Get Everything Done

Mike, I'm not disagreeing with you - however, I do want to point out one thing that I think is pertinent. It seems that men (in general) are much more goal / outcome oriented and women are more process / performance oriented. Unfortunately most goal oriented literature is written by men, and what works for them may not for women.

There have been studies done on learning in university and the results showed that people received higher grades and experienced greater feelings of efficacy when they had process vs. outcome goals. I'm too lazy to go look up the references, but they're out there.

And I wouldn't turn that goal from a "want to" to a "have to", I would turn it into a WILL do / REALLY REALLY want to do. When I first set my own goal to retire early, I didn't have a date in mind or a certain amount. It was too far out and seemed too nebulous at the time. My outcome time frame was "when I want to do other things more than I want to spend time working." I did have a really good process though. And I just kept sticking to that process day after day and month after month. Yeah, I monitored my progress once in awhile, for maybe 2 minutes once a month but that's it. That's why I'm suggesting that if Lillian or Nicole just ensured that if they kept 5 actions towards their goal on their list at all times or ensuring they spend 5 hours a week on it, or develop certain habits, they'll get there.

Say someone wanted to lose 20 pounds. I think they'd be further ahead by just following a process in their way of eating and exercising and letting the weight take care of itself. Sure, you'd have to do some monitoring to test the effectiveness of your process, but you don't have to tell yourself you HAVE TO lose 2 pounds per week every week to still get there. That's what makes people get unmotivated and quit.

Mr Forster:

>>Remember it's better to do a few things well than a lot of things badly. >>

Unless, those many things are really, really important things. Then they might be worth doing well OR badly. : )

"if a thing is worth doing, it is worth doing badly" -- G.K. Chesterton, "What's Wrong with the World"

Of course, perhaps there aren't a multiplicity of truly important things. . .

--Joseph

Hi Joseph,

My husband, frustratingly neat, tidy and efficient, swears by the maxim "better done badly than not done at all".

Very different from my attitude - "do it properly, or not at all".

We have happy times in our house, we do :-)

Hi Jacqueline,

>>> Mike, I'm not disagreeing with you - however, <<<

LOL ;-) But that's fine. Lots of people disagree with me.

>>> I do want to point out one thing that I think is pertinent. It seems that men (in general) are much more goal / outcome oriented and women are more process / performance oriented. Unfortunately most goal oriented literature is written by men, and what works for them may not for women. <<<

Ehhhh, mmmmm, <scratching head> I can make an anthropological case for that point of view, and my experience "seems" to support it, but then the counter examples are many. I wonder if Learning would describe herself as "not goal oriented". (Learning, what do you think?)

In my own life, I've had two wives and BOTH are/were very goal oriented ... perhaps more goal oriented than I am. One was a roaring E1 and could not sit still for two minutes without making a list (at least mentally). So while my observation of "soccer moms" comports with this idea, my experience of women in the circles I've lived in does not.

>>> There have been studies done on learning in university and the results showed that people received higher grades and experienced greater feelings of efficacy when they had process vs. outcome goals. I'm too lazy to go look up the references, but they're out there. <<<

Well, there are all kinds of studies posted on the web and I'm not at all sure that even a small percent of them are real. ;-) Yes, if you want good grades it is a good idea to have a good process of study and apply it continually. OTOH, if you don't have a well-formed goal to get that master's thesis written, you'll never get out of school. IMO, what determines a process vs. goal oriented approach is the task itself, not the sex of the person doing it. Things that are more like projects require goals, things that are less, probably benefit from a level of effort approach. Ex. Organizing the garage is more of a project and might benefit from a goal approach ... keeping an organized house clean and organized is a level of effort thing ... vacuum weekly, mop the floors every other week, always put things away, etc.

>>> And I wouldn't turn that goal from a "want to" to a "have to", I would turn it into a WILL do / REALLY REALLY want to do. <<<

I can see that point of view. In fact, I think a WILL DO is a step beyond HAVE TO.

>>> When I first set my own goal to retire early, I didn't have a date in mind or a certain amount. It was too far out and seemed too nebulous at the time. My outcome time frame was "when I want to do other things more than I want to spend time working." I did have a really good process though. And I just kept sticking to that process day after day and month after month. Yeah, I monitored my progress once in awhile, for maybe 2 minutes once a month but that's it. That's why I'm suggesting that if Lillian or Nicole just ensured that if they kept 5 actions towards their goal on their list at all times or ensuring they spend 5 hours a week on it, or develop certain habits, they'll get there. <<<

Yes, but remember that the start of this thread had to do with being discouraged about not getting to goals. Then it became a question of if the goals were the right ones. If you don't have the "right" goals, then suggestions about how to achieve them are kind of beside the point, no? I mean, putting "small and often" tasks on your AF list does not help if you don't really think you want to do the thing in the first place.

Also, I don't disagree at all with your approach ... for you. And I also don't disagree that it works for some things for me ... it is just not that helpful when a real goal is what is needed. Retiring early seems to have been workable for you with your system. I'd suggest that it might have more to do with your own personal orientation. Realize that you are in the financial area so your thinking is probably basically different than many of us. So for you, looking at a financial goal once in six months might be enough because of your basic thinking and orientation. AND, I'd also wonder if you were perhaps not aware of how often you really did take the measure of things ... if only subliminally.

Now I'm not that much interested in the world of finance. So for me I need to plan to get to a goal and take specific steps and have reminders and milestones and all of that ... or it just never gets done. And AF won't do it for me for that. I don't care how many times I see the task on my AF list, I'm going to ignore it ... unless it has the emphasis of a scheduled task because of its importance. Even something like "charge batteries" (which needs to be done monthly and takes only two seconds of work to plug in the charger) gets put off for weeks because I've got other things on my mind. AF works brilliantly for some things and not at all for others ... in my case. Charging the batteries is on my tickler so it gets done ... I respect the urgency of items on the tickler. Accelerating the pay down on my home equity line of credit is automated so it gets done no matter what. In fact, what has made the most difference to me personally has been learning what works and what does not. In my veiw, success is not learning one new tool but having a suite of tools which you know how to apply. (I.E. habits, ticklers, calendar entries, goals, reviews, someday/maybe list, must do tasks, blocked time, and now AF. All of those taken together make up my system. No single one works alone.)

