Discussion Forum > Three months of Serial No-List
Hi Seraphim, I'm enjoying your comments on using Serial No-List. I'm using it too for the Lenten challenge. I'm about to post on Mark's blog about how I'm doing.
April 8, 2019 at 13:01 |
Margaret1
Margaret1
Hi Seraphim,
I am inspired to practice using the serial no list. I really like the simple idea of using the left page for a fresh daily list and the ability then to add general notes within the notebook i.e. tasks and notes into one notebook. Do you have a method for marking the most recent page, e.g. a bookmark? I tend to tab out the top corner of pages when using notebooks without a ribbon page marker ( e.g. a moleskine).
I am inspired to practice using the serial no list. I really like the simple idea of using the left page for a fresh daily list and the ability then to add general notes within the notebook i.e. tasks and notes into one notebook. Do you have a method for marking the most recent page, e.g. a bookmark? I tend to tab out the top corner of pages when using notebooks without a ribbon page marker ( e.g. a moleskine).
April 11, 2019 at 19:15 |
Leon
Leon
Leon - Glad to hear you are thinking of giving it a try!
I've tried a few different ways to keep track of the last page. They are all rather mundane. :-)
Sometimes I just clip my pen on that last page. But sometimes it annoys me that the pen is sticking out at the top and doesn't fit well in my pocket.
Sometimes I just use the rubber-band thing that goes around the notebook (it's a standard soft-cover "large" Moleskine (5.11" x 8.27"). But sometimes that bothers me from writing on the right-side page.
Sometimes I use the little ribbon that the Moleskine book has.
I've also used a little sticky note, or sticky tab (like these http://www.amazon.com/Post-Writable-Repositionable-Dispenser-686-ALOPRYT/dp/B00NPCD8MW ), but since I start a new spread every day, it gets a little annoying to move it so often.
So in the end, I don't really pay much attention, and just flip open to the last page.
When I am at my desk, I just keep it open all the time to that last page. I spend almost all my time there. When I go back through the older pages, it's usually a short jaunt of 5 to 15 minutes, and then I am back to the last page where I spend the next few hours.
Sorry -- my answer has probably one of the worst value-to-word-count ratios imaginable! LOL
I've tried a few different ways to keep track of the last page. They are all rather mundane. :-)
Sometimes I just clip my pen on that last page. But sometimes it annoys me that the pen is sticking out at the top and doesn't fit well in my pocket.
Sometimes I just use the rubber-band thing that goes around the notebook (it's a standard soft-cover "large" Moleskine (5.11" x 8.27"). But sometimes that bothers me from writing on the right-side page.
Sometimes I use the little ribbon that the Moleskine book has.
I've also used a little sticky note, or sticky tab (like these http://www.amazon.com/Post-Writable-Repositionable-Dispenser-686-ALOPRYT/dp/B00NPCD8MW ), but since I start a new spread every day, it gets a little annoying to move it so often.
So in the end, I don't really pay much attention, and just flip open to the last page.
When I am at my desk, I just keep it open all the time to that last page. I spend almost all my time there. When I go back through the older pages, it's usually a short jaunt of 5 to 15 minutes, and then I am back to the last page where I spend the next few hours.
Sorry -- my answer has probably one of the worst value-to-word-count ratios imaginable! LOL
April 12, 2019 at 5:35 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Thanks Seraphim, plenty of detail in there, similar to stuff I've thought of too!
April 12, 2019 at 8:48 |
leon
leon
This past month I was trying this following the rule of "write before do". But Seraphim differed by often doing things unwritten, so now I shall try that.
1. At the beginning of the day, write some things on today's list.
2. If I know what to do next, do it.
3. If I don't know what to do next, look at today's list.
4. If I still don't know, look back through previous days' lists.
5. During the day, if an idea comes in that I want to remember to do, write it on today's list.
1. At the beginning of the day, write some things on today's list.
2. If I know what to do next, do it.
3. If I don't know what to do next, look at today's list.
4. If I still don't know, look back through previous days' lists.
5. During the day, if an idea comes in that I want to remember to do, write it on today's list.
April 14, 2019 at 23:28 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Alan - great! Glad you are giving it another try! Let us know how it goes.
