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FV and FVP Forum > Question conundrum

Mark Forster has said in

http://markforster.squarespace.com/fv-forum/post/2528911#post2529138

that he has gone back to the original question "What do I want to do more than x?" because the questionless form of FVP actually has an implicit question of "What do I feel like doing more than x?" which is not so good.

My personal problem is that "What do I want to do more than x?" unconsciously becomes "What do I feel like doing more than x?" after a while.

Have you guys had the same problem? If so, how did you solve it?
August 5, 2015 at 13:47 | Registered Commenternuntym
I solved it with Dotting Power! I just use "stand out" but try to guide it using the ideas in Mark's blog post: http://markforster.squarespace.com/blog/2015/6/10/dotting-power.html

So far it's been pretty great. :-)
August 5, 2015 at 21:55 | Registered CommenterSeraphim
@Seraphim: *slaps forehead* Right, dotting power.

Of course several minutes after posting the OP I thought of a different way: changing the question to "What is more loving than x?"

I know that the question sounds really cheesy, but it seems to be the most balanced since the question takes into account myself and others. It assures that I will not be selfish and take care of my responsibilities, yet at the same time I would also take care of myself.
August 6, 2015 at 10:04 | Registered Commenternuntym
I was a little glad when I saw Mark has reverted to the original FVP question, as I've been thinking of doing the same. FVP Questionless has been the best TM system I've used in terms of turnover of tasks in a day, and I've never closed so many pages before.

However, I've noticed that while I am doing a high volume of tasks I'm still not getting going on some of the really *important* things I want to get moving on in my life. For me these include exercise and work on a book that I'm writing. I haven't done anything serious about the former in days and the latter in many weeks - in a way I think I've been using the smooth and addictive cycling of myriad busy tasks in FVP as means of procrastinating around the *important* ones.

I think, given the choice, I'd rather have fewer tasks done in a day so long as they are the right and meaningful ones for me. I'm going to use the original "What do I want to do more than..." question for a while to see if this works better for me in this regard. Also, in Mark's blog example of 'A Day With FVP' he stated in advance his markers against which a 'successful' day could be measured. Though I know Mark only did this for illustrative purposes, I really liked the idea of it and think I might do likewise to see if this aids my focus over the course of the day.
August 6, 2015 at 10:28 | Unregistered CommenterNeil Cumming
@Seraphim:

BTW, I was not being sarcastic with the *slap*, I really did forget about Dotting Power, and considering I did just comment about it in another recent post I feel quite stupid.

@Neil Cumming:

«Also, in Mark's blog example of 'A Day With FVP' he stated in advance his markers against which a 'successful' day could be measured. Though I know Mark only did this for illustrative purposes, I really liked the idea of it and think I might do likewise to see if this aids my focus over the course of the day.»

I did also move away from Questionless FVP because of my observed tendency of 'procrastinating around the *important*' as you put it. I also like the idea of the progress markers, but here I am placing my own markers into the question.

What I want most in this life is to be less selfish, to love my loved ones better. That is why I thought of the question "What is more loving than x?" And my hope here is that I not only would I focus more on my responsibilities and connecting more with God and my family, friends, and community, but I would also take care of myself better and improve myself, because an unhealthy, stagnating me would not be able to love others effectively.
August 6, 2015 at 15:09 | Registered Commenternuntym
Neil Cumming wrote:
<< However, I've noticed that while I am doing a high volume of tasks I'm still not getting going on some of the really *important* things I want to get moving on in my life. For me these include exercise and work on a book that I'm writing. >>

Whenever I feel I am not getting enough results in the right area, I just use the "dotting power" idea and think, "OK, time to get serious". And then, as I scan through the list, I find that different things stand out.

An ideal day for me works like this:
1. Start the day thinking "current initiative" or "get some focus work done" - and see what stands out.
2. During the chaos of the day, with meetings and interruptions and so on, just go with the flow. This seems to help me get closure on things more quickly. For example, I have a long meeting and get several action items from it. Those go on my list. Then I have a 30-minute break before my next meeting. During that time, those tasks I just wrote down are top-of-mind, so they are the things that "stand out", so I just go and finish them. This helps me keep "short accounts" -- those little one-off tasks just don't hang around as long.
3. If I have a good-sized chunk of working time, then I think, "OK, what really needs to get done" or "Let's do some more focus work" or "There are too many loose ends, let's get some of those finished" or whatever seems to be needed.
4. Towards the end of the day, I start thinking "Time to wrap up" and see what stands out.

