Discussion Forum > The Time Credit Card
Fascinating! Not at all how I perceive lists:
<< I recently found that when I put something on a list, I've actually given myself a "task done" reward. That thing I should do is processed, decided and stored. I'm done with it! When I see it again in the future, I go "Haven't I dealt with you already?" and don't feel the need to complete it or even worst, disgusted by how hard it is to scrape it out of my life for good. >>
You seem to perceive a list as a burden and a longer list is a bigger burden. You write things to attempt to relieve the burden but naturally that fails.
I perceive a lack of lists as a burden of forgetfulness. I can't do X because I have to do Y, but I can't remember what that Y is. Equally, a list with forgotten contents is a burden of the same type. So a good list to me is short and familiar to the point of understanding which things are most pressing. Thus my list is awareness of what I shall do, not what I'm trying to escape.
<< I recently found that when I put something on a list, I've actually given myself a "task done" reward. That thing I should do is processed, decided and stored. I'm done with it! When I see it again in the future, I go "Haven't I dealt with you already?" and don't feel the need to complete it or even worst, disgusted by how hard it is to scrape it out of my life for good. >>
You seem to perceive a list as a burden and a longer list is a bigger burden. You write things to attempt to relieve the burden but naturally that fails.
I perceive a lack of lists as a burden of forgetfulness. I can't do X because I have to do Y, but I can't remember what that Y is. Equally, a list with forgotten contents is a burden of the same type. So a good list to me is short and familiar to the point of understanding which things are most pressing. Thus my list is awareness of what I shall do, not what I'm trying to escape.
August 30, 2011 at 3:46 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Erik, thank you so much for your views, I love hearing about all different perspectives. In fact, I think your analogy about credit cards is very very useful! Especially having had my share of troubles with them! For me, the lists themselves are not really like the credit cards, I think the "credit card" here applies to procrastination itself. In my choice to put something off, I'm buying time "on credit." In this sense, a list is only an objective tracking of what I actually owe. So if I don't feel like doing something other than staring at the TV, for example, I give in and make a payment using time that I don't have.
In this sense, what a list becomes for me, especially AF1 in my free-flowing notebook, is a way of aggressively paying down the debt. With a credit card, you certainly stop using them, but you can't simply stop paying the debt. Similarly, while of course you can stop procrastinating, you can't just stop working. Well, not normally anyway. I'm assuming that the "stuff" you are procrastinating needs to be paid in full somehow.
In fact, this is actually what is happening in my experience. When I first started using AF1, I had a fascinating experience. Within the first month of using it on a regular basis, my task list at work become smaller and smaller until I was actually had no list -- I was able to do work as it came in! Then I lost this state of bliss until recently, when I combined my AF1 lists with the free form notebook. Now the same thing is happening -- my list is getting smaller and smaller. I date the end of the list now so I can keep track of it, and now at this point, my oldest item is only two days old. To be sure, some items have been on the list a long time, but no item has been untouched for more than two days. Like paying off a debt, little and often works, until you wake up one day and you have no more debt. As long as you stop using the cards, of course. In a way, because I'm not procrastinating as much, my "time debt" is less and less. And I feel I owe this to the use of a list.
Creating a list for me is like sitting down and taking a hard and honest look at my financial situation before working out a strategy for aggressively and meaningfully paying down a debt. The bank statements are not the cause of my debt, but they do help enormously in understanding where the money is going and what debt I need to work on first. I hope that makes some kind of sense! Let me know what you think, I'm just exploring ideas as well.
In this sense, what a list becomes for me, especially AF1 in my free-flowing notebook, is a way of aggressively paying down the debt. With a credit card, you certainly stop using them, but you can't simply stop paying the debt. Similarly, while of course you can stop procrastinating, you can't just stop working. Well, not normally anyway. I'm assuming that the "stuff" you are procrastinating needs to be paid in full somehow.
In fact, this is actually what is happening in my experience. When I first started using AF1, I had a fascinating experience. Within the first month of using it on a regular basis, my task list at work become smaller and smaller until I was actually had no list -- I was able to do work as it came in! Then I lost this state of bliss until recently, when I combined my AF1 lists with the free form notebook. Now the same thing is happening -- my list is getting smaller and smaller. I date the end of the list now so I can keep track of it, and now at this point, my oldest item is only two days old. To be sure, some items have been on the list a long time, but no item has been untouched for more than two days. Like paying off a debt, little and often works, until you wake up one day and you have no more debt. As long as you stop using the cards, of course. In a way, because I'm not procrastinating as much, my "time debt" is less and less. And I feel I owe this to the use of a list.
Creating a list for me is like sitting down and taking a hard and honest look at my financial situation before working out a strategy for aggressively and meaningfully paying down a debt. The bank statements are not the cause of my debt, but they do help enormously in understanding where the money is going and what debt I need to work on first. I hope that makes some kind of sense! Let me know what you think, I'm just exploring ideas as well.
August 30, 2011 at 5:32 |
Paul MacNeil
Paul MacNeil
Hi Erik - You always have interesting ideas. :-)
The way I look at it, the debt is already there. Writing it down helps me deal with it more effectively.
The not-writing-it-down approach seems to me like having a pile of credit card debts, but not wanting to write down a list of the total amounts owed, because of the anxiety produced when seeing the total amounts.
The way I look at it, the debt is already there. Writing it down helps me deal with it more effectively.
The not-writing-it-down approach seems to me like having a pile of credit card debts, but not wanting to write down a list of the total amounts owed, because of the anxiety produced when seeing the total amounts.
August 30, 2011 at 7:03 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Seraphim:
<< The not-writing-it-down approach seems to me like having a pile of credit card debts, but not wanting to write down a list of the total amounts owed, because of the anxiety produced when seeing the total amounts. >>
As a life coach I often found myself having to deal with people who had debt trouble. The first step was always to get them to write down everything that they owed. Even though the total was almost invariably larger than they had expected, they still experienced a sense of relief from having a quantified amount rather than a continual vague and haunting black cloud over their heads which they were afraid of looking at.
<< The not-writing-it-down approach seems to me like having a pile of credit card debts, but not wanting to write down a list of the total amounts owed, because of the anxiety produced when seeing the total amounts. >>
As a life coach I often found myself having to deal with people who had debt trouble. The first step was always to get them to write down everything that they owed. Even though the total was almost invariably larger than they had expected, they still experienced a sense of relief from having a quantified amount rather than a continual vague and haunting black cloud over their heads which they were afraid of looking at.
August 30, 2011 at 11:33 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Erik:
<< But more then that, I found that I really procrastinated on the things that are on lists... >>
Does that mean that if you wrote down everything you had to do you wouldn't do any of it?
<< But more then that, I found that I really procrastinated on the things that are on lists... >>
Does that mean that if you wrote down everything you had to do you wouldn't do any of it?
August 30, 2011 at 11:36 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
<<I've always said that I believe lists to be to time what credit cards are to money.>>
Erik,
this seems to be a wrong concept, at least to me. There's a money budget, and there's a time budget. Calendars and time tables are to time what bank accounts and credit cards are to money.
Lists are just reminders of things you could do or buy. There is no commitment in a simple list, neither financially nor work-related. There is no need to be afraid of lists. IMHO, accountability is what is needed, in usage of time and in spending money.
Erik,
this seems to be a wrong concept, at least to me. There's a money budget, and there's a time budget. Calendars and time tables are to time what bank accounts and credit cards are to money.
Lists are just reminders of things you could do or buy. There is no commitment in a simple list, neither financially nor work-related. There is no need to be afraid of lists. IMHO, accountability is what is needed, in usage of time and in spending money.
August 30, 2011 at 12:00 |
Rainer
Rainer
Lists can be like a credit card if you use them to accumulate promises of action. As in the sitcom wherein the hero promises 3 things to 3 people, all to be fulfilled same day (and never have the courage to renegotiate because that would spoil the laughs). If you aren't flexible in either what gets done nor when, that's when you get overcommitted and exceed your daily budget. Then you start paying back with interest and ultimately return lots of stuff, canceling orders for things you need because you can't cover them. You haven't got the emotional and physical energy.
Me, I've learned to pace my spending. Not perfectly, but I don't usually borrow time to catch up; rather plan to spend it later on that list.
Me, I've learned to pace my spending. Not perfectly, but I don't usually borrow time to catch up; rather plan to spend it later on that list.
