Discussion Forum > The best system is "no system"
I listened to this. I did not understand everything in it. I did see the 43 folders website years ago, and yes it did promote David Allen's GTD quite heavily.
I am sure that Cal Newport has many valuable tips. However, he is likely not typical of many people, maybe most people. He seems to be extremely bright, and can probably do math calculations in his head, and much of his work he can do in his head. He admits that as a professor he is able to take time off during the summer. He also seems to be driven. He is fortunate. And he seems to be giving advice based on his own experience to many, which maybe he is able to do, but would be impractical for others. Such as quit social media, go on a digital detox, timeblock every minute of your day. But he is doing podcasts, and writing books, and has a blog, and mostly likely is thinking about computers a lot considering he is computer science professor. So he might be able to afford doing these things. Perhaps his advice is good for those that are like him, but might be bad for others. So I am reluctant to hear him more, because he seems to be saying Do as I do because it works for me.
I listened to some of Merlin Mann's podcast Do By Friday, and he seems to be talking religion and joking about it, and it doesn't seem to have much structure. So yes maybe he can go in without much of a system.
I do think the Autofocus-like methods and No-list methods are easier to implement, and tailor to one's own situation, and can easily drop if it doesn't work. Some people do need a system, like adminstrative assistants, teachers. Other people do need to do more, such as the ones that David Parker addresses in his book on doing one thing at a time. And others need to do more whether the quality is good or not. Cal Newport seems to give a lot of advice, which seems absolute and extreme, and applies to a certain type of worker.
I am sure that Cal Newport has many valuable tips. However, he is likely not typical of many people, maybe most people. He seems to be extremely bright, and can probably do math calculations in his head, and much of his work he can do in his head. He admits that as a professor he is able to take time off during the summer. He also seems to be driven. He is fortunate. And he seems to be giving advice based on his own experience to many, which maybe he is able to do, but would be impractical for others. Such as quit social media, go on a digital detox, timeblock every minute of your day. But he is doing podcasts, and writing books, and has a blog, and mostly likely is thinking about computers a lot considering he is computer science professor. So he might be able to afford doing these things. Perhaps his advice is good for those that are like him, but might be bad for others. So I am reluctant to hear him more, because he seems to be saying Do as I do because it works for me.
I listened to some of Merlin Mann's podcast Do By Friday, and he seems to be talking religion and joking about it, and it doesn't seem to have much structure. So yes maybe he can go in without much of a system.
I do think the Autofocus-like methods and No-list methods are easier to implement, and tailor to one's own situation, and can easily drop if it doesn't work. Some people do need a system, like adminstrative assistants, teachers. Other people do need to do more, such as the ones that David Parker addresses in his book on doing one thing at a time. And others need to do more whether the quality is good or not. Cal Newport seems to give a lot of advice, which seems absolute and extreme, and applies to a certain type of worker.
September 6, 2023 at 4:40 |
Mark H.
Mark H.
Mark H.
<<And he seems to be giving advice based on his own experience to many,>>
Hence the insufferable part. Almost all of my professors - Business and Social Work - had the chutzpah to assume the world should think/act like I do. Not based on their experience per se (most of my professors had limited out-in-the-street experience), but in how their brains work.
Say what you want about David Allen - but the guy went from shooting heroin, to building the most well known productivity consulting agency (other than Franklin Covey). I think there's something in that type of background (and acquired knowledge) worth listening to.
<<And he seems to be giving advice based on his own experience to many,>>
Hence the insufferable part. Almost all of my professors - Business and Social Work - had the chutzpah to assume the world should think/act like I do. Not based on their experience per se (most of my professors had limited out-in-the-street experience), but in how their brains work.
Say what you want about David Allen - but the guy went from shooting heroin, to building the most well known productivity consulting agency (other than Franklin Covey). I think there's something in that type of background (and acquired knowledge) worth listening to.
September 6, 2023 at 12:32 |
avrum
avrum
I read over again this morning what I wrote late last night about Cal Newport and thought that maybe I was being unfair to him. So I took out my copy of his book "Deep Work" and looked at it.
There is a chapter entitled "Rule #3: Quit Social Media".
On page 209, there is a heading "Don't Use the Internet to Entertain Yourself."
On page 221, there is a heading "Schedule Every Minute of Your Day."