I guess another way of saying this, is that I can stop and think, "what's the right question right now?" But then, while actually going through the list, just go with whatever stands out. This tends to get me quickly to the right focus, but without so much decision fatigue from exhaustive comparison of so many items.
August 6, 2015 at 15:30 | Registered CommenterSeraphim
Actually, in some ways, Mark's returning to using "the question" almost seems like he's found "dotting power" isn't working as well as he originally thought?

Mark, I'd be interested in your thoughts on this!
August 6, 2015 at 15:41 | Registered CommenterSeraphim
Seraphim:

I don't think "dotting power" and "the question" are mutually exclusive. However I think what I found was that dotting power was a way to compensate for the less focused "no question". Now I've reverted to "the question" I don't find I need "dotting power" so much.

It's been an interesting week because a family visit hasn't given me as much time as I normally have for discretionary time. FVP has guided me through the essentials pretty well.
August 6, 2015 at 18:53 | Registered CommenterMark Forster
I can't seem to compare items with a vague question like "want to do more" or "feel more like doing." Apparently, I have too many conflicting motivations fighting with one another to get through even a short list this way.

Naturally, I thought "standing out" would be the perfect remedy. It worked well enough in AF1 - at least at first. But "standing out" is even vaguer than "feel more like doing," and when there are only two items on a page, they can each stand out for different reasons. Then I'm comparing apples and oranges... or more likely apples and toothbrushes.

I thought the longer list in FVP would remedy the "list too short to stand out" problem. But in the, what, five days? that I've been doing FVP, "standing out" has been disappointing. Certainly it is easy to find things that stand out in a longer list, but usually my resulting selection either makes no sense, or is weak and lazy. This was a surprise to me, because I didn't have that experience with AF1. I sometimes went for the weak or lazy items in AF1 too, but not on every page. I believe that "standing out" can effortlessly identify the best choice from a brief but balanced menu (12 to 15 items for me), but gets overwhelmed and breaks down much beyond that.

So now I'm going back to an idea I've entertained on and off for a while: "standing out" based on a specific agenda, and/or comparing items based on a specific question. (Did I write about this before? It sounds familiar.)

Examples of specific questions, which make comparisons easy:

-"What's the most strenuous [or complicated]?" (because I'm feeling ambitious). This is easy because I've already identified these items: they are the ones that I've repeatedly skipped because they seemed too strenuous (or too complicated) on previous occasions.

-"What's the biggest payoff?" This was easy when I realized that my failure to act on certain low-priority tasks had caused other tasks to be blocked. Unblocking six important tasks is a good payoff for tidying my home office desk! (Er, it will be when I do it.)

-"I have to do Fearsome Task X. Which tasks will help me most with Fearsome Task X?" (Inspired by Nuntym, who once reported using a similar question.)

-"Do I have any pages that I can close out and throw away in less than an hour?" (OK, it's not a comparison... but it is a specific question!)

Examples of agenda (no need to compare items):

-"Prepare for hurricane/Christmas/unannounced audit/surprise party in my honor." I have many tasks that are intended to prepare for some event - good or bad, scheduled or not - that I want to take care of before they become crises. There are other tasks that suddenly become urgent because of an unexpected situation. I can't think of a recent example, but I know it's happened.

-"An unexpected opportunity has arisen." Similarly, if I have a chance to borrow a huge computer monitor for a couple of days, I can scan my list for tasks that would be easier to do on a bigger screen.

-"Things I can do at my sister's house."

-"Things that are helpful to others."

-"Things I can do with a busted hand."
August 6, 2015 at 21:50 | Unregistered CommenterJulieBulie
JulieBulie:

<< I can't seem to compare items with a vague question like "want to do more" or "feel more like doing." Apparently, I have too many conflicting motivations fighting with one another to get through even a short list this way. >>

That's why we have a unspecific question like "want to do more" - so that attention can be paid to all the conflicting motivations.

<< when there are only two items on a page, they can each stand out for different reasons. >>

What's wrong with that?

----------------

You have given yourself nine different possible questions. How are you going to choose which question to ask at any given time? If you have trouble choosing which task to do, what makes you think you are going to be any better at choosing which question to ask?
August 6, 2015 at 23:46 | Registered CommenterMark Forster
It's not a good idea to get hung up over what "what do I want to do more than x?" means. The question is deliberately not defined further so that you learn what you mean by "want" by answering the question and seeing the results.

