FV and FVP Forum > confused about FV method
It sounds like you are doing fine without FV.
For those of us who need FV, we have a character flaw. When we decide what we want to do moment-by-moment, we tend to do things like surf the internet or read the paper. But if you ask us what we want to be doing an hour from now, we answer with some kind of productive task.
I can see that a rational person might think the need for FV rather strange.
For those of us who need FV, we have a character flaw. When we decide what we want to do moment-by-moment, we tend to do things like surf the internet or read the paper. But if you ask us what we want to be doing an hour from now, we answer with some kind of productive task.
I can see that a rational person might think the need for FV rather strange.
April 3, 2012 at 13:25 |
moises
moises
Chris -
<<but it doesn't work for me. I feel more comfortable when...>>
That's great, you've found something that works.
<<but it doesn't work for me. I feel more comfortable when...>>
That's great, you've found something that works.
April 3, 2012 at 13:57 |
avrum
avrum
For me, working on a task might be nothing more than deciding to defer it to another time. The priorities I pick out of the list are only a snapshot in time, and may very well shift as other tasks are complete.
If you have a way of prioritizing your list that works for you, there's no reason to change it. I don't know that I have the dicipline to simply decide what to do if given a large number of options, so I like how FV breaks my list into manageable, important chunks.
If you have a way of prioritizing your list that works for you, there's no reason to change it. I don't know that I have the dicipline to simply decide what to do if given a large number of options, so I like how FV breaks my list into manageable, important chunks.
April 3, 2012 at 13:58 |
Stew
Stew
Thank you all.
It seems that this system is not for me. Main drawback is that it creates for me short task lists which are usually not accepted by my brain :).
It seems that this system is not for me. Main drawback is that it creates for me short task lists which are usually not accepted by my brain :).
April 3, 2012 at 14:22 |
Chris
Chris
Chris,
When I come across this situation (ie: I work on the report A, see that the next task is "sharpen knives" and decide that I don't want to sharpen the knives right now.) I DO pick other tasks. Much like you said you would prefer to do. I simply think to myself, "Well I DO want to sharpen knives - otherwise I would not suffer the task to live on my list, considering it no longer relevant and per FV rules I would simply delete it. But I don't want to sharpen the knives right now... So What Do I Want To Do BEFORE I Sharpen The Knives?". I would then go down the list from the sharpen knives task and re-create the second half of a "new" preselection.
If not that, then I might just cross sharpen knives off my list and re-enter it at the end to deal with later. Or just cross it off entirely if I don't want to sharpen the knives because I no longer see the value in it.
When I come across this situation (ie: I work on the report A, see that the next task is "sharpen knives" and decide that I don't want to sharpen the knives right now.) I DO pick other tasks. Much like you said you would prefer to do. I simply think to myself, "Well I DO want to sharpen knives - otherwise I would not suffer the task to live on my list, considering it no longer relevant and per FV rules I would simply delete it. But I don't want to sharpen the knives right now... So What Do I Want To Do BEFORE I Sharpen The Knives?". I would then go down the list from the sharpen knives task and re-create the second half of a "new" preselection.
If not that, then I might just cross sharpen knives off my list and re-enter it at the end to deal with later. Or just cross it off entirely if I don't want to sharpen the knives because I no longer see the value in it.
April 3, 2012 at 17:05 |
Miracle
Miracle
+JMJ+
Join the club, Chris ^___^
Join the club, Chris ^___^
April 3, 2012 at 17:49 |
nuntym
nuntym
A hunch: the need to justify, convince or debunk a belief or action, belies anxiety about one's choices. I've rarely seen people - comfortable in their decisions - spend too much energy proselytizing.
April 3, 2012 at 17:58 |
avrum
avrum
+JMJ+
Wait a minute, who's proselytizing here? "Join the club" here just means he is not the only one having problems with FV.
Wait a minute, who's proselytizing here? "Join the club" here just means he is not the only one having problems with FV.