On page 236, there is a heading "Finish Your Work by Five Thirty."
On page 242, there is a heading "Become Hard to Reach."
Regarding answering emails, there is a heading on page 253, "Tip #3: Don't Respond."
But -
on page 142, there is heading "Be Lazy."
On page 155, there is a chapter heading "Rule #2:Embrace Boredom".
On page 174, there is a heading "Memorize a Deck of Cards."
On page 232, there is a heading "Ask Your Boss for a Shallow Work Budget." (I've never tried that before, but I can't think of any boss I have ever worked for who would have liked that question. I could picture a boss giving me more shallow work, or reducing my financial budget, or paying me less. )
Especially on the scheduling, he is very flexible and loose on how he defines every minute of the day. He advocates time blocking. So one can time block lunch or recreational breaks. The minimum he recommends for a block is 30 minutes.
He addresses the criticism that this might become "burdensomely restrictive", "unhealthy", "obsessive", "minute-counting". He quotes from a blog post that brings up "the role of uncertainty" and the value of "getting-lost-in-activities, which if we're talking about artists is often the only really sensible course of action." He says that "On some days, you might rewrite your schedule half a dozen times." He admits that if he stumbles on a important insight, "then this is a perfectly valid reason to ignore the rest of my schedule for the day." He regularly schedules "significant blocks of time for speculative thinking and discussion." I saw on his website that he will schedule a thinking day.
In the book, he discusses several methods of deep work scheduling. I found this section interesting for the different lifestyles that people have: monastic, bimodal, rhythmic.
By the way, Avrum, on page 110, he suggests the chain method that Jerry Seinfeld uses to write jokes every day, and not break the chain.
There is a chapter entitled "Rule #3: Quit Social Media".
On page 209, there is a heading "Don't Use the Internet to Entertain Yourself."
On page 221, there is a heading "Schedule Every Minute of Your Day."
On page 236, there is a heading "Finish Your Work by Five Thirty."
On page 242, there is a heading "Become Hard to Reach."
Regarding answering emails, there is a heading on page 253, "Tip #3: Don't Respond."
But -
on page 142, there is heading "Be Lazy."
On page 155, there is a chapter heading "Rule #2:Embrace Boredom".
On page 174, there is a heading "Memorize a Deck of Cards."
On page 232, there is a heading "Ask Your Boss for a Shallow Work Budget." (I've never tried that before, but I can't think of any boss I have ever worked for who would have liked that question. I could picture a boss giving me more shallow work, or reducing my financial budget, or paying me less. )
Especially on the scheduling, he is very flexible and loose on how he defines every minute of the day. He advocates time blocking. So one can time block lunch or recreational breaks. The minimum he recommends for a block is 30 minutes.
He addresses the criticism that this might become "burdensomely restrictive", "unhealthy", "obsessive", "minute-counting". He quotes from a blog post that brings up "the role of uncertainty" and the value of "getting-lost-in-activities, which if we're talking about artists is often the only really sensible course of action." He says that "On some days, you might rewrite your schedule half a dozen times." He admits that if he stumbles on a important insight, "then this is a perfectly valid reason to ignore the rest of my schedule for the day." He regularly schedules "significant blocks of time for speculative thinking and discussion." I saw on his website that he will schedule a thinking day.
In the book, he discusses several methods of deep work scheduling. I found this section interesting for the different lifestyles that people have: monastic, bimodal, rhythmic.
By the way, Avrum, on page 110, he suggests the chain method that Jerry Seinfeld uses to write jokes every day, and not break the chain.
September 6, 2023 at 16:58 |
Mark H.
Mark H.
While there is no shortage of people suggesting methods that have worked based on their own experiences, I do think that Newport is more well-rounded and researched than that.
Instead, I think Newport distills a set of principles from well-researched behaviors that are not just associated with his own life, but with many other areas of work as well, and then suggests methods of applying those principles in concrete ways. However, in every book of his that I've read, he's much more flexible as to the actual methods than many others, and instead emphasizes the principles that are being applied, which gives you a lot of flexibility.
For example, something people don't often catch is that he sees time blocking as a method of increasing intensity on one's "work life" and actually recommends *not* time blocking outside of work. He does think that one should create clear mental transition points between work and not work as a method of helping to switch off from working to enjoying other areas of life, but, again, he'll point out plenty of ways in which that can be accomplished, and that there might be many transitions throughout the day for some people.
