FV and FVP Forum > Struggling: "Standing Out" keeps trying to take over
I'm not certain it's a problem, or if it is, I'm not sure what to do about it. But I resonate with the perception of an issue.
March 30, 2012 at 21:36 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
I don't know if this truly answers your question or not, but (using a pen and paper implementation) I do think about every task upon entry, just enough to come up with a wording for the desired outcome. In GTD-esque fashion, I state it as a phrase in the past tense, to describe a static state that I wish to achieve. I have decided long ago that if I can't even define it at least that well, then it's just clutter in my system. (not unreasonable really, if you can't even say the desired end state in a sentence fragment, then what's the point in committing yourself in any degree to doing it?)
So "Srategy reviewed," "Required proposal docs gathered," "Bathroom painted," "Design meeting set up," "Shopping list brainstormed" etc. I don't force myself to define it any further than that, just a quick snapshot of what the end state would look like.
When scanning the list for the next task to preselect, a quick glance at a task such as this generally also puts in my mind the next action on the given task. This next action feels like an "afterthought" that occurs to me a fraction of a second after reading the actual phrase I wrote. This short phrase, combined with its next action afterthought occurs to me quickly enough that I can still breeze through my list during preselection. Experience shows me that if I do not keep breezing through the list, then the "afterthought" next action will begin to grow into a plan. Hence the need to keep on breezing. Oftentimes the afterthought next action occurs to me when I've already gotten 1 or 2 tasks below it on the list!
That being said, specifically with emails, I have an item on my FV list for "Emails run down" and when working that task I try to apply GTD's 2 min rule and answer every email that would take me less that 2 min to handle on the spot, only writing tasks on my FV list for those emails that require more work to answer. (eg: "TPS report sent to bossman")
That's how I work it and I have no trouble with it myself. I hope that helps in some way!
So "Srategy reviewed," "Required proposal docs gathered," "Bathroom painted," "Design meeting set up," "Shopping list brainstormed" etc. I don't force myself to define it any further than that, just a quick snapshot of what the end state would look like.
When scanning the list for the next task to preselect, a quick glance at a task such as this generally also puts in my mind the next action on the given task. This next action feels like an "afterthought" that occurs to me a fraction of a second after reading the actual phrase I wrote. This short phrase, combined with its next action afterthought occurs to me quickly enough that I can still breeze through my list during preselection. Experience shows me that if I do not keep breezing through the list, then the "afterthought" next action will begin to grow into a plan. Hence the need to keep on breezing. Oftentimes the afterthought next action occurs to me when I've already gotten 1 or 2 tasks below it on the list!
That being said, specifically with emails, I have an item on my FV list for "Emails run down" and when working that task I try to apply GTD's 2 min rule and answer every email that would take me less that 2 min to handle on the spot, only writing tasks on my FV list for those emails that require more work to answer. (eg: "TPS report sent to bossman")
That's how I work it and I have no trouble with it myself. I hope that helps in some way!
March 30, 2012 at 21:56 |
Miracle
Miracle
Good points, Seraphim. I strive to write each task starting with an action verb. Since I'm using a pencil and index cards at present, I'm also trying to limit the number of verbs to just a handful, to allow sorting the cards (alphabetically) by types of activity. Currently, I have only 7 to 9 verbs on my 'approved' list (Build and Maintain are being considered but not used yet). For example, I had a lot of tasks for contacting people, that started with the verbs Call, Text, Email, Ask, Tell, Send, Visit, etc. Now they all start with Contact, and I add the more specific details at the end, or on a separate line, if necessary. This clarity of describing the actions helps during scanning and execution. For example, in the past I would get stuck on a task like "Call Mr. X" – not because I didn't have a phone handy, but because I didn't want to be tied up on the phone at the time. Now it says "Contact Mr. X" so I can send a text or email if I prefer, and move on with the list. Using a limited set of action verbs does require additional thinking at the point of entry, but a pencil and eraser allow for random badly-worded entries that can be fixed when scanning.
March 30, 2012 at 22:02 |
ubi
ubi
As an addendum to my previous post: oftentimes too the afterthought next action that occurs to me is "???". Kindof the internal equivalent of a blank stare. I do tend to occasionally create preselect lists with a theme of defining said blank stares, and this usually requires some kind of action (generally this means following up with the originator of the task, or brainstorming via Mark Forster's "progressive revision" if the originator is my own vague self.)