If you have trouble answering this question I advise you to always answer the question with "nothing". In other words you action the tasks on your list in the order they are written down.

Allow yourself to make exceptions to this when you really want to.
August 7, 2015 at 0:05 | Registered CommenterMark Forster
@JulieBulie: <<I can't seem to compare items with a vague question like "want to do more" or "feel more like doing." Apparently, I have too many conflicting motivations fighting with one another to get through even a short list this way.>>

Exactly!

@Mark Forster: <<That's why we have a unspecific question like "want to do more" - so that attention can be paid to all the conflicting motivations.>>

I think there is a problem with that if somebody does not know what he or she wants, or if the will is only a weak voice in the marketplace of conflicting motivations. For people like me, "want to do more" is too vague to help me choose. Maybe that is why all the AF's do not work for me that well.

For the short time I have been using it, "What is more loving than x?" is working really well, probably because it reminds me of what I want to value most in my life. And like I was hoping it is balanced because it also lets me take care of myself.

I think that anybody who is having problems with the question should learn what it is that they value most or at the very least value very highly in life, and then try to incorporate that into their question for FVP. I would say that the question is balanced if it not only helps you get and do what is important in life but also takes care of yourself and your loved ones.

For example, if somebody values the saying "Work smarter, not harder" then he may probably use the question "What is smarter than x?" It would seem balanced because it will be stupid, not smart, for the person to neglect himself and his loved ones.

Another example: If somebody values money and profits he would use the question "What is more profitable than x?" It would be a waste of money of course to go to the hospital because of sickness, and divorce settlements are expensive.

Another: if somebody values health more than anything, he might use the question, "What is more healthful than x?" Health of course covers one's self, but it also covers one's own responsibilities and finances because, for one, you do need finances to take care of yourself, and two, there is such a thing as financial health, emotional health, spiritual health, professional health, etc.

<<You have given yourself nine different possible questions. How are you going to choose which question to ask at any given time? If you have trouble choosing which task to do, what makes you think you are going to be any better at choosing which question to ask? >>

Isn't that the problem with "Dotting Power" though? :)

<<If you have trouble answering this question I advise you to always answer the question with "nothing". In other words you action the tasks on your list in the order they are written down.

Allow yourself to make exceptions to this when you really want to. >>

That sounds really unappealing.
August 7, 2015 at 2:35 | Registered Commenternuntym
I find it fairly easy to choose the question or agenda beforehand, based on the unique requirements and opportunities of the moment. On vacation this week, I've been focusing mainly on things that I can work on for more than a few hours in a row; things that can be done with family; and things that can be done only in the summer. These are all special opportunities. Or, for a while on Tuesday, I re-selected for things that could be done indoors without electricity. Those were special limitations.

From there, the selection is easy. It's like applying filters to a mental spreadsheet. The list almost seems to sort itself.

If your mind can automatically apply the right filters without your having to precisely define them first, that's great. But my mind can't do it beyond a dozen or so items.

And my question/agenda/priority can't always be the same, or I'll end up picking the same kinds of tasks every time.

Of course I don't need to do every selection this way. Every selection doesn't have to be perfect. "Standing out" and "what do I want more" aren't disastrous. Even if they are, I can reselect once I've established some momentum and direction. But I'm more comfortable when I'm paying attention to whatever is special about the moment.
August 7, 2015 at 5:01 | Unregistered CommenterJulieBulie
Mark Forster wrote:
<<You have given yourself nine different possible questions. How are you going to choose which question to ask at any given time? If you have trouble choosing which task to do, what makes you think you are going to be any better at choosing which question to ask? >>

and then nuntym wrote:
<< Isn't that the problem with "Dotting Power" though? :) >>

It doesn't need to be so complicated. Most of the time, I just use "standing out" with no question and no "dotting power" considerations. But if it occurs to me that I need a particular focus, or the day is feeling aimless or something, then I will take a few moments and consider how to apply "dotting power". It really does take just a few moments, and it always surprises me how dramatically it changes what stands out.

I like this approach because it is so simple and effective, and avoids decision fatigue.
August 7, 2015 at 5:50 | Registered CommenterSeraphim
It occurs to me that maybe an effective middle ground (between "No Question" and "The Question" [of whatever variety]) would be to write your Question of choice on a sticky note, and put it on your last active page, like a bookmark. And then just go with whatever stands out.
August 7, 2015 at 5:54 | Registered CommenterSeraphim
nuntym:

<< That sounds really unappealing. >>

It's actually what you do whenever you use FVP. You do the next task unless there is one you want to do before it (for whatever reason).

