FV and FVP Forum > What should and shouldn't an electronic system do?
Hi Steve,
I'm quite satisfied with my digital FV combo of EN Windows and EN Android. However, I'm still interested in minimalist guided FV web apps, such as your http://www.blanclist.com and Yunkyung Lee's http://keepfocustodo.com . I particularly like them for introduction to new FV users.
I and avrum gave our must have FV web apps features in KFT thread http://www.markforster.net/fv-forum/post/1759721 , basically ...
(1) Offline mode/option (local cache ala EN Android or HTML5 local storage with full sync)
(2) Long notes per task (such as EN notes body)
(3) Exporting of notes (such as text, CSV, jason or xml; and importing too)
Looking at both BL and KFT screens side by side, I see ...
(a) BL more paper like oldest on top list, whereas KFT (like EN Android) have newest on top list. I think this is just a nice to have feature, not must have.
(b) BL provide focused preselected task one by one, but KFT works on full preselected list unguided.
(c) BL provide "manage" button to abort/modifiy preselected list, KFT have to complete/reenter all preselected tasks.
(d) BL allow "edit" rephrase tasks while in list and work mode, but KFT don't allow rephrasing even when reentering.
(e) BL only shows "done" task in separate screen, KFT shows them in one screen just like paper (I like this better).
(f) BL hide "done" and "save" buttons in list mode until you click the task, KFT have the done (X) button clearly on all active tasks in the list (I like this better).
(g) BL don't have tagging, KFT don't but have tagging but have "context" that works as independent list, EN Android have full tagging features.
(h) BL don't have #2 long notes, but KFT & EN Android have.
(i) BL & KFT don't have #1 offline & #3 export, but EN Android have.
(j) What EN have that are fully used by FV users should be the benchmark digital FV features, not just what is possible on paper. See my summary of what EN features Mark uses in http://www.markforster.net/fv-forum/post/1779319 "Have you abandoned a paper notebook, Mark?" thread.
Sufficient thoughts? ;-}
I'm quite satisfied with my digital FV combo of EN Windows and EN Android. However, I'm still interested in minimalist guided FV web apps, such as your http://www.blanclist.com and Yunkyung Lee's http://keepfocustodo.com . I particularly like them for introduction to new FV users.
I and avrum gave our must have FV web apps features in KFT thread http://www.markforster.net/fv-forum/post/1759721 , basically ...
(1) Offline mode/option (local cache ala EN Android or HTML5 local storage with full sync)
(2) Long notes per task (such as EN notes body)
(3) Exporting of notes (such as text, CSV, jason or xml; and importing too)
Looking at both BL and KFT screens side by side, I see ...
(a) BL more paper like oldest on top list, whereas KFT (like EN Android) have newest on top list. I think this is just a nice to have feature, not must have.
(b) BL provide focused preselected task one by one, but KFT works on full preselected list unguided.
(c) BL provide "manage" button to abort/modifiy preselected list, KFT have to complete/reenter all preselected tasks.
(d) BL allow "edit" rephrase tasks while in list and work mode, but KFT don't allow rephrasing even when reentering.
(e) BL only shows "done" task in separate screen, KFT shows them in one screen just like paper (I like this better).
(f) BL hide "done" and "save" buttons in list mode until you click the task, KFT have the done (X) button clearly on all active tasks in the list (I like this better).
(g) BL don't have tagging, KFT don't but have tagging but have "context" that works as independent list, EN Android have full tagging features.
(h) BL don't have #2 long notes, but KFT & EN Android have.
(i) BL & KFT don't have #1 offline & #3 export, but EN Android have.
(j) What EN have that are fully used by FV users should be the benchmark digital FV features, not just what is possible on paper. See my summary of what EN features Mark uses in http://www.markforster.net/fv-forum/post/1779319 "Have you abandoned a paper notebook, Mark?" thread.
Sufficient thoughts? ;-}
April 14, 2012 at 3:42 |
sabre23t
sabre23t
Since beginning to practice FV, I've experimented with several ways of going about it in order to determine which method is best for me. I started out with a spiral notebook which I've been using since discovering Mark's work. It is the easiest way but can become cumbersome when transferring items to the page I'm currently working on. And it takes up space on my desk.
I also tried FV on Microsoft word for awhile and liked this way very much due to the ease of moving items up or down and crossing them off.
"Reminders," which comes with the iPhone is good but isn't FV ready because items cannot be moved within a task list. However, After learning about TaskPaper from Mark's blog, I found it the most enjoyable of all methods to use for several reasons: TP is portable. Tasks are easily crossed off and moved up and down within the list. And I can play with it, work with it, and fuss with my list at any odd moment. I like to finalize my list for the next day whilst lying in bed before sleep.