March 30, 2012 at 22:02 |
Miracle
Miracle
Miracle,
Your method of describing tasks using the desired outcome in passive voice is what I use for my checklists. It makes sense for routine activities that need to be completed in one go. I also used that method back in my GTD days, for the title line of each Project (= anything requiring more than one Next Action [NA]). But for AF, FV, etc., I prefer a true NA description which is more like a command starting with an action verb. The idea is to keep yourself moving and doing. If I wrote "Strategy reviewed" instead of "Review strategy," I think I would have more resistance if I knew I couldn't complete it in one go. This may all be just a lot of syntactical trivia, but the way we describe things does influence how we think about them.
Your method of describing tasks using the desired outcome in passive voice is what I use for my checklists. It makes sense for routine activities that need to be completed in one go. I also used that method back in my GTD days, for the title line of each Project (= anything requiring more than one Next Action [NA]). But for AF, FV, etc., I prefer a true NA description which is more like a command starting with an action verb. The idea is to keep yourself moving and doing. If I wrote "Strategy reviewed" instead of "Review strategy," I think I would have more resistance if I knew I couldn't complete it in one go. This may all be just a lot of syntactical trivia, but the way we describe things does influence how we think about them.
March 30, 2012 at 22:11 |
ubi
ubi
Seraphim -
I'm also having problems with the question. When I ask myself "What do I want to do before I..." I lose focus of the task during the scan. Additionally, by the time I'm mid-way through the scan, I start choosing items based on urgency, pleasure, etc., but not necessarily because I want do them before....
Still, I'm enjoying the rules and workflow, and will continue to ask the question, and try not to get too hung up on how/why I'm dotting tasks/projects.
I'm also having problems with the question. When I ask myself "What do I want to do before I..." I lose focus of the task during the scan. Additionally, by the time I'm mid-way through the scan, I start choosing items based on urgency, pleasure, etc., but not necessarily because I want do them before....
Still, I'm enjoying the rules and workflow, and will continue to ask the question, and try not to get too hung up on how/why I'm dotting tasks/projects.
March 30, 2012 at 22:17 |
avrum
avrum
I'm with the other posters. If it's list-worthy, it's worth a bit of planning as you write it down. It rarely takes me long. All I need to know is how hard it will be to keep it moving at the right speed. That tells me whether I need to define the rest soon, or can let it wait. If I don't know, then finding out becomes the next step, and it has a degree of urgency. Sometimes the first step in planning is let it sit for a while on the list while my subconscious works on it.
That first few moments on the task needs to be done sometime, and may as well be done early.
If vague tasks often appear on your list, then "expand tasks" could be part of your daily routine, or a task on the list. Only the last few will need expanding -- the earlier ones will already be done.
That first few moments on the task needs to be done sometime, and may as well be done early.
If vague tasks often appear on your list, then "expand tasks" could be part of your daily routine, or a task on the list. Only the last few will need expanding -- the earlier ones will already be done.
March 30, 2012 at 22:22 |
Cricket
Cricket
Seraphim:
<< This leads me to think that FV does not work as well as AF as a "catch all" process. But maybe I am having this problem only because of my OneNote approach. >>
I can't remember the details of your OneNote approach, but I've been using Avrum's Evernote approach which I imagine is similar. "The List" consists of the titles of the notes. When scanning the List, you can't see the contents of the notes, only the note title. You can't stop to look at the contents of individual notes because that disrupts the scanning process. It's therefore very important that the note title is worded correctly.
In Evernote the note is automatically titled with the first line of the note, unless I override it by typing in something else. So the key to things like emails, webpages, etc. is simply to ensure that the title reflects the task, e.g.
Read Fusion paper for Project X
Read Agenda for 1 April Development meeting
Reply Bill re Conference Calls
Consider Squarespace Special Offer
I'm not really into action verbs in tasks, so my own version of the above would be:
Fusion paper (Project X)
Agenda 1 April Development meeting
Bill re Conference Calls
Squarespace Special Offer?
To my mind if you can't write a title which gives you "a clear idea in your head what the item is, or what action it is calling for" then the item is probably just filler anyway and you should delete it immediately.
<< This leads me to think that FV does not work as well as AF as a "catch all" process. But maybe I am having this problem only because of my OneNote approach. >>
I can't remember the details of your OneNote approach, but I've been using Avrum's Evernote approach which I imagine is similar. "The List" consists of the titles of the notes. When scanning the List, you can't see the contents of the notes, only the note title. You can't stop to look at the contents of individual notes because that disrupts the scanning process. It's therefore very important that the note title is worded correctly.
In Evernote the note is automatically titled with the first line of the note, unless I override it by typing in something else. So the key to things like emails, webpages, etc. is simply to ensure that the title reflects the task, e.g.
