FV and FVP Forum > "Love ________, then do whatever you want": Structured Wanting
nuntym: "Love God, then do whatever you want." - I thought it was "Love God and do what you LIKE" ie. what you would love, what would be an expression of love - to yourself and others. Following your bliss as Joseph Campbell put it.
<<tweaking MYSELF so I can use the system >> I agree with this idea. I think Mark's question(s) are a moment of introspection (contemplation) to allow inspiration. It would be interesting to experiment with various ways of "tweaking oneself. As I said in
http://markforster.squarespace.com/forum/post/1752769
"So in timing-management from the inside-out our story and mantrum is:
"I like to live in order and feel on top of things and feel peace in knowing that nothing is being overlooked, I like things to go well in a relaxed and flowing way, I also like to feel free to drift and be lazy and have fun and take pleasure. I like to know nothing is being left out or forgotten and that I will do the perfect thing at the perfect moment""
The aim is flow, peace, balance and possibly inspiration.
<<tweaking MYSELF so I can use the system >> I agree with this idea. I think Mark's question(s) are a moment of introspection (contemplation) to allow inspiration. It would be interesting to experiment with various ways of "tweaking oneself. As I said in
http://markforster.squarespace.com/forum/post/1752769
"So in timing-management from the inside-out our story and mantrum is:
"I like to live in order and feel on top of things and feel peace in knowing that nothing is being overlooked, I like things to go well in a relaxed and flowing way, I also like to feel free to drift and be lazy and have fun and take pleasure. I like to know nothing is being left out or forgotten and that I will do the perfect thing at the perfect moment""
The aim is flow, peace, balance and possibly inspiration.
March 15, 2012 at 16:01 |
michael
michael
+JMJ+
@michael: <<I thought it was "Love God and do what you LIKE">>
Actually the Latin version is this: Dilige et quod vis fac. You may notice that "God" is not even there. In context:
"Love, and do what you will: whether you hold your peace, through love hold your peace; whether you cry out, through love cry out; whether you correct, through love correct; whether you spare, through love do you spare: let the root of love be within, of this root can nothing spring but what is good." http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/170207.htm
However, looking at its context, "Love God" is still poetically accurate.
"Love God and do what you like" is a rarer translation than "Love God and do what you want" I think for the mere fact that "want" is more action oriented. You may "like" something, but you don't necessarily "want" to get it. However, if you "want" something, it is a chore NOT to strive for it.
Christianity is a very passionate, action-oriented religion. "The kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and men of violence take it by force" (Matthew 11:12) and all that.
@michael: <<I thought it was "Love God and do what you LIKE">>
Actually the Latin version is this: Dilige et quod vis fac. You may notice that "God" is not even there. In context:
"Love, and do what you will: whether you hold your peace, through love hold your peace; whether you cry out, through love cry out; whether you correct, through love correct; whether you spare, through love do you spare: let the root of love be within, of this root can nothing spring but what is good." http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/170207.htm
However, looking at its context, "Love God" is still poetically accurate.
"Love God and do what you like" is a rarer translation than "Love God and do what you want" I think for the mere fact that "want" is more action oriented. You may "like" something, but you don't necessarily "want" to get it. However, if you "want" something, it is a chore NOT to strive for it.
Christianity is a very passionate, action-oriented religion. "The kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and men of violence take it by force" (Matthew 11:12) and all that.
March 15, 2012 at 16:31 |
nuntym
nuntym
Christian philosopher Dallas Willard had a similar theme in his Renovation of the Heart. He argued that the solution to Paul's complaint "I do not do what I want" starts with the heart. You must learn (by the Spirit) to have the proper heart desires. This will emanate through your spirit to successively transform your mind, your will, your actions, and your environment, neighborhood, and world. Again, start with the heart. To start with the mind or will leads to internal discord that will lead to self-defeat. (Rational thought is still essential to the process.)
March 15, 2012 at 17:27 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
I think it's a question of the mind keeping up with the heart. The heart has desires we want to fulfill. Our habits of thought lag behind that so we have discord. If the will or mind is not aligning with the heart we have discord. For example, excess worry leads to a physical condition. The doctor can then alleviate symptoms, but the worry generates another condition (sometimes).