>>> Say someone wanted to lose 20 pounds. I think they'd be further ahead by just following a process in their way of eating and exercising and letting the weight take care of itself. Sure, you'd have to do some monitoring to test the effectiveness of your process, but you don't have to tell yourself you HAVE TO lose 2 pounds per week every week to still get there. That's what makes people get unmotivated and quit. <<<

And there again, I both agree and disagree. If you don't set the goal and take feedback you'll just drift. OTOH, if you don't change lifestyle (a process change) you're just as likely to fail. So I see it as a bit of both. As to HAVE to lose 20 pounds ... I can tell you that I did not start to get my weight under control until I got the results of my physical and had to decide if chocolate cake was preferable to living a few more years. That is a HAVE TO. situation. And once I got to that mental place, the "process" became easier to stick with ... and it is the PROCESS that is doing the heavy lifting. I also found that in the beginning I needed feedback to learn the process and later I found feedback motivational. It sure is much easier to turn your back on the cake after seeing the number on the scale drop in the morning. Who wants to undo that success? Personally, I found that if the number went UP for some reason, it was motivation to take a harder look at what I did yesterday ... it was not depressing. But then, YMMV, of course ;-)

Hi Mike
I don't have time to read your post in full yet, but my ego noticed my name......
GUILTY as charged................I'm one of the WORST sinners in goal addiction! Yet, achieving my goals has always been the driving force and highlights of my experiencing life because the competition is mostly with stretching myself. The trophy or blue ribbon was only superfluous decoration. I've even not placed well in some competitions where I actually felt great about myself. I'm sure it's an admixture of early indoctrination and genetics so I won't feel guilty or inappropriately too manish. LOL! I embrace my femininity while loving to push my limits. When I push hard I need to see in my mind what I'm striving for. The pure process is reverie and it can also be horribly punishing at times. Excellence or any growth always has components of both. That's my take on it.
I'll read the rest of your article later. Break over...
vickie

Mike, it seems that with your very approach to AF, you are much more outcome oriented than process oriented than most. Back in the day when I toyed with the thought of competing in BB, this article was helpful to me in understanding the difference:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/goal-versus-process-oriented-training-part-1.html

The process oriented person would work with the AF system, following the steps and could end up with a backlog (like Nicole, Christine and others - even me) or unmanageable list, then tweak their process. But those people will usually strive *very* hard (maybe too hard) to stick rigidly to the process rather than listen to what the measurement is telling them because that's the way they're oriented. The outcome oriented person would tweak their process much sooner based on feedback. But the process person is usually focused on the process itself as their indicator of how they're doing. It seems they will also be more interested in keeping stats on how the process is working rather than how they're progressing towards their goals/outcomes. So the process is more critical to them than the goals themselves. Even more reason to develop an iron-clad process.

It's all very interesting, but I still maintain that if measuring in time doesn't work for someone then find what does. You step on the scale and see your weight went up and feel motivated. I do the same thing and get frustrated and want to give up - or re-focus on the process. Organizations like Weight Watchers are built around a process towards a goal (which is not timed, it is completely process oriented).

Well FWIW Mike, in her response learning confirmed my theory that she's focused on the process, not the outcome - ie. winning. It doesn't mean she doesn't have GOALS, I mean I have goals too, I'm just concerned with the process more than the outcome.

"the competition is mostly with stretching myself. The trophy or blue ribbon was only superfluous decoration. I've even not placed well in some competitions where I actually felt great about myself."

I shouldn't have said "goal/outcome orientation" when I meant more outcome orientation, because being process oriented doesn't mean that you don't have goals. Obviously someone like Nicole or Lillian has a goal, IIRC, I even told Norman that he has a goal, it just might not be a very good one.

Maybe it's not just women, but even anecdotally on this board I think the theory holds. Or so my E5 personality has observed.

But I'll let you win this discussion since you're an E5W6, cuz I've had my fun in the process of discussing it. ;-)

(((Jacq and Mike)))
I love you guys! Your discussions keep my mind well-nourished and entertained! You discussions are both the meat and the desert!
learning as I go

Jacqueline:
Robert Boice fails to mention the gender aspect when studying process-product styles. But then maybe seeing, a gender distinction in styles, is also gender dependent :)

Just a quote to illustrate the two process-product styles:
"...they (procrastinators) are also relatively unique in maintaining a product (as distinct from process) orientation where they concentrate more on the outcomes they believe they need (for example, ‘‘I’ll need to finish twenty-five pages of good prose this weekend’’) than on ways of learning to work more efficiently and durably (‘‘Maybe I would get more done in the long run if I stopped planning such big goals and just settled into doing a few good pages a day’’ [see Dweck, 1986 for other examples of process versus product styles of problem solving])." Robert Boice

Damien,

Is the "Dweck" you're referring to Carol Dweck who wrote "Mindset"? (I enjoyed the book).
This one?

https://www.stanford.edu/dept/psychology/cgi-bin/drupalm/cdweck
https://www.stanford.edu/dept/psychology/cgi-bin/drupalm/system/files/A%20social-cognitive%20approach_0.pdf

Yes it is the same Dweck. The article Robert Boice refers to "Dweck, C. (1986). Motivational processes affecting learning. American Psychologist, 41, 1040–1048" is also mentioned in her CV (not in pubmed).

Hey Jacqueline,

>>> Mike, it seems that with your very approach to AF, you are much more outcome oriented than process oriented than most. Back in the day when I toyed with the thought of competing in BB, this article was helpful to me in understanding the difference:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/training/goal-versus-process-oriented-training-part-1.html >>>

The problem I have with the article is that it confuses outcome (and the method of its achievement ... or lack thereof) with ones reaction to outcome. It is NOT true that missing a goal MUST cause a person to auger in. That extreme and self-destructive reaction to the event is a problem, but it does not flow necessarily from the kind of management system one uses. Put another way, if the thesis is that goal oriented persons are psychologically unstable because of that orientation ... it is an argument that must be made explicitly ... not simply asserted.

>>> The process oriented person would work with the AF system, following the steps and could end up with a backlog (like Nicole, Christine and others - even me) or unmanageable list, then tweak their process. But those people will usually strive *very* hard (maybe too hard) to stick rigidly to the process rather than listen to what the measurement is telling them because that's the way they're oriented. The outcome oriented person would tweak their process much sooner based on feedback. But the process person is usually focused on the process itself as their indicator of how they're doing. It seems they will also be more interested in keeping stats on how the process is working rather than how they're progressing towards their goals/outcomes. So the process is more critical to them than the goals themselves. Even more reason to develop an iron-clad process. <<<

That sounds about right to me.