Your addenda here seem to describe what I normally do, but I am hesitant to encode it in a list of rules like that. Perhaps that is just my own peculiar foible. I want to feel free to go "off list" whenever I want. If that makes me feel somewhat aimless, or I start to drift, then I go back to the list. In the long run, this approach helps me develop a better feel of when to go off list, and when to stick to the list.
If I don't have that freedom, then I am afraid that the rules will eventually conflict with what I intuitively know needs to be done -- and that will make me start to resist the system.
Your addenda here seem to describe what I normally do, but I am hesitant to encode it in a list of rules like that. Perhaps that is just my own peculiar foible. I want to feel free to go "off list" whenever I want. If that makes me feel somewhat aimless, or I start to drift, then I go back to the list. In the long run, this approach helps me develop a better feel of when to go off list, and when to stick to the list.
If I don't have that freedom, then I am afraid that the rules will eventually conflict with what I intuitively know needs to be done -- and that will make me start to resist the system.
April 15, 2019 at 0:53 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
> If that makes me feel somewhat aimless, or I start to drift, then I go back to the list.
I'm struggling with listlessness. If I am not anchored to the list, I will tend to be aimless, tend to drift, and tend not to think of the list at all such that I don't notice these problems and don't go back to the list. How does this work for you?
I'm struggling with listlessness. If I am not anchored to the list, I will tend to be aimless, tend to drift, and tend not to think of the list at all such that I don't notice these problems and don't go back to the list. How does this work for you?
April 18, 2019 at 0:56 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
When that happens to me, I just lean more heavily on the list. It helps me stay grounded, focused, intuitive, engaged. It helps especially when I am tired, or overwhelmed, or just generally when my intuition doesn't seem to be working on its own.
I guess it only really works if one has already developed the habit of using the notebook as your constant companion. I always keep it nearby, often in my front pocket, even when I'm not actively using it. So if I was finding I was not ever pulling out the list or thinking about it at all, and I found this state of things wasn't working for me, then I suppose it would be a good time to start working from the list all the time, as much as feasible, till I got the habit re-established.
But I am not sure if that really answers your question.
I guess it only really works if one has already developed the habit of using the notebook as your constant companion. I always keep it nearby, often in my front pocket, even when I'm not actively using it. So if I was finding I was not ever pulling out the list or thinking about it at all, and I found this state of things wasn't working for me, then I suppose it would be a good time to start working from the list all the time, as much as feasible, till I got the habit re-established.
But I am not sure if that really answers your question.
April 18, 2019 at 6:45 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
I'm one month into Serial No-list now, and I'm mostly positivie about it. Whenever I manage to stick to the system, it works fine, I get a lot done and I feel I'm working on the right stuff. But occassionally, the number of old unfinished pages tend to overwhelm me, especially if there's the occassional forgotten but still important task that I'm hesitating to work on. Your post reminds me that just writing down my thoughts usually helps to overcome that hesitation or overwhelm, thanks for the reminder!
April 18, 2019 at 10:04 |
Nicole
Nicole
Seraphim, my attempt at summarizing that: If I find I am forgetting the list, that's the time to shift into focusing on the list.
April 18, 2019 at 13:58 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Nicole - yes, I think the lingering pages are the biggest weakness of Serial No-List. When I first started experimenting with it, I was guessing this would be the thing that would cause it to fail. It turned out to be less of a problem than I thought - but it’s still a problem.
There are some other problems with SNL - or perhaps I should say, there are some things that other systems do a lot better.
For example, I’ve been thinking about DIT and AF1 a lot lately. There is something really special about each of those systems.
