FV and FVP Forum > FVP applied to house chores
I simply have "clean house" as a task, and then choose whatever to clean.
May 28, 2015 at 14:23 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
I don't have a problem with routine chores, but I have enormous difficulty with special household projects, like cleaning out a bookcase. I will cheerfully do all kinds of miserable routine chores, very slowly and thoroughly, in order to avoid doing the more complicated stuff that requires handling a lot of different items and deciding what to do with them/where to put them. I'm still looking for a solution.
May 28, 2015 at 16:45 |
JulieBulie
JulieBulie
JulieBulie, you might want to declare the bookshelf a backlog (as per the book "DIT"). Then just chip away at the backlog, step by step.
May 28, 2015 at 18:54 |
Christopher
Christopher
Just for clarification: My idea was not how to focus on house chores, but to show that we can use FVP principle with various activities which starts with visual "clues" (clearing office table, procesing files, tidying garage, answering emails, calling to customers from CRM...) - especially when we feel some resistance - without necessity to add all these subtasks to the list first. Which of course does not preclude us from adding the task/project itself (clear office table, process files) into tasklist.
May 28, 2015 at 19:05 |
Daneb
Daneb
Julie, have you tried "little and often"? Go to that bookcase, the first shelf, first book, and decide about that one. Just do the simple decision: stay or go. If you don't know, find a book you do know. If it's Go, pull it out into a pile to toss or relocate. Do only as many books as you want and stop any time you want. You can come back to it later.
You could even FV it: pull book 1 half way, and if you don't know, search for a book you have a better idea on, go through the whole case and act on the last book selected.
You could even FV it: pull book 1 half way, and if you don't know, search for a book you have a better idea on, go through the whole case and act on the last book selected.
May 28, 2015 at 22:26 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
JulieBulie,
For any sort of clear-out job that amounts to deciding what to do with a large pile of stuff, I recommend a technique that Mark calls "halving" – I'm too lazy to look now, but you can probably search this site to find a good description.
[ http://markforster.squarespace.com/forum/post/2379552#post2382689 and following posts - MF ]
The essential idea is to go through the whole pile answering the same Yes/No question about each item. I recommend completing at least one 'pass' through everything without stopping for a break. Later passes go more quickly.
Good luck with your bookcase!
For any sort of clear-out job that amounts to deciding what to do with a large pile of stuff, I recommend a technique that Mark calls "halving" – I'm too lazy to look now, but you can probably search this site to find a good description.
[ http://markforster.squarespace.com/forum/post/2379552#post2382689 and following posts - MF ]
The essential idea is to go through the whole pile answering the same Yes/No question about each item. I recommend completing at least one 'pass' through everything without stopping for a break. Later passes go more quickly.
Good luck with your bookcase!
May 28, 2015 at 23:33 |
ubi
ubi
Wow, thanks for the advice! I think I've come up with a few more strategies that might help me.
Daneb, I'm so sorry I misunderstood your original post, and I'm sorry for hijacking your thread. My only point was that if I don't stick with a written list that reminds me of the important, helpful things that I resist doing, I'll just continue making up undocumented subtasks on the fly as a tactic to delay the main event. That means the laundry will get done (or overdone), but the new plants won't get repotted. Or I'll set up the most elaborate email filter ever devised, but never quite get around to replying to an unhappy manager.
I've been doing well with AF1, but some patterns are emerging that I need to combat. I have avoided FVP because I suspect that I'll put too many frivolous items (which suddenly seem very urgent and important and appealing) on the end of my list. But there are some other systems in between (like AF4, and maybe SuperFocus) that might curb that tendency.
But that's my problem, and it has nothing to do with Daneb's observation, which seems to be pretty much the opposite phenomenon. Daneb, are you saying that you can intuitively and spontaneous choose subtasks that will reduce your resistance for the main task you intend to do, instead of distracting you and leading you away from it? I am envious!