>>> It's all very interesting, but I still maintain that if measuring in time doesn't work for someone then find what does. <<<

Of course.

>>> You step on the scale and see your weight went up and feel motivated. I do the same thing and get frustrated and want to give up - or re-focus on the process. Organizations like Weight Watchers are built around a process towards a goal (which is not timed, it is completely process oriented). <<<

Well, whatever works. I don't think, however, that the way you react to a situation is carved in stone. Sometimes it makes more sense to change the way you react. Changing that might have longer term and more wide reaching benefits. Just a thought.

>>> Well FWIW Mike, in her response learning confirmed my theory that she's focused on the process, not the outcome - ie. winning. It doesn't mean she doesn't have GOALS, I mean I have goals too, I'm just concerned with the process more than the outcome. <<<

Good gosh, we are so different in our perspectives. I read her response to mean that she is VERY goal oriented. Yes, she revels in her work, but she is driven by the goal and measures her course by that goal. What she is NOT, is emotionally enslaved by missing the goal.

>>> "the competition is mostly with stretching myself. The trophy or blue ribbon was only superfluous decoration. I've even not placed well in some competitions where I actually felt great about myself." <<<

What I read there is that she is not measuring by external EVALUATION of her work. I make a distinction between internal vs. external evaluation and the method one uses to achieve ones aims (goal vs. process).

>>> I shouldn't have said "goal/outcome orientation" when I meant more outcome orientation, because being process oriented doesn't mean that you don't have goals. Obviously someone like Nicole or Lillian has a goal, IIRC, I even told Norman that he has a goal, it just might not be a very good one. <<<

I think there are a lot of confusing terms, to be sure. It is possible to have a goal, but not be goal "oriented" in how one works. IOW, I want to make $1M but I don't plan my steps and check my progress. It is also possible to have "dreams" which one thinks are goals.

>>> Maybe it's not just women, but even anecdotally on this board I think the theory holds. Or so my E5 personality has observed. <<<

ROTF ;-)

>>> But I'll let you win this discussion since you're an E5W6, cuz I've had my fun in the process of discussing it. ;-) <<<

It's all good. It is mostly a matter of perspective.

What are the other questions Alan Lakein recommends for uncovering your "true goals"?

Mark,

That was the best of my recollection. I'm sorry to say that I'm not prepared to dig out the book and type it in here right now ;-) It is actually a pretty cheap paperback and can be found on Amazon, as well as most used book stores. Honestly, it is well worth reading.

Mark T,
Here's the process from Lakein's book.

Write at the top of a piece of paper the question #1:
"What are my lifetime goals?"
Take 2 minutes to list answers on your paper, take into account personal, family, social, career, financial, community and spiritual goals.
Question #2:
"How would I like to spend the next three years?" (if you're over 30, make it 5 years)
Question #3:
"If I knew now I would be struck dead by lightning six months from today, how would I live until then?"

Like Mike says, best to read the book to put it in context, plus it has excellent advice on time management in general, specifically prioritization. Otherwise it's possible to write up goals but never achieve them.

Thanks Jacqueline.

Jacqueline,

Yes, the questions alone don't explain enough.

Also, IIRC, there are something like 101 techniques for dealing with procrastination among which there must be at least ONE good idea for everyone.

Hi Mike,

If you're thinking of the appendix - which is the only place with a list of techniques - that's entitled "How I Save Time." There's 61 techniques on that, all of which are good. I have always really liked his perspective on what he defines as "A" projects/activities - it's not always work, work, work. It's pretty much the bible of time management IMHO and should be required reading in high school.

Hi Jacqueline,

Yes, that is exactly what I was thinking of. I've not read the book in a few years so the details became a bit fuzzy ;-)

Taught in High School: Egad, what a concept. I've always maintained that what should be taught in the early years are not myths about friendly Indians giving corn to impeccably dressed Puritans on Thanksgiving ... but rather the crucial tools to manage one's self in the coming years. But hey, that's just me and my ADD talking here ;-)

Mark,

You mean you wouldn't give time management seminars or delete spam about Russian women if you only had 6 months to go?!!? ;-)

I think that's most people's first reactions but you get good goals out of it once you've gotten past the trivial answers like that. Oddly enough, I'd try not to spend a thing because I'd want my kids to be secure and buying junk or traveling first class doesn't make me that happy. I think most people that do encounter that circumstance in real life don't madly spend everything. I'd probably spend a lot of time with my friends and family, travel a bit, ski or hike a lot, write a book, build a lake cabin for/with my kids and maybe push Mike to climb Mount Everest with me.

Come to think of it, there was a writer - can't recall the name - maybe 19th century? - who had some kind of fatal prognosis and ended up leaving his job and writing tons of books because he wanted to provide for his family. I think he actually ended up living longer though.

Randy Pausch chose to run around giving lectures in pretty much exactly that circumstance. I've heard that he had a pretty big ego and was a major workaholic, so there's different strokes I guess.

jacqueline,

a patient of my dad's went through exactly what you described - he was diagnosed with cancer of the pancreas, which has a very poor prognosis. he was offered various treatments to extend his lifespan, but declined.

instead, he decided to spend the time and money he had left on a "grown up gap year".

whilst he was in india, he went to get a prescription for painkillers, and the doctor who attended him said, "you don't have cancer, you have tuberculosis."

various tests followed, and it transpired he did indeed have TB, not cancer. treatment? antibiotics.

doctors in the UK (not just my dad i hasten to add!) had repeatedly misdiagnosed him because it's such a rare form of TB; in india, TB is much more common and therefore doctors are much better at diagnosing it.

the patient was so thrilled to have his death sentence lifted that he didn't sue, so my dad and his colleagues had an equally lucky escape.

Mark,

Put another way (not original with me but I forget my source):

"The problem with the philosophy of 'Eat, Drink, and be Merry for Tomorrow you may die.' is that tomorrow you usually don't."

Jacqueline,

>>> You mean you wouldn't give time management seminars or delete spam about Russian women if you only had 6 months to go?!!? ;-) <<<

LOL ;-)

>>> I think that's most people's first reactions but you get good goals out of it once you've gotten past the trivial answers like that. <<<

And your answer may depend a lot on your current goals, ironically enough. I love that Asimov (I think) quote I just recently stumbled across: "If I knew I were going to die tomorrow, I'd type faster." As Lakein points out, if you are well aligned with your goals you would probably change very little.