August 30, 2011 at 13:10 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Interesting. I never thought of lists this way, but I can see how the "task debt" could pile up.
For me, writing something on a list for like putting money into an account. It's there because I intend to spend it, or because I want it to be safe until I decide how to spend it. It can sit safely in the account. It won't fall out of my wallet or be spent on something else. I may decide never to spend it. I enjoy the possibilities.
I prefer, though, the debt-already-existing analogy. I can see what's there and make informed decisions. I don't have to walk around the house and open every cupboard and read every file to see what needs to be done.
However, I see your point. Parts of my list are credit cards. Writing the task is just putting it off, and it will get worse. (My filing pile and basement storage are like that.) It gives a temporary reprieve, and comes back to bite me. If you write it on the list (or throw it in the pile) and have never go back to deal with it, things gets nasty. I find, though, that it's easier to look at a list and do things than to hope I remember them.
For me, writing something on a list for like putting money into an account. It's there because I intend to spend it, or because I want it to be safe until I decide how to spend it. It can sit safely in the account. It won't fall out of my wallet or be spent on something else. I may decide never to spend it. I enjoy the possibilities.
I prefer, though, the debt-already-existing analogy. I can see what's there and make informed decisions. I don't have to walk around the house and open every cupboard and read every file to see what needs to be done.
However, I see your point. Parts of my list are credit cards. Writing the task is just putting it off, and it will get worse. (My filing pile and basement storage are like that.) It gives a temporary reprieve, and comes back to bite me. If you write it on the list (or throw it in the pile) and have never go back to deal with it, things gets nasty. I find, though, that it's easier to look at a list and do things than to hope I remember them.
August 30, 2011 at 14:10 |
Cricket
Cricket
I know what Erik means, and I've used the same analogy myself: "If I'm so good at managing money, why can't I budget my time as well?"
Before I started using "systems," I made regular open-ended to-do lists like everyone else, and it is *these* lists that feel like a credit card. As soon as I'd write something down, I'd feel that I had to do it. After all, it's a "to *DO*" list, right?
Having been through GTD and now the AF/SF systems, I can now say there are two types of items on our lists: Unfinished and Unstarted.
For me, the Unfinished comprise the time debt, and like Erik, I think of them as overspent on my credit card. Occasionally, an Unfinished item gets deleted due to changing circumstances, but as a fellow "finishing guy," I feel a commitment to myself over each of these Unfinished things, until they are completely finished ("paid"). To me, the appeal of AF4 and some of our SF/C2 variants was to collect all the Unfinished into one list, like the credit card register.
That is one list not to ignore, and not to carry in your head. It's in your head anyway, like it or not, bugging you from the shadows, so you may as well get it all under scrutiny and see what it adds up to. I understand Erik achieves this graphically using his kanban, rather than a textual list.
The Unstarted list, though, was quite an innovation for me: I can write stuff down and *not* be under immediate pressure to get it finished? Wow! The Unstarted list are your future purchases. Don't buy off this list until having paid off a sufficient chunk of the Unfinished.
Before I started using "systems," I made regular open-ended to-do lists like everyone else, and it is *these* lists that feel like a credit card. As soon as I'd write something down, I'd feel that I had to do it. After all, it's a "to *DO*" list, right?
Having been through GTD and now the AF/SF systems, I can now say there are two types of items on our lists: Unfinished and Unstarted.
For me, the Unfinished comprise the time debt, and like Erik, I think of them as overspent on my credit card. Occasionally, an Unfinished item gets deleted due to changing circumstances, but as a fellow "finishing guy," I feel a commitment to myself over each of these Unfinished things, until they are completely finished ("paid"). To me, the appeal of AF4 and some of our SF/C2 variants was to collect all the Unfinished into one list, like the credit card register.
That is one list not to ignore, and not to carry in your head. It's in your head anyway, like it or not, bugging you from the shadows, so you may as well get it all under scrutiny and see what it adds up to. I understand Erik achieves this graphically using his kanban, rather than a textual list.
The Unstarted list, though, was quite an innovation for me: I can write stuff down and *not* be under immediate pressure to get it finished? Wow! The Unstarted list are your future purchases. Don't buy off this list until having paid off a sufficient chunk of the Unfinished.
August 30, 2011 at 14:15 |
Bernie
Bernie
Bernie:
<< I know what Erik means, and I've used the same analogy myself: "If I'm so good at managing money, why can't I budget my time as well?" >>
Because with money it's easy to strike a balance and with most time management systems it's not.
One of the biggest keys to money management is to work out one's recurring expenditure and any forecast expenditure and feed that into a cash flow sheet. You can then easily see how much money you have available for unforeseen expenditure.
Very few people bother to do anything like that with time management, and if they do they usually ignore the results!
My new system makes a lot of this automatic. With it you can monitor how well your daily "income" (tasks coming in) matches your daily "expenditure" (tasks getting done) and adjust accordingly. You could do this in DIT, but the new system is more flexible and easier to adjust.
<< I know what Erik means, and I've used the same analogy myself: "If I'm so good at managing money, why can't I budget my time as well?" >>
Because with money it's easy to strike a balance and with most time management systems it's not.
One of the biggest keys to money management is to work out one's recurring expenditure and any forecast expenditure and feed that into a cash flow sheet. You can then easily see how much money you have available for unforeseen expenditure.
Very few people bother to do anything like that with time management, and if they do they usually ignore the results!
My new system makes a lot of this automatic. With it you can monitor how well your daily "income" (tasks coming in) matches your daily "expenditure" (tasks getting done) and adjust accordingly. You could do this in DIT, but the new system is more flexible and easier to adjust.
August 30, 2011 at 14:38 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
<<I may be the only one,>>
You're not the only one. But as David Allen states: "There are worse habits"
But Erik, let me ask you this, would you place posting on productivity forums in the same category as making lists? Does this help or hinder your desire to "finish things".
Me? I make lists for the same reason I keep an audio journal: nostalgia. I have no illusion that making lists helps me get important things/projects done. In the past, I have had 0 correlation between my most successful projects/accomplishments and list making and/or productivity ideas.
You're not the only one. But as David Allen states: "There are worse habits"
But Erik, let me ask you this, would you place posting on productivity forums in the same category as making lists? Does this help or hinder your desire to "finish things".
Me? I make lists for the same reason I keep an audio journal: nostalgia. I have no illusion that making lists helps me get important things/projects done. In the past, I have had 0 correlation between my most successful projects/accomplishments and list making and/or productivity ideas.
August 30, 2011 at 14:55 |
avrum
avrum
Rainer:
<<Lists are just reminders of things you could do or buy>>
I think Erik is also saying that making lists expends energy AND provides a false feeling of accomplishment.
I tend to agree with this - yet I continue to make lists and read productivity porn. I figure - it's healthier than Meth.
<<Lists are just reminders of things you could do or buy>>
I think Erik is also saying that making lists expends energy AND provides a false feeling of accomplishment.
I tend to agree with this - yet I continue to make lists and read productivity porn. I figure - it's healthier than Meth.
August 30, 2011 at 15:03 |
avrum
avrum
avrum:
<< In the past, I have had 0 correlation between my most successful projects/accomplishments and list making and/or productivity ideas. >>
On the principle that if it works do more of it and if it doesn't work stop doing it, what _has_ correlated with your most successful projects/accomplishments?
<< In the past, I have had 0 correlation between my most successful projects/accomplishments and list making and/or productivity ideas. >>
On the principle that if it works do more of it and if it doesn't work stop doing it, what _has_ correlated with your most successful projects/accomplishments?
August 30, 2011 at 15:10 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
<<making lists expends energy AND provides a false feeling of accomplishment. >>
I don't understand this. I consider both false and don't see the other perspective.
I don't understand this. I consider both false and don't see the other perspective.
August 30, 2011 at 15:11 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
There may also be an issue here of seeing the list as a tool or as a weapon (used against oneself). Using the time credit card idea, I'd see the list as a budget and each task as a line item on the budget. How much time do you want to spend on each item? (It also sounds like you want to spend your time in one big purchase rather than using an installment plan :)
But then one piece of advice to get people to reframe their dread of budgets is to call them "spending plans." Not sure what else you could call a list to reframe it into something that speaks more positively to you.
I wonder if you're rebelling against the linear nature of lists lined up on a page? The Kanban idea (I've not seen your videos) seems more mindmappish, and since you're actually handling the tasks as you move them from column to column, the feeling is quite different from the thrill of marking through a done task on a line.