Read Fusion paper for Project X
Read Agenda for 1 April Development meeting
Reply Bill re Conference Calls
Consider Squarespace Special Offer
I'm not really into action verbs in tasks, so my own version of the above would be:
Fusion paper (Project X)
Agenda 1 April Development meeting
Bill re Conference Calls
Squarespace Special Offer?
To my mind if you can't write a title which gives you "a clear idea in your head what the item is, or what action it is calling for" then the item is probably just filler anyway and you should delete it immediately.
March 31, 2012 at 1:43 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
avrum:
<< Still, I'm enjoying the rules and workflow, and will continue to ask the question, and try not to get too hung up on how/why I'm dotting tasks/projects. >>
Good!
<< Still, I'm enjoying the rules and workflow, and will continue to ask the question, and try not to get too hung up on how/why I'm dotting tasks/projects. >>
Good!
March 31, 2012 at 1:46 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Seraphim, wouldn't an Inbox that captures all the incoming items solve your issue? You could then have a recurring task item in the FV list that says "clear the Inbox". When you dot the task, you could go through and clarify each item before adding to the end of FV list?
GC
GC
March 31, 2012 at 22:08 |
Greenchutney
Greenchutney
Greenchutney:
<< Seraphim, wouldn't an Inbox that captures all the incoming items solve your issue? >>
I've been trying several ways of doing this with Evernote - the choice basically being does new stuff into Evernote go into "The List" or into "In-Box"?.
The problem I've found with In-Box in the past is that it tends to fill up quite quickly and then become something that gets resisted. The trouble is that there are just too many things that have to be done to get something out of the InBox - they have to be routed to a different notebook and tagged appropriately. This is tedious work once it has been allowed to build up.
Putting things directly into The List on the other hand can swamp the list with things that are undefined (and i don't have anything like the volume that Seraphim has).
In the days before I used either InBox or The List, I used to manage notes by exception. They all went into "General" untagged unless I felt a particular need to tag them or put them into a specific notebook. This actually makes far better use of Evernote's ability to manage unorganized information.
So I wonder if the answer to Seraphim's problem is not to put new stuff into The List unless it is a clear and specific task or project. All the rest could go into General and only be sorted/organized/actioned if and when it impinged on his consciousness. I think this might save him a vast amount of unnecessary work, while still keep stuff available when he needs it.
I'm going to try this myself and see how it works.
<< Seraphim, wouldn't an Inbox that captures all the incoming items solve your issue? >>
I've been trying several ways of doing this with Evernote - the choice basically being does new stuff into Evernote go into "The List" or into "In-Box"?.
The problem I've found with In-Box in the past is that it tends to fill up quite quickly and then become something that gets resisted. The trouble is that there are just too many things that have to be done to get something out of the InBox - they have to be routed to a different notebook and tagged appropriately. This is tedious work once it has been allowed to build up.
Putting things directly into The List on the other hand can swamp the list with things that are undefined (and i don't have anything like the volume that Seraphim has).
In the days before I used either InBox or The List, I used to manage notes by exception. They all went into "General" untagged unless I felt a particular need to tag them or put them into a specific notebook. This actually makes far better use of Evernote's ability to manage unorganized information.
So I wonder if the answer to Seraphim's problem is not to put new stuff into The List unless it is a clear and specific task or project. All the rest could go into General and only be sorted/organized/actioned if and when it impinged on his consciousness. I think this might save him a vast amount of unnecessary work, while still keep stuff available when he needs it.
I'm going to try this myself and see how it works.
March 31, 2012 at 22:39 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
I've found just the opposite about next-action wording. Having spent several years GTD-izing myself into writing *everything* starting with an action verb, I quickly found that to be a non-starter for Mark's systems. Using SF, AF, or FV, I get very little out of scanning a list whose starting words are Call, Write, Search, Consider, Drive ... I get much, much more out of Bob, Grant proposal, kitten videos, Insurance, Boulder.
Having discovered this, now my list says "Insurance consider switch" or "Car clean windows" or "batteries buy AAA." This way, I often grasp the whole item upon reading the first word, and if that's not enough, I scan the next few until it locks in. But "Call" or "Contact"? It could be anything. Call Bob to chat ... Call insurance company re billing error ... Call attorney to discuss options ... these things are too dissimilar to go together under "Call."
So, if scanning is a problem, and you've been adhering to next-action verbs, try leading with the most distinctive word instead. This seems to be what Mark does too. It made a big difference for me.