Finally, I'm most grateful for comments read on Mark's site because I'm learning more exquisite ways to put his marvelous teachings into practice.
I also tried FV on Microsoft word for awhile and liked this way very much due to the ease of moving items up or down and crossing them off.
"Reminders," which comes with the iPhone is good but isn't FV ready because items cannot be moved within a task list. However, After learning about TaskPaper from Mark's blog, I found it the most enjoyable of all methods to use for several reasons: TP is portable. Tasks are easily crossed off and moved up and down within the list. And I can play with it, work with it, and fuss with my list at any odd moment. I like to finalize my list for the next day whilst lying in bed before sleep.
Finally, I'm most grateful for comments read on Mark's site because I'm learning more exquisite ways to put his marvelous teachings into practice.
April 14, 2012 at 17:30 |
Randy Place
Randy Place
Things I'd love (a first-draft brainstorm, so some of the ideas need work and others may not survive rational thought.)
- Search feature so I can easily find entries in a long list. This is useful if I want to work on something that isn't dotted, and if I want to check whether I've already added it. (One task got added four times. It was important and obviously sucking up brain power, but I couldn't actually do it for several days.)
- Repeat tasks at intervals. When I mop the floor, set it to go back on the list in a week. Also repeat by calendar day or day of month.
- Record when each task is done. If I know I've been good and rehearsed more days than not lately, I might want to do something else more. (Or, more likely, if I know I've skipped rehearsing more often than not...)
- Edit date done and tickler date. Most of the time I update the list every few hours, so that should be easy, but often enough it sits a few days.
- Print out. Nothing fancy, just a text file. All tasks, or just dotted tasks. Let us decide which fields to include. If tags aren't a formal part of the program, use the search function. "Print all tasks with the word 'errand' ".
- Long notes.
Hope this helps.
- Search feature so I can easily find entries in a long list. This is useful if I want to work on something that isn't dotted, and if I want to check whether I've already added it. (One task got added four times. It was important and obviously sucking up brain power, but I couldn't actually do it for several days.)
- Repeat tasks at intervals. When I mop the floor, set it to go back on the list in a week. Also repeat by calendar day or day of month.
- Record when each task is done. If I know I've been good and rehearsed more days than not lately, I might want to do something else more. (Or, more likely, if I know I've skipped rehearsing more often than not...)
- Edit date done and tickler date. Most of the time I update the list every few hours, so that should be easy, but often enough it sits a few days.
- Print out. Nothing fancy, just a text file. All tasks, or just dotted tasks. Let us decide which fields to include. If tags aren't a formal part of the program, use the search function. "Print all tasks with the word 'errand' ".
- Long notes.
Hope this helps.
April 15, 2012 at 1:37 |
Cricket
Cricket
For me, the most important thing is that it must be -easy- frictionless to enter a new task.
Next is that it must be easy to see the current task chain at any time.
Third is clean presentation of the open task list for review.
Whatever else you can do must not compromise those three essentials.
Useful features would include:
- access from a portable device
- a clean list formatted for A4 folded twice across and once down (finally A7, with the first unfold giving you a long list the width of a portrait A7 page) (others may have different preferred formats), showing the current chain on the "front" A7 page)
- creation of new tasks by right clicking text or documents, keeping the text or documents as supporting detail
- reports and statistics
It will take a lot to move me off Outlook tasks (in particular, the integration with my email workflow...).
Next is that it must be easy to see the current task chain at any time.
Third is clean presentation of the open task list for review.
Whatever else you can do must not compromise those three essentials.
Useful features would include:
- access from a portable device
- a clean list formatted for A4 folded twice across and once down (finally A7, with the first unfold giving you a long list the width of a portrait A7 page) (others may have different preferred formats), showing the current chain on the "front" A7 page)
- creation of new tasks by right clicking text or documents, keeping the text or documents as supporting detail
- reports and statistics
It will take a lot to move me off Outlook tasks (in particular, the integration with my email workflow...).
April 15, 2012 at 15:53 |
Will
Will
Cricket,
<<Search feature so I can easily find entries in a long list. This is useful if I want to work on something that isn't dotted, and if I want to check whether I've already added it. (One task got added four times. It was important and obviously sucking up brain power, but I couldn't actually do it for several days.)>>
A colleague of mine had this strategy for keeping our lab stocked with tools and supplies: if I cannot get hold of a tool (screwdriver) when I need it, buy another one. Eventually we will have enough on hand that there will always be one available / in view / within reach. That worked better than proselytizing to those who didn't naturally put things in predictable places! And it was easier than conducting an analysis of how many tools were actually needed and where they should optimally be placed. (Does *every* bench need an oscilloscope?)