Do you use grocery lists when shopping? The nature of such lists is that they're temporary, and maybe scribbled on the fly. Whereas when we dedicate a notebook or steno pad to store our lists, that temporary nature is removed. (To continue the financial metaphor -- my AF steno pad becomes my ledger of accounts.)
Good luck -- let us know your progress on this question.
But then one piece of advice to get people to reframe their dread of budgets is to call them "spending plans." Not sure what else you could call a list to reframe it into something that speaks more positively to you.
I wonder if you're rebelling against the linear nature of lists lined up on a page? The Kanban idea (I've not seen your videos) seems more mindmappish, and since you're actually handling the tasks as you move them from column to column, the feeling is quite different from the thrill of marking through a done task on a line.
Do you use grocery lists when shopping? The nature of such lists is that they're temporary, and maybe scribbled on the fly. Whereas when we dedicate a notebook or steno pad to store our lists, that temporary nature is removed. (To continue the financial metaphor -- my AF steno pad becomes my ledger of accounts.)
Good luck -- let us know your progress on this question.
August 30, 2011 at 17:03 |
Mike Brown
Mike Brown
Mark:
<<On the principle that if it works do more of it and if it doesn't work stop doing it, what _has_ correlated with your most successful projects/accomplishments>>
1. An unsettling anxiety/panic that I'm pissing my life away and/or staying too long in comfort zones. My late father paid a heavy price for this. And so, when I act like this, the emotional pain can be channeled to accomplish great things.
2. Barbara Sher's idea of success teams & isolation being a dream killer. The movie soundtracks I composed... the adventures I've embarked on... were often planned or co-worked with 1 - 2 other people.
I use lists & systems as a surrogate when either of the above 2 criteria are not being met.
However I do feel less drift-like with some form of system i.e DWM
I just finished my 3rd (private tutoring) cartoon lesson. My graphic novel is slowly taking shape II don't recall adding "draw" or "do cartoon homework" to a list :)
<<On the principle that if it works do more of it and if it doesn't work stop doing it, what _has_ correlated with your most successful projects/accomplishments>>
1. An unsettling anxiety/panic that I'm pissing my life away and/or staying too long in comfort zones. My late father paid a heavy price for this. And so, when I act like this, the emotional pain can be channeled to accomplish great things.
2. Barbara Sher's idea of success teams & isolation being a dream killer. The movie soundtracks I composed... the adventures I've embarked on... were often planned or co-worked with 1 - 2 other people.
I use lists & systems as a surrogate when either of the above 2 criteria are not being met.
However I do feel less drift-like with some form of system i.e DWM
I just finished my 3rd (private tutoring) cartoon lesson. My graphic novel is slowly taking shape II don't recall adding "draw" or "do cartoon homework" to a list :)
August 30, 2011 at 17:25 |
avrum
avrum
I don't see where we can get anymore hours in the day by borrowing, though we could die with a large credit debt. Emergencies come up and we may have to borrow. A savings account would act the same way. The only way I can think of to save up time is get better at things I do daily and plan my projects so they don't take so long. And realize the budget ahead of time, some things won't fit.
August 30, 2011 at 18:43 |
Erin
Erin
Avrum:
<< My graphic novel is slowly taking shape II don't recall adding "draw" or "do cartoon homework" to a list :) >>
I think you wrote it down here a few times!
Your 1. above is a "prevention goal". Heidi Grant Halvorson deals with these in "Succeed". They can be extremely effective if handled correctly.
Your 2. above conforms to what I said a week or so ago about how continually talking to people about a major goal is an excellent way of getting it to happen!
However successfully you are dealing with major goals, you still need to be able to deal with the routine stuff that all of us have to deal with every day. It's this that lists are particularly good at. I've often said that you can be immensely creative but if your bills are unpaid, your car unserviced, your tax overdue, you've forgotten your nearest-and-dearest's birthday and you've got no clean laundry for that important meeting, then you are never going to be able to exploit your creativity to its fullest extent.
<< My graphic novel is slowly taking shape II don't recall adding "draw" or "do cartoon homework" to a list :) >>
I think you wrote it down here a few times!
Your 1. above is a "prevention goal". Heidi Grant Halvorson deals with these in "Succeed". They can be extremely effective if handled correctly.
Your 2. above conforms to what I said a week or so ago about how continually talking to people about a major goal is an excellent way of getting it to happen!
However successfully you are dealing with major goals, you still need to be able to deal with the routine stuff that all of us have to deal with every day. It's this that lists are particularly good at. I've often said that you can be immensely creative but if your bills are unpaid, your car unserviced, your tax overdue, you've forgotten your nearest-and-dearest's birthday and you've got no clean laundry for that important meeting, then you are never going to be able to exploit your creativity to its fullest extent.
August 30, 2011 at 19:25 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Mark:
<<I've often said that you can be immensely creative but if your bills are unpaid, your car unserviced>>
The question remains: How many rules.... new systems... notebooks & pens... does a person need to work on 1, maybe 2, major projects AND cook supper?
I'd wager that most creative types, that I know, rely on the blasphemous to-do list. And they seem to be doing quite fine.
Which is why I wonder why you (sometimes me) and others buy the hype of a cure-all system? I can't tell if the sentiments are real, or tongue-in-cheek. And really, does it even make a difference? Kinda a harmless way to kill time.
<<I've often said that you can be immensely creative but if your bills are unpaid, your car unserviced>>
The question remains: How many rules.... new systems... notebooks & pens... does a person need to work on 1, maybe 2, major projects AND cook supper?
I'd wager that most creative types, that I know, rely on the blasphemous to-do list. And they seem to be doing quite fine.
Which is why I wonder why you (sometimes me) and others buy the hype of a cure-all system? I can't tell if the sentiments are real, or tongue-in-cheek. And really, does it even make a difference? Kinda a harmless way to kill time.
August 30, 2011 at 19:52 |
avrum
avrum
On question of when you write something on a list are you spending your future or getting it off your mind. If I sign a contract, I am spending my future till the job is done. Not much relief to see it on the list, I have to see progress.
August 30, 2011 at 20:01 |
Erin
Erin
I'm not among too many creative types. My impression though is there are two categories:
A) Those for whom their lifestyle is a reflection of their creativity. The elegant furnishing happens because elegance is a focus.
B) Those for whom their lifestyle is irrelevant to their creativity. The house is a mess, appointments are forgotten, because their non-emergency time is focused on being creative and avoiding work because that's not their thing.
A) Those for whom their lifestyle is a reflection of their creativity. The elegant furnishing happens because elegance is a focus.
B) Those for whom their lifestyle is irrelevant to their creativity. The house is a mess, appointments are forgotten, because their non-emergency time is focused on being creative and avoiding work because that's not their thing.
August 30, 2011 at 20:37 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
<<I'm not among too many creative types. My impression though is there are two categories:>>
My wife might make up a 3rd category - a psychiatrist @ a hospital in Toronto, & when the mood hits, a very talented artist. No vision boards, no lists of any kind.
My wife might make up a 3rd category - a psychiatrist @ a hospital in Toronto, & when the mood hits, a very talented artist. No vision boards, no lists of any kind.
August 30, 2011 at 20:52 |
avrum
avrum
Alan, I'm not sure that what you meant is that people can be creative in a mess or that people whose lifestyle is irrelevant can focus on creativity.
Twyla Tharp wrote an excellent book called the "Creative Habit". It is the opposite of avoiding work.
Twyla Tharp wrote an excellent book called the "Creative Habit". It is the opposite of avoiding work.
August 30, 2011 at 21:55 |
Erin
Erin
<<excellent book called the "Creative Habit".>>
A good book, that I wanted to love, but I had trouble relating to. Perhaps it was the examples (dance), or that the book (seems) aimed at professional artists.
I found the War of Art by S. Pressfield to be a stunner.
A good book, that I wanted to love, but I had trouble relating to. Perhaps it was the examples (dance), or that the book (seems) aimed at professional artists.
I found the War of Art by S. Pressfield to be a stunner.
August 30, 2011 at 22:06 |
avrum
avrum
avrum:
<< Which is why I wonder why you (sometimes me) and others buy the hype of a cure-all system? I can't tell if the sentiments are real, or tongue-in-cheek. And really, does it even make a difference? Kinda a harmless way to kill time. >>
Well personally I used my own systems to set up my own business after a lifetime of salaried employment and earn more at it within three months than my salary used to be, write three books, run a highly efficient and effective coaching system, and run three or four seminars a month, plus answer countless queries, run a blog and newsletter - and continue a lot of that after retiring and having now a lot of other interests. So I don't need to buy the hype. It's revolutionised my life. And the systems I was using ten years ago when I started out were a lot less efficient than the ones I've developed lately.