>>> Oddly enough, I'd try not to spend a thing because I'd want my kids to be secure and buying junk or traveling first class doesn't make me that happy. I think most people that do encounter that circumstance in real life don't madly spend everything. I'd probably spend a lot of time with my friends and family, travel a bit, ski or hike a lot, write a book, build a lake cabin for/with my kids and maybe push Mike to climb Mount Everest with me. <<<

ROTFLMAO ;-) I don't know why I got interested in climbing. I used to do some technical rock climbing ... many long years ago. Now, when I see those folks freeing their asses off losing body parts just for the view, I keep thinking I'd rather save up for a ticket on Branson's space shuttle ;-)

>>> Come to think of it, there was a writer - can't recall the name - maybe 19th century? - who had some kind of fatal prognosis and ended up leaving his job and writing tons of books because he wanted to provide for his family. I think he actually ended up living longer though. <<<

That actually happens quite frequently, so I've heard.

>>> Randy Pausch chose to run around giving lectures in pretty much exactly that circumstance. I've heard that he had a pretty big ego and was a major workaholic, so there's different strokes I guess. <<<

While I was impressed with his ability to manage his situation, I thought he would be a royal pain to work with.

Hey little b and Mike,

It's awesome that this guy had a good resolution. It's kind of sad that anyone would even consider suing because of it though.

I don't know, I'm torn about the 6 months thing etc. I'm seeing a lot of people online nowadays that are all about "lifestyle design" (woo-woo), breaking free of the cubicle, blah blah blah. There seems to be a major emphasis on living NOW without thinking about the future in a very balanced way. While I admire their enthusiasm (and naivety), I question the practicality. But then I don't aspire to eating cat food in 30 years. Maybe that's a sign of getting older. :-) At times it seems like a mass cluster**** where everyone links to and breeds on each other and there's no critical discourse. That's one thing I like about this forum is that it's open to opposing viewpoints in a civilized way.

Here's a neat blog that is quite awesome: :-)
http://beyondgrowth.net/conscious-marketing/overdosing-on-awesome/

And another of my faves:
http://shambook.blogspot.com/2009/10/notes-on-price-of-pursuing-ridiculous.html

Jacqueline,

>>> I don't know, I'm torn about the 6 months thing etc. I'm seeing a lot of people online nowadays that are all about "lifestyle design" (woo-woo), breaking free of the cubicle, blah blah blah. <<<

ROTF ;-) I know what you mean. Drives me crackers at times.

>>> There seems to be a major emphasis on living NOW without thinking about the future in a very balanced way. <<<

Yeah, that is the state of things now ... well, now and for the last few decades and possibly getting worse over time.

>>> While I admire their enthusiasm (and naivety), I question the practicality. But then I don't aspire to eating cat food in 30 years. Maybe that's a sign of getting older. :-) <<<

LOL ;-)

>>> At times it seems like a mass cluster**** where everyone links to and breeds on each other and there's no critical discourse. That's one thing I like about this forum is that it's open to opposing viewpoints in a civilized way. <<<

Yes, I do too. The thing about that goal setting question is that it acts as a check on blue sky thinking such as you might object to. After you have decided that you want to climb Mt. Everst as a long term goal and you confront the question of what you would do if you only had a few months left, you realize that you would not care to go mountain climbing after all. I think it is a good way to put some reality into planning.

Nice blogs. I like that perspective.

Mike, I blame Oprah. I really do. :-)

I wonder how many people dream of doing things like climbing Everest because they love mountain climbing or they just want to be able to say they climbed the big one? I've been wondering lately if some of my goals are like that where I love the idea of doing this grand thing (and they sound impressive too!) more than the process of what it takes to get there. Like I enjoy hiking and often think of doing a thru-hike on the Appalachian or Pacific Coast trail - but would I really enjoy being out there for SIX months?!? Are they just "ego goals"?

Jacqueline,

I have so much to say about that but I'm shutting down the computer to head off to my in-laws. I'll probably get to this when I have some time in the hotel tomorrow, while my beautiful wife is in her conducting workshop.

'till then ;-)

Jacqueline,

Well, it has been unusually hard to get to the internet recently. The silly hotel wanted to charge for internet access. It seems that the Sheraton is living in its own little world. Hell, most McDonald's now have a wi-fi service. Now at my brother-in-law's I find that Comcast is screwing up and needs to replace the drop to the house. But at least there is SOME access ;-(

>>> I wonder how many people dream of doing things like climbing Everest because they love mountain climbing or they just want to be able to say they climbed the big one? I've been wondering lately if some of my goals are like that where I love the idea of doing this grand thing (and they sound impressive too!) more than the process of what it takes to get there. Like I enjoy hiking and often think of doing a thru-hike on the Appalachian or Pacific Coast trail - but would I really enjoy being out there for SIX months?!? Are they just "ego goals"? <<<

This is precisely why I like the well-formed goal idea. When I did my goal setting exercises, a la Lakein I took a lot of time formulating them. IOW, after I had the basic list from the exercises, I paid a lot of attention to the six-month list. (After thinking more about it from our last exchange, it dawned on me that it is precisely the six-month question that brings into focus LONG TERM goals, rather than short. The question is not do you want to DO in the next six months, but if you ONLY HAD six months, what would be the most IMPORTANT things you could accomplish in those last months? That is a question of ultimate importance rather than one of immediate gratification.)

But to continue (squirrel! ;-) once the goal was identified, and fleshed out according to the general principles of well-formedness (specific, time limited, etc.) I wrote several paragraphs describing my outcome. IOW, I described how it would be to have accomplished it, why I wanted to do it, what I would have gotten from it, etc. I feel that helps in separating the pie-in-the-sky things from those which are really meaningful.

It is still possible for crap to get through that filter. But to do so it would have to be something like: "I want to climb Mt. Everest so my buddies will have their jaws hanging open." O.K. for the day on which you write the goal, but over time, as you start to plan the milestones and projects and tasks, rereading that REASON for doing the thing kind of brings into focus that maybe I don't REALLY want to climb the mountain, but rather just make others feel incompetent compared to me. Then I'm more likely to question my motives and overall mental health ;-)

I am what some here are lately calling a scanner, I guess. I have gobs of interests and tend to be wider than deep. Whatever the reasons for that (and I must say that I'm not a big fan of reasons for motivation) I find that I need to be very careful to understand my reasons for doing a project ... the more so if it will take lots of time and effort. EVERYTHING seems fun to do ... but time is not infinite and not everything will have a high pay back.