April 3, 2012 at 18:41 |
nuntym
nuntym
I think people should look to a system to aid them with a specific TM issue they have. If selecting the next task is not one of your issues why use the feature. Each moment organizing is a moment not doing. I personally do not need a system to pick my next task, I do need it to have a complete capture of everything I need to be working on so I focus on completeness. Good luck
Gerry
Gerry
April 3, 2012 at 19:36 |
Gerry
Gerry
I would just add to the above that it is probably too much to hope that you'll never have to get on with a task that you just don't feel like doing. All of Mark's systems sooner or later present you with something that you just need to buckle down and get on with. And they tend to do this before it's too late to do them well.
In this case, it's cleaning the knives. It may be that however gently we've been led to it, we'll never actually, when it comes to it, want to clean those knives. In which case we have a simple choice: decide not to do it and strike it off the list or... do it.
In this case, it's cleaning the knives. It may be that however gently we've been led to it, we'll never actually, when it comes to it, want to clean those knives. In which case we have a simple choice: decide not to do it and strike it off the list or... do it.
April 3, 2012 at 20:38 |
Will
Will
As the rules say, if you come to your list and find it feels stale or wrong, you can throw away the dots and re-select. I find that sometimes happens after spending a lot of time on one task. Context has changed, priorities have changed, etc., in the intervening time.
You might want to try that rule before deciding whether the system is a good match for you or not. Just an idea...
You might want to try that rule before deciding whether the system is a good match for you or not. Just an idea...
April 4, 2012 at 0:38 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
If you didn't want to do it, then why did you select the task as something you'd like to do?
April 4, 2012 at 5:14 |
Zack Allen
Zack Allen
Because it *needs* to get done.
Sometimes I think I would rather try and move Mt. Everest over one inch than do the thing the really needs to get done - and I have been procrastinating because of fear, it might open a can of worms, etc.
The word "want” might have to be re-evaluated from the usual “wanting” to do it because it feels right (and I actually have a *desire* to do it), to "I WANT to do this because if I don't do it sooner or later, there will be severe consequences (even though I hate the mere *thought* of doing it).”
Sometimes I think I would rather try and move Mt. Everest over one inch than do the thing the really needs to get done - and I have been procrastinating because of fear, it might open a can of worms, etc.
The word "want” might have to be re-evaluated from the usual “wanting” to do it because it feels right (and I actually have a *desire* to do it), to "I WANT to do this because if I don't do it sooner or later, there will be severe consequences (even though I hate the mere *thought* of doing it).”
April 4, 2012 at 6:38 |
BKK
BKK
If something *needs* to be done, then you do it. By necessity. That, to me, is what *needs* means.
If I don't *want* to do something mundane (e.g. sharpen knives) before I clean the kitchen, then I don't select it in the chain. If, however, sharpening knives *needs* to happen before cleaning the kitchen, then I select it anyway and do something (anything) about it when it comes up. The OP said he simply doesn't want to do it. It wasn't a matter of "this is really important, but I just don't feel like it," it was "simply...I prefer [to] pick other tasks."
"Each of the root tasks is preceded by a short ladder of tasks which are in the order in which you want to do them. The number and difficulty of the tasks in the ladder tend to reflect the difficulty of the root tasks." -MF
"The selection process is based on what you want to do. This colours the whole preselected list so that even the first task, which you may not have wanted to do at all, gets affected. In addition, doing the list in reverse order, with the least wanted task last, uses structured procrastination to get the tasks done." -MF
I don't think that's an instance of the system needing repair. It's either a matter of not using it properly (i.e. choosing a task you don't *want* to do when the question is, "What do I want to do before X?"); changing your mind (which is perfectly fine, but again, doesn't mean the system is broken); or, in the case of a necessity, laziness.
If I don't *want* to do something mundane (e.g. sharpen knives) before I clean the kitchen, then I don't select it in the chain. If, however, sharpening knives *needs* to happen before cleaning the kitchen, then I select it anyway and do something (anything) about it when it comes up. The OP said he simply doesn't want to do it. It wasn't a matter of "this is really important, but I just don't feel like it," it was "simply...I prefer [to] pick other tasks."
