a helpful function of the subconscious mind. But being afraid of closed spaces is not. Both are examples of the subconscious mind working according to the rules WE gave it earlier in life. The first is from a set of instructions that is helpful, the second, not so much. But BOTH are an invertible result of our nature. The only difference is that the first set of instructions was rationally arrived at (at least by your parents ;-) and the second not.

So I will have to disagree with the use of AF as a tool to avoid thinking.

Hi Andreas,

Re. stupid goals, I find that when I am less conscious about my goals is when they become stupid, or I forget the essence of what really makes me feel fulfilled. I think that Lakein's method of determining goals cuts to the heart of that and makes your goals smart. Particularly this question:

"If I knew now I would be struck dead by lightning six months from today, how would I live until then?"

Previous to this, I didn't have a single task on my AF list related to spending more time with friends and family which would be one of my top goals if I truly did only have 6 months to live. And I rarely had any tasks relating to this throughout my list of the last 7 months - as a consequence, since starting AF, it seems I've spent less time with my friends than ever (and too much time on this forum - because I like talking to people, and this method of relating is effortless - not that I don't think you guys are great - but I really should be spending more time with my physical friends).

I think this is because AF can be somewhat reactive vs. active. Also because I tend to think about work a lot, which isn't what I'd be doing in my last 6 months. So, since I am reactive as well with respect to making sure I spend time with my friends, if they call me and suggest meeting up, I will go, but I rarely think of calling them. But in reviewing that goal, I can put contacting friends on my list and be more proactive. In that case, I wouldn't want the filter of one week, because I want to ensure I get around to it, and knowing me, I'd dismiss it for now.

Re. Lakein and rationality limiting us, in a nutshell what he's saying is - go for what really leads to results, go for what makes you happy and fulfilled. Quit wasting your time on doing or over-doing things that can be deferred or delegated or that don't provide any value to you. Improve the quality of your choices. How can that be stupid?

We do have to be rational about it because people's brains are essentially irrational and our *intuition* is more often just animal instinct dressed up with a fancy name. Intuition is great - IF what's on the list isn't stupid and a *relative* waste of time to begin with.

Jacqueline,

RE: Dismissing meeting with friends. Why no? Really! If you are not actually willing to call a friend this week, should you not face that fact and see what your values are? And if you dismiss it, so what? Next week, it will be there staring at you again and you'll have to ask why it is being put off.

One thing that helps with that is to put a "tick" against each item you review on your someday maybe list. Or a tick each time a thing is dismissed. It will prompt you to ask why you have put this off for 12 weeks. Certainly that suggests you ought to be questioning your values and time allocation ... no?

Hey Mike,

There's no way I'm going to be reviewing my dismissed items or having a someday / maybe list - and you can't make me. :-)
Unlike you, I'm completely ok with forgetting that stuff. ;-)

My values DO include spending time with my friends, but the pesky critters don't make it onto the list unless I consciously put them there. I blame my parents / a rather bizarre childhood. :-) Although my son is the same way, so it must just be genetic...

I did go through my whole list last night and did some major pre-dismissal, and a bit of adding. My criterion was more around 2 weeks out - which was the optimal time for me to percolate + complete pages. The reason for that is because I work on my big home projects more on weekends and about every second weekend, I either work all weekend (client) or go camping. My son has also been great lately with helping out and I run out of things for him to do without me if I don't have a bit more on the list. Thanks for reminding me to do that, it felt awesome.

I have to say I agree with Andreas regarding putting everything into the list. Using the unfiltered task entry basis and intuition gave me far more insight into the roots of my procrastination than any form of rational thinking. Yes I knew rationally what I need to do but the fact that I wasn't doing it, despite having all that rational knowledge, was a pretty good indicator that, for me at least, rational thinking just didn't cut it.

AF1 totally surprised me, not just in the volume of what I achieved, but by identifying how some of the tasks I viewed as unimportant actually had a significant impact on my wellbeing in varied and sometimes pretty subtle ways.

With AF2 and RAF my focus is somewhat different in that I am somewhat more selective about what goes on my list BUT that is partly because I have pretty in depth experience of how AF works and realise that with the revised version the speed of action has increased to a degree that I can be pretty certain that virtually everything that goes on my list will be done and done soon. Consequently it has been a practical step to build in a time lag by the use of better diarying of future events but random thoughts can still go on the list and if necessary actioned by being sent to my review list, which is in two sections - to review later and someday/maybe. Consequently I have ready access to all those potential tasks or wish list items which I can choose to include in my list when the time is right.