All in all, I think a lot of Newport's points have been well born out in other research and by other people working in these areas.
As for asking your boss for a shallow work budget, I can say that at least personally, almost all the people I've worked with and especially the bosses have been very friendly to the idea of finding ways to reduce or eliminate shallow work. I have had some people I mentor who have worked in very high octane big name companies that have had to have that exact conversation with their superiors in the organization, and each time they were encouraged to "attend less meetings, get more of your core work done," and to be willing to say no to incoming requests and other shallow work in order to increase their time spent on their main work responsibilities. In fact, I found that the bosses in these cases were almost begging their employees to do so, while it was the employees who tended to like the shallow work more, or at least get distracted in it more easily.
That's not always the case, but another group I work with has actively acknowledged that we have issues with the *bosses* being caught up in too much shallow work and that we need to find ways to reduce the burden on the bosses so they can actually get the things we want them to do done.
In Newport's book "A World without Email," he does address some of the criticisms that people have made on his work around it only applying to certain types of work. I find his arguments compelling, personally. But I also think that his advice is a lot less absolute than a lot of people take it, and that's maybe what I find interesting about the original video that I posted in this thread.
Like a lot of people who become popular in the personal time management space, people tend to gravitate towards their specific set of practices over their principles. Such as people taking a lot of GTD very literally, or people being too strict with themselves on Forster's long lists, or people attempting to time block every minute of their entire day (and not just their workday). The video above demonstrates how even Newport would say, no, if you can find another way to create space in your life without needing a complex system to manage things, then do it! If you can make time to live without time blocking everything, and still have the time to do what you want, then do it! Newport actually speaks to this in Deep Work with the various methods of deep work styles, highlighting the monastic style as one that is highly envied by many in his own (and my) profession, but which is hardly practical for most people, and maybe not even particularly enjoyable for many people. But, if you can manage to create such a monastic lifestyle for yourself, then you probably don't need much in the way of time blocking or any other complex system.
I think the overall point that I find most interesting about all of this is the emphasis that all of these personal systems are only one part of the equation, and that there are often potentially other avenues to explore that might make more sophisticated personal management less necessary or that could simplify the personal management side. I've found this particularly true for myself.
Instead, I think Newport distills a set of principles from well-researched behaviors that are not just associated with his own life, but with many other areas of work as well, and then suggests methods of applying those principles in concrete ways. However, in every book of his that I've read, he's much more flexible as to the actual methods than many others, and instead emphasizes the principles that are being applied, which gives you a lot of flexibility.
For example, something people don't often catch is that he sees time blocking as a method of increasing intensity on one's "work life" and actually recommends *not* time blocking outside of work. He does think that one should create clear mental transition points between work and not work as a method of helping to switch off from working to enjoying other areas of life, but, again, he'll point out plenty of ways in which that can be accomplished, and that there might be many transitions throughout the day for some people.
All in all, I think a lot of Newport's points have been well born out in other research and by other people working in these areas.
As for asking your boss for a shallow work budget, I can say that at least personally, almost all the people I've worked with and especially the bosses have been very friendly to the idea of finding ways to reduce or eliminate shallow work. I have had some people I mentor who have worked in very high octane big name companies that have had to have that exact conversation with their superiors in the organization, and each time they were encouraged to "attend less meetings, get more of your core work done," and to be willing to say no to incoming requests and other shallow work in order to increase their time spent on their main work responsibilities. In fact, I found that the bosses in these cases were almost begging their employees to do so, while it was the employees who tended to like the shallow work more, or at least get distracted in it more easily.
That's not always the case, but another group I work with has actively acknowledged that we have issues with the *bosses* being caught up in too much shallow work and that we need to find ways to reduce the burden on the bosses so they can actually get the things we want them to do done.
In Newport's book "A World without Email," he does address some of the criticisms that people have made on his work around it only applying to certain types of work. I find his arguments compelling, personally. But I also think that his advice is a lot less absolute than a lot of people take it, and that's maybe what I find interesting about the original video that I posted in this thread.