Daneb, I'm so sorry I misunderstood your original post, and I'm sorry for hijacking your thread. My only point was that if I don't stick with a written list that reminds me of the important, helpful things that I resist doing, I'll just continue making up undocumented subtasks on the fly as a tactic to delay the main event. That means the laundry will get done (or overdone), but the new plants won't get repotted. Or I'll set up the most elaborate email filter ever devised, but never quite get around to replying to an unhappy manager.
I've been doing well with AF1, but some patterns are emerging that I need to combat. I have avoided FVP because I suspect that I'll put too many frivolous items (which suddenly seem very urgent and important and appealing) on the end of my list. But there are some other systems in between (like AF4, and maybe SuperFocus) that might curb that tendency.
But that's my problem, and it has nothing to do with Daneb's observation, which seems to be pretty much the opposite phenomenon. Daneb, are you saying that you can intuitively and spontaneous choose subtasks that will reduce your resistance for the main task you intend to do, instead of distracting you and leading you away from it? I am envious!
May 29, 2015 at 0:22 |
JulieBulie
JulieBulie
@Daneb:
That is the reason I tried using Evernote, because you can easily add pictures as tasks in your list. So instead of typing "Clean kitchen" I can just take a pic of my dirty kitchen using my celphone and attach it to a note in my Evernote.
However, I found that it is actually easier to just use pen and notebook so I abandoned it.
@JulieBulie:
"I have avoided FVP because I suspect that I'll put too many frivolous items (which suddenly seem very urgent and important and appealing) on the end of my list."
All I have to say is give FVP a chance. That is what exactly I was thinking when I started to use FVP, especially since I was already using a system that focused on doing tasks that I considered to be important and difficult. And I have to say, I was right for the first couple of days: I keep on adding easy, unimportant tasks at the end and I was skipping the more important tasks. But over the next couple of days I started to "get" how FVP works, and I found that FVP to be a great way of tackling even the important and hard tasks.
I by the way am an INTP, and thus I do know that I need to experience a system before I can judge it even though I may have theoretical misgivings about it.
That is the reason I tried using Evernote, because you can easily add pictures as tasks in your list. So instead of typing "Clean kitchen" I can just take a pic of my dirty kitchen using my celphone and attach it to a note in my Evernote.
However, I found that it is actually easier to just use pen and notebook so I abandoned it.
@JulieBulie:
"I have avoided FVP because I suspect that I'll put too many frivolous items (which suddenly seem very urgent and important and appealing) on the end of my list."
All I have to say is give FVP a chance. That is what exactly I was thinking when I started to use FVP, especially since I was already using a system that focused on doing tasks that I considered to be important and difficult. And I have to say, I was right for the first couple of days: I keep on adding easy, unimportant tasks at the end and I was skipping the more important tasks. But over the next couple of days I started to "get" how FVP works, and I found that FVP to be a great way of tackling even the important and hard tasks.
I by the way am an INTP, and thus I do know that I need to experience a system before I can judge it even though I may have theoretical misgivings about it.
May 29, 2015 at 4:28 |
nuntym
nuntym
JulieBulie:
Your resistance is down to decision fatigue. You avoid projects that involve large amounts of tedious little decisions in a large amount of time—knowing you'll be sucked into the void of doing the whole thing once you start and many of the decisions will involve the possibility of future regret ("Oh, no! I tossed out that thing and now I need it. I KNEW this would happen!").
I agree with Alan's advice:
"Go to that bookcase...first shelf, first book, and decide about that one. Just do the simple decision: stay or go..."
So, keep or donate. A binary decision.
Get two boxes and label one "Keep" and the other "Donate". Let a donation center trash what they can't use. Eliminate the dilemma of "should I really trash this, maybe someone can use it?" by donating everything you're not keeping. Each item goes in one of these boxes. Don't leave any keepers on the shelf—everything's coming down.
After that ONE book, move on to something else. This way you'll feel naturally pulled back next time and your mind will know you will keep your promise of not being sucked into the project for hours making tedious little decisions. Let your mind naturally become accustomed to doing a little bit of work at a time and then moving on. You will gradually ease into doing more and more with less resistance.