"Each of the root tasks is preceded by a short ladder of tasks which are in the order in which you want to do them. The number and difficulty of the tasks in the ladder tend to reflect the difficulty of the root tasks." -MF
"The selection process is based on what you want to do. This colours the whole preselected list so that even the first task, which you may not have wanted to do at all, gets affected. In addition, doing the list in reverse order, with the least wanted task last, uses structured procrastination to get the tasks done." -MF
I don't think that's an instance of the system needing repair. It's either a matter of not using it properly (i.e. choosing a task you don't *want* to do when the question is, "What do I want to do before X?"); changing your mind (which is perfectly fine, but again, doesn't mean the system is broken); or, in the case of a necessity, laziness.
April 4, 2012 at 7:39 |
Zack Allen
Zack Allen
Chris:
Is there some reason why the three tasks you have selected are the first three tasks on the list? Most people giving an example like this would leave some gaps. You write as if the system requires you to do those tasks even though you don't want to do them. So I'm wondering whether you have simply misunderstood the instructions.
Is there some reason why the three tasks you have selected are the first three tasks on the list? Most people giving an example like this would leave some gaps. You write as if the system requires you to do those tasks even though you don't want to do them. So I'm wondering whether you have simply misunderstood the instructions.
April 4, 2012 at 9:31 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Thank you for all comments, it's interesting and I appreciate this. After reading some of them I see that FOR ME the best tool might be a list of tasks and common sense (or rather structured procratination method). I'm still interesting with FV method anyway, I feel that I can borrow some valuable approches.
@ Mark:
"Is there some reason why the three tasks you have selected are the first three tasks on the list?"
No, there isn't. I created chain of task by asking myself FV's root question: "What do I want to do before...".
1 - I dotted first task on the list.
2 - Ask myself "What do I want to do before clean the kitchen"
3 - Sharpen knives; YES (cleaning should be the last task in the kitchen)
4 - Ask myself "What do I want to do before sharping knives"
5 - "Write report A"; YES
6 - Ask myself "What do I want to do before write report A"
7 - Nothing, it's important task, I feel this it's the best choice and after scanning whole list I'm sure that this is the task which I feel I would like to start doing now.
Problem which I can see here is there is a lot of tasks which I would like to do before sharping knives and clean the kitchen but FV instructions doesn't support this. FV algorithm creates lists of actions which doesn't work for me, I don't feel comfortable with them. Of course, I can cross some tasks off and put it at the end of the list etc. but in my case I see that I would do it constantly and I can see no reason to cross off and rewrite tasks (waste of time).
I'm quite new here and all what I have are FV instructions from you newsletter. Maybe I'm wrong and I missed some valuable comments of yours among this website which kindly users pasted in this thread like Zack Allen (thanks).
regards,
@ Mark:
"Is there some reason why the three tasks you have selected are the first three tasks on the list?"
No, there isn't. I created chain of task by asking myself FV's root question: "What do I want to do before...".
1 - I dotted first task on the list.
2 - Ask myself "What do I want to do before clean the kitchen"
3 - Sharpen knives; YES (cleaning should be the last task in the kitchen)
4 - Ask myself "What do I want to do before sharping knives"
5 - "Write report A"; YES
6 - Ask myself "What do I want to do before write report A"
7 - Nothing, it's important task, I feel this it's the best choice and after scanning whole list I'm sure that this is the task which I feel I would like to start doing now.
Problem which I can see here is there is a lot of tasks which I would like to do before sharping knives and clean the kitchen but FV instructions doesn't support this. FV algorithm creates lists of actions which doesn't work for me, I don't feel comfortable with them. Of course, I can cross some tasks off and put it at the end of the list etc. but in my case I see that I would do it constantly and I can see no reason to cross off and rewrite tasks (waste of time).
I'm quite new here and all what I have are FV instructions from you newsletter. Maybe I'm wrong and I missed some valuable comments of yours among this website which kindly users pasted in this thread like Zack Allen (thanks).
regards,
April 4, 2012 at 11:06 |
Chris
Chris
Chris:
Thanks for the clarification. You were doing it according to the instructions. But what I am still not clear about is whether the problem you are describing is purely a theoretical one or whether you have actually tried FV in practice. I'm also not clear whether you have tried out your alternative method.