And the latest one is just amazing.
<< Which is why I wonder why you (sometimes me) and others buy the hype of a cure-all system? I can't tell if the sentiments are real, or tongue-in-cheek. And really, does it even make a difference? Kinda a harmless way to kill time. >>
Well personally I used my own systems to set up my own business after a lifetime of salaried employment and earn more at it within three months than my salary used to be, write three books, run a highly efficient and effective coaching system, and run three or four seminars a month, plus answer countless queries, run a blog and newsletter - and continue a lot of that after retiring and having now a lot of other interests. So I don't need to buy the hype. It's revolutionised my life. And the systems I was using ten years ago when I started out were a lot less efficient than the ones I've developed lately.
And the latest one is just amazing.
August 30, 2011 at 22:43 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
<<I used my own systems... and earn more at it within three months than my salary used to be>>
Oh no, I get it! The same thing happened to me, professional (move from individual --> family therapy) and personally (commitment-phobic --> marriage). I figured, if it (Family Systems therapy/theory) worked for me, it'll work for others. As such i never felt the pull to keep looking. I do admire your search for the (near) perfect list-making system.
Oh no, I get it! The same thing happened to me, professional (move from individual --> family therapy) and personally (commitment-phobic --> marriage). I figured, if it (Family Systems therapy/theory) worked for me, it'll work for others. As such i never felt the pull to keep looking. I do admire your search for the (near) perfect list-making system.
August 30, 2011 at 23:02 |
avrum
avrum
avrum:
<< I do admire your search for the (near) perfect list-making system. >>
Anyone can make a list. You don't need a system for that. The secret is in what you do with it.
And by the way the work which I was doing in my new business was life coaching, not time management. The time management was what I used to organise the life coaching business. It only gradually became the focus of my business.
<< I do admire your search for the (near) perfect list-making system. >>
Anyone can make a list. You don't need a system for that. The secret is in what you do with it.
And by the way the work which I was doing in my new business was life coaching, not time management. The time management was what I used to organise the life coaching business. It only gradually became the focus of my business.
August 30, 2011 at 23:18 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
I think life coaching is the all-encompassing topic. Time management helps you do what you already know you need to do, but if you haven't identified your long-term goals and the steps to get there, it won't help you. I'm not sure what to call the opposite extreme, where you focus too much on your long-term goals. Life coaching blends them. It helps identify and refine (and sometimes totally change) your long-term goals, but balances work on them with the daily grind and other goals of all levels. It also helps you see how items on the daily grind are actually part of the long-term goals (or maybe see that they aren't, in which case it gives you permission to drop them).
August 31, 2011 at 14:03 |
Cricket
Cricket
Cricket:
<< Time management helps you do what you already know you need to do, but if you haven't identified your long-term goals and the steps to get there, it won't help you. >>
That's not quite my experience, either my own or that of coaching hundreds of clients. If one is not confident in one's own capability to be organised enough to carry things through it will directly impact the type of goals one is prepared to take on.
Huge numbers of people have long experience of taking on projects with great enthusiasm only to fail to keep them going. This has the effect of causing them to mistrust their own ability and to shy away from taking on goals which take them out of their comfort zone.
So to say that time management won't help you unless you have identified your long-term goals is to put the cart before the horse. You will not be prepared to take on challenging long-term goals unless you trust your time management.
<< Time management helps you do what you already know you need to do, but if you haven't identified your long-term goals and the steps to get there, it won't help you. >>
That's not quite my experience, either my own or that of coaching hundreds of clients. If one is not confident in one's own capability to be organised enough to carry things through it will directly impact the type of goals one is prepared to take on.
Huge numbers of people have long experience of taking on projects with great enthusiasm only to fail to keep them going. This has the effect of causing them to mistrust their own ability and to shy away from taking on goals which take them out of their comfort zone.
So to say that time management won't help you unless you have identified your long-term goals is to put the cart before the horse. You will not be prepared to take on challenging long-term goals unless you trust your time management.
August 31, 2011 at 18:26 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Very good point! You need the time management tools in place and trusted before you can achieve big goals.
Maybe it's like a table. If any leg is longer or shorter than the others, it won't work. Or it's only as strong as the strongest leg. Or maybe it's a wheel, with spokes (which gets away from exactly 4 legs).
However, if I focus exclusively on time management, I never weed out the tasks that I don't really need to do (and which suck up time). Nor do I add the ones that will get me towards revised goals. Nor do I feel that what I'm doing now is attached to my goals -- it's just drudgery.
That's where a life coach with many skills helps. They can help decide when to focus on time management and when to focus on goals, and help the client at each stage.
Maybe it's like a table. If any leg is longer or shorter than the others, it won't work. Or it's only as strong as the strongest leg. Or maybe it's a wheel, with spokes (which gets away from exactly 4 legs).
However, if I focus exclusively on time management, I never weed out the tasks that I don't really need to do (and which suck up time). Nor do I add the ones that will get me towards revised goals. Nor do I feel that what I'm doing now is attached to my goals -- it's just drudgery.
That's where a life coach with many skills helps. They can help decide when to focus on time management and when to focus on goals, and help the client at each stage.
August 31, 2011 at 18:46 |
Cricket
Cricket
Sounds right to me. Being organized helps get things done. Having a directed focus helps get better things done.
August 31, 2011 at 21:53 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
I'm not about to drop lists. and not sure I have the same issue with lists that Erik has, yet I DO have a problem with lists.
just this week I listed everything needed to get done on a wide variety of projects, before a hard deadline.
with so much on the list it is making it hard for me to start doing anything on the list which of course makes problem worse.
some items should be dropped. I find it hard to drop anything once on the list. even more as some of the items to drop call into question entire life choices and directions. so not a quick question of read this book later.
rather, they are issues of, doing this will continue to improve relationship with this possible path I'm trying to succeed at.
so in NOT doing something, even if by choosing to drop it, I feel a sense of letting myself down. all of this cognitive noise also keeps me from doing what likely should really be the core of what needs to get done.
all this from lists :)
just this week I listed everything needed to get done on a wide variety of projects, before a hard deadline.
with so much on the list it is making it hard for me to start doing anything on the list which of course makes problem worse.
some items should be dropped. I find it hard to drop anything once on the list. even more as some of the items to drop call into question entire life choices and directions. so not a quick question of read this book later.
rather, they are issues of, doing this will continue to improve relationship with this possible path I'm trying to succeed at.
so in NOT doing something, even if by choosing to drop it, I feel a sense of letting myself down. all of this cognitive noise also keeps me from doing what likely should really be the core of what needs to get done.
all this from lists :)
August 31, 2011 at 23:17 |
matthewS
matthewS
matthewS:
<< all this from lists :) >>
Which raises the question of what you would have done if you _hadn't_ made any lists.
Would you have got every single thing done?
Or would you still have had to drop some items?
Perhaps the answer is to drop those things from your list which you don't think you would have done if you hadn't made a list.
<< all this from lists :) >>
Which raises the question of what you would have done if you _hadn't_ made any lists.
Would you have got every single thing done?
Or would you still have had to drop some items?
Perhaps the answer is to drop those things from your list which you don't think you would have done if you hadn't made a list.
August 31, 2011 at 23:50 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
Mark:
<<Which raises the question of what you would have done if you _hadn't_ made any lists.>.
Reading Dreams, it felt as if you answered that question with the following:
"You'd be pulled to get the most significant things done".
A stunning claim, but one that I didn't experience while engaged in the process (I'm open to the fact that I was doing it wrong).
<<Which raises the question of what you would have done if you _hadn't_ made any lists.>.
Reading Dreams, it felt as if you answered that question with the following:
"You'd be pulled to get the most significant things done".
A stunning claim, but one that I didn't experience while engaged in the process (I'm open to the fact that I was doing it wrong).
September 1, 2011 at 0:04 |
avrum
avrum
Just to tell you guys and gals I posted something but took me too much time to submit so I lost everything :( Will try again later!
September 1, 2011 at 4:54 |
Erik
Erik
When I first saw the replies I went: Fblrtpnmmmm!