A simple logic-tree you can use to assist you is to ask three questions regarding each item:
1. Is it a treasure?
2. Does it make me smile?
3. Do I use it now or every year?
Yes to ANY question = Keep
No to EVERY question = Donate
AFTER the project is complete, grab another box and label it "Sell". Now you may pick out any obviously profitable items from the "Donate" box and place them in the "Sell" box.
All that's left to do is:
1. Restock your shelf from the "Keep" box
2. Drop off the "Donate" box at any donation site
3. List the "Sell" box items on Craigslist or eBay (if they don't sell within 30 days you donate them)
Your resistance is down to decision fatigue. You avoid projects that involve large amounts of tedious little decisions in a large amount of time—knowing you'll be sucked into the void of doing the whole thing once you start and many of the decisions will involve the possibility of future regret ("Oh, no! I tossed out that thing and now I need it. I KNEW this would happen!").
I agree with Alan's advice:
"Go to that bookcase...first shelf, first book, and decide about that one. Just do the simple decision: stay or go..."
So, keep or donate. A binary decision.
Get two boxes and label one "Keep" and the other "Donate". Let a donation center trash what they can't use. Eliminate the dilemma of "should I really trash this, maybe someone can use it?" by donating everything you're not keeping. Each item goes in one of these boxes. Don't leave any keepers on the shelf—everything's coming down.
After that ONE book, move on to something else. This way you'll feel naturally pulled back next time and your mind will know you will keep your promise of not being sucked into the project for hours making tedious little decisions. Let your mind naturally become accustomed to doing a little bit of work at a time and then moving on. You will gradually ease into doing more and more with less resistance.
A simple logic-tree you can use to assist you is to ask three questions regarding each item:
1. Is it a treasure?
2. Does it make me smile?
3. Do I use it now or every year?
Yes to ANY question = Keep
No to EVERY question = Donate
AFTER the project is complete, grab another box and label it "Sell". Now you may pick out any obviously profitable items from the "Donate" box and place them in the "Sell" box.
All that's left to do is:
1. Restock your shelf from the "Keep" box
2. Drop off the "Donate" box at any donation site
3. List the "Sell" box items on Craigslist or eBay (if they don't sell within 30 days you donate them)
May 29, 2015 at 5:19 |
Michael B.
Michael B.
@JulieBulie
> I don't have a problem with routine chores, but I have enormous difficulty with special household projects, like cleaning out a bookcase. I will cheerfully do all kinds of miserable routine chores, very slowly and thoroughly, in order to avoid doing the more complicated stuff ...
That's me right there - except that I'm happy to do the routine stuff quickly and superficially.
> I don't have a problem with routine chores, but I have enormous difficulty with special household projects, like cleaning out a bookcase. I will cheerfully do all kinds of miserable routine chores, very slowly and thoroughly, in order to avoid doing the more complicated stuff ...
That's me right there - except that I'm happy to do the routine stuff quickly and superficially.
May 29, 2015 at 10:56 |
Chris Cooper
Chris Cooper
Michael - thanks for the advice. The issue is a little more complicated than I've described, but I will start a new thread to explain (probably not today) because it's tied into a larger decision-making issue that is related to my time management problems - which are alleviated by AF specifically.
May 29, 2015 at 22:43 |
JulieBulie
JulieBulie
@JulieBulie
>>My only point was that if I don't stick with a written list that reminds me of the important, helpful things that I resist doing, I'll just continue making up undocumented subtasks on the fly as a tactic to delay the main event.<<
I did not mean this method to be substitute for FVP list, just a helpful alteration for handling some particular tasks/projects from your FVP list (tasks with subtasks which have the right attributes of being somehow visual in your environment - visible on your computer screen, on your desk, in your house...)