You talk about choosing tasks, but that's not how FVP works. The default answer to the question "What do I want more than this?" is "Nothing". If there is nothing that stands out as being wanted more, then you go with the default. No choice is required.
August 7, 2015 at 14:27 | Registered CommenterMark Forster
Julie Bulie:

<< If your mind can automatically apply the right filters without your having to precisely define them first, that's great. But my mind can't do it beyond a dozen or so items. >>

But the whole point of FVP is that you don't have to identify that number of items. I've got 8 items dotted at the moment and that is about the highest I would ever go. Usually I have 4 or 5. Subsequent items are identified one or two at a time.

<< On vacation this week, I've been focusing mainly on things that I can work on for more than a few hours in a row; things that can be done with family; and things that can be done only in the summer. >>

If you want to do things that you can work on for more than a few hours in a row, things that can be done with family, and things that can be done only in the summer, then I don't understand why you then need another question to specify things further. Don't you already know what you want?
August 7, 2015 at 14:30 | Registered CommenterMark Forster
All:

I think we are really getting away from the point of FVP in this discussion. As I said to nuntym in my previous post to him, FVP is not about choosing tasks. If you think it is, you will get into the sort of difficulties which several people are describing, and you will also get decision fatigue. FVP is a method of getting at what you want to do at any given time without having to make continuous decisions.

I expect most of you know the following method of choosing between two alternatives when you can't get yourself to make up your mind between them. You toss a coin and the rule is that you go with the coin toss result unless you really want to change it. If you go with the coin toss result you know that you didn't want the other choice enough to change the result. If you do change the result then you have discovered what you really wanted.

FVP works just like that. The first unactioned task is the default, the equivalent of the coin toss result. You should always go with the default unless you really want to change it. If you go with the default you know you didn't want anything else enough to change it. If you do change it then you have discovered what you want.

Asking a specific question is the equivalent of making the decision without tossing the coin first. In other words you are just making a decision. And that has all the problems associated with making a decision like not knowing what you want and decision fatigue.
August 7, 2015 at 15:23 | Registered CommenterMark Forster
Mark:

I would like to clarify that when I said "my mind can't do it beyond a dozen or so items," I was not referring to the number of dotted tasks. I was referring to the length of the entire list, which is now around 65.

Also, regarding your question:

<<If you want to do things that you can work on for more than a few hours in a row, things that can be done with family, and things that can be done only in the summer, then I don't understand why you then need another question to specify things further. Don't you already know what you want?>>

I explained what I wanted. For my vacation, I want: lengthy tasks, family visits, and summer-only activities. That was my example of selecting things that "stood out" based on my agenda for the week. It was intended as a complete example. If I gave the impression that I was still looking for a question to address this, I apologize.

I want (or am required to do) a lot of other things in my life, too. But most of them can and should wait until my vacation is over. Then I'll go back to looking for tasks that fit other criteria.

Nuntym asked what we do if our mind interprets the intentionally vague question in a way that isn't helpful. My suggestion was to temporarily focus the question (or establish agenda for "stand out') to make sure it can't be misinterpreted. It sounds as though you see this as more fatiguing than "What do I want to do more than..." because you find that deciding on a question/agenda is difficult. If so, then you don't need to do it. Sometimes I can't make that decision either, and then I don't.

But my day feels more meaningful when I'm able to establish a "mission." So if I wake up one morning wanting to work on the basement, and there's no compelling reason not to, the decision is already made. I dot the basement tasks and get to them. This is easy and not fatiguing. It would be more fatiguing to look through my list with a vague feeling that I'd like to work in the basement, but maybe I should do paperwork instead, or go to the store, or rearrange the furniture.

Admittedly, what I'm describing does not engage the "sorting" part of the FVP algorithm right away. It did not occur to me that this might be a contentious or confusing, but now I see that I overlooked it entirely.

I start by dotting the tasks that fit my criteria so that I can tune out the vast majority of distracting tasks that didn't make the cut. Only then do I use the algorithm (more dots) to "sort" the dotted tasks, if they need sorting. Fortunately, within this better-focused group of tasks, tasks are more apt to "stand out" for the right reasons.
August 7, 2015 at 19:18 | Unregistered CommenterJulieBulie
@Mark Forster:

I think I see what you're saying now: it is not the question that is really important but the "default" task and how much I want to do it compared to the other tasks following it.