Then I sat back for a second and went: nice! :D
I noticed that the thread is addressing a wide variety of aspects of the question I rose and that there are more then a few questions directed to me specifically. I think that trying to answer to them individually won't help anyone so I'll take the liberty to make a wide open post and hope it covers most of the questions. I won't go much in the details so if I forgot stuff, please forgive me and do post your toughs again!
Even Field
Let me even the field of the talk a little bit.
All of this is, of course, only my personal observations.
I define 2 Types of tasks: Project and Maintenance.
Project tasks are things you have been inspired to do and that will be finished at one point. Maintenance tasks are things you can finish for now but that will come back.
I define 4 Statuses of tasks: Idea, Committed, Unfinished and Done.
I'll tentatively assume that the statuses' meanings are obvious.
I Budget time: I allot my future allowance of time into areas of my life I want to work on.
I use lists for 2 things:
1 - non tasks like groceries
2 - things that go in the budgeted time that I know I will do, not things I will reflect on doing. If things pile up higher then then what I can do in one sitting, then that becomes...
Time Dept: things you want to do but would rather do when the situation aligns itself to make it more (insert whatever: efficient, fun, etc...)
THAT is where my problem is.
I'll take the liberty to address a little something interesting Mike Brown talked about. I agree that Kanban really looks like mind mapping. But I actually started using it because it provides a very different tool. One is for organizing thoughts, the other is for organizing work flow. You can only really feel the difference if you actually use it. It's one of those things that is counter intuitive to look at and quite different in action from the inside.
Now far from me to try and push the dreaded "K" word on everyone. It is in fact because I'm slowly drifting away from my Kanban that I posted my first post. But there is some really valuable insight that I gained while using it. One is that the lead time to completion of work started gets disproportionally bigger the more stuff is "in process / unfinished": two things started take more time to finish then if you do them one at a time (and that's statistically proven). Second, the more time things need to finish, the more defects enter the finished product (again statistically proven and the curve is exponential!).
I also discovered that it is not your systems that enslaves you to a way of working but rather what you put in it. I recently had a whole lot of new inspiring projects drop on my lap. I was considering starting on them but looked at my system/list and saw that I should handle a few more "senior" tasks before I could seriously think about starting on those projects. This came from my engagement to those old tasks simply because I had passed so much time on them. Letting them go would mean trashing all the effort that went into them. Most of them would have been done a long time ago and would never have even reached puberty if I had given an all-out push at the time I was inspired by them and I could handle the new stuff easily.
When I attack a project, I have to fill my mental RAM if you will and then working on all those aspects at once is not really a problem. Loading that information in my RAM every time I browse my list really demotivates me to even consider it proper.
But let's go Back in Time ;)
A while back, I wrote about my problem with my engagement to time. I was always late and putting a new alarm on my watch would certainly not address the situation at it's roots. I then got rid of my watch only to find out that having no watch between me and time, I was able to see it raw! Before, I didn't give time the attention it deserved, I left that to my watch.
I had debts before and then I got rid of my credit card. It's soooo convenient to use that you would need a LOT of discipline not to use it. Well, it seems I don't need one after all. Finding new ways of doing things was hard at first but it's a non issue now. And guess what, I'm debt free because I can't even get debt: I have nothing people will use to grant me a loan!
Time credited, time full. No slack in the system to account for new more important things that come up. Heck no space to even search for the opportunities! All time management systems ultimately culminate at one point: do what is most important for you. If you don't have time to do something now, then it must invariably be less important then what you're doing now.
Anyways, I decided to attack my problem at the root and make sure I can't incur time debt. Bare in mind though that I budget time for maintenance using my kanban but a calendar would do the job just fine. I opened slack in my system and about once a week, I list all the stuff I want or should do and then I pick THE most important there and then throw the paper in the trash. The I go out and search for opportunities and attack them full-out.
Sorry for the wall of text :P
Hope it's somewhat intelligible...
Please post all your thought!
Then I sat back for a second and went: nice! :D
I noticed that the thread is addressing a wide variety of aspects of the question I rose and that there are more then a few questions directed to me specifically. I think that trying to answer to them individually won't help anyone so I'll take the liberty to make a wide open post and hope it covers most of the questions. I won't go much in the details so if I forgot stuff, please forgive me and do post your toughs again!
Even Field
Let me even the field of the talk a little bit.
All of this is, of course, only my personal observations.
I define 2 Types of tasks: Project and Maintenance.
Project tasks are things you have been inspired to do and that will be finished at one point. Maintenance tasks are things you can finish for now but that will come back.
I define 4 Statuses of tasks: Idea, Committed, Unfinished and Done.
I'll tentatively assume that the statuses' meanings are obvious.
I Budget time: I allot my future allowance of time into areas of my life I want to work on.
I use lists for 2 things:
1 - non tasks like groceries
2 - things that go in the budgeted time that I know I will do, not things I will reflect on doing. If things pile up higher then then what I can do in one sitting, then that becomes...
Time Dept: things you want to do but would rather do when the situation aligns itself to make it more (insert whatever: efficient, fun, etc...)
THAT is where my problem is.
I'll take the liberty to address a little something interesting Mike Brown talked about. I agree that Kanban really looks like mind mapping. But I actually started using it because it provides a very different tool. One is for organizing thoughts, the other is for organizing work flow. You can only really feel the difference if you actually use it. It's one of those things that is counter intuitive to look at and quite different in action from the inside.
Now far from me to try and push the dreaded "K" word on everyone. It is in fact because I'm slowly drifting away from my Kanban that I posted my first post. But there is some really valuable insight that I gained while using it. One is that the lead time to completion of work started gets disproportionally bigger the more stuff is "in process / unfinished": two things started take more time to finish then if you do them one at a time (and that's statistically proven). Second, the more time things need to finish, the more defects enter the finished product (again statistically proven and the curve is exponential!).
I also discovered that it is not your systems that enslaves you to a way of working but rather what you put in it. I recently had a whole lot of new inspiring projects drop on my lap. I was considering starting on them but looked at my system/list and saw that I should handle a few more "senior" tasks before I could seriously think about starting on those projects. This came from my engagement to those old tasks simply because I had passed so much time on them. Letting them go would mean trashing all the effort that went into them. Most of them would have been done a long time ago and would never have even reached puberty if I had given an all-out push at the time I was inspired by them and I could handle the new stuff easily.
When I attack a project, I have to fill my mental RAM if you will and then working on all those aspects at once is not really a problem. Loading that information in my RAM every time I browse my list really demotivates me to even consider it proper.
But let's go Back in Time ;)
A while back, I wrote about my problem with my engagement to time. I was always late and putting a new alarm on my watch would certainly not address the situation at it's roots. I then got rid of my watch only to find out that having no watch between me and time, I was able to see it raw! Before, I didn't give time the attention it deserved, I left that to my watch.
I had debts before and then I got rid of my credit card. It's soooo convenient to use that you would need a LOT of discipline not to use it. Well, it seems I don't need one after all. Finding new ways of doing things was hard at first but it's a non issue now. And guess what, I'm debt free because I can't even get debt: I have nothing people will use to grant me a loan!
Time credited, time full. No slack in the system to account for new more important things that come up. Heck no space to even search for the opportunities! All time management systems ultimately culminate at one point: do what is most important for you. If you don't have time to do something now, then it must invariably be less important then what you're doing now.
Anyways, I decided to attack my problem at the root and make sure I can't incur time debt. Bare in mind though that I budget time for maintenance using my kanban but a calendar would do the job just fine. I opened slack in my system and about once a week, I list all the stuff I want or should do and then I pick THE most important there and then throw the paper in the trash. The I go out and search for opportunities and attack them full-out.
Sorry for the wall of text :P
Hope it's somewhat intelligible...
Please post all your thought!
September 1, 2011 at 7:18 |
Erik
Erik
Nice wall! I can't possibly address every point and perspective related to your post Erik, so everyone else ought to take time to read it. Very thought provoking.
I will agree now that committing to a task is like incurring debt, especially if you start work and don't finish. There are few things more discouraging than a mound of unfinished projects, and this should be minimized, though I still don't consider a list of may-dos to be such.
It's often hard to decide to do a thing now, especially if energy levels or distraction suggest a different course. It's easier to pick a future time and do a thing then. Scheduled or otherwise precommitted.
Finally, few things are ever truly finished. Many things are cyclical. Projects to create new things also create new maintenance. To reduce pressure, you can reduce frequency of maintenance, or become more efficient, but better is to drop things entirely. Then you are truly done and have more time for the rest.