How I did it (with house chores) was not that I immediatelly started with anything what I saw that needs doing. I just went through my flat looking around. I noticed that something needs to be done. And I asked myself: What I want to do more than this? Again, going around my flat for some time and looking for other visual clues. When I did not have any new ideas after reasonable time, I started to do my last idea. Than I repeated with previous one (looking for other visual clues) like in FVP etc. What was especially relaxing for me, were these times when I just scanned my environment instead of "boring" written list.
>>My only point was that if I don't stick with a written list that reminds me of the important, helpful things that I resist doing, I'll just continue making up undocumented subtasks on the fly as a tactic to delay the main event.<<
I did not mean this method to be substitute for FVP list, just a helpful alteration for handling some particular tasks/projects from your FVP list (tasks with subtasks which have the right attributes of being somehow visual in your environment - visible on your computer screen, on your desk, in your house...)
How I did it (with house chores) was not that I immediatelly started with anything what I saw that needs doing. I just went through my flat looking around. I noticed that something needs to be done. And I asked myself: What I want to do more than this? Again, going around my flat for some time and looking for other visual clues. When I did not have any new ideas after reasonable time, I started to do my last idea. Than I repeated with previous one (looking for other visual clues) like in FVP etc. What was especially relaxing for me, were these times when I just scanned my environment instead of "boring" written list.
May 31, 2015 at 10:05 |
Daneb
Daneb
Daneb,
I agree with the relaxing feeling that comes from using your environment rather than a "boring" list for processing physical tasks. I've been using a running mental SMEMA list for processing small scale physical tasks. I look around and think "What are the next 3 things I want to do?" And of course, I put them in the order in which I want to do them. Then I do 2, and add 2, and do 2 and add 2, and do 2... I do however, allow myself the opportunity to re-order the list on a whim. I find the greatest benefit is twofold.
First, in the beginning I tend to break down tasks to the "Get the Folder Out" level. (eg: Instead of the first task on my Mental SMEMA list being "Laundry", my first 3 M-SMEMA tasks are "Get empty basket, Sort dirty laundry into loads, and Put a load of towels into the washer.") This smaller scale of tasks reduces resistance, and increases the Tempo - the frequency with which I must come up with new M-SMEMA tasks. I find this lower resistance and higher Tempo has the effect of catapulting me into the tasks at hand.
Second, after a few rounds on this higher Tempo, I find that I naturally begin to come up with higher scale tasks (eg: "Start next laundry load" instead of the above breakdown.) This results in more of a flow or rhythm. This rhythm lasts maybe 2 M-SMEMA rounds before I quite unconsciously drop the M-SMEMA exercise and just flow from one task to the next without the conscious deciding, ordering, and memorizing of M-SMEMA. (I've heard it called a "Flow State" or "Surge State.")
I find it so effective, that I now put all my routine house chores under the heading of "M-SMEMA house chores" on my main list. I say "main list" because when I began the M-SMEMA thing, I think I was using DIT, then I experimented with AF4, and FV, returned to DIT, and now I'm using FVP. But you get the point. "M-SMEMA house chores" gets its time in the sun along with other, less routine projects via whatever Mark Forster method I'm currently using.
I agree with the relaxing feeling that comes from using your environment rather than a "boring" list for processing physical tasks. I've been using a running mental SMEMA list for processing small scale physical tasks. I look around and think "What are the next 3 things I want to do?" And of course, I put them in the order in which I want to do them. Then I do 2, and add 2, and do 2 and add 2, and do 2... I do however, allow myself the opportunity to re-order the list on a whim. I find the greatest benefit is twofold.
First, in the beginning I tend to break down tasks to the "Get the Folder Out" level. (eg: Instead of the first task on my Mental SMEMA list being "Laundry", my first 3 M-SMEMA tasks are "Get empty basket, Sort dirty laundry into loads, and Put a load of towels into the washer.") This smaller scale of tasks reduces resistance, and increases the Tempo - the frequency with which I must come up with new M-SMEMA tasks. I find this lower resistance and higher Tempo has the effect of catapulting me into the tasks at hand.