The application to FV (or AF/SF): if you think of something to do and are not sure it's on the list, write it again. Eventually you will see it sufficiently often to know it is taken care of, without having to whip yourself into achieving a given rate of page turns or ladder constructions.
That being said, if I used an electronic version, the main reasons would be to gain a search function and the ability to annotate without breaking the flow of scanning my list. Search would be not so much for avoiding duplicate entries as for general maintenance or looking up reference info. Especially once I've entered annotations, I'd want to search them for a phone number or invoice date or who volunteered to do task X at the meeting.
<<Search feature so I can easily find entries in a long list. This is useful if I want to work on something that isn't dotted, and if I want to check whether I've already added it. (One task got added four times. It was important and obviously sucking up brain power, but I couldn't actually do it for several days.)>>
A colleague of mine had this strategy for keeping our lab stocked with tools and supplies: if I cannot get hold of a tool (screwdriver) when I need it, buy another one. Eventually we will have enough on hand that there will always be one available / in view / within reach. That worked better than proselytizing to those who didn't naturally put things in predictable places! And it was easier than conducting an analysis of how many tools were actually needed and where they should optimally be placed. (Does *every* bench need an oscilloscope?)
The application to FV (or AF/SF): if you think of something to do and are not sure it's on the list, write it again. Eventually you will see it sufficiently often to know it is taken care of, without having to whip yourself into achieving a given rate of page turns or ladder constructions.
That being said, if I used an electronic version, the main reasons would be to gain a search function and the ability to annotate without breaking the flow of scanning my list. Search would be not so much for avoiding duplicate entries as for general maintenance or looking up reference info. Especially once I've entered annotations, I'd want to search them for a phone number or invoice date or who volunteered to do task X at the meeting.
April 15, 2012 at 17:16 |
Bernie
Bernie
Bernie, if my father bought a new tape measure every time he lost his when building the cottage, he'd have an entire room of them! Mom's is oversize and bright pink, so she can find it even after Dad borrows it. There's a middle ground. I keep a pen and pad everywhere I might want to take notes -- by the calendar, fridge, desk, bedside table and purse, but balk at buying a new batch of pens every month because the kids lose them.
As for oscilloscopes, those are expensive and heavy. They break if dropped while moving. The users are expensive -- the time spent waiting for one to be free, or moving it, or re-adjusting it, or finding the high-voltage probe that didn't get moved with it can rapidly add up. So, yes, one per tech or bench or project might be appropriate.
As for oscilloscopes, those are expensive and heavy. They break if dropped while moving. The users are expensive -- the time spent waiting for one to be free, or moving it, or re-adjusting it, or finding the high-voltage probe that didn't get moved with it can rapidly add up. So, yes, one per tech or bench or project might be appropriate.
April 15, 2012 at 20:17 |
Cricket
Cricket
I love your BlancList implementation of FV, Steve. My only complaint at this point is that it's tied to a web browser. A native app is the only way I'd ever consider leaving my current setup using Clear.
Also, I have many "workflows" that I make use of once per week. I have an items in the FV list referencing these workflows (e.g. "Sunday morning workflow," "Podcast workflow," etc.). When that task comes to the front I leave the FV list and go to the workflow list to begin knocking it out. This keeps clutter down in the FV list so I'm not seeing the individual tasks contained within the workflows which don't really make sense to "dot."
I suppose such a thing can be achieve in the notes section of any given task sufficiently, however.
Also, I have many "workflows" that I make use of once per week. I have an items in the FV list referencing these workflows (e.g. "Sunday morning workflow," "Podcast workflow," etc.). When that task comes to the front I leave the FV list and go to the workflow list to begin knocking it out. This keeps clutter down in the FV list so I'm not seeing the individual tasks contained within the workflows which don't really make sense to "dot."
I suppose such a thing can be achieve in the notes section of any given task sufficiently, however.
April 16, 2012 at 5:19 |
Zack Allen
Zack Allen
Wow, great feedback, I'm gonna process all of that, and get back with a response. In a lot of cases it's going to be, "we're working on that" or "that's added to my list".
I guess the main thrust I was after, was should the app 'police' the user into following the system, or just provide the features that support it. For example @sabre23t's point (b) about the other system being unguided. Is that good with FV, or would something that only let you work the system as prescribed be a better solution (as much as we may not 'like' it) ?