For DIT - I haven’t ever found another system that gives such a pleasant sense of completion, closure, cadence, and being on top of my work as does DIT. But I also could never keep it up for more than a few weeks at a time. Eventually I’d just keep falling behind, and the Audit of Commitments process wasn’t really helping much.
For AF1 - I haven’t found another system that has such a wonderful sense of focus, flow, and engagement, or that is so good at breaking long-standing walls of resistance. But it tended to generate lots of excursions into side projects and ideas. And the growing number of tasks would eventually cause the system to go too slow. And that led to problems dealing with urgent tasks.
I’m wondering if there is any way to improve SNL to get more of the benefits of DIT and AF1, while still preserving the complete freedom and ease of use.
I’m guessing there are some fundamental conflicts involved. DIT is optimized for completion, and AF1 for intuition - and those two things often seem to be in conflict. Maybe there is some way to resolve the conflict?
There are some other problems with SNL - or perhaps I should say, there are some things that other systems do a lot better.
For example, I’ve been thinking about DIT and AF1 a lot lately. There is something really special about each of those systems.
For DIT - I haven’t ever found another system that gives such a pleasant sense of completion, closure, cadence, and being on top of my work as does DIT. But I also could never keep it up for more than a few weeks at a time. Eventually I’d just keep falling behind, and the Audit of Commitments process wasn’t really helping much.
For AF1 - I haven’t found another system that has such a wonderful sense of focus, flow, and engagement, or that is so good at breaking long-standing walls of resistance. But it tended to generate lots of excursions into side projects and ideas. And the growing number of tasks would eventually cause the system to go too slow. And that led to problems dealing with urgent tasks.
I’m wondering if there is any way to improve SNL to get more of the benefits of DIT and AF1, while still preserving the complete freedom and ease of use.
I’m guessing there are some fundamental conflicts involved. DIT is optimized for completion, and AF1 for intuition - and those two things often seem to be in conflict. Maybe there is some way to resolve the conflict?
April 18, 2019 at 21:03 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Nicole - also, I wanted to ask - could you describe some more how it is that the lingering pages generate that sense of overwhelm? And what additional problems does this cause? I’d like to understand the dynamics better.
For me, the lingering pages can be bothersome, and sometimes distracting, but don’t generally make me feel overwhelmed. They cause problems for me in other ways:
1- Nothing on today’s page stands out, so, following the rules, I start scanning backwards through the older pages. Several of the older items stand out - and after awhile, I start to feel today’s stuff pulling at me again. But there are still lots of older things catching my attention. This creates a sense of conflict - should I catch up on my backlog, or move forward with today’s pressing tasks? The conflict starts to diffuse my sense of focus - and I can’t get a clear picture what to do. When that happens, I continue scanning through all the older pages, but if anything stands out, I just copy them to today’s page. Then, I can see all the most pressing things in one place, and this helps re-establish focus.
2- There are plenty of things on today’s page that stand out, but I keep worrying I am forgetting something important from the older pages. When that happens, I follow the same process - do a quick scan of the older items, and copy the ones that stand out, to the current page.
3- I have some downtime, and am just reading through old pages. I cross out a lot of stuff that’s already done, or no longer relevant. It’s kind of relaxing. But sometimes I do start feeling a little overwhelmed if there are a lot of open items - “oh yeah, I forgot about that! And oh no, I really need to get THAT done, too!” Etc. But usually the same remedy works in this case, too. I copy forward the things that really stand out. But also, I copy forward lingering items that will help me close out a page. This has a surprising effect. It feels really good to close out those pages. So I start closing out more and more of them. And this has another effect: my threshold for what items to keep starts to go up. I find myself deleting them instead of copying them forward. I can clear out a lot of old stuff this way.
Maybe there is some way to integrate that dynamic more systemically into the process?