Second, after a few rounds on this higher Tempo, I find that I naturally begin to come up with higher scale tasks (eg: "Start next laundry load" instead of the above breakdown.) This results in more of a flow or rhythm. This rhythm lasts maybe 2 M-SMEMA rounds before I quite unconsciously drop the M-SMEMA exercise and just flow from one task to the next without the conscious deciding, ordering, and memorizing of M-SMEMA. (I've heard it called a "Flow State" or "Surge State.")
I find it so effective, that I now put all my routine house chores under the heading of "M-SMEMA house chores" on my main list. I say "main list" because when I began the M-SMEMA thing, I think I was using DIT, then I experimented with AF4, and FV, returned to DIT, and now I'm using FVP. But you get the point. "M-SMEMA house chores" gets its time in the sun along with other, less routine projects via whatever Mark Forster method I'm currently using.
June 3, 2015 at 15:06 |
Miracle
Miracle
This is not intended to be a serious suggestion, but has anyone tried the following?
1. Set your timer going for, say, 1 minute.
2. Think of a possible next task.
3. Ask "What do I want to do more than [the task you've just thought of]?"
4. If another task comes into your mind, ask the question again.
5. Repeat step 4 until the timer goes off, then do the task you are currently thinking of.
1. Set your timer going for, say, 1 minute.
2. Think of a possible next task.
3. Ask "What do I want to do more than [the task you've just thought of]?"
4. If another task comes into your mind, ask the question again.
5. Repeat step 4 until the timer goes off, then do the task you are currently thinking of.
June 3, 2015 at 17:14 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Mark - I've haven't done that exactly, but have tried something similar: putting a limit on how many times I ask "what do I want to do more than N?"
Using Andreas' web app, I was startled how many times I would need to ask that question, if I had added several tasks to the list since doing the initial selection. (I guess I was doing those comparisons on paper, too, but didn't notice it as much until I was actually clicking through it on the app.)
Example: select three items on the list. Start working on the last selected. While working, add 3-5 new tasks to the list that happen to come to mind while working. Stop working on the selected task, re-enter it because it's not done, then compare the 2nd item to all the new items (plus the re-entered item). While working on that task, maybe add a few more tasks to the list. And so on.
Anyway, sometimes I'd really just want to stop comparing, and start doing, so I just would. This got me thinking, maybe it would be useful to make it a rule to stop after, say, 5 comparisons. This seemed like another variant on Colley's Rule. It doesn't do a perfect sort like FVP does, but perhaps it gets close enough? It's not so easy to implement in paper, though. An app would do it better. Or like you are suggesting, maybe just use a short timer.
Using Andreas' web app, I was startled how many times I would need to ask that question, if I had added several tasks to the list since doing the initial selection. (I guess I was doing those comparisons on paper, too, but didn't notice it as much until I was actually clicking through it on the app.)
Example: select three items on the list. Start working on the last selected. While working, add 3-5 new tasks to the list that happen to come to mind while working. Stop working on the selected task, re-enter it because it's not done, then compare the 2nd item to all the new items (plus the re-entered item). While working on that task, maybe add a few more tasks to the list. And so on.
Anyway, sometimes I'd really just want to stop comparing, and start doing, so I just would. This got me thinking, maybe it would be useful to make it a rule to stop after, say, 5 comparisons. This seemed like another variant on Colley's Rule. It doesn't do a perfect sort like FVP does, but perhaps it gets close enough? It's not so easy to implement in paper, though. An app would do it better. Or like you are suggesting, maybe just use a short timer.
June 3, 2015 at 18:31 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Seraphim:
Actually my intention was to show a possible way of working without a list at all - just giving one's mind the encouragement and time to come up with the best thing to do. I've no idea whether it would work or not.
Actually my intention was to show a possible way of working without a list at all - just giving one's mind the encouragement and time to come up with the best thing to do. I've no idea whether it would work or not.
June 3, 2015 at 20:30 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
I suggest it not as a system, just an interesting digression how to make chores less resistant. It can be applied also on backlog/processing inbox/clearing your desk etc.