FV and FVP Forum > Is the advice in "Secrets of Productive People" still valid?
Philip:
I actually re-read "Secrets" regularly myself, and each time I am surprised by getting new insights from it. I'm just about to start Chapter 34 on Time Boxing - a subject I've hardly considered in the last year or so. So yes, I regard it as being very much still valid.
I didn't want to make it another book about time management, so I picked a very simple system for the one chapter on that subject. The 5-2 system is very powerful, and has very little overhead. It's best when used in a fairly rigid office environment. As a retired person with very little external pressure I find it too concentrated for the relaxed life I wish to live. But I do go back to it occasionally and amaze myself by how much work I can do in a single day using it.
Finding the best time management system for you is very much a question of finding the right horse for the course. 5-2 is powerful, concentrated and disciplined. Simple scanning is less concentrated and less disciplined but perhaps better at producing the life you want to lead, rather than the one your boss wants you to lead!
I actually re-read "Secrets" regularly myself, and each time I am surprised by getting new insights from it. I'm just about to start Chapter 34 on Time Boxing - a subject I've hardly considered in the last year or so. So yes, I regard it as being very much still valid.
I didn't want to make it another book about time management, so I picked a very simple system for the one chapter on that subject. The 5-2 system is very powerful, and has very little overhead. It's best when used in a fairly rigid office environment. As a retired person with very little external pressure I find it too concentrated for the relaxed life I wish to live. But I do go back to it occasionally and amaze myself by how much work I can do in a single day using it.
Finding the best time management system for you is very much a question of finding the right horse for the course. 5-2 is powerful, concentrated and disciplined. Simple scanning is less concentrated and less disciplined but perhaps better at producing the life you want to lead, rather than the one your boss wants you to lead!
May 9, 2020 at 15:08 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Philip:
This blog post by Mark may explain why a No List approach will remain valid:
Back to No-List
http://markforster.squarespace.com/blog/2016/3/28/back-to-no-list.html
This blog post by Mark may explain why a No List approach will remain valid:
Back to No-List
http://markforster.squarespace.com/blog/2016/3/28/back-to-no-list.html
May 13, 2020 at 15:09 |
Christopher
Christopher
Thanks for the input. Makes a lot of sense!
Which system would you recommend for someone that is an entrepreneur and also managing people? Where there are some must-dos but also a good chunk of important-but-not-urgent tasks and projects like strategic planning and self-directed work.
I feel like I need to maintain a backlog of items and project to referr to at least a few times a week, along with reminders and calendar appointments. But outside of that, I found the daily planning with the 5-2 and FVP both work quite well. I like writing out all the tasks I want to get done in the morning. But I often do want to glance at my backlog/master task list to make sure I'm not missing anything I should be prioritrizing or that has an upcoming deadline.
Which system would you recommend for someone that is an entrepreneur and also managing people? Where there are some must-dos but also a good chunk of important-but-not-urgent tasks and projects like strategic planning and self-directed work.
I feel like I need to maintain a backlog of items and project to referr to at least a few times a week, along with reminders and calendar appointments. But outside of that, I found the daily planning with the 5-2 and FVP both work quite well. I like writing out all the tasks I want to get done in the morning. But I often do want to glance at my backlog/master task list to make sure I'm not missing anything I should be prioritrizing or that has an upcoming deadline.
May 14, 2020 at 20:36 |
Philip Skogsberg
Philip Skogsberg
Philip:
Whatever your system is through the day (5-2 and/or FVP in your case), you can easily handle your backlog/master list by scheduling periodic reviews. You can do this either by scheduling a review of the whole list, or by scheduling reviews of the individual projects.
Either way any actions you decide to take as a result of the review gets added to the day list.
Whatever your system is through the day (5-2 and/or FVP in your case), you can easily handle your backlog/master list by scheduling periodic reviews. You can do this either by scheduling a review of the whole list, or by scheduling reviews of the individual projects.
Either way any actions you decide to take as a result of the review gets added to the day list.
May 15, 2020 at 14:38 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Are 5T and 5-2 the same thing with different names?
May 26, 2020 at 15:39 |
TopherJake
TopherJake
TopherJake:
<< Are 5T and 5-2 the same thing with different names? >>
I don't think I've ever used the name 5T (though I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong!). Maybe other people have used it in the comments somewhere, but I can't find an instance of it.
Anyway it would refer to a list with five tasks on it. So it would include 5-2 along with 5-4, 5-3, 5-1 and 5-0, the second number referring to what stage you refill the list to five. I personally have found 5-2 to be the best, but there's nothing to stop you from experimenting.
<< Are 5T and 5-2 the same thing with different names? >>
I don't think I've ever used the name 5T (though I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong!). Maybe other people have used it in the comments somewhere, but I can't find an instance of it.