For me, the lingering pages can be bothersome, and sometimes distracting, but don’t generally make me feel overwhelmed. They cause problems for me in other ways:
1- Nothing on today’s page stands out, so, following the rules, I start scanning backwards through the older pages. Several of the older items stand out - and after awhile, I start to feel today’s stuff pulling at me again. But there are still lots of older things catching my attention. This creates a sense of conflict - should I catch up on my backlog, or move forward with today’s pressing tasks? The conflict starts to diffuse my sense of focus - and I can’t get a clear picture what to do. When that happens, I continue scanning through all the older pages, but if anything stands out, I just copy them to today’s page. Then, I can see all the most pressing things in one place, and this helps re-establish focus.
2- There are plenty of things on today’s page that stand out, but I keep worrying I am forgetting something important from the older pages. When that happens, I follow the same process - do a quick scan of the older items, and copy the ones that stand out, to the current page.
3- I have some downtime, and am just reading through old pages. I cross out a lot of stuff that’s already done, or no longer relevant. It’s kind of relaxing. But sometimes I do start feeling a little overwhelmed if there are a lot of open items - “oh yeah, I forgot about that! And oh no, I really need to get THAT done, too!” Etc. But usually the same remedy works in this case, too. I copy forward the things that really stand out. But also, I copy forward lingering items that will help me close out a page. This has a surprising effect. It feels really good to close out those pages. So I start closing out more and more of them. And this has another effect: my threshold for what items to keep starts to go up. I find myself deleting them instead of copying them forward. I can clear out a lot of old stuff this way.
Maybe there is some way to integrate that dynamic more systemically into the process?
April 18, 2019 at 21:35 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Now that I'm done with the challenge I've been listening to the GTD audiobook again just for kicks. There was one part that I heard yesterday that is similar to, but not exactly like, what you are doing:
David Allen: "...there's absolutely nothing wrong with creating a quick, informal, short list of 'if I have time, I'd really like to...' kinds of things, picked from your Next Actions inventory. It just should not be confused with your 'have-tos," and it should be treated lightly enough to discard or change quickly as the inevitable surprises of the day unfold."
I think instead of picking from Next Action inventory, you are picking first from your mental inventory to start the day, then reverting back to your written inventory as needed.
Doing the simple scanning was very interesting for me. I've definitely noticed that there is no one perfect system out there, but that each has its strengths and weaknesses. GTD is a good system with many strengths, but it has some weaknesses that has led me to look to see if a better system exists (hence my lurking on this site). Simple Scanning has many strengths, but still has some weaknesses to.
One thing I keep waffling back and forth on whether it is beneficial is to have a separate projects list, and make my long list reflect the next action or actions (plural). I know that Mark has stated in the past something along the lines of not wanting to put down just a next action because it can be too constrictive. I think that David Allen writes at least one next action for all the moving parts of the projects that can be acted on (i.e. aren't dependent on other components being completed first), but that one project can generate multiple "next actions" for one's long list. Where I've noticed a weakness is where I have larger projects listed in my long list, and I don't really move on them because I often don't specify what to do next and where to do it. My mind quickly skips over it because I haven't fleshed it out sufficiently. I don't think this is the case for every project, but the ones that stick seem to have some more specific action that I avoid.
But then I also feel like seeing the "outcome" or "final product" reminder can be much more effective at spurring me to action than a simple next action. It also allows for quite a bit of freedom to follow whatever action within that project I'd like in the moment, which can differ quite a bit sometimes than the predefined "next action(s)" I wrote down from one week ago.
What have you all found more valuable? Granular tasks, or broad projects, to get the stuck items moving on your lists? The underlying hypothesis is that one versus the other makes things "stand out" differently.
David Allen: "...there's absolutely nothing wrong with creating a quick, informal, short list of 'if I have time, I'd really like to...' kinds of things, picked from your Next Actions inventory. It just should not be confused with your 'have-tos," and it should be treated lightly enough to discard or change quickly as the inevitable surprises of the day unfold."