With the exception of holiday type "must do before leaving" checklists, I have never had so much confidence in the ability of a list of things I wish to do, to actually get what needs to be done done, and done at the right time. Whilst my line of doom is still moving through March (yes really!) I only have 21 active tasks dated since I started AF2 - and only 83 active tasks now in total. I started AF2 with 362 active tasks and have entered 450 new tasks since that date, so, to me at least, that is pretty amazing!

Christine, that's incredible. Way to go!

Thanks Mel - now down to 80 :-)

Hey Christine, so glad it's working great for you! Don't get me wrong, it's still working great for me - I just want it to kick it up a notch and work even better. For me, that means the answer is two-fold - making sure that what's important goes ON the list to begin with - and that I don't sacrifice that to the mundane. Of course, if the maintenance activities are critical to my well-being, they become A's and are not C's. I will still want to do them - I just don't want to sacrifice my life to C's. Mel, you know what I mean - something like cooking your meals for the week when you're following BFL is absolutely an A-level activity because you will eat crap if you don't have those meals prepared.

I look at time the same way that I do money. We don't have an infinite supply of time, just like we don't have an infinite supply of money. So when you get your monthly paycheque (or 24 hours of time), you take care of the important things - you pay the mortgage, save XX%, buy groceries, etc. Whatever is left, you spend however you want - if that's lattes at Starbucks or clothes or a vacation, it doesn't really matter because you've taken care of the essentials. But some people will buy lattes or shoes and put it on their credit card, and won't be able to make the mortgage payment because of their spending habits. And some people won't save that money for the future to follow their dream of early retirement or a lake cottage, or whatever their dreams happen to be because they're spending it on grande frappuccinos - which is a shame, because they think they CAN'T get there, but they really could if they identified that goal.

So sometimes, you do have to say "I'm not going to buy that grande frappuccino because if I do, I won't be able to retire early." Or maybe that's just me. Yes, it probably is just me. Like my son says "mom, if the average consumer was like you, fast food places would go out of business."

Re. the money analogies - sorry, I've been working all day reviewing legal claims with my brain immersed in finances - the only thing keeping me from going buggy is to post here. And of course, I am just doing this job for the money - mama needs a new pair of shoes! (Or more likely, new kitchen cabinets.) :-)

Jacqueline,

>>> There's no way I'm going to be reviewing my dismissed items or having a someday / maybe list - and you can't make me. :-) <<<

ROTF ;-) You could distinguish between "dismissed" and will maybe come back (in which case you "highlight" it with a big ole extra wide magic marker ;-) and those which might be reviewed. Just a thought. Actually, I kind of do that. Some stuff is completely deleted and never makes it to any list at all.

>>> Unlike you, I'm completely ok with forgetting that stuff. ;-) <<<

Oh, I'm O.K. with forgetting a lot of the stuff. I probably did not make it sound that way because of what we were discussing.

>>> My values DO include spending time with my friends, but the pesky critters don't make it onto the list unless I consciously put them there. I blame my parents / a rather bizarre childhood. :-) Although my son is the same way, so it must just be genetic... <<<

My point was that if you do not actually spend time with them then that is telling you about your "real" values ... not the ones you think you have. Values are what we do, not what we say we want to do.

>>> I did go through my whole list last night and did some major pre-dismissal, and a bit of adding. My criterion was more around 2 weeks out - which was the optimal time for me to percolate + complete pages. The reason for that is because I work on my big home projects more on weekends and about every second weekend, I either work all weekend (client) or go camping. <<<

Yeah, my "week" is just the way I do it. It could be any reasonable period. Your two weeks makes a whole lot of sense.

>>> My son has also been great lately with helping out and I run out of things for him to do without me if I don't have a bit more on the list. Thanks for reminding me to do that, it felt awesome. <<<

Great! It is fun to share ideas and get new insights here.

Mike, you said:
"Values are what we do, not what we say we want to do."