I will agree now that committing to a task is like incurring debt, especially if you start work and don't finish. There are few things more discouraging than a mound of unfinished projects, and this should be minimized, though I still don't consider a list of may-dos to be such.
It's often hard to decide to do a thing now, especially if energy levels or distraction suggest a different course. It's easier to pick a future time and do a thing then. Scheduled or otherwise precommitted.
Finally, few things are ever truly finished. Many things are cyclical. Projects to create new things also create new maintenance. To reduce pressure, you can reduce frequency of maintenance, or become more efficient, but better is to drop things entirely. Then you are truly done and have more time for the rest.
September 1, 2011 at 12:52 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Thanks for having read through ;)
Nice clim!
I like your comment on maintenance coming from done projects; it's exactly the way I see it develop AND I noticed that for the most part, you should try to be effective on projects and efficient on maintenance...
Food for thought :D
Nice clim!
I like your comment on maintenance coming from done projects; it's exactly the way I see it develop AND I noticed that for the most part, you should try to be effective on projects and efficient on maintenance...
Food for thought :D
September 1, 2011 at 13:35 |
Erik
Erik
By chance, I've been skimming Peter Walsh's book "It's All Too Much," a book about reducing the physical clutter and stuff in one's household. "Hoarding," as we call it nowadays. (Yes, I'm doing another purge of my crammed bookshelves.)
The conversation in this thread about lists becoming catch-alls for items that we can't bear to dismiss rhymes a bit with people's relationship to their cluttered households (saving children's drawings, hobby crafts cluttering work spaces, piles of unread magazines that someone thinks may hold something vitally important to one's life or business).
I remember some time-mgmt guru saying that "clutter is postponed decisions." When you decide you don't need all those magazines, and can throw them out, you create space for something new and more energetic to come in. (One of my coaches said that clutter equals trapped energy; remove the clutter and you welcome more energy into your life.)
When I look at my AF/SF lists, and I see the old stuff not marked through or highlighted, I feel that same pang as when I see all those William James books I bought 3 yrs ago yet have never read. I cared so much at the time! It would be great to read them! I could learn so much! I'm a better person for keeping those books on the shelves! I'll really get to it one day! There's a lot of trapped mental and emotional energy in those old AF items.
As you can tell, I do not have a worked-out theory here :) But I'm wondering if my lists are places where I hoard lots of good intentions from bygone days (even if they're from last week) that don't fit with where my life is today or where I want it to go tomorrow.
Great thread!
BTW, Walsh's recommendation for my William James books would be to pick the 3 I really really want to keep and get rid of the rest. For a stack of magazines, keep the 3 most recent, and so on. (The rule of 3 lives!)
The conversation in this thread about lists becoming catch-alls for items that we can't bear to dismiss rhymes a bit with people's relationship to their cluttered households (saving children's drawings, hobby crafts cluttering work spaces, piles of unread magazines that someone thinks may hold something vitally important to one's life or business).
I remember some time-mgmt guru saying that "clutter is postponed decisions." When you decide you don't need all those magazines, and can throw them out, you create space for something new and more energetic to come in. (One of my coaches said that clutter equals trapped energy; remove the clutter and you welcome more energy into your life.)
When I look at my AF/SF lists, and I see the old stuff not marked through or highlighted, I feel that same pang as when I see all those William James books I bought 3 yrs ago yet have never read. I cared so much at the time! It would be great to read them! I could learn so much! I'm a better person for keeping those books on the shelves! I'll really get to it one day! There's a lot of trapped mental and emotional energy in those old AF items.
As you can tell, I do not have a worked-out theory here :) But I'm wondering if my lists are places where I hoard lots of good intentions from bygone days (even if they're from last week) that don't fit with where my life is today or where I want it to go tomorrow.
Great thread!
BTW, Walsh's recommendation for my William James books would be to pick the 3 I really really want to keep and get rid of the rest. For a stack of magazines, keep the 3 most recent, and so on. (The rule of 3 lives!)
September 1, 2011 at 15:02 |
Mike Brown
Mike Brown
<<about lists becoming catch-alls for items that we can't bear to dismiss>>
Which is why I keep returning to DWM. I love the built-in expiry date. So even if I ignore my DWM list, things are happening i.e. expiring.
Which is why I keep returning to DWM. I love the built-in expiry date. So even if I ignore my DWM list, things are happening i.e. expiring.
September 1, 2011 at 15:43 |
avrum
avrum
Great thought Mike!
I definitely find I have nearly double energy now just doing stuff this way...
Who would have thought? Surely not me!
Did you ever tried a proper declutter method?
@Avrum: Yes, dismissing is key. DWM is really good for that!
But looking at it closer, I still find the little-often scheme let's you hoard a whole lot. That's where my problem is at least.
I definitely find I have nearly double energy now just doing stuff this way...
Who would have thought? Surely not me!
Did you ever tried a proper declutter method?
@Avrum: Yes, dismissing is key. DWM is really good for that!
But looking at it closer, I still find the little-often scheme let's you hoard a whole lot. That's where my problem is at least.
September 1, 2011 at 15:52 |
Erik
Erik
RE: matthewS
You described some of the very issues that brought me to this site in the first place. Since that is a separate topic, I will start a new thread instead of distracting from Erik's train of thought.
RE: Erik
You speak of four statuses for your tasks, but you mention that you don't put "ideas" on your list. Your list is only for the things that you are committing to and because of that, you can't dismiss stuff without feeling a personal loss. You later admit that "dismissing is key". I think both Seraphim and Alan Baljeu have both said in the past that learning how to dismiss is pure revelation.
Perhaps you might start putting ALL of those tasks-- even the "ideas"-- just to get in the practice of dismissing stuff. Throw some silly things on there that are easy to chunk, like "re-varnish dining room table" or "find new carpet for the office". Perhaps by practicing dismissal of these tasks, it will eventually start bleeding into dismissal of the "committed" tasks that really aren't that important and you won't feel such a personal pain about it.
This would have a second benefit, as well. (Well, *if* it works.) While putting *more* stuff on your list may seem like you're adding clutter, the goal is to train yourself to clean up the clutter. Hopefully, that leads to a less-cluttered work-load in the end. Just a thought....
I understand fully about your metaphor of "loading RAM". This makes me wonder if you're thinking too hard about the stuff on the list when you browse it. I realized yesterday that I had inadvertently been keeping two lists: one was a list of projects and the other was a list of tasks specific to one of those projects. Ironically, Mr. Mark has been telling us to do it this way all along. By doing that, though, I can see the project on my list without having to "load my RAM". Browsing your list should give you the opportunity to ask, "Am I ready to load my RAM for this project?" That keeps the list light and could possibly relieve that mental tension and exhaustion that you say you have with your list.
And by the way, I think I'm gonna make a little poster for myself that says:
"Effective projects. Efficient maintenance." - Erik
I hope this other view helps you out some!
You described some of the very issues that brought me to this site in the first place. Since that is a separate topic, I will start a new thread instead of distracting from Erik's train of thought.
RE: Erik
You speak of four statuses for your tasks, but you mention that you don't put "ideas" on your list. Your list is only for the things that you are committing to and because of that, you can't dismiss stuff without feeling a personal loss. You later admit that "dismissing is key". I think both Seraphim and Alan Baljeu have both said in the past that learning how to dismiss is pure revelation.
Perhaps you might start putting ALL of those tasks-- even the "ideas"-- just to get in the practice of dismissing stuff. Throw some silly things on there that are easy to chunk, like "re-varnish dining room table" or "find new carpet for the office". Perhaps by practicing dismissal of these tasks, it will eventually start bleeding into dismissal of the "committed" tasks that really aren't that important and you won't feel such a personal pain about it.
This would have a second benefit, as well. (Well, *if* it works.) While putting *more* stuff on your list may seem like you're adding clutter, the goal is to train yourself to clean up the clutter. Hopefully, that leads to a less-cluttered work-load in the end. Just a thought....
I understand fully about your metaphor of "loading RAM". This makes me wonder if you're thinking too hard about the stuff on the list when you browse it. I realized yesterday that I had inadvertently been keeping two lists: one was a list of projects and the other was a list of tasks specific to one of those projects. Ironically, Mr. Mark has been telling us to do it this way all along. By doing that, though, I can see the project on my list without having to "load my RAM". Browsing your list should give you the opportunity to ask, "Am I ready to load my RAM for this project?" That keeps the list light and could possibly relieve that mental tension and exhaustion that you say you have with your list.