I guess the main thrust I was after, was should the app 'police' the user into following the system, or just provide the features that support it. For example @sabre23t's point (b) about the other system being unguided. Is that good with FV, or would something that only let you work the system as prescribed be a better solution (as much as we may not 'like' it) ?
April 16, 2012 at 10:09 |
Steve from Blanc
Steve from Blanc
@Zack - Just as a question, if the webapp worked offline once cached, and auto-synced with the server once you reconnected, would that make you switch from Clear?
April 16, 2012 at 20:02 |
Steve from Blanc
Steve from Blanc
It's a good solution, but not good enough for me (I pay for software I like, btw). Using a webapp means losing precious screen real estate to the browser UI, not to mention the necessary header space for login, etc.
Clear makes full use of the available screen by hiding menus and making input quick and intuitive without needing an "add" button.
Clear makes full use of the available screen by hiding menus and making input quick and intuitive without needing an "add" button.
April 16, 2012 at 20:11 |
Zack Allen
Zack Allen
@Zack, coolio, I was just curious, as it's something we have in the pipeline. Clear is great I think it's really innovative. I was just interested in where you're at. You can save the web app to the home-screen to save a fair bit of real estate, but not as much as clear.
We may not need to go the pay-for route, purely because the web-app/hosting is being provided by work. All Blanc employees are using Final Version, so we've build it for ourselves and support it too for that purpose, but once you've built an app for 3 people, hundreds is fairly easy. :) If we ever get to thousands, we'd maybe do something, but so far we're not really noticing any costs.
We may not need to go the pay-for route, purely because the web-app/hosting is being provided by work. All Blanc employees are using Final Version, so we've build it for ourselves and support it too for that purpose, but once you've built an app for 3 people, hundreds is fairly easy. :) If we ever get to thousands, we'd maybe do something, but so far we're not really noticing any costs.
April 16, 2012 at 20:16 |
Steve from Blanc
Steve from Blanc
Holy poop, dude! I just saved it to the home screen and.... I had no idea you could do this. I knew you could save bookmarks to the home screen, but I didn't realize it would do away with Safari's UI for webapps. Too cool!
It does take a bit to load every time I pop the list open, however. Even so, that takes care of a massive bit of my critique.
It does take a bit to load every time I pop the list open, however. Even so, that takes care of a massive bit of my critique.
April 16, 2012 at 20:24 |
Zack Allen
Zack Allen
Put BlancList on your Mac desktop:
1. Login to BlancList in your preferred web browser.
2. Launch Automator and create a new application.
3. Drag "Get Specific URLs" to the workflow and paste in the URL from BlancList.
4. Drag "Website Popup" into the workflow. Give it a size and user agent (setting this both to iPhone works great).
5. Save it and done. Launch your new app!
1. Login to BlancList in your preferred web browser.
2. Launch Automator and create a new application.
3. Drag "Get Specific URLs" to the workflow and paste in the URL from BlancList.
4. Drag "Website Popup" into the workflow. Give it a size and user agent (setting this both to iPhone works great).
5. Save it and done. Launch your new app!
April 17, 2012 at 3:57 |
Zack Allen
Zack Allen
A better alternative to use with BlancList: http://fluidapp.com/
It's free, although the $4.99 version could allow us to add number of tasks in the chain to show as a badge in your dock!
The best URL to use is http://www.blanclist.com/app/ if you're logged in you'll get the list, if not the login dialog.
Once we have offline sync in-place, we'll put up a how-to to get this running.
It's free, although the $4.99 version could allow us to add number of tasks in the chain to show as a badge in your dock!
The best URL to use is http://www.blanclist.com/app/ if you're logged in you'll get the list, if not the login dialog.
Once we have offline sync in-place, we'll put up a how-to to get this running.
April 17, 2012 at 12:21 |
Steve from Blanc
Steve from Blanc
Steve,
A small, specific feature request. Can we have an option to preselect a task when we add it, and have it appear as the next in the chain after the current one?
A small, specific feature request. Can we have an option to preselect a task when we add it, and have it appear as the next in the chain after the current one?
April 18, 2012 at 12:11 |
Will
Will
Steve from Blanc:
When switching to the "Done" view, don't loose the pre-selection and present a "blank" list when I return to "Active".
When switching to the "Done" view, don't loose the pre-selection and present a "blank" list when I return to "Active".
April 18, 2012 at 16:51 |
Hugo Ferreira
Hugo Ferreira
Steve from Blanc:
An easy and direct way to provide feedback from within the tool itself, for quick bug reporting or feature request when we're actually using the tool (e.g. http://charmhq.com, http://uservoice.com, etc).