I think instead of picking from Next Action inventory, you are picking first from your mental inventory to start the day, then reverting back to your written inventory as needed.
Doing the simple scanning was very interesting for me. I've definitely noticed that there is no one perfect system out there, but that each has its strengths and weaknesses. GTD is a good system with many strengths, but it has some weaknesses that has led me to look to see if a better system exists (hence my lurking on this site). Simple Scanning has many strengths, but still has some weaknesses to.
One thing I keep waffling back and forth on whether it is beneficial is to have a separate projects list, and make my long list reflect the next action or actions (plural). I know that Mark has stated in the past something along the lines of not wanting to put down just a next action because it can be too constrictive. I think that David Allen writes at least one next action for all the moving parts of the projects that can be acted on (i.e. aren't dependent on other components being completed first), but that one project can generate multiple "next actions" for one's long list. Where I've noticed a weakness is where I have larger projects listed in my long list, and I don't really move on them because I often don't specify what to do next and where to do it. My mind quickly skips over it because I haven't fleshed it out sufficiently. I don't think this is the case for every project, but the ones that stick seem to have some more specific action that I avoid.
But then I also feel like seeing the "outcome" or "final product" reminder can be much more effective at spurring me to action than a simple next action. It also allows for quite a bit of freedom to follow whatever action within that project I'd like in the moment, which can differ quite a bit sometimes than the predefined "next action(s)" I wrote down from one week ago.
What have you all found more valuable? Granular tasks, or broad projects, to get the stuck items moving on your lists? The underlying hypothesis is that one versus the other makes things "stand out" differently.
April 18, 2019 at 21:56 |
Cameron
Cameron
I’ve settled on Project - Next Objective as my simple list item. The details of the project including various tasks and goals are in another place entirely. When I get to working Project - Objective, the list goes away and I work whatever from the other document.
April 18, 2019 at 22:40 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
That is something I've started doing too Alan, at least with the separate project details being somewhere else. I just keep a list of tasks related to the project in my reference material that I can refer to when needed.
Maybe I'm thinking like something more along the lines of a next action on Project X being "talk to my wife about Y". I would have many opportunities to talk to her about it, say, over dinner, but fail to do so because I don't scan my entire list before dinner so that I can pick 2 or 3 things to talk to her about. Maybe I'm thinking more along the lines of "contexts" per GTD lingo. I don't think contexts are all they're cracked up to be, but there are several instances where they are nice.
Maybe I'm thinking like something more along the lines of a next action on Project X being "talk to my wife about Y". I would have many opportunities to talk to her about it, say, over dinner, but fail to do so because I don't scan my entire list before dinner so that I can pick 2 or 3 things to talk to her about. Maybe I'm thinking more along the lines of "contexts" per GTD lingo. I don't think contexts are all they're cracked up to be, but there are several instances where they are nice.
April 19, 2019 at 0:03 |
Cameron
Cameron
I just write whatever comes to mind. But if I find an item keeps showing up on my list and isn’t progressing, I try to break it up into smaller tasks.
Hm, I guess that’s similar to my overall approach:
- If I am not progressing in general, I write more on my list.
- If I am not progressing on a particular item, I break it down into smaller items and write them all on the list.
Maybe there is a common thread - making the tasks more visible, concrete, and actionable, makes them easier to get done. But I am afraid of making this a general rule, an a priori requirement, as David Allen does. That feels like too much overhead, and too restrictive; and too much detail can obscure the larger objectives.
With long-list systems, I would often use Alan’s method; otherwise, it would be too easy to lose the context for the smaller task. This doesn’t seem to be an issue with SNL - it’s usually pretty easy to see the context.
Hm, I guess that’s similar to my overall approach:
- If I am not progressing in general, I write more on my list.
- If I am not progressing on a particular item, I break it down into smaller items and write them all on the list.