The thing about Questionless FVP is that this comparison with the default task is not encouraged anymore, as was said in

http://markforster.squarespace.com/fv-forum/post/2511021#post2511030

and thus it works more like AF instead of FV. Therefore, in Questionless FVP, what is happening is that, although the initial task chain making had the implicit question "What do I want to do more than x?" or even "What do I feel like doing more than x?", the subsequent implicit question becomes "What do I feel like doing now?" because that comparative function of FV is being neglected.

Thinking about it more, I think I am also getting what you are saying that "What do I feel like doing more than x?" is not as valid a question as "What do I want more than x?"

If I use the default question "What do I want more than x?" in making a task chain, I want <<all>> of the tasks in that chain to be done but in varying degrees, therefore I do not want to add any task in that chain that would undermine the tasks in that chain.

On the other hand, if I had used the question "What do I feel like doing more than x?" in making the task chain, it is like saying there are tasks in the chain I would <<rather>> do than others, therefore it does not matter so much that some tasks in the chain undermine others.

Finally, adding more criteria to the "What do I want to do more than x?" question is adding more decisive power than necessary for FVP to work. Thus doing this can cause decision fatigue.

Am I correct, Mark?
August 8, 2015 at 0:54 | Registered Commenternuntym
nuntym:

Yes, you've got it!
August 8, 2015 at 11:17 | Registered CommenterMark Forster
Interesting discussion. I've been meaning to write in because I have actually gone back to the random method recently because I was having difficulty with FVP. I just felt too much resistance to the whole list, like FV before it. I think it was "decision fatigue", which meant I was doing it wrong. However, once I started back with the random method, I felt an immediate release because random is so effective against procrastination. But here's the interesting thing: every so often, even when I used the random method before, there were some pressing things I had to get done before I started randomizing my list. My temptation had been to wait until it comes up randomly, but then why not just do it? This, I think, is FVP. So now... I just work randomly through the list. Sometimes, but rarely, there's something I really need to get to first, before the randomly selected task. I'll dot it and work on it, then go back to the random task. I don't even prescan the list. I suppose I could go full on FVP after picking a random task, but I find a kind of mind-numbing resistance (procrastination) creeping in. So I reverse it. Straight random is my default method, unless I really need to work on a different task. So my formula is this: Random task, x, unless there is something I absolutely have to work on before x. I don't even ask the question - if nothing stands out by itself, its straight random.
August 8, 2015 at 14:40 | Unregistered CommenterPaul MacNeil
@Mark Forster:
Well that makes making this thread worth it then!

@Paul MacNeil:

I di not see anything wrong with staying with your old system. In fact, I remember many of us being impressed with your system when you described it, especially since it was proven to work well in your profession.

If I remember right also, I think Mark Forster noted that the only advantage of FVP over your system is that FVP does not need any randomizing equipment.
August 10, 2015 at 4:22 | Registered Commenternuntym
It just occurred to me, with the Random method, it might work simply to choose an arbitrary number, say one-third your page size, instead of generating a new random number all the time. You'd still get a great deal of randomness just from the way tasks are entered on the list.

In other words, just count down 7 tasks or 17 tasks or whatever number you like, so long as it's the same number all the time. But otherwise follow the Randomizer rules, with all the sliding and so on.

This would eliminate the need for equipment. :-)
August 10, 2015 at 6:36 | Registered CommenterSeraphim
@seraphim

Yes I have done that myself on a few occasions e.g, when I dont have an internet connection. On these occasions I just used 20 as my number.

However since then I created a massive list of numbers from random.org and copied it into evernote. I then use this if I have no internet connection. I have one number per line and I just delete them one at a time as I go.
August 10, 2015 at 9:58 | Unregistered Commenterjoe
The only difference between my old system and the way I work it now is that now there has to be a really good reason before I'll do something different than the random task, especially if I randomly hit on a task that I'm resisting. "Standing out" or "wanting to do something more than x" are too soft for me. More like "uh oh. I better get this done first." I might add, as I had mentioned before, that the random method feels very liberating. With no resistance, I don't worry about what I'm going to do next any more. Hard to explain, but if anyone reaches that point, whatever system they're using, its golden. I would say that reaching that state of liberation is probably the goal of time management for me. When I'm in that state, productivity takes care of itself.
August 10, 2015 at 22:21 | Unregistered CommenterPaul MacNeil