Like a lot of people who become popular in the personal time management space, people tend to gravitate towards their specific set of practices over their principles. Such as people taking a lot of GTD very literally, or people being too strict with themselves on Forster's long lists, or people attempting to time block every minute of their entire day (and not just their workday). The video above demonstrates how even Newport would say, no, if you can find another way to create space in your life without needing a complex system to manage things, then do it! If you can make time to live without time blocking everything, and still have the time to do what you want, then do it! Newport actually speaks to this in Deep Work with the various methods of deep work styles, highlighting the monastic style as one that is highly envied by many in his own (and my) profession, but which is hardly practical for most people, and maybe not even particularly enjoyable for many people. But, if you can manage to create such a monastic lifestyle for yourself, then you probably don't need much in the way of time blocking or any other complex system.
I think the overall point that I find most interesting about all of this is the emphasis that all of these personal systems are only one part of the equation, and that there are often potentially other avenues to explore that might make more sophisticated personal management less necessary or that could simplify the personal management side. I've found this particularly true for myself.
September 9, 2023 at 14:53 |
Aaron Hsu
Aaron Hsu
I personally have gotten a lot of mileage out of Newport's methods (especially time blocking, the core of my productivity for over a decade), but admittedly, I'm also a very left-brained, control-oriented, computer science sort of person. I believe in embracing what works and discarding the rest, knowing that everyone is different. Sometimes that's a in-depth system. Sometimes that's feeling it out. Personal productivity is very, well, "personal". It's going to be a cocktail that's filtered by the person.
I am absolutely going to stan for getting rid of most/all of your social media, though, no matter who you are :V
I am absolutely going to stan for getting rid of most/all of your social media, though, no matter who you are :V
September 10, 2023 at 13:52 |
MHW
MHW
I think time blocking works a lot better for people who have to manage their obligations across multiple fronts on projects that don't have easy ways to break down tasks or that might require lots of open ended work.
For myself, while Newport's principles have been extremely helpful, especially as a diagnostic framework, it's amazing how many times I've tried time blocking and utterly failed at it.
My method of working is much closer to what Newport calls the Monastic method of deep work. And in that sense, time blocking on the scale of months isn't too bad, but even then I've had issues.
For myself, while Newport's principles have been extremely helpful, especially as a diagnostic framework, it's amazing how many times I've tried time blocking and utterly failed at it.
My method of working is much closer to what Newport calls the Monastic method of deep work. And in that sense, time blocking on the scale of months isn't too bad, but even then I've had issues.
September 11, 2023 at 20:28 |
Aaron Hsu
Aaron Hsu
I think I prefer to set targets for a day, as in I will attempt to accomplish A,B,C,D, and then balance my time to make sure I at least have time to work on each of those enough to move them forward enough, if I'm not able to accomplish them. I would rather spend the time actually needed for A than preset A to a certain block of time. Now if your day is punctuated by meetings, appointments and classes, then figuring out your blocks might make more sense.
September 11, 2023 at 21:19 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
Another good point in regard to Newport and "no system" is how his summers do not look like his normal academic periods. He's said a few places that his summer might be punctuated with very little in the way of meetings, but with a main goal of "write," and that might be it. And in that case, he might have a very relaxed set of time blocks, just having something scheduled for lunch or the like. Whereas he leans much more heavily on more detailed blocks (which is what people think of when they think of time blocking) in the Fall and Spring where he's inundated with obligations like any tenured professor still on "active duty."
September 12, 2023 at 7:45 |
Aaron Hsu
Aaron Hsu
I have been watching his interview with Tim Ferriss. He comes across well here. He shows that he has read the anti-productivity books, and can comment on them. Also on one of his podcasts he recommends books by other authors.
The difficulty I have with his advice is planning "every minute" of your work day.
That gives a different impression than what he really does.
The difficulty I have with his advice is planning "every minute" of your work day.
That gives a different impression than what he really does.
September 12, 2023 at 22:59 |
Mark H.
Mark H.
Aaron Hsu wrote:
<< it's amazing how many times I've tried time blocking and utterly failed at it >>
Same here.
For me, I think it's related to the ideas in "Structured Procrastination" -- http://structuredprocrastination.com/
The best way to guarantee I will NOT do something, is to time block it.
It is almost certain I will resist the assigned task and use the time block for something else instead.
Here is a recent example.