In real life, the list won't consist of 5 tasks, it will be more like 50-100 - for some people considerably more than that. The first task on the list will therefore have been on the list for quite some time. It's assumed that you intend to do it, or why would it be on the list at all? However you may well have had many opportunities to do it but have been putting it off.
What FV does is make the first item on the list compulsory. However since you have probably been putting it off some time it may be quite difficult for you to do straight off. FV therefore gives you a means of working up to it by constructing a chain of tasks which you want to do before you start tackling it. FV doesn't claim to produce the best possible order in which to do tasks but instead gives you a quick method of constructing a chain which will alow you to get the first task done. In the process you will get quite a bit of other work done, including the urgent tasks which tend to congregate at the end of the list.
Your suggested method of just picking the task that you feel like doing at the time doesn't work in practice because one usually ends up picking the easy tasks and avoiding the more difficult ones. FV is designed to overcome this.
Thanks for the clarification. You were doing it according to the instructions. But what I am still not clear about is whether the problem you are describing is purely a theoretical one or whether you have actually tried FV in practice. I'm also not clear whether you have tried out your alternative method.
In real life, the list won't consist of 5 tasks, it will be more like 50-100 - for some people considerably more than that. The first task on the list will therefore have been on the list for quite some time. It's assumed that you intend to do it, or why would it be on the list at all? However you may well have had many opportunities to do it but have been putting it off.
What FV does is make the first item on the list compulsory. However since you have probably been putting it off some time it may be quite difficult for you to do straight off. FV therefore gives you a means of working up to it by constructing a chain of tasks which you want to do before you start tackling it. FV doesn't claim to produce the best possible order in which to do tasks but instead gives you a quick method of constructing a chain which will alow you to get the first task done. In the process you will get quite a bit of other work done, including the urgent tasks which tend to congregate at the end of the list.
Your suggested method of just picking the task that you feel like doing at the time doesn't work in practice because one usually ends up picking the easy tasks and avoiding the more difficult ones. FV is designed to overcome this.
April 4, 2012 at 12:05 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Chris,
Maybe the first step in sharpening knives isn't actually sharpening, it's getting a good look at the task.
I often find that if I can get a good look inside a can of worms before opening it, it's not as bad as I feared. Most of the worms are small. The few big ones have weak spots. Or I can put a fence around it before opening, so the worms don't escape. Or if I open it in a certain way, the small worms can come out one at a time and the big one stays in (and maybe starve). Or I realize the can doesn't need to be opened at all, or I can give it to someone else.
Check out Little and Often, multiple-passes (I forget what Mark calls it, but it's similar to the snowflake method -- first pass gets a tiny bit of work and add more depth on each pass), and Just Get Out the Folder for ways to open the can without all the worms escaping at once.
Also, I prefer to work in a clean kitchen, so I want to do very little before cleaning. Get the greasy dishes dealt with, put away the leftovers, clear the table, and _then_ sit down with a mug of tea, the knife sharpening kit and some good music. Yes, there's a minute or two of cleaning when I'm done, but filling the sink twice is much nicer than working on a crowded, smelly table while the grease congeals.
Maybe the first step in sharpening knives isn't actually sharpening, it's getting a good look at the task.
I often find that if I can get a good look inside a can of worms before opening it, it's not as bad as I feared. Most of the worms are small. The few big ones have weak spots. Or I can put a fence around it before opening, so the worms don't escape. Or if I open it in a certain way, the small worms can come out one at a time and the big one stays in (and maybe starve). Or I realize the can doesn't need to be opened at all, or I can give it to someone else.
Check out Little and Often, multiple-passes (I forget what Mark calls it, but it's similar to the snowflake method -- first pass gets a tiny bit of work and add more depth on each pass), and Just Get Out the Folder for ways to open the can without all the worms escaping at once.