A second thing here is that one of the classical ways we procrastinate is by this whole relative difficulty idea (which AF uses to some advantage). I am not one to always flee to outright pleasure in order to avoid work ... I'm quite happy to do things that take a LOT of work, so long as it is work that I don't (for my own reasons) despise doing. The implication here is that just doing something, even something that may have great worth, may not be the best use of my time. I want to be doing something that has a high pay back and so I spend considerable time prioritizing goals. Only through prioritizing can I be sure that I am not kidding myself and avoiding doing important things (to which I am resistant) in favor of less important but attractive ones, which nonetheless are still valuable.

Hotels have been their own world for some time now. After all, why does a beer-fridge drink cost $10, and why does a local phone call sometimes cost $1.50?

Good stuff on goal setting, Mike.

As I near the end of nanowrimo.org, I love this quote, too:

I read a quote by some writer or other (it might have been Azimov) and he said that if he was told he had only one day to live, the only thing he'd change was that he would just type faster.

I wonder if people would feel better about goal-setting if they decided that dropping the goal was success, too. Lately I am just as excited about the goals I've decided not to pursue as the goals I'm still working on.

I don't think everyone is goal-oriented in the same way and even within people, our approach to goals fluctuates. I've achieved goals where I did it the SMART way and goals I've achieved that I approached in a very laid-back way. Right now I have a goal of writing a 50,000 word novel in a month. It's very Lakein-ish. Then I have another goal which is to get better at tennis. I went through a time recently where I considered dropping the goal. The fact that cranky 80yo women were beating me had something to do with that. I'm continuing to move in the general direction of my goal in spite of my humiliation. But I refuse to feel like I failed if I don't continue with it. Some goals shouldn't be pursued and some could be achieved easily if you really wanted them.

When I started AF I became very anxious about my progress on goals. Now I see lack of progress as the best indicator of what I really want. I don't like to think of what I would do if I would die in six months and that's not just because the thought isn't appealing. :-) I prefer a 5 year time-frame. I do think Jacqueline's suggestion of a Bucket List is a fun idea. I just won't be killing myself to complete them all (pun intended).

Good Morning Mel,

That quote by Asimov (if it was him ;-) actually illustrates how successful goals work. It is not that he has no goals, just that he is in nearly perfect alignment with them. IOW, he set his goals and they have held up so well that he can't think of a better way to use his time other than to pursue the ones he has.

As to the bucket list ... IIRC, those two guys were about to die and one had no goals and the point of it all was that he needed them or he would stand no chance at all. So that is yet another case of having and testing goals to be sure you are working on the right ones.

As to the main message in what you say ... I don't know if you have ever seen the TV show "Mythbusters". Adam (the goofy one) is most often seen wearing a T-Shirt with the slogan: "Failure is always an option." That always cracked me up and seems to me to be the essence of the scientific method. Just the other day I was driving through some godforsaken place in the mid-west ;-) and I saw some kind of a slogan for a school or something: "Failure is never an option." I entirely get that, and would have subscribed wholeheartedly in the past ... but this time it took me aback. It got me thinking of exactly what message I'd want to convey to kids. Certainly they already feel that failure is an option, but ... ;-)

"Failure is an option" has two senses:
1) failure is okay; don't fear it
2) failure is a choice;often you can choose success instead.

Which sense applies depends on the situation. The second sense is what "not an option people" are thinking.

I like what that Perfectionism article suggested: Lower your standards so you can succeed more. By your original standard, that's failure, which perfectionists fear. But it really isn't failure at all. It's just the perception.

The 6 month vs. 5 year thing might also impact the *way* you approach the goal even though the goal itself stays the same.

Let's just say I want to declutter my house (which I do). If that was on my 5 year list, I'd methodically go through everything, dropping stuff off at goodwill, having a garage sale and otherwise re-homing things. If I had only 6 months to go, I'd make a pile of everything to keep, throw everything else outside on the sidewalk with a "FREE" sign on it and haul the rest to the dump.

So maybe the message there is to treat my 5 year goal in a way more aligned with my 6 month methods.

I like your "crap filter" ideas Mike. :-) I will definitely set up a filter for the "2010 New Years resolutions" that I do over Xmas.

Mel, maybe tennis would be on your 6 month bucket list - and if it was, it might change to *enjoying* playing tennis more and learn the love of the game rather than focusing on getting better. And by enjoying it more, you probably get better by default.

Alan,

>>> I like what that Perfectionism article suggested: Lower your standards so you can succeed more. By your original standard, that's failure, which perfectionists fear. But it really isn't failure at all. It's just the perception. <<<

So much of this stuff is how you look at it. On the face of it, lowering standards is a bad thing. But what it seems to come down to is what the standards are about. Where we get into big trouble is when we judge ourselves by a too high standard. As someone put it (someone in the NLP world, to be sure) is that depression often ensues because of unrealistically high standards. People who are miserable are often running after these super high goals. The happiest ones are those who's standard of happiness is just waking up above ground.

But none of this works for all people in the same way.

Are you sure you guys don't have Ph.D.'s in psychology? ;-)

I love "Failure is always an option" Mike because quite frankly in my life until recently, it hasn't been. I think there are those for whom the opposite slogan could produce rewards. But for me, a very harsh self-critic, the former is more appropriate.

Jacqueline, I think you bring up an excellent point. The time-frame for goals does impact our methods. That is why I like using a longer deadline for some things anyway. The methods I'd adopt for a 6-month deadline are too harsh for some things. Like, I'd get rid of one whole season's worth of clothing if I were going in 6 months. LOL

Love your idea to have "enjoy tennis more" as a goal. I think this is in line with my desire to be patient and positive about it rather than saying, "You look like an idiot"--my usual commentary.

Alan, I have been working toward lowering my standards for the past several months. One of the biggest areas that has had a huge payoff is in terms of productivity.