Skedpal is an app that automatically timeblocks your whole task list. I used it for a couple of months. It automatically timeblocks your large tasks (breaking them up into digestible chunks if needed), and creates timeblocks for 15- or 30-minute "bundles" of smaller tasks.
I would almost never actually do the specific thing it told me to do, at the time it told me to do it. It just always conflicted with my intuition for what needed to be done right then. The presented task would always bother me for some reason -- something else always seemed more pressing.
But I *would* scan through the stuff it presented to me for the day, using something like the Simple Scanning algorithm.
This approach actually worked very well. Skedpal gave me a list of the top 20-30 things that needed attention, and I would cycle through that and do whatever stood out.
Skedpal essentially generated a "closed list" for me to finish every day. The list was usually sized about right -- a full day's work. And it was usually the right set of priorities, taken as a whole. So I'd just cycle through it and do whatever stood out. At the end of the day, the results usually felt pretty good -- the right stuff got done.
Occasionally I'd go hunting for something else that was pressing on my mind, but wasn't on Skedpal's list. But this was not so frequent that it caused many problems.
<< it's amazing how many times I've tried time blocking and utterly failed at it >>
Same here.
For me, I think it's related to the ideas in "Structured Procrastination" -- http://structuredprocrastination.com/
The best way to guarantee I will NOT do something, is to time block it.
It is almost certain I will resist the assigned task and use the time block for something else instead.
Here is a recent example.
Skedpal is an app that automatically timeblocks your whole task list. I used it for a couple of months. It automatically timeblocks your large tasks (breaking them up into digestible chunks if needed), and creates timeblocks for 15- or 30-minute "bundles" of smaller tasks.
I would almost never actually do the specific thing it told me to do, at the time it told me to do it. It just always conflicted with my intuition for what needed to be done right then. The presented task would always bother me for some reason -- something else always seemed more pressing.
But I *would* scan through the stuff it presented to me for the day, using something like the Simple Scanning algorithm.
This approach actually worked very well. Skedpal gave me a list of the top 20-30 things that needed attention, and I would cycle through that and do whatever stood out.
Skedpal essentially generated a "closed list" for me to finish every day. The list was usually sized about right -- a full day's work. And it was usually the right set of priorities, taken as a whole. So I'd just cycle through it and do whatever stood out. At the end of the day, the results usually felt pretty good -- the right stuff got done.
Occasionally I'd go hunting for something else that was pressing on my mind, but wasn't on Skedpal's list. But this was not so frequent that it caused many problems.
September 13, 2023 at 2:09 |
Seraphim
Seraphim
Mark H:
<<The difficulty I have with his advice is planning "every minute" of your work day.
That gives a different impression than what he really does.>>
I do think that this confuses people. When he says plan something, he doesn't actually mean that you have to stick to your plan. It's more about setting intentions and being clear headed about things rather than pre-committing to everything up front.
There *are* a lot of people who swear by extremely exacting preplanned schedules though, which is probably a source of the confusion.
Newport is a big fan of having a guaranteed ending time for work, though, as something to create balance and constraint to encourage limits.
<<The difficulty I have with his advice is planning "every minute" of your work day.
That gives a different impression than what he really does.>>
I do think that this confuses people. When he says plan something, he doesn't actually mean that you have to stick to your plan. It's more about setting intentions and being clear headed about things rather than pre-committing to everything up front.
There *are* a lot of people who swear by extremely exacting preplanned schedules though, which is probably a source of the confusion.
Newport is a big fan of having a guaranteed ending time for work, though, as something to create balance and constraint to encourage limits.
September 13, 2023 at 14:18 |
Aaron Hsu
Aaron Hsu
However, there was an interesting question that has come up on his Podcast in response to Slow Productivity as he conceives it. I discovered this recently:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfBHzLgC3qs
What is funny about this is that Newport's analysis amounts to saying that if you can get sufficient influence over your external environment, then you can reduce your need for complex systems inside of your personal sphere. The end result of that is that you could potentially dump pretty much all of your systems over time if you managed to adjust your engagement with the external world appropriately.
Of course, Newport caveats all this at the end with his personal conclusion that most people can't do that, and so you need a system. However, I think the very admission of the possibility of such a world, and the fact that some people have managed this, at high levels of success, is, if not game changing, something of a missing perspective for a lot of people.
This could create a type of meta-system in itself.