I agree, but not sure I would use the word values here. So what do we do when we are unhappy with our 'values' as defined by what we do? Like right now I am typing on this forum while I get dinner ready. This tells me that I value this forum more than I value being caught up on the laundry that my dh has set out for me to do (hint, hint). Maybe that value doesn't need to change or maybe if you're my dh, you think it does. :-)

It helps me to think about what I'm getting out of something rather than precisely what I'm doing. In other words, why am I posting right now? I think because writing about goals and time-management takes me away from tasks that are tedious and gives me my fix of new ideas. New=motivation for me. I think it's also because I'm in need of recreation after a long, busy weekend. Writing recreation on my AF list rather than all these detailed things to do seems to help me be aware of what's going on with me rather than mindlessly wandering. Sorry. I need to go finish dinner and laundry. I'm starting to make no sense.

Mike, I don't agree with this:

"My point was that if you do not actually spend time with them then that is telling you about your "real" values ... not the ones you think you have. Values are what we do, not what we say we want to do."

It's like your desire to get back into shape again. I am assuming that it is a "real" value of yours to be healthy and fit, yet you let it get on the backburner. We sometimes need to be reminded of these values because life gets in the way. And sometimes we need to be regularly reminded until it becomes automatic. We're all just creatures of habit unless we consciously change our patterns.

Hi Mel
On the contrary, you make a great deal of good sense!
learning

Hi Jacqueline
I concur....Although our most cherished values usually remain unchanged, the medium of our circumstances makes the priority of them fluid...........like the old philosphy exercise. Do you tell the commandant that your men are planning an escape because you value honesty?, While still valuing honesty, you lie..........because in this context, the values of loyalty and freedom merely trumps it in this circumstance and doesn't demote honesty one bit......Values are constant, but their relative priorities as acting causal agents are fluid . I'll stop while I'm behind....LOL.......... I'm going to take the cue that I'm perhaps too drugged! *blush*
learning

p.s. I won't even talk about conflicting values............*blush*

p.s.s. I'm NOT discussing ethics of convenience....rather the necessity of a fluid hierarchy as CAUSAL agents directing your actions.
learning as I go

Hi learning

Great points - your illustrations sum it up really well - I particularly like you last comment about "ethics of convenience".

Hi Jacqueline

You are absolutely right about how easy it is to get sidetracked by life and having clearly defined goals certainly helps to keep us on track. I think Mel makes a very good point when she says about the fact that posting helps her to get her thoughts in order (and so renew motivation). That is exactly what I find.

I know I am a lot more fluid when it comes to goal setting that both you and Mike but the fact that AF has enabled me to get more of a handle on my motivations has enabled me to see that, actually, I am not as far off track as I sometimes feel - it is just that I have realised that some of the changes I made "as a result of circumstances" were made for valid reasons and therefore kept me on track with my values if not always with my wishes. Looking back, I can see the lessons learned on those occasions when I have "gone off track" and those are valuable lessons - not always pleasant but at the end of the day (horrible phrase!) the benefits of those experiences outweigh the inconveniences. I can't say it always feel like that when you are going through a particularly tough time but in looking back ......

And if we have regrets over certain things - well, we can't change them, but we can use them to move forward rather than bemoaning our fate/stupidity or someone else's input which just keeps us stuck in the past and wasting our present.

PS I so envy (and I'm sorry 'cos envy is not nice!!) your weekend camping trips ....... :-)

Mel,

>>> Values are what we do, not what we say we want to do."

I agree, but not sure I would use the word values here. <<<

I was rushed and so fell into the trap of imprecision. Let me restate precisely:

Our values are REFLECTED by what we do, and are not necessarily what we SAY they ARE.

Better? ;-)

>>> So what do we do when we are unhappy with our 'values' as defined by what we do? Like right now I am typing on this forum while I get dinner ready. This tells me that I value this forum more than I value being caught up on the laundry that my dh has set out for me to do (hint, hint). Maybe that value doesn't need to change or maybe if you're my dh, you think it does. :-)
>>>

Your values are your values. I would think carefully about messing with them. I have not thought deeply enough about this ... deeply enough to be able to craft the words to express my ideas well. But I'll try ;-)

Values are one of the most primary aspects of personality. They drive everything else. Goals are not driven by values, for example, but our actions are and so if we are frustrated by our not being able to reach a goal, we need to look to values.