Mike, I think you're right that the Bucket List guys NEEDED their list to keep them going. I am so thankful that I feel I could die today and have no deep regrets. A few little things I would have wished I'd taken care of, but nothing major. No unquenchable desire to visit a country I haven't visited. I'm content. But I do need to scrub my kitchen floor today. ;-)

Oh Mel, I agree about the 6 month methods being too harsh even for decluttering. I like to be environmentally friendly after all. :-) But I could still learn to be a bit more decisive. Now get out that bucket and wash that floor!

Mel, sometimes I like having my bucket/goal list to rein in myself. For example, I can and do receive emails from travel places regularly on trips to Vegas, Disneyworld and other places I don't really have any interest in. Having written down where I do really want to go somewhere reminds me that Vegas isn't on that list. It's hard to stay mindful of what you really want when faced with temptations from marketers and having it on a list definitely helps.

Mike, are you thinking about Lyndon Duke and the "linguistics of suicide" where he talks about the "curse of exceptionality?" Basically, that some suicidal people expect more out of life than life can realistically give. And expect more out of themselves than they can give too sometimes.

I think I also recall Carol Dweck in her book Mindset talking about "the curse of the exceptional student" - that one hit home and caused a lot of issues for me in my late 20's and early 30's with that perfectionist mindset. But that's another thread.

Mel.

The "Failure is always an option." seems to fit well with these guys. They are both special effects (FX) guys ... they have created lots of the monsters you see in the movies as well as robots for ads and exploding this and that. I can see where having that mindset is very helpful to them. They never know if something will work or not so they just have to try it and keep on tinkering and in the end, settle for a new approach. (And, BTW, they are not drunken morons like some of their imitators. They really can do the math and design the project before they start. Great show!)

Jacqueline,

No, it did not come from those sources. It was someone in the NLP world, for sure. Perhaps several. NLP has modeled what works for people. IOW, if you want to be a successful student, find a successful (better if you do it with many) and interview them very carefully to discover what they do that works. Then do that yourself. (I say carefully because they seldom know the key and much of what they tell you sounds good but is irrelevant.)

In this particular case they wondered what makes people happy and one of the key points is having a low standard for happiness. Some people need to crush someone in business to be happy. Some need to make lots of money. The people who are MOST happy ... I mean happy PEOPLE, not just people BEING happy ... are those who will be happy for just about any reason. They are happy to just be alive. They don't have lots of conditions they need to meet in order to feel happy. We have all met those people ... truth be told, they often annoy ;-) But they are just anthropomorphizied sunshine. My wife is a bit like that. She has this wonderful smile that, once she is up in the morning (because there is nothing happy about mornings for her ;-) she turns on and it lights the world up.

Another way to look at it is that some people need a reason to be happy, others need a reason to be sad.

Speaking of NLP, I am chomping at the bit to finish Ellis so I can get to "The Emotional Hostage" again. In it they model the components of emotion and I'm looking forward to seeing what they did for procrastination. IIRC, they did not address processes so much as real emotion so I'm not hopeful in that regard, but since a sense of inadequacy is key to much of procrastination (especially perfectionism) and hostility to another, I'll bet I am able to add to my compilation of ideas from that source.

Re: Cleaning in six months. You know, I had a very enlightening experience in that regard. One day I was driving home from a road trip and rounded the corner just as I was worrying that all was O.K. with the house while I was gone. In the split second I saw the house (perfectly fine) it dawned on me that I would not be all that brokenhearted if the place burned down (this was before I had furry critters living with me). The thought of losing everything did not seem so awful after all. So why did I have so much STUFF?

Great stuff, you two. It DOES help me to know what I want so I can filter out everything I don't. I am going to consider a bucket list, but have to decide on a time frame. Even a places-I-want-to-go list would work.

A low standard for happiness. That's it. I couldn't figure out why my easy-going, always content girlfriends could be okay with not dusting for example. Or not making five salads for a dinner party when just one would do. I've always felt compelled to do more.

As for determining what makes a person successful, we're nearly always wrong. Even when we're given the right answer, we tend to dismiss it. Why is Tiger Woods so good at golf? Because he started playing at 2. No, that's not it. It's the clubs. LOL

Another mental technique I've used for determining what I really need to keep is to imagine that I'm going to live in a small condo for a couple of years. What would I really need? Mike, you wouldn't be sad about losing your pictures and mementos?

Happy gobble-gobble day to you Mel,

I'm doing a last few minutes of gossiping here before I pack up the car for travel back to a (presumably still standing) home ;-)

>>> Great stuff, you two. It DOES help me to know what I want so I can filter out everything I don't. I am going to consider a bucket list, but have to decide on a time frame. Even a places-I-want-to-go list would work. <<<

The "bucket list" is just one of those pop catch phrases for a list of lifetime goals. I really REALLY suggest to anyone that doing the exercies in the Lakein book will be life changing. It will take some days to do it right. I'd start now and hope to be done my the first of the year. Yes, if you do it right it takes time. Not whole gobs of dedicated times, but many sessions of review and tweaking.

The thing about doing that. Is that you CAN end up with a list of lifetime goals broken down by intermediate milestones. When I did mine I wound up with:

- Lifetime
- 20 Years
- 10 Years
- 5 Years
- 3 Years
- 1 Year
- 6 Months
- 3 Months
- 1 Month
- Weekly

With that kind of a structure, the long term goals were supported by the shorter term ones and on my weekly reviews I only had to look at my one month list to get it worked out. Monthly I only needed to look at my 3 months list to keep that in shape. Periodically I would look at the longer frames and generally tweak things ... but not often. The longer term goals take care of themselves if you have them fully supported by the short term ones.

And please note, there is no MUST in any of it. If you don't feel like working on tasks this week (or for several months) that support some 10 year goal, who cares? The only thing is that you will at least KNOW what you are doing ... and perhaps decide that your long term goals have changed.