Anyway it would refer to a list with five tasks on it. So it would include 5-2 along with 5-4, 5-3, 5-1 and 5-0, the second number referring to what stage you refill the list to five. I personally have found 5-2 to be the best, but there's nothing to stop you from experimenting.
May 27, 2020 at 15:12 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
The search feature requires searching on a string of three more characters I think. If I search on " 5T " (double-quote space 5T space double-quote) the site retrieves some comments. There's a comment on an article from the Guardian about 5T.
You don't really name the system in the book so I guess 5T stuck as the unofficial name on the blog. 3T allows you to rotate through the tasks until two are completed before adding two more. SMEMA is similar but it requires you to complete the tasks in the order written before adding two more. So the method in the book seems more similar to SMEMA with five tasks than 3T.
You don't really name the system in the book so I guess 5T stuck as the unofficial name on the blog. 3T allows you to rotate through the tasks until two are completed before adding two more. SMEMA is similar but it requires you to complete the tasks in the order written before adding two more. So the method in the book seems more similar to SMEMA with five tasks than 3T.
June 1, 2020 at 16:02 |
TopherJake
TopherJake
Mark,
I'm curious, but was your shift away from no list systems and towards intuitively actioned no list systems driven mostly by your "retired" life as you put it above, or was there something more fundamental that made you recant your view that "no list systems are the future"?
Additionally, after your shift towards a total embrace of intuitively actioned lists via "stand out", have you ever revisited the weekly list? If "stand out" works to remove the issues with long lists having a tendency to expand and create overwhelm (because you're not trying to "get everything done"), does that also apply to weekly lists, which you criticized for much the same reason?
I'm curious, but was your shift away from no list systems and towards intuitively actioned no list systems driven mostly by your "retired" life as you put it above, or was there something more fundamental that made you recant your view that "no list systems are the future"?
Additionally, after your shift towards a total embrace of intuitively actioned lists via "stand out", have you ever revisited the weekly list? If "stand out" works to remove the issues with long lists having a tendency to expand and create overwhelm (because you're not trying to "get everything done"), does that also apply to weekly lists, which you criticized for much the same reason?
January 1, 2021 at 14:23 |
Aaron Hsu
Aaron Hsu
Aaron:
Well, I think that it was driven by my "retired" life, but not in the way you mean. Being retired means my own work is not money or career driven. That allows me to follow my interests, and one of my interests continues to be time management. (I do have other interests - really I do!).
So I am never going to be content with saying "That's it! I have now found the ultimate time management system which will suit everyone, whatever their profession, their abilities or motivation, and there is no need to look any further".
One point I will make is that just because I have moved on from one system to another, it doesn't mean that the old system doesn't still work just as well as ever it did. Maybe the new system looks at things from a different angle or is more suitable for people in certain kinds of work - but the development of a new system does not mean "You must now do this, rather than that".
Well, I think that it was driven by my "retired" life, but not in the way you mean. Being retired means my own work is not money or career driven. That allows me to follow my interests, and one of my interests continues to be time management. (I do have other interests - really I do!).
So I am never going to be content with saying "That's it! I have now found the ultimate time management system which will suit everyone, whatever their profession, their abilities or motivation, and there is no need to look any further".
One point I will make is that just because I have moved on from one system to another, it doesn't mean that the old system doesn't still work just as well as ever it did. Maybe the new system looks at things from a different angle or is more suitable for people in certain kinds of work - but the development of a new system does not mean "You must now do this, rather than that".
January 1, 2021 at 15:38 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Mark,
Thanks for the clarification, and I certainly do not wish to impose any sort of expectation about a universal system on you. Of course, I am a bit of a time management geek as well, so I am fascinated by the analysis of different methods and perspectives and how they might change over time. I suspect for myself that a true no list, not just no-list lists might actually be the best approach for me provided that I am on top of managing the commitments that i have and that I maintain a high degree of clarity on my life, but that does not mean that I want to give up trying different things and seeing what other people think about things.
Thanks for the clarification, and I certainly do not wish to impose any sort of expectation about a universal system on you. Of course, I am a bit of a time management geek as well, so I am fascinated by the analysis of different methods and perspectives and how they might change over time. I suspect for myself that a true no list, not just no-list lists might actually be the best approach for me provided that I am on top of managing the commitments that i have and that I maintain a high degree of clarity on my life, but that does not mean that I want to give up trying different things and seeing what other people think about things.
January 2, 2021 at 5:53 |
Aaron Hsu
Aaron Hsu
Aaron:
<< I suspect for myself that a true no list, not just no-list lists might actually be the best approach for me >>
I describe a couple of "true no list" methods in my first book "Get Everything Done".