And by the way, I think I'm gonna make a little poster for myself that says:
"Effective projects. Efficient maintenance." - Erik
I hope this other view helps you out some!
September 1, 2011 at 16:50 |
jFenter
jFenter
About the AF list, and and auxiliary lists.
Mark's scheme for AF was to make it practically fast, and so you only need think one thing at a time. So when something pops up, write on the AF list *without thinking* because you should keep focused on what you were already doing. Because of this, there can be no notion of commitment to these items, as commitment should only happen with thought. Nevertheless because keeping random stuff amounts to clutter and clutter should be minimized, I feel AF ought to do more to encourage aggressive deleting of stuff from the list.
An AF list contains 1) stuff you will do soon, 2) stuff you will do later, 3) stuff you might do, and 4) stuff you won't do. The last should be deleted with all haste. The first should always remain on the AF list.
The third I suggest be offloaded to separate lists. So you would now have a list or two of might-dos, with absolutely no obligation, intention, commitment or anything anywhere in that list. This isn't a todo list anymore. It's an IDEAS LIST. You could have a list of vacation spots. Next time you need a vacation, scan the list and choose one that appeals, and put that back in.
The second category, figure out why you'll do it but not soon. If it's date-driven, tickle-file it. If it follows something else, setup a rough PROJECT PLAN. Figure out what's the first thing(s) of that project and put that in AF. Take the others out.
By this scheme, AF consists of things you will DO SOON, and things you need to get out of the list ASAP. Get doing things you will do soon, and keep killing the laters, the mights, and the wont's. If you're aggressive enough, you should have a very short list of stuff you will do soon, and a few references to lists for alternative activities.
Food for thought, and thanks for the encouragement to do less....
Mark's scheme for AF was to make it practically fast, and so you only need think one thing at a time. So when something pops up, write on the AF list *without thinking* because you should keep focused on what you were already doing. Because of this, there can be no notion of commitment to these items, as commitment should only happen with thought. Nevertheless because keeping random stuff amounts to clutter and clutter should be minimized, I feel AF ought to do more to encourage aggressive deleting of stuff from the list.
An AF list contains 1) stuff you will do soon, 2) stuff you will do later, 3) stuff you might do, and 4) stuff you won't do. The last should be deleted with all haste. The first should always remain on the AF list.
The third I suggest be offloaded to separate lists. So you would now have a list or two of might-dos, with absolutely no obligation, intention, commitment or anything anywhere in that list. This isn't a todo list anymore. It's an IDEAS LIST. You could have a list of vacation spots. Next time you need a vacation, scan the list and choose one that appeals, and put that back in.
The second category, figure out why you'll do it but not soon. If it's date-driven, tickle-file it. If it follows something else, setup a rough PROJECT PLAN. Figure out what's the first thing(s) of that project and put that in AF. Take the others out.
By this scheme, AF consists of things you will DO SOON, and things you need to get out of the list ASAP. Get doing things you will do soon, and keep killing the laters, the mights, and the wont's. If you're aggressive enough, you should have a very short list of stuff you will do soon, and a few references to lists for alternative activities.
Food for thought, and thanks for the encouragement to do less....
September 1, 2011 at 18:49 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Erik:
<<I still find the little-often scheme let's you hoard a whole lot. That's where my problem is at least. >>
I understand "little and often" to be a suggestion, not a rule. There are times where it saves my a**.
On a side note, I'm having a very good day with DWM, Phocus (iphone app), and my Levenger Circa. If I can stick with this for 1+ weeks, I'll try an upload a sample of my pages (each page has two boxes/borders for a cartoon or sketch, and lines for my DWM lists). If this works, I'll have a really cool work/art journal.
<<I still find the little-often scheme let's you hoard a whole lot. That's where my problem is at least. >>
I understand "little and often" to be a suggestion, not a rule. There are times where it saves my a**.
On a side note, I'm having a very good day with DWM, Phocus (iphone app), and my Levenger Circa. If I can stick with this for 1+ weeks, I'll try an upload a sample of my pages (each page has two boxes/borders for a cartoon or sketch, and lines for my DWM lists). If this works, I'll have a really cool work/art journal.
September 1, 2011 at 19:40 |
avrum
avrum
@jFenter
Thank you very much for your suggestionsand trying to help me! You are totally right about dismissing being the key element to any healthy system. It's probably my fault for making it unclear but I do have ideas in my "system" somewhere it's just that their status is clearly knowable since they haven't entered the "stream of work" yet. The most outrageous ones are on my mind map ;) The others are waiting to be chosen with all the other new things brought up for my consideration. I always chose the most important one from that pool so they real baffles stay there for a while. If they stay there 2 weeks, they are out! The things I'm less inclined to dismiss is stuff that I started work on. Even if they are not important anymore, I'm feeling chained to the effort already done. These are my real stoppers... I think your on to the answer to my problem when you say that I need training. I'd add this though: on these little buggers.
As for the RAM, the last part of your post describes exactly what happens, the project name triggers the "Am I ready to load my RAM for this?" and most invariably, the answer is "NOOOOO wayyyyyy!!!". Hehe :P Maybe I'm just lazy...
Oh, and you have an eye for simplifying things. I really like how you crystalized what I said in a quote. I'll tweak minute details and say:
Effective Projects, Efficient Maintenance.
Now, you can actually "quote" me ;)
@Alan
Good stuff! Might I point to the Eizenhower method showing that there are often a LOT of urgent but unimportant things that crop up and that people "think" they should do first simply because they are urgent... We need to account for that right?
@Avrum
Touché! Good continuation ;)
Thank you very much for your suggestionsand trying to help me! You are totally right about dismissing being the key element to any healthy system. It's probably my fault for making it unclear but I do have ideas in my "system" somewhere it's just that their status is clearly knowable since they haven't entered the "stream of work" yet. The most outrageous ones are on my mind map ;) The others are waiting to be chosen with all the other new things brought up for my consideration. I always chose the most important one from that pool so they real baffles stay there for a while. If they stay there 2 weeks, they are out! The things I'm less inclined to dismiss is stuff that I started work on. Even if they are not important anymore, I'm feeling chained to the effort already done. These are my real stoppers... I think your on to the answer to my problem when you say that I need training. I'd add this though: on these little buggers.
As for the RAM, the last part of your post describes exactly what happens, the project name triggers the "Am I ready to load my RAM for this?" and most invariably, the answer is "NOOOOO wayyyyyy!!!". Hehe :P Maybe I'm just lazy...
Oh, and you have an eye for simplifying things. I really like how you crystalized what I said in a quote. I'll tweak minute details and say:
Effective Projects, Efficient Maintenance.
Now, you can actually "quote" me ;)
@Alan
Good stuff! Might I point to the Eizenhower method showing that there are often a LOT of urgent but unimportant things that crop up and that people "think" they should do first simply because they are urgent... We need to account for that right?
@Avrum
Touché! Good continuation ;)
September 2, 2011 at 0:15 |
Erik
Erik
This reminds me of feng shui. Clutter makes energy pool and stagnate.
Doing one thing, then another, really is more efficient, so long as long sessions work for that type of project.
If you have two projects that will each take 10 hours, you can do an hour on one then an hour on the other. If you keep alternating, you will finish one at 19 hours and one at 20. If you do one until it's done, you'll finish it at 10 hours and the next at 20.
My Someday/Maybe list (where I copy Dismissed items when the book is full, or even write them there first if I know I'll dismiss them soon) is, for me, a happy place. It's proof that I'll always have things that interest me. There's no pressure to do them. On the other hand, if the idea was good enough to write down, it's worth remembering when I have time for it.
Then there's the Should Do list. That one is a source of stress. I need to move more stuff from it to the Someday/Maybe list.
I'm trying a new method for my Little-And-Often things. These things can't be done all in one sitting, but have to be done in parts. I start that part of the day with the same thing. When it's done for the day, I go to the next. If I only have time for one, the same one always gets done. If I have time for two, the same two always get done. Occasionally, I'll get to the fifth. For the fifth one, I choose something that doesn't need to be worked on regularly. I stick to the order even if a project is stalled.
However, if something further down the list is calling strongly, or the one on top is making me avoid the entire list, or I'm at risk of missing a deadline for something mid-list, I accept that and do what makes sense at the time. If it continues, I change the priorities. I have several tasks that are like that. Zero to four stories to prepare for performing, but they only need daily practice if I'm still learning them. Shorthand, which really does benefit from regular study but isn't critical. Voice practice which varies with current piece and health.