>>> A low standard for happiness. That's it. I couldn't figure out why my easy-going, always content girlfriends could be okay with not dusting for example. Or not making five salads for a dinner party when just one would do. I've always felt compelled to do more. <<<

Yes. It is so easy to hear that as a "low PERSONAL standard". But it is only low as regards to what will make you HAPPY. A good example was my packing for this trip. I took several books, my notebook computer, pads of paper, an assortment of pens ... you know how it goes ;-) I'm at the end of my trip now and have only worked on ONE of the books I brought. I briefly scanned another. I have made good notes on the first but not done the mind map I really want. I have not done a second read yet either. I've touched nothing else. BUT ... I am quite content with what I've done. I am not chewing my nails in angst over my miserable failure as a human being because I have not even looked at the other SIX books I hauled along in the car ;-) ;-)

"But if you accept such a short fall you'll never get anything done!" Errr... so what? I'm not living this life to prove things to people. I'm getting done what I want to get done as revised by life's events. What else can any of us do and retain our sanity? ;-)

>>> As for determining what makes a person successful, we're nearly always wrong. Even when we're given the right answer, we tend to dismiss it. Why is Tiger Woods so good at golf? Because he started playing at 2. No, that's not it. It's the clubs. LOL <<<

Well, the problem is that there are so many standards for success. Likely as not Tiger is successful because he started so young and his standard for being a "good person" in the eyes of his father was to excel at golf. Starting that young probably installed that so deeply in his subconscious that now the basic standard of happiness for him is golf. Just speculating, of course ... he is not about to reveal that much about himself.

>>> Another mental technique I've used for determining what I really need to keep is to imagine that I'm going to live in a small condo for a couple of years. What would I really need? Mike, you wouldn't be sad about losing your pictures and mementos? <<<

Well, to start with, remember that I'm an E5w6. We don't get that much attached to things. We CAN, in a WAY. It is hard to describe. I do have lots of STUFF that I am attached to, but that is only at the surface. I could walk away from it all and live on an island in the South Pacific with only a stick to draw on the sand with. I really could, as odd as that might sound to some. I'd miss my books for a bit, but most of that stuff is in my mind now and I mostly just make new connections among the material I already have in there. I find that there is very little new under the sun and after all these years, I've seen and heard most of it.

I'd miss my cats though. I HAVE to have my cats ;-)

Mike, happy Thanksgiving! And safe travels.

I've read Lakein (on your recommendation) and other stuff like this and the problem I have right now is that I no longer have the same goal-driven mindset I once had. I used to LOVE that stuff. I would spend my vacation filling notebooks with goals using every time frame. Now I can't think of any lifetime goals I have that lend themselves to that framework. For example, I want to raise and educate my kids well. I want to have a lower standard for happiness and go easier on myself.

I've done everything that I really, really wanted to do: got a Ph.D., got married, had kids, homeschooled, had a baby at home, taught in the university, wrote a book, became a speaker, gotten in great shape, developed lots and lots of programs and coordinated tons of events. I've traveled around the world. I've read lots of books. Now I'm working on a goal that wasn't even a burning passion--writing a novel. I do love it and don't know where it will lead, but I could also be okay if it didn't go anywhere.

There are other things I could pursue, sure. But nothing I feel like I want to approach in a Lakein way. And I don't feel depressed or even unmotivated. I just feel content. See I WAS living to prove things to people. Now I'm not. I'm more of an in-the-moment gal than I used to be. I'm a lot like the people I used to look down on--how can they have such low standards? lol Ummm, because they're content!

I'm getting less dependent on my things, too. I always had a list of things I wanted. Now I don't. I have gotten nearly everything I've ever wanted and so many of those things I don't even use. I do enjoy many of them, but the attachment to them is gone.

Guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm changing. Not having the usual family celebration for Thanksgiving has been great. Every year I've had a houseful and was up at 6 a.m. getting the bird in the oven. This year, the turkey is half the size so I could stuff it when my kids were up. What I was missing all those other years of trying to make everything just so for people who honestly don't give a rip about me! Instead I got to experience the joy of my 4yo asking, "Is that turkey dead? He can't hear you talking? What's that red thing? Look at the stuffing! Eww!" LOL It's not the kind of thing that will ever be on a list, is it?

I'll throw it out there that Tiger Woods became Tiger Woods in part through Earl Woods being an estie. I thought this was interesting:

“What I learned through est was that by doing more for myself, I could do much more for others. Yes, be responsible, but love life, and give people the space to be in your life, and allow yourself room to give to others. That caring and sharing is what’s most important, not being responsible for everyone else. Which is where Tiger comes in. What I learned led me to give so much time to Tiger, and to give him the space to be himself, and not to smother him with dos and don’ts. I took out the authority aspect and turned it into companionship. I made myself vulnerable as a parent. When you have to earn respect from your child, rather than demanding it because it’s owed to you as the father, miracles happen. I realized that, through him, the giving could take a quantum leap. What I could do on a limited scale, he could do on a global scale.”

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/features/1996/sportsman/1996.html

Oh sorry Mark, I was being kind of facetious. That's just one of the things he attributed it to, obviously it's a combination of athleticism, an inner drive, parents who could/did spend a lot of time nurturing that talent etc. etc. I know for sure that Walter Gretzky wasn't into est but Wayne turned out pretty ok.

I don't know a thing about golf, and that article and Mark McCormack's books are all I know about golf period. I just thought it was interesting how the dad devoted his whole life to raising a good person and a great golfer.

He also seemed to have the 'seeing the path/goal by looking backwards' that you've mentioned before.

Good Morning Mark,

Yes, exactly. People who are successful don't really know what it is that they do to be successful. Like all of us, they just do what seems natural to them. Some of that causes their success, much of it is just neutral in regard to the particular success they have, and a bit of it works against their success and actually causes them problems.

In addition, if you take a person with a different personality and have him try to apply even those things which you KNOW (putting aside HOW you know it for a second) are responsible for this person's success, they might well be the ruination of the second person. Which is to say that you SHOULD invite the nine who failed!

Beside not knowing what is really responsible for his success, many successful people do not WANT to share ... they see their ability as valuable and don't want to give it away to others. And they do this (not share) by giving misleading information ... consciously or not.

The way you get the information, IMO, is to "model" them. You do this by interviewing many people who have a certain "type" of success. For example, you might interview many business people. To be more accurate, you might limit your study sample to only salesperson's and try to isolate what makes THEM successful. Really, "success in business" is far to broad to model. Salesmen don't have (or need) exactly the same skills as CEOs. In addition, real estate sales people share common basic sales skills with "route salesmen" but have skills unique to that kind of selling. Selling door-to-door is different than selling multi-million dollar items to CEOs.

To do the interview, one has to develop experience in doing exactly that "type" of interview. IOW, one has to have an idea of the most general kinds of things that make people "successful" in whatever they do. (And in this context "success" includes getting results that no one would rationally want ... like psychological disorders. Success only means "efficiently and reliably getting SOME outcome".)