1) Write down the next thing you are going to do and then do it. This forces the mind to concentrate on what to do next, rather than drift. Interruptions are also written down but indented. As well as being remarkably effective, this method gives you a list of exactly what you have done during the day. And if you want to go one step further, you can write down the time at which you start each task, and then you can use it to analyse exactly how you are spending your time.
2) The other method has the advantage that you don't have to write anything down. You ask yourself the question "What am I resisting doing right now?". In my experience I usually get a clear answer to this question. Also in my experience, the resistance disperses when I get the answer, so I can do it without a struggle. Once you've got some experience with the question, you can abbreviate it to "What am I resisting?".
And finally your ability to work without a list would be greatly helped by the following blog post:
http://markforster.squarespace.com/blog/2017/7/25/the-most-important-thing-ive-ever-written.html
<< I suspect for myself that a true no list, not just no-list lists might actually be the best approach for me >>
I describe a couple of "true no list" methods in my first book "Get Everything Done".
1) Write down the next thing you are going to do and then do it. This forces the mind to concentrate on what to do next, rather than drift. Interruptions are also written down but indented. As well as being remarkably effective, this method gives you a list of exactly what you have done during the day. And if you want to go one step further, you can write down the time at which you start each task, and then you can use it to analyse exactly how you are spending your time.
2) The other method has the advantage that you don't have to write anything down. You ask yourself the question "What am I resisting doing right now?". In my experience I usually get a clear answer to this question. Also in my experience, the resistance disperses when I get the answer, so I can do it without a struggle. Once you've got some experience with the question, you can abbreviate it to "What am I resisting?".
And finally your ability to work without a list would be greatly helped by the following blog post:
http://markforster.squarespace.com/blog/2017/7/25/the-most-important-thing-ive-ever-written.html
January 2, 2021 at 15:18 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Mark:
Thanks for this! It's really fascinating that you bring these techniques up. Right now, I'm actually doing a few of these already in my recent modifications of my TM systems. In particular, I picked up a weekly planner that has space for me to spontaneously mark my "feeling good" score as well as a dedicated place for me to mark how I feel each day. I have only been doing this for a few weeks, but I do think that it has been really important.
Additionally, as part of my use of the 5/2 system, I've been recording when I do a given task, which is essentially the more involved version of #1 you give above. I use this to review what I have done over the day and get a feeling of what I think of it. I've found this very nice and helpful as well.
So far, I haven't really encountered any resistance in the new systems, but it's still the holidays, so I'm going to give it probably another month of exploration to see how things settle in over a few more weeks, which should help to identify whether resistance is a major issue.
I'm a bit of a compulsive journaler, so I think that the value I'm now finding in various systems is tied more to the reflective elements of their behavior, instead of their "planning" elements. Therefore, for me, as long as I'm reducing the decision cost per "effective" task, any more excessive long term speculative planning (such as a long list) seems to be counter-productive to my throughput and actual effective action. At least, that's what it seems like so far. Like the "awareness" of tracking how good I feel, I think the awareness granted by a given TM system is exactly the valuable part of the system for me, because the reflection has a more powerful effect on me than the planning does. I get more clarity and that is more motivating and "Kaizen".
Thanks for this! It's really fascinating that you bring these techniques up. Right now, I'm actually doing a few of these already in my recent modifications of my TM systems. In particular, I picked up a weekly planner that has space for me to spontaneously mark my "feeling good" score as well as a dedicated place for me to mark how I feel each day. I have only been doing this for a few weeks, but I do think that it has been really important.
Additionally, as part of my use of the 5/2 system, I've been recording when I do a given task, which is essentially the more involved version of #1 you give above. I use this to review what I have done over the day and get a feeling of what I think of it. I've found this very nice and helpful as well.
So far, I haven't really encountered any resistance in the new systems, but it's still the holidays, so I'm going to give it probably another month of exploration to see how things settle in over a few more weeks, which should help to identify whether resistance is a major issue.
I'm a bit of a compulsive journaler, so I think that the value I'm now finding in various systems is tied more to the reflective elements of their behavior, instead of their "planning" elements. Therefore, for me, as long as I'm reducing the decision cost per "effective" task, any more excessive long term speculative planning (such as a long list) seems to be counter-productive to my throughput and actual effective action. At least, that's what it seems like so far. Like the "awareness" of tracking how good I feel, I think the awareness granted by a given TM system is exactly the valuable part of the system for me, because the reflection has a more powerful effect on me than the planning does. I get more clarity and that is more motivating and "Kaizen".