Having discovered this, now my list says "Insurance consider switch" or "Car clean windows" or "batteries buy AAA." This way, I often grasp the whole item upon reading the first word, and if that's not enough, I scan the next few until it locks in. But "Call" or "Contact"? It could be anything. Call Bob to chat ... Call insurance company re billing error ... Call attorney to discuss options ... these things are too dissimilar to go together under "Call."
So, if scanning is a problem, and you've been adhering to next-action verbs, try leading with the most distinctive word instead. This seems to be what Mark does too. It made a big difference for me.
April 1, 2012 at 2:16 |
Bernie
Bernie
Regarding the Inbox idea - yes, I've tried some ideas along these lines, and I've had the same experience as Mark. The inbox turns into a pile of resistance, adding unwelcome overhead to the system. It's not clear to me how Mark's suggestion not to put new stuff into The List unless it is a clear and specific task or project, but put it on a General list instead, is really any different then putting it in an In Box. (Mark, please let us know how your experiment goes!)
One of the reasons I switched to OneNote about a year ago (when I was using rules very close to AF) was that I could very easily and quickly add *anything* to the end of my list, without any preprocessing at all, and AF would sort it all out.
Here are the kinds of things I would add. AF sorted them out just fine, but FV is having trouble with these. They are really NOT just filler items, as I think you will see... Do you have any tips for handling these kinds of things more effectively in FV?
- Meeting notes - With AF, when these items would stand out, I'd (1) extract any required action or follow-up, and re-enter those as new tasks, and (2) file the notes away with other similar meeting notes. With FV, these don't often scream at me, "I want to do this before X!" So they sit there, not getting timely attention.
- Screen shots - Let's say I'm doing some research on Amazon, trying to find a battery charger or something. So I take some screen-shots of the items that I like, and each image (with a handy URL to show where it came from) goes straight to the end of my OneNote list. Here is how those items get processed afterwards. With AF, after scanning these items once or twice in the normal course of processing the list, and letting the items percolate in my mind, the "right choice" would eventually just stand out, and I'd go ahead and make the purchase. Or maybe I'd realize I need to do more research, so I file away the screen shots into a project folder for future review, and put "Battery chargers - what's next?" on my list. With FV, I just don't know what to do with these images. I can give each screen shot a title or something, but what is the actual clear TASK? In AF, I never really had to define that, the image itself prompted the task, and it would take shape as the task progressed.
- Emails - I follow common methods when dealing with email -- clear it all out to zero in batches several times per day; if an email can be dealt with quickly, just deal with it immediately; otherwise it goes onto my OneNote list for processing (the email itself is copied to the list, with the subject as the title). Maybe that means it's a long email that I just can't delete, and I simply need to spend 10 minutes reading it. Maybe I already read it once when I cleared my email, but it needs more consideration. Maybe it needs a careful response, not just quick one. Maybe it's connected to a project and I need to review it together with other project tasks before taking any action on it. Maybe it's just junk or filler. In all these cases, I would just move it to OneNote, and the email itself becomes a task on my list. In AF, sometimes I would write a quick line to remind myself what needs to be done next; but most of the time, the email itself, with the email subject line as the title, was enough for the email to get processed effectively, usually on the first pass. Anything that hung around too long was probably filler and would get dismissed or deleted. In FV, I have the same problem as with the other items I've mentioned. The email subject line is rarely enough to trigger the "Yes, do this before X!" response.
I could mention other kinds of things, like paper mail (scanned to OneNote with my super-fast and convenient ScanSnap), voicemails (the actual sound file), quick ideas and reminders, etc.
The common thread: With AF, I never needed to bother to specify a "next action". It was almost always clearly implicit in the item itself. I have become so accustomed to not need to specify the next action that I'm really at a loss how to handle these kinds of things. The necessity in FV to clearly specify the task seems to be adding overhead that wasn't required in AF, and I'm really having a hard time making it work.
Looking forward to suggestions! :-)
One of the reasons I switched to OneNote about a year ago (when I was using rules very close to AF) was that I could very easily and quickly add *anything* to the end of my list, without any preprocessing at all, and AF would sort it all out.
Here are the kinds of things I would add. AF sorted them out just fine, but FV is having trouble with these. They are really NOT just filler items, as I think you will see... Do you have any tips for handling these kinds of things more effectively in FV?
- Meeting notes - With AF, when these items would stand out, I'd (1) extract any required action or follow-up, and re-enter those as new tasks, and (2) file the notes away with other similar meeting notes. With FV, these don't often scream at me, "I want to do this before X!" So they sit there, not getting timely attention.