Also, I prefer to work in a clean kitchen, so I want to do very little before cleaning. Get the greasy dishes dealt with, put away the leftovers, clear the table, and _then_ sit down with a mug of tea, the knife sharpening kit and some good music. Yes, there's a minute or two of cleaning when I'm done, but filling the sink twice is much nicer than working on a crowded, smelly table while the grease congeals.
April 4, 2012 at 14:09 |
Cricket
Cricket
Guys, thanks for your input. Let me think about it and try this in the long run. I don't like to be theoretical about any system anymore because I've been doing it for so long and it doesn't work :). I believe that simple solutions work best and I'm a procrastinator so this is a rison I am here.
However, my case from the example is real... Maybe crossing off some tasks and add it in the end of my list is not a bad idea (let's say that I'm not in mood to do them, the conditions are not met etc.). Maybe in the long run it will turn out that is not a big drawback among other advantages which were metioned and such situations will be rare?
all best
However, my case from the example is real... Maybe crossing off some tasks and add it in the end of my list is not a bad idea (let's say that I'm not in mood to do them, the conditions are not met etc.). Maybe in the long run it will turn out that is not a big drawback among other advantages which were metioned and such situations will be rare?
all best
April 4, 2012 at 14:52 |
Chris
Chris
Two things I suggest.
1) For now, do take those things you aren't ready to do and move them to the end. In future, you will have several days preparation before new tasks get forced on you, and you'll be more able to tackle them then.
2) Little & Often. If you don't want to do the whole task, do a tiny bit. Or a medium bit. It's better than doing nothing, so that's a good thing.
1) For now, do take those things you aren't ready to do and move them to the end. In future, you will have several days preparation before new tasks get forced on you, and you'll be more able to tackle them then.
2) Little & Often. If you don't want to do the whole task, do a tiny bit. Or a medium bit. It's better than doing nothing, so that's a good thing.
April 4, 2012 at 15:16 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
My first post here, so I may be missing a nuance, but I see something that would affect this list for me. Cricket touched on it - it's the kitchen cleaning.
Chris wants to sharpen the knives before he cleans the kitchen because, "Cleaning should be the last task in the kitchen." I disagree for a number of reasons that don't matter, but I wonder, Chris, have you slipped into asking "what should I do before this?" instead of "what do I want to do before this?" If you have real strong feelings about knife-sharpening and kitchen cleanliness, then you may have asked the question correctly, but when I get stuck like this (in general - I'm very new to the FV) I've switched into shoulding things that don't need it.
Chris wants to sharpen the knives before he cleans the kitchen because, "Cleaning should be the last task in the kitchen." I disagree for a number of reasons that don't matter, but I wonder, Chris, have you slipped into asking "what should I do before this?" instead of "what do I want to do before this?" If you have real strong feelings about knife-sharpening and kitchen cleanliness, then you may have asked the question correctly, but when I get stuck like this (in general - I'm very new to the FV) I've switched into shoulding things that don't need it.
April 4, 2012 at 16:58 |
R.M. Koske
R.M. Koske
Cricket - I *really* like the idea of giving the can to someone else. I have some particular people in mind. LOL!
April 4, 2012 at 18:20 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Also, I think others have already mentioned this, but it's worth emphasizing: You don't need to COMPLETE each task -- but only take SOME ACTION on each one. If you take action but don't complete it, rewrite it at the end of the list. This is a critically important element of the system and generates the "little and often" effect that can be so helpful for overcoming resistance.
April 4, 2012 at 18:22 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Let's say I have 5 tasks:
- clean kitchen
- sharpen knives
- write report A
- call Bob re A
- work on project B
I dotted first one, than following FV instructions I ended up with final list of tasks (reverse order):
- write report A
- sharpen knives
- clean kitchen
It turned out that for me this list is totally useless because after "write report A" I don't want to sharpen knives and clean kitchen. Simply I don't want to do this, I prefer pick other tasks.
What's the point of FV then? From my point of view FV method try to sort my list and tell me what I should do next, but it doesn't work for me. I feel more comfortable when I scan my list without any limits, asking questions ("what I wanto do do BEFORE X") and simply decide what I want to do next - clean structured procrastination method.
Thanks.