Maybe there is a common thread - making the tasks more visible, concrete, and actionable, makes them easier to get done. But I am afraid of making this a general rule, an a priori requirement, as David Allen does. That feels like too much overhead, and too restrictive; and too much detail can obscure the larger objectives.
With long-list systems, I would often use Alan’s method; otherwise, it would be too easy to lose the context for the smaller task. This doesn’t seem to be an issue with SNL - it’s usually pretty easy to see the context.
April 19, 2019 at 4:00 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Seraphim,
interesting thoughts about the pros and cons of SNL versus DIT and AF1. Like you, I have always been very impressed with DIT and AF1, I think mainly because of the sense of completion it gives. That could be due to the fact I'm quite the perfectionist ;-).
About your question about why lingering pages cause overwhelm: I think it has mainly to do with the fact that I tend to overcommit myself. At some point that overcommitment will result in that I don't even want to think about my commitments, I just try to ignore them. But when writing today's list I know that there's old stuff that maybe can't be ignored much longer, and that's a trigger for reviewing the older pages. I guess that would be your option 2. And then in reviewing these older pages I come across much more important stuff than I remembered, therefore the sense of overwhelm.
It probably has to do with wanting to complete everything on the list, and not wanting to dismiss stuff. Although I am getting better at dismissing, and SNL does help with that: if it's on an old page it's a bit easier to admit that I'm not going to do it anymore, or any time soon.
interesting thoughts about the pros and cons of SNL versus DIT and AF1. Like you, I have always been very impressed with DIT and AF1, I think mainly because of the sense of completion it gives. That could be due to the fact I'm quite the perfectionist ;-).
About your question about why lingering pages cause overwhelm: I think it has mainly to do with the fact that I tend to overcommit myself. At some point that overcommitment will result in that I don't even want to think about my commitments, I just try to ignore them. But when writing today's list I know that there's old stuff that maybe can't be ignored much longer, and that's a trigger for reviewing the older pages. I guess that would be your option 2. And then in reviewing these older pages I come across much more important stuff than I remembered, therefore the sense of overwhelm.
It probably has to do with wanting to complete everything on the list, and not wanting to dismiss stuff. Although I am getting better at dismissing, and SNL does help with that: if it's on an old page it's a bit easier to admit that I'm not going to do it anymore, or any time soon.
April 21, 2019 at 14:47 |
Nicole
Nicole
But honestly, the biggest news is that there isn't much to say! It's basically just working. It is so easy to keep it going.
Sometimes I get caught up in the craziness of the day -- jumping between email and meetings -- and switching back to my notebook just always helps me stay grounded and focused. There aren't any rules to keep track of -- I just start writing down whatever is on my mind, whatever tasks have come up in the emails or meetings, etc. And then proceed. It's easy and it works.
It's also worked out really well to use the same notebook for my Serial No-List and for general notes, sketches, ideas, etc. For odds and ends (like shopping lists or a quick meeting agenda), I just find an old page with a block of unused space. But for anything larger, I just open to a new blank left-hand page right after my current Serial No-List page, date the page and start writing.
As I flip back through the book, the No-List tasks and the general notes provide a lot of useful context for each other. And it's so nice having it all in one notebook.
Also, as I wrote some time back, there are times when other old pages can hang around for quite a while.
http://markforster.squarespace.com/forum/post/2734131
-- but when this happens, it really hasn't been a problem at all. It usually just means I've had a lot of craziness to deal with, and I'll catch up later when I have some breathing room. Usually the catch-up involves copying forward 10-15 active tasks to my current No-List page, and then closing out a bunch of old pages. It's nice to see them all in one place, reduces page-flipping, and makes the "standing out" process work better. At first, I was hesitant to copy anything forward like that - it seems counter-intuitive based on experience with DIT, AF, FVP, Simple Scanning, etc. But in practice it has worked just fine. Those tasks get done pretty quickly. There hasn't been any need to try to make the system put pressure on them.
Anyway, that's about it.
Is anyone else still using Serial No-List? What has your experience been like?