- Screen shots - Let's say I'm doing some research on Amazon, trying to find a battery charger or something. So I take some screen-shots of the items that I like, and each image (with a handy URL to show where it came from) goes straight to the end of my OneNote list. Here is how those items get processed afterwards. With AF, after scanning these items once or twice in the normal course of processing the list, and letting the items percolate in my mind, the "right choice" would eventually just stand out, and I'd go ahead and make the purchase. Or maybe I'd realize I need to do more research, so I file away the screen shots into a project folder for future review, and put "Battery chargers - what's next?" on my list. With FV, I just don't know what to do with these images. I can give each screen shot a title or something, but what is the actual clear TASK? In AF, I never really had to define that, the image itself prompted the task, and it would take shape as the task progressed.
- Emails - I follow common methods when dealing with email -- clear it all out to zero in batches several times per day; if an email can be dealt with quickly, just deal with it immediately; otherwise it goes onto my OneNote list for processing (the email itself is copied to the list, with the subject as the title). Maybe that means it's a long email that I just can't delete, and I simply need to spend 10 minutes reading it. Maybe I already read it once when I cleared my email, but it needs more consideration. Maybe it needs a careful response, not just quick one. Maybe it's connected to a project and I need to review it together with other project tasks before taking any action on it. Maybe it's just junk or filler. In all these cases, I would just move it to OneNote, and the email itself becomes a task on my list. In AF, sometimes I would write a quick line to remind myself what needs to be done next; but most of the time, the email itself, with the email subject line as the title, was enough for the email to get processed effectively, usually on the first pass. Anything that hung around too long was probably filler and would get dismissed or deleted. In FV, I have the same problem as with the other items I've mentioned. The email subject line is rarely enough to trigger the "Yes, do this before X!" response.
I could mention other kinds of things, like paper mail (scanned to OneNote with my super-fast and convenient ScanSnap), voicemails (the actual sound file), quick ideas and reminders, etc.
The common thread: With AF, I never needed to bother to specify a "next action". It was almost always clearly implicit in the item itself. I have become so accustomed to not need to specify the next action that I'm really at a loss how to handle these kinds of things. The necessity in FV to clearly specify the task seems to be adding overhead that wasn't required in AF, and I'm really having a hard time making it work.
Looking forward to suggestions! :-)
April 1, 2012 at 6:02 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Bernie:
<< "Insurance consider switch" or "Car clean windows" or "batteries buy AAA." >>
I'd be more likely to enter those items as:
Switch [car/house/life/] insurance?
Car windows
AAA Batteries
I probably do need to be reminded what I want to do about the insurance once I'd been reminded which insurance.
I don't need reminding what I want to do with the car windows or the AAA batteries.
<< "Insurance consider switch" or "Car clean windows" or "batteries buy AAA." >>
I'd be more likely to enter those items as:
Switch [car/house/life/] insurance?
Car windows
AAA Batteries
I probably do need to be reminded what I want to do about the insurance once I'd been reminded which insurance.
I don't need reminding what I want to do with the car windows or the AAA batteries.
April 1, 2012 at 8:54 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Seraphim:
<< It's not clear to me how Mark's suggestion not to put new stuff into The List unless it is a clear and specific task or project, but put it on a General list instead, is really any different then putting it in an In Box. >>
Because I can forget about it until I need it. It doesn't add any overhead or create any resistance.
<< It's not clear to me how Mark's suggestion not to put new stuff into The List unless it is a clear and specific task or project, but put it on a General list instead, is really any different then putting it in an In Box. >>
Because I can forget about it until I need it. It doesn't add any overhead or create any resistance.
April 1, 2012 at 8:57 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
In my FV Stack in Evernote are the following notebooks, the title of each note being the task:
FV 1 = THE FV list, so it shows up first
FV Completed - I need to add a routine task: 'Review, delete?' unless residual value in future (or transfer to another Stack).
FV LTBW =Let The Bastard Wait - this can hold sort of Inbox items. Of course I have a recurring task: 'Scan LTBW'
FV Resources = relevant copies of forum posts and other notes on FV
FV Routines = Daily, Weekly, Monthly etc - the body of each note contains the details of recurrent tasks, which I can copy as a new task/note in FV1
One of the benefits for me of using Evernote is that the routine tasks or Next Steps for projects can be contained in the body of the note in the form of a checklist. It makes me consider all the steps, and then feel good about checking off the task/next steps so that I am able to see progress.