The danger of changing priorities reminds me of a computer lab 30 years ago, back when you submitted your jobs to the central computer and it ran them overnight. One of the jobs was very long and very low priority. At the end of the month, the programmer was billed for several times his normal usage. Because the job's priority was so low, it would load and run for a few hours, then be stopped so a more important job could run, then restart from the beginning. This was before it was easy to store intermediate results. The solution was to choose a quiet time and set it for the highest priority. It got done.
Doing one thing, then another, really is more efficient, so long as long sessions work for that type of project.
If you have two projects that will each take 10 hours, you can do an hour on one then an hour on the other. If you keep alternating, you will finish one at 19 hours and one at 20. If you do one until it's done, you'll finish it at 10 hours and the next at 20.
My Someday/Maybe list (where I copy Dismissed items when the book is full, or even write them there first if I know I'll dismiss them soon) is, for me, a happy place. It's proof that I'll always have things that interest me. There's no pressure to do them. On the other hand, if the idea was good enough to write down, it's worth remembering when I have time for it.
Then there's the Should Do list. That one is a source of stress. I need to move more stuff from it to the Someday/Maybe list.
I'm trying a new method for my Little-And-Often things. These things can't be done all in one sitting, but have to be done in parts. I start that part of the day with the same thing. When it's done for the day, I go to the next. If I only have time for one, the same one always gets done. If I have time for two, the same two always get done. Occasionally, I'll get to the fifth. For the fifth one, I choose something that doesn't need to be worked on regularly. I stick to the order even if a project is stalled.
However, if something further down the list is calling strongly, or the one on top is making me avoid the entire list, or I'm at risk of missing a deadline for something mid-list, I accept that and do what makes sense at the time. If it continues, I change the priorities. I have several tasks that are like that. Zero to four stories to prepare for performing, but they only need daily practice if I'm still learning them. Shorthand, which really does benefit from regular study but isn't critical. Voice practice which varies with current piece and health.
The danger of changing priorities reminds me of a computer lab 30 years ago, back when you submitted your jobs to the central computer and it ran them overnight. One of the jobs was very long and very low priority. At the end of the month, the programmer was billed for several times his normal usage. Because the job's priority was so low, it would load and run for a few hours, then be stopped so a more important job could run, then restart from the beginning. This was before it was easy to store intermediate results. The solution was to choose a quiet time and set it for the highest priority. It got done.
September 2, 2011 at 0:35 |
Cricket
Cricket
I had to look up Eizenhower method. It's the basic urgent/important square. I wouldn't adjust my analysis above though except to say it's important to keep the important thing in mind. The stuff kept on the AF list (will do soons) ought to tilt in favour of important things, rather than urgency only.
September 2, 2011 at 2:58 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
RE Clutter and how AF handles it...
Going in, an item can be anything from an enterprise to a project to a task to an idea to a thought.
You don't find out whether it's clutter or not till after the system processes it.
The stuff that gets dismissed was the clutter.
Going in, an item can be anything from an enterprise to a project to a task to an idea to a thought.
You don't find out whether it's clutter or not till after the system processes it.
The stuff that gets dismissed was the clutter.
September 2, 2011 at 3:58 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
RE: Importance and Urgency
This is only my observation but important stuff tends to be the most difficult to tackle. Be it because it's a big decision or simply that it's not usual (maintenance) and you have to figure out how to do it, it's what stays in AF/SF. Now once you went through your stuff and are ready to dismiss a page, what's left is the clutter AND the most important stuff you have. The clutter you throw away and the important stuff you chew on to figure out how to tackle and re-enter.
While this is nice because the system takes care of defining what's important for you, the down side is that you start to really make progress on the important stuff on your second try at it. The window of opportunity for return on your effort investment usually gets much narrower. And what you did in the meanwhile is all the easy and urgent but usually the least important stuff.
That's what the little and often behavior tends to re-enforce. If this cycle is maintained, you are re-enforcing bad action choices. You are permanently in the "Urgent-Unimportant" which is the one to let go in order to:
1- Make sure it disappears in the long run
2- Work from a state of having time to tackle the most important.
Just ask yourself this for a second, what if...
You had your AF system with all the low-importance urgent stuff, and your pages ready for dismissal with important and clutter already in your hand. What would you do then? Which list / tasks would you handle first? If you would go to the dismissal page and get rid of all the clutter and start on your really important stuff, then to get to that, you are living your life in the other list right now. I don't want to be there.
It's probably just my my personal usage of AF/SF and any other list for that matter but this for me, this is only busy work. If I compare two tasks, the one that's the least appealing is usually the most important one, but there is a nice easy one next to it... I'm really gonna go for the easiest one, invariably. Better I don't get tempted and the best way to do that is to address the problem at the sources: better not even consider those cakes and cookies ;)
This is only my observation but important stuff tends to be the most difficult to tackle. Be it because it's a big decision or simply that it's not usual (maintenance) and you have to figure out how to do it, it's what stays in AF/SF. Now once you went through your stuff and are ready to dismiss a page, what's left is the clutter AND the most important stuff you have. The clutter you throw away and the important stuff you chew on to figure out how to tackle and re-enter.
While this is nice because the system takes care of defining what's important for you, the down side is that you start to really make progress on the important stuff on your second try at it. The window of opportunity for return on your effort investment usually gets much narrower. And what you did in the meanwhile is all the easy and urgent but usually the least important stuff.
That's what the little and often behavior tends to re-enforce. If this cycle is maintained, you are re-enforcing bad action choices. You are permanently in the "Urgent-Unimportant" which is the one to let go in order to:
1- Make sure it disappears in the long run
2- Work from a state of having time to tackle the most important.
Just ask yourself this for a second, what if...
You had your AF system with all the low-importance urgent stuff, and your pages ready for dismissal with important and clutter already in your hand. What would you do then? Which list / tasks would you handle first? If you would go to the dismissal page and get rid of all the clutter and start on your really important stuff, then to get to that, you are living your life in the other list right now. I don't want to be there.
It's probably just my my personal usage of AF/SF and any other list for that matter but this for me, this is only busy work. If I compare two tasks, the one that's the least appealing is usually the most important one, but there is a nice easy one next to it... I'm really gonna go for the easiest one, invariably. Better I don't get tempted and the best way to do that is to address the problem at the sources: better not even consider those cakes and cookies ;)
September 2, 2011 at 5:18 |
Erik
Erik
Most of the regular people here know me as the no list guy. I wish to again take the time to say that I have no intention of being disagreeable, rebellious or subversive :P I understand that everything means something different to everybody and I don't want to impose my views. I do wish on the other hand to expose my views and if they serve you in any way, shape or form (even affirming your beliefs by not agreeing with me) then my purpose is served.
On to topic!
I've always said that I believe lists to be to time what credit cards are to money. If you can't pay for something now, you can always use your credit card but you WILL have to pay it later. This means that you have to be mindful of what you put on the card and if you are capable of settling your debt.
If you don't have the time to do something now, you can always put it on a list but you WILL have to do it later. Now, I understand that lists can be used for deliberating if you really want or need to do something as a kind of buffer but as a favor, I'd ask that we leave that out of the discussion this time.
I am someone that really goes for completion; I like to finish things. That's why little and often doesn't work for me for projects (not maintenance). When I put something on a list, I get what most people seem relieved from and that is stress. I know there's stuff unfinished there and that I'll have to do it later and it's putting much pressure on my mind and prohibits me from really relaxing when I want to unwind.
But more then that, I found that I really procrastinated on the things that are on lists... Why's that? I mean, if I can't bare having stuff on the list, why can't I do the stuff I took the engagement to do? I recently found that when I put something on a list, I've actually given myself a "task done" reward. That thing I should do is processed, decided and stored. I'm done with it! When I see it again in the future, I go "Haven't I dealt with you already?" and don't feel the need to complete it or even worst, disgusted by how hard it is to scrape it out of my life for good.
I may be the only one, but I'm ready to bet that a lot of people feel the same and that is why, whatever we do to make the "system" more appealing, streamlined or otherwise entertaIning, it always comes down to what's in the list: stuff you bought on credit and have to repay. Wou already profited from it and now you have to pay the consequences...
What's your take on this?
Please show me where I'm missing the boat...