:)
An easy and direct way to provide feedback from within the tool itself, for quick bug reporting or feature request when we're actually using the tool (e.g. http://charmhq.com, http://uservoice.com, etc).
:)
April 18, 2012 at 16:52 |
Hugo Ferreira
Hugo Ferreira
Hugo,
BlancList top bar have the "Support" menu, that allows you to reply directly to messages from BlancList's Stephen (or whoever else read that message queue). I think that's what you're asking for.
I've just feedback this request for users with more than 150+ tasks and short discretionary times ...
* Can we have the last pre-selected task staying on the screen, even when it would have scrolled off to the top?
* Alternatively, can we just display the last pre-selected task either at the top bar or the bottom bar?
BlancList top bar have the "Support" menu, that allows you to reply directly to messages from BlancList's Stephen (or whoever else read that message queue). I think that's what you're asking for.
I've just feedback this request for users with more than 150+ tasks and short discretionary times ...
* Can we have the last pre-selected task staying on the screen, even when it would have scrolled off to the top?
* Alternatively, can we just display the last pre-selected task either at the top bar or the bottom bar?
April 19, 2012 at 8:22 |
sabre23t
sabre23t
sabre23t,
Thank you, I didn't see the "support" link… the link itself is taking a few seconds to appear, using old Firefox install, so I guess I just didn't wait enough time or paid enough attention to spot it.
Thank you, I didn't see the "support" link… the link itself is taking a few seconds to appear, using old Firefox install, so I guess I just didn't wait enough time or paid enough attention to spot it.
April 19, 2012 at 12:09 |
Hugo Ferreira
Hugo Ferreira
Request -- give me the option to create a Work list and a Home list.
Request -- ditto printing out or exporting as a list, ditto offline option (I use Freedom on my MacBook to shut down my surfing time when I need to focus)
Request -- is there a Clear All selections option or has that already been requested? For when I need to shake the etch-a-sketch and start over.
I'm going to play with using Blanclist as my Home list, using Fluid. I use a paper-based list at work and it's great; but I don't have the same discipline for my Home list.
My current home/personal list is cobbled together with a Simplenote/nvAlt combo. At home, I can edit and work the list as a text file within nvAlt, but at work (on my locked down Windows workstation) I can add to the list as I think of things via Simplenote. The syncing works great. This was helpful recently when we had such flakey broadband that I often couldn't get out to the web; nvAlt provided me a way to work the list even when internet connection was unavailable.
meb
Request -- ditto printing out or exporting as a list, ditto offline option (I use Freedom on my MacBook to shut down my surfing time when I need to focus)
Request -- is there a Clear All selections option or has that already been requested? For when I need to shake the etch-a-sketch and start over.
I'm going to play with using Blanclist as my Home list, using Fluid. I use a paper-based list at work and it's great; but I don't have the same discipline for my Home list.
My current home/personal list is cobbled together with a Simplenote/nvAlt combo. At home, I can edit and work the list as a text file within nvAlt, but at work (on my locked down Windows workstation) I can add to the list as I think of things via Simplenote. The syncing works great. This was helpful recently when we had such flakey broadband that I often couldn't get out to the web; nvAlt provided me a way to work the list even when internet connection was unavailable.
meb
April 19, 2012 at 19:54 |
Mike Brown
Mike Brown
Hugo, Sabre23t, Steve from Blanc
An interesting feature: the "support" link doesn't show when I open BlancList as an application. If I follow the "Blanc" link and then go back to the application, the support link appears (but I lose my current ladder).
An interesting feature: the "support" link doesn't show when I open BlancList as an application. If I follow the "Blanc" link and then go back to the application, the support link appears (but I lose my current ladder).
April 20, 2012 at 9:30 |
Will
Will
We're doing well with BlancList development, getting loads of positive and constructive feedback. One of the things that suprised me was how many requests we've had for things that I might not think as being pure FV. Whilst a web app isn't ever really going to work the same as paper, an approach that makes the best of the advantages of a computerised system can be beneficial. Sometimes however, it can get in the way of the simplicity a pen and paper gives.
For example, Stats on performance are difficult on paper, but easy electronically. This raised the question which things should be implemented, possibly to enforce or guide the use of the system, and which things shouldn't be.
Tags is a good example we've pondered on. Tags in themselves are bad (I can see that from comments Mark has made), but with paper, people are keeping a work/home FV list in separate notebooks. Isn't that almost tags?
I'd love to hear some thoughts, as now we've just finished what we think is the core requirement for an electronic FV (http://www.blanclist.com/) we've got a long list of suggestions we need to work through.
Help! :D
~Steve