So knowing how people produce results "in general" leads you to know what kinds of questions to ask and where to look. Knowing that, you are able to get a profile of each person and then compare them to each other to find out what is common. For example, in interviewing one baseball star you get a pile of information including that he always wears the same socks without washing them for the whole season. (Ewwww!) No other players do that ... so you throw it out of your list of reasons for success. But looking very deeply at them you might find that each has something similar ... one might tap his bat on his shoe exactly three times, another might cross himself, another spit, etc. Now clearly none of those could be responsible for his success, but perhaps having SOME ritual is what is important ... since all of them do it. In addition, experience in modeling would lead you to notice that quickly and you'd know to ask the right questions to uncover what they are all "feeling" when they are putting on dirty socks or spitting. You'd have learned that it is not so much what they DO, but what that means to them that has importance.

If you wanted to be thorough you might interview baseball players who completely sucked at it. To do it even better you might formulate a theory of "success in baseball" and then, after interviewing successes, then the failures, try training one of the failures according to what you learned from the successful ones and see if you could cause improvement. Basically it is a science project. The problem with success literature is that it is all allegorical. The successful ones write books about themselves which make them important (and make them money) and they don't really know or care what made them successful.

Good Morning Mel,

>>> Mike, happy Thanksgiving! And safe travels. <<<

Thank you. I made it home in one piece. I was answering a post here before I left and then a squirll was traveling the elictric power super highway in the sky, made a wrong turn, got fried, and took out a pole transformer in the process. Of course, while my laptop continued to work the router did not and I had to pack it up and leave things incomplete. It was THAT kind of trip ;-( But otherwise I enjoyed it ;-)

>>> I've read Lakein (on your recommendation) and other stuff like this and the problem I have right now is that I no longer have the same goal-driven mindset I once had. I used to LOVE that stuff. I would spend my vacation filling notebooks with goals using every time frame. Now I can't think of any lifetime goals I have that lend themselves to that framework. <<<

Sounds just like me ;-)

>>> For example, I want to raise and educate my kids well. I want to have a lower standard for happiness and go easier on myself. <<<

But of course, raising the kids well is an important goal that might benefit from some planning. I dunno. I don't have kids ... just cats ;-) But I do get your point.

>>> I've done everything that I really, really wanted to do: got a Ph.D., got married, had kids, homeschooled, had a baby at home, taught in the university, wrote a book, became a speaker, gotten in great shape, developed lots and lots of programs and coordinated tons of events. I've traveled around the world. I've read lots of books. Now I'm working on a goal that wasn't even a burning passion--writing a novel. I do love it and don't know where it will lead, but I could also be okay if it didn't go anywhere. <<<

Actually, I get that. If you have accomplished a lot of things, then you know what goals are and when you need to define them explicitly and when not. Moreover, as in that Asimov quote, if you have worked your goals into your lifestyle, there may indeed be nothing more to do but more of the same.

>>> There are other things I could pursue, sure. But nothing I feel like I want to approach in a Lakein way. And I don't feel depressed or even unmotivated. I just feel content. See I WAS living to prove things to people. Now I'm not. I'm more of an in-the-moment gal than I used to be. I'm a lot like the people I used to look down on--how can they have such low standards? lol Ummm, because they're content! <<<

LOL ;-) Yes the key is happiness. There is noting at all wrong with "Margaretaville" lifestyle.

>>> I'm getting less dependent on my things, too. I always had a list of things I wanted. Now I don't. I have gotten nearly everything I've ever wanted and so many of those things I don't even use. I do enjoy many of them, but the attachment to them is gone. <<<

Yes, that is it with me as well. My wife has finally stopped asking me what I want for Xmas. And I her. We know that we will get what we want if we really want it but otherwise we don't want things just to have things. We are going to get a sound system this year. It is not a burning desire, but her life is music and she should have the highest quality music that is financially reasonable. Over the holidays she was playing Wii Tennis and seemed to really love DOING that. So I might get her a Wii system, not to HAVE it but to DO it. That is the difference I see.

>>> Guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm changing. Not having the usual family celebration for Thanksgiving has been great. Every year I've had a houseful and was up at 6 a.m. getting the bird in the oven. This year, the turkey is half the size so I could stuff it when my kids were up. What I was missing all those other years of trying to make everything just so for people who honestly don't give a rip about me! Instead I got to experience the joy of my 4yo asking, "Is that turkey dead? He can't hear you talking? What's that red thing? Look at the stuffing! Eww!" LOL It's not the kind of thing that will ever be on a list, is it? <<<

No, not at all ;-) But if I were going to raise a child I WOULD have made a major project of learning the best ways to equip the child for whatever kind of success he could have ... as well as finding the best ways to help him experience enough things to be able to decide.

Unlike Tiger Wood's father, I would not be trying to make my kid into something to fulfill my own dreams. IOW, I might see to it that the kid had all kinds of physical experiences, but I would not have him playing golf everyday at the age of two ... unless he threw a tantrum when I took away his clubs. Then I'd take that as a sign ;-)

O.K. A couple more of these and then off to my year end projects lists ;-)

Mel,

Oh, one more thing ...when I recommend Lakein for goal setting, I have in mind someone who has never set goals before. Like you, I have done all of that and I'm now in maintenance mode. Were I to get "the bad news" next week, I'd not go out and buy gear for some new project ... I'd know what to drop and what to spend the rest of my short and valuable time on.

You and I (and some others) are in a different boat than others who are struggling with finding themselves.

For example, I was looking for a better task management system because I was losing time. I knew that because I was monitoring goals and knew things were taking longer than they should. I knew that because I HAD goals. I knew AF would work (as soon as I read about it) because I've done task management any number of ways over the years so I have a well developed intuition in that regard. I knew I had problems with AF the same way. And I knew that I COULD fix them without throwing out the whole system for the same reasons,

Now I'm tackling procrastination head on and I have the same intuitions to guide me there so I'll have that under control soon enough ... AND, I'll navigate the inevitable false starts because of the same kind of intuition based on the same life experiences.

To those "young 'uns" ;-) out there who are struggling, let me just say: "Be of good cheer, it DOES get easier as you go."

Agree, Mel?

Mike - I wonder if it's symbolic that the squirrel got fried? :-) As always, if I wait long enough you will say what I'm thinking better than I. It sounds like you've been reading Emotional Hostage. What are you doing method-wise w.r.t. procrastination?