Your DH may wish that you DID something different, but what he really wants you to value is HIM, and his happiness (if he were to express it in words). Now he may THINK that doing the laundry is how he would like to see your valuing him EXPRESSED, but then that is just him. My wife wants to wear clean clothes and it is my job to keep them washed. (We are deep into role reversal ;-) But she does not feel that my valuing her is reflected in timely laundry. OTOH, I think that keeping her happy is a reflection of my valuing her.

At this moment, I've just awoken (did not sleep well last night so i'm three hours behind schedule ;-( She is late getting up as well and is rushing. I need to get her out the door and I'm cutting it close because I value this time, with my coffee, and my friends here ;-) BUT, I will get her a hot cuppa Joe to take out the door with her. If she needed to take lunch today, I'd already be making it. So I think my values are aligned here ... even though my schedule is tight. (Does that make any sense? I'm not sure. Today is going to be a rough one for words ;-(

But when I'm not doing what *I* think I should be doing, then I look to my values and see if they are what I think they are and if I do think they should change. How to go about changing values is a whole other post ... for when I'm thinking better than this morning ;-)

>>> It helps me to think about what I'm getting out of something rather than precisely what I'm doing. In other words, why am I posting right now? I think because writing about goals and time-management takes me away from tasks that are tedious and gives me my fix of new ideas. New=motivation for me. I think it's also because I'm in need of recreation after a long, busy weekend. Writing recreation on my AF list rather than all these detailed things to do seems to help me be aware of what's going on with me rather than mindlessly wandering. Sorry. I need to go finish dinner and laundry. I'm starting to make no sense. <<<

ROTF ;-) You seem to have been last night like I am this morning ;-) But I get what you are saying. And that is not a whole lot different than what I was getting at ... you are just saying it differently. "What you are getting out of it" is just part of the process of analyzing what the values are. And yes, there are multiple values reflected in actions. To keep to the same example you used ... I'm writing this because of these values:

- I value clarity of my thinking and writing here helps me rethink things ... the writing itself helps me clarify for myself.

- My mind is not focused well this morning so I'm avoiding doing other things that I need to be doing ... the value of my taking some time off is in conflict with the value of having certain other things under control. Recognizing that is helpful.

- Probably a few other things I might think of on a better day ;-)

Good Morning Jacqueline,

>>> Mike, I don't agree with this:

"My point was that if you do not actually spend time with them then that is telling you about your "real" values ... not the ones you think you have. Values are what we do, not what we say we want to do."

It's like your desire to get back into shape again. I am assuming that it is a "real" value of yours to be healthy and fit, yet you let it get on the backburner. <<<

But that is exactly my point. I SAY it is a real value. But if I let it get on the back burner then it is not REALLY a value. (Well, values are hierarchal so what I should really be saying is that its position on the hierarchy is not as high as I thought.)

>>> We sometimes need to be reminded of these values because life gets in the way. And sometimes we need to be regularly reminded until it becomes automatic. We're all just creatures of habit unless we consciously change our patterns. <<<

Yes, we are creatures of habit. But how are habits formed? By repeated actions. Why are THOSE actions taken? Because of our values. There is no way of getting around it ... we do what we do because of our values. If I goof off instead of working, it is because I value relaxation over work (stated simply ... perhaps much too simply but you probably get the idea.) If I want to change that, I have to look at my value hierarchy and examine it in detail. Why is it the way it is? Is it really going to serve me in the long run. Should I change it? Can I change it? How can I change it? If I change it, what will be the effects on my life? My other values? Etc.

Change at that level is hard but worthwhile if done properly.

Hey Christine,

Re. envy - I read somewhere that you should welcome your envy because that was a good sign of what you really want for yourself and should go after. I can see someone driving around in a big class A motorhome on a weekend I've decided to stay in town and not feel anything but "gee, I hope they don't have to make loan payments on that." But when I see an old clunker motorhome go by when I am driving to work, I'm pea green with jealousy that they can travel during the week while I'm stuck going to work at a job I'm not excited about.

I'm jealous of people's houses that are neat all the time. And people whose dogs behave well and don't go crazy over balls. People who can sleep in and don't have a wacky internal clock. People who are decisive and don't dither about what colour of off-white tile to buy. People who are skinny naturally and say stupid things like "I crave vegetables" or "I forgot to eat" (well, I do that one sometimes) and don't have to always work at it.

Thanks Jacqueline - that makes me feel so much better!! :-)