January 3, 2021 at 3:15 |
Aaron Hsu
Aaron Hsu
Aaron:
Re journalling:
http://markforster.squarespace.com/blog/2006/10/17/road-test-journalling-revisited.html
Re journalling:
http://markforster.squarespace.com/blog/2006/10/17/road-test-journalling-revisited.html
January 3, 2021 at 13:05 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
January 3, 2021 at 13:52 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
I can add anything re: journaling except, amen! The part about awareness was really interesting, and I'm not sure if I have the guts to try that or not! I guess I do, as I am quite curious, so I'm eager to explore the possibilities around the idea of observation without directed reactive intent (AKA, intentional problem solving based on actioning observable phenomenon). .
January 5, 2021 at 10:33 |
Aaron Hsu
Aaron Hsu
Aaron:
The awareness one is interesting, isn't it?
My own experience with it is not extensive. The one thing I have discovered is that it's important to have an intention - as in the video where the intention was to give up eating cookies. Just monitoring without the intention doesn't achieve anything.
A selection of the things I have tried it with:
Weight. I've never kept to this long enough to know if one can lose a serious amount of weight with it. But it has worked for me in preventing me from putting on huge amounts of weight over Christmas (or recovering if one already has put the weight on). I have also found that I can keep my weight steady using it in normal circumstances.
Feeling good. I've described that in another article. Highly effective.
Exercise. Recording the number of steps I've taken has always resulted in a fairly rapid increase in the amount of walking I do.
Blood pressure. This is interesting. If I take my blood pressure every day and record it, my blood pressure stays within acceptable boundaries. If i don't take it on a daily basis, then it starts to rise. I can bring it down again fairly quickly, just by returning to daily recording. My doctor thinks I'm crazy!
Sleep. I have a tendency to go to bed late at night (2 a.m. or later) and get up late. Whatever time I go to bed I find that I sleep about seven and a half hours. I want to go to bed before midnight, so that I get up earlier in the morning. Setting an alarm for bedtime has proved completely ineffective, so I am now using monitoring. This has failed so far, but I think it may be because I've still been using the alarm - that's probably a mistake. So I'm going to continue the experiment, but without using an alarm - just the monitoring.
Money. I describe in the book how I have a target amount for my current bank account. By monitoring my lowest point forecast it adjusts automatically upwards or downwards. The COVID restrictions have defeated that. I've spent much less money than usual so it's way above target at the moment.
I believe the method was originally developed as a method of pain control. I'm lucky enough not to have any chronic pain, but it's worth remembering that it might be effective.
I should add that I've always found that using penalties, or other methods of reinforcing the monitoring, have reduced the effect rather than increased it.
I'll probably be adding typing speed to the list!
The awareness one is interesting, isn't it?
My own experience with it is not extensive. The one thing I have discovered is that it's important to have an intention - as in the video where the intention was to give up eating cookies. Just monitoring without the intention doesn't achieve anything.
A selection of the things I have tried it with:
Weight. I've never kept to this long enough to know if one can lose a serious amount of weight with it. But it has worked for me in preventing me from putting on huge amounts of weight over Christmas (or recovering if one already has put the weight on). I have also found that I can keep my weight steady using it in normal circumstances.
Feeling good. I've described that in another article. Highly effective.
Exercise. Recording the number of steps I've taken has always resulted in a fairly rapid increase in the amount of walking I do.
Blood pressure. This is interesting. If I take my blood pressure every day and record it, my blood pressure stays within acceptable boundaries. If i don't take it on a daily basis, then it starts to rise. I can bring it down again fairly quickly, just by returning to daily recording. My doctor thinks I'm crazy!
Sleep. I have a tendency to go to bed late at night (2 a.m. or later) and get up late. Whatever time I go to bed I find that I sleep about seven and a half hours. I want to go to bed before midnight, so that I get up earlier in the morning. Setting an alarm for bedtime has proved completely ineffective, so I am now using monitoring. This has failed so far, but I think it may be because I've still been using the alarm - that's probably a mistake. So I'm going to continue the experiment, but without using an alarm - just the monitoring.
Money. I describe in the book how I have a target amount for my current bank account. By monitoring my lowest point forecast it adjusts automatically upwards or downwards. The COVID restrictions have defeated that. I've spent much less money than usual so it's way above target at the moment.
I believe the method was originally developed as a method of pain control. I'm lucky enough not to have any chronic pain, but it's worth remembering that it might be effective.
I should add that I've always found that using penalties, or other methods of reinforcing the monitoring, have reduced the effect rather than increased it.
I'll probably be adding typing speed to the list!
January 5, 2021 at 13:04 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Now my question to Mark (and to the readers) is: What advice in "Secrets of Productive People" is no longer valid?
Seeing as Mark has developed and iterated on so many new versions of time management systems since the book was published in 2015 (like FVP, simple scanning etc) does he still promote the Simple Time Management System suggested in the book?
Thanks!