For an Inbox I have another notebook into which I dump stuff, often while using the web, which I scan later to see if the item should be transferred into FV, or another notebook. This is called 'Carpe Diem - capture stuff', however I guess my FV 1 could be renamed FV Carpe Diem as it implies action!
All in all, FV is the best yet, for me.
FV 1 = THE FV list, so it shows up first
FV Completed - I need to add a routine task: 'Review, delete?' unless residual value in future (or transfer to another Stack).
FV LTBW =Let The Bastard Wait - this can hold sort of Inbox items. Of course I have a recurring task: 'Scan LTBW'
FV Resources = relevant copies of forum posts and other notes on FV
FV Routines = Daily, Weekly, Monthly etc - the body of each note contains the details of recurrent tasks, which I can copy as a new task/note in FV1
One of the benefits for me of using Evernote is that the routine tasks or Next Steps for projects can be contained in the body of the note in the form of a checklist. It makes me consider all the steps, and then feel good about checking off the task/next steps so that I am able to see progress.
For an Inbox I have another notebook into which I dump stuff, often while using the web, which I scan later to see if the item should be transferred into FV, or another notebook. This is called 'Carpe Diem - capture stuff', however I guess my FV 1 could be renamed FV Carpe Diem as it implies action!
All in all, FV is the best yet, for me.
April 1, 2012 at 12:19 |
Roger J
Roger J
Forgot to tick the email comments for this thread!
April 1, 2012 at 12:21 |
Roger J
Roger J
Seraphim wrote:
<<The inbox turns into a pile of resistance, adding unwelcome overhead to the system. It's not clear to me how Mark's suggestion not to put new stuff into The List unless it is a clear and specific task or project, but put it on a General list instead, is really any different then putting it in an In Box.>>
<<With FV, I just don't know what to do with these images. I can give each screen shot a title or something, but what is the actual clear TASK?>>
Instead of an In-Box, I have a monthly Free-Form notebook in EN similar to Roger’s 'Carpe Diem - capture stuff', I guess. This list lists all my steps in which I want to save comments, web pages and clippings, images, pdf’s, etc. that don't go straight into a project (they can easily be transferred to wherever I want later, however). Even it the image or whatever goes straight into a project, I might mention it here because this is sort of a journal, or record of events.
The main F-F list is just an index and can have EN page links to the attachments. Scanning this list is more interesting (than an in-box or a boring 'general' list) for project and FV items, etc. It aids in reminding me of follow-up on some things, as well.
The FV task can refer to the F-F list, or to the project (if the page was moved to one).
I would never throw all the things that catch my interest straight into the FV list.
<<The inbox turns into a pile of resistance, adding unwelcome overhead to the system. It's not clear to me how Mark's suggestion not to put new stuff into The List unless it is a clear and specific task or project, but put it on a General list instead, is really any different then putting it in an In Box.>>
<<With FV, I just don't know what to do with these images. I can give each screen shot a title or something, but what is the actual clear TASK?>>
Instead of an In-Box, I have a monthly Free-Form notebook in EN similar to Roger’s 'Carpe Diem - capture stuff', I guess. This list lists all my steps in which I want to save comments, web pages and clippings, images, pdf’s, etc. that don't go straight into a project (they can easily be transferred to wherever I want later, however). Even it the image or whatever goes straight into a project, I might mention it here because this is sort of a journal, or record of events.
The main F-F list is just an index and can have EN page links to the attachments. Scanning this list is more interesting (than an in-box or a boring 'general' list) for project and FV items, etc. It aids in reminding me of follow-up on some things, as well.
The FV task can refer to the F-F list, or to the project (if the page was moved to one).
I would never throw all the things that catch my interest straight into the FV list.
April 1, 2012 at 16:40 |
BKK
BKK
Mark,
<<I'd be more likely to enter those items as:
Switch [car/house/life/] insurance?
Car windows
AAA Batteries>>
Selecting a random page from my FV list, I found only 11 of 24 lines contained a verb. Scanning a few pages, I am not finding verbs such as "consider" or "think about." Instead, I see question marks as in your example above. When a verb does appear, it usually comes in the middle or at the end of the line. This is what has evolved over the 14 months that I've used your systems.
<<I'd be more likely to enter those items as:
Switch [car/house/life/] insurance?
Car windows
AAA Batteries>>
Selecting a random page from my FV list, I found only 11 of 24 lines contained a verb. Scanning a few pages, I am not finding verbs such as "consider" or "think about." Instead, I see question marks as in your example above. When a verb does appear, it usually comes in the middle or at the end of the line. This is what has evolved over the 14 months that I've used your systems.
April 1, 2012 at 18:27 |
Bernie
Bernie
I'm with the free-form notebook people. My main list reminds me to review it for urgent tasks. That review is slightly more wanted than the most wanted item that _might_ be lurking in the notebook. The goal of that review is to ensure that no wanted items are lurking.
(Anyone have a better description than 'wanted'?)
Most things in the notebook can wait. I can find things in it easily, it's portable, and it's complete. I deal with things in it (file, refine, toss, do) every so often, but, since I've already taken out anything I want to do soon, dealing with the rest can wait.
(Anyone have a better description than 'wanted'?)
Most things in the notebook can wait. I can find things in it easily, it's portable, and it's complete. I deal with things in it (file, refine, toss, do) every so often, but, since I've already taken out anything I want to do soon, dealing with the rest can wait.
April 2, 2012 at 16:33 |
Cricket
Cricket
Mark wrote:
<< << It's not clear to me how Mark's suggestion not to put new stuff into The List unless it is a clear and specific task or project, but put it on a General list instead, is really any different then putting it in an In Box. >>
Because I can forget about it until I need it. It doesn't add any overhead or create any resistance. >>
For me, at least half (probably 80%) of the "unformed" stuff that would go onto that General list, are things that really need to be done, soon. They are not filler, and not "someday/maybe" kinds of things.
So I can't just forget about them till I need them. I need the TM system to start processing and handling them right away.
With FV, it sounds like the final answer is:
- Make sure "the note title is worded correctly"
- "Ensure that the title reflects the task"
- Don't "put new stuff into The List unless it is a clear and specific task or project"
But this doesn't quite match the original description of the system, from Mark's announcement:
<< It is a "universal capture" system into which you can put all your ideas for action without prior editing. >>
Therefore, I am guessing Mark must have some in-system way of taking his occasional unclearly-formed tasks, and making them clearly formed to be more easily processed by FV.
I'll start a new thread to explore that theme.
<< << It's not clear to me how Mark's suggestion not to put new stuff into The List unless it is a clear and specific task or project, but put it on a General list instead, is really any different then putting it in an In Box. >>
Because I can forget about it until I need it. It doesn't add any overhead or create any resistance. >>
For me, at least half (probably 80%) of the "unformed" stuff that would go onto that General list, are things that really need to be done, soon. They are not filler, and not "someday/maybe" kinds of things.
So I can't just forget about them till I need them. I need the TM system to start processing and handling them right away.
With FV, it sounds like the final answer is:
- Make sure "the note title is worded correctly"
- "Ensure that the title reflects the task"
- Don't "put new stuff into The List unless it is a clear and specific task or project"
But this doesn't quite match the original description of the system, from Mark's announcement:
<< It is a "universal capture" system into which you can put all your ideas for action without prior editing. >>
Therefore, I am guessing Mark must have some in-system way of taking his occasional unclearly-formed tasks, and making them clearly formed to be more easily processed by FV.
I'll start a new thread to explore that theme.
April 2, 2012 at 18:14 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Seraphim, while waiting for you to start the new thread, I'd like to share a thought I had about your predicament (that actually came to me when riding my bicycle yesterday – no foolin'!).
As I understand it, you capture a lot of "stuff" on your list, much of which needs attention soon, and a fair portion of which is not well described when initially captured. It seems to me that you can stick with FV, and that it will not be a problem at all *if* you process the ladders fast enough. The genius of FV, in my opinion, is the root-task forcing function. In your situation, you need to process a lot of short ladders quickly so that a lot of your tasks become the root; this implies a lot of 1-, 2-, or 3-rung ladders. When each root task is actioned, you finally must face up to the vagueness with which it was worded, figure out "What is this?" and "What's the next action?" and either do it or rewrite it at the end of the list in a clear way so it has a chance to get chosen as a non-root task soon.
Does this make sense? Will it allow you to keep working in FV mode?
As I understand it, you capture a lot of "stuff" on your list, much of which needs attention soon, and a fair portion of which is not well described when initially captured. It seems to me that you can stick with FV, and that it will not be a problem at all *if* you process the ladders fast enough. The genius of FV, in my opinion, is the root-task forcing function. In your situation, you need to process a lot of short ladders quickly so that a lot of your tasks become the root; this implies a lot of 1-, 2-, or 3-rung ladders. When each root task is actioned, you finally must face up to the vagueness with which it was worded, figure out "What is this?" and "What's the next action?" and either do it or rewrite it at the end of the list in a clear way so it has a chance to get chosen as a non-root task soon.
Does this make sense? Will it allow you to keep working in FV mode?
April 2, 2012 at 18:31 |
ubi
ubi
Regarding the posts on "free form notebook" -- thanks for your ideas!
Some time back, there were some discussions on intermixing free-form items with regular AF pages, and I really took to that idea. That's what led to my OneNote process of putting everything I capture at the end of my AF list, whether the tasks involved were defined explicitly or not. It would always get processed. Sometimes it would be a little too slow -- but it would still always get processed.
At different times, I've tried keeping all those random captures in a separate list but found they wouldn't get processed fast or frequently enough, and they would grow into a pile of resistance.
But I guess I am in the minority. :-)
Some time back, there were some discussions on intermixing free-form items with regular AF pages, and I really took to that idea. That's what led to my OneNote process of putting everything I capture at the end of my AF list, whether the tasks involved were defined explicitly or not. It would always get processed. Sometimes it would be a little too slow -- but it would still always get processed.
At different times, I've tried keeping all those random captures in a separate list but found they wouldn't get processed fast or frequently enough, and they would grow into a pile of resistance.
But I guess I am in the minority. :-)
April 2, 2012 at 18:40 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Bernie - Thanks for bringing up the different ways of writing tasks. I also tend to go numb to repetitive action verbs, and find it works better to start with the main keyword and go from there. Thanks for your ideas. I think this will help me find a workable middle ground before "task is defined implicitly" and GTD-style "next action".
April 2, 2012 at 18:43 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Was wondering, Ubi, what are your approved action verbs?
April 22, 2012 at 13:28 |
James Levine
James Levine
I found AF to be a lot more forgiving here. I could just add anything I wanted to the list, and AF would sort it out. It could be an idea, a thought, an email, a piece of paper. When doing AF, I'd spend a moment looking at the item and getting a "feel" for it -- does this stand out? Should I pay attention to this? That moment was usually just a split second; but sometimes I'd take a little longer (5 seconds?) to ponder the item, to think what it was that I had in mind when I put it on the list, and to get that "feeling" whether the item "stood out" or not. That is how AF works: you take each item with some consideration, and go with the ones that grab you.
I am a having a little more trouble with the "what do I want to do before X?" question. This process is much faster -- scan quickly down the list, and dot the things that jar you enough to stop scanning. But many of my items aren't written in a way to make it easy to grasp in such a short scan, even what the item really is and why it's on my list.
This is partly due to my OneNote implementation: I can grab a whole web page and send it to OneNote, and that entire page becomes a "task". Or I can grab a whole email, or a screen shot, or a scanned paper mail, and these items themselves become the task. In AF mode, I would see the item, take that moment to consider what it is and whether it stands out, maybe take 1-2 seconds to scan over the details of the item a bit, and that would be enough to make the "stands out?" decision.
One of the "stand out" triggers would be "yes, I need to sort through this item and think about it some more, definitely need to do that, so just keep doing it right now". In other words, I'd briefly consider the item (as per AF rules), which would lead to the "yes, give this attention now" feeling, which lead to further reading, consideration, and action.
But with FV, it's somewhat jarring. I scan the item, and don't really have a clear idea in my head what the item is, or what action it is calling for. So, following the rules, I can either ignore it, or dot it. I don't want to ignore the item, because sometimes these email items can be pretty important and need same-day (but not immediate) attention. But I don't want to put a dot next to everything if I don't really even know what the item is.
What usually happens is this. I bend the rules, and take a few moments to consider what the thing is, and then think, "do I want to do this before X?" But at that point, I am already "into" the item, and it's hard to stop, dot the item, and continue scanning -- I've already started "working" on it in my mind, and don't want to stop! But this is operating in AF mode, not FV mode, and it doesn't work well to mix the two modes (at least not for me!).
Another approach that sometimes works is this: Maybe item #1 on my list is one of these vaguer items with no defined "next action". So I dot the item, and realize, "This session is going to be a 'get clarity' session." As I look for other items to dot, I find myself dotting all the other items that I can't clearly identify. And the action I take on all of them is simply to define the next action.
This fits in with the idea that every preselection session tends to follow a "theme". And this does work OK sometimes. But sometimes there are just too many items that need clarity. And some of them are urgent, and I find I am working on them too late.
This all leads me to think that FV does not work as well as AF as a "catch all" process. But maybe I am having this problem only because of my OneNote approach.
Sorry for rambling on so much about this, but I'm wondering if anyone else has dealt with this, and found a successful method of dealing with it. Any thoughts?