March 15, 2012 at 17:57 |
michael
michael
Okay, but first it's necessary to get the heart whole. We carry within ourselves ideas like Love God and Love Pleasure and Be Somebody which if not properly situated drive us to evils like laziness or overwork or hatred to someone who gets in our way.
March 15, 2012 at 19:13 |
Alan Baljeu
Alan Baljeu
nuntym:
<< My making of SISIN actually stemmed from a growing distrust of the "I want" paradigm of time management >>
I get the impression that you are tending to interpret the question as meaning:
"What do I want to do *more* than x?"
This is not a legitimate meaning of the question, and I have already pulled several people up for quoting it this way.
If you are having trouble with this, then I suggest you start off by doing the tasks in the order in which they are written in your notebook and forget about the question altogether. Then when you find that you want (for whatever reason) to do another task before you do one of these tasks, put a dot in front of it and do it first. Build up gradually from there.
<< My making of SISIN actually stemmed from a growing distrust of the "I want" paradigm of time management >>
I get the impression that you are tending to interpret the question as meaning:
"What do I want to do *more* than x?"
This is not a legitimate meaning of the question, and I have already pulled several people up for quoting it this way.
If you are having trouble with this, then I suggest you start off by doing the tasks in the order in which they are written in your notebook and forget about the question altogether. Then when you find that you want (for whatever reason) to do another task before you do one of these tasks, put a dot in front of it and do it first. Build up gradually from there.
March 16, 2012 at 1:24 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
The context of the St Augustine quote is important:
"Once for all, then, a short precept is given thee: Love, and do what thou wilt: whether thou hold thy peace, through love hold thy peace; whether thou cry out, through love cry out; whether thou correct, through love correct; whether thou spare, through love do thou spare: let the root of love be within, of this root can nothing spring but what is good."
The full quote makes it clear that he wasn't offering advice on how to decide what to do next (If you love God, you'll know what to do) or saying that it doesn't matter what you do as long as you love God (Love God and then you can do whatever you like). What he was saying was that whatever a Christian does he should do it through through the attitude of love (Love God, and whatever you find yourself having to do, do it as an expression of that love).
St Augustine wasn't a very systematic writer. He tended to rattle stuff off from the top of his head without much revision - so it's never wise to put too much weight on one sentence, especially when taken out of context.
"Once for all, then, a short precept is given thee: Love, and do what thou wilt: whether thou hold thy peace, through love hold thy peace; whether thou cry out, through love cry out; whether thou correct, through love correct; whether thou spare, through love do thou spare: let the root of love be within, of this root can nothing spring but what is good."
The full quote makes it clear that he wasn't offering advice on how to decide what to do next (If you love God, you'll know what to do) or saying that it doesn't matter what you do as long as you love God (Love God and then you can do whatever you like). What he was saying was that whatever a Christian does he should do it through through the attitude of love (Love God, and whatever you find yourself having to do, do it as an expression of that love).
St Augustine wasn't a very systematic writer. He tended to rattle stuff off from the top of his head without much revision - so it's never wise to put too much weight on one sentence, especially when taken out of context.
March 16, 2012 at 1:35 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
+JMJ+
Actually Mark, I did post the same context in the third post above. And what we have posted isn't even the whole context either. It is this:
"In the case where they are diverse, we find a man by charity made fierce; and by iniquity made winningly gentle. A father beats a boy, and a boy-stealer caresses. If you name the two things, blows and caresses, who would not choose the caresses, and decline the blows? If you mark the persons, it is charity that beats, iniquity that caresses. See what we are insisting upon; that the deeds of men are only discerned by the root of charity. For many things may be done that have a good appearance, and yet proceed not from the root of charity. For thorns also have flowers: some actions truly seem rough, seem savage; howbeit they are done for discipline at the bidding of charity. Once for all, then, a short precept is given you: Love, and do what you will: whether you hold your peace, through love hold your peace; whether you cry out, through love cry out; whether you correct, through love correct; whether you spare, through love do you spare: let the root of love be within, of this root can nothing spring but what is good." http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/170207.htm
It is clear from St. Augustine's text that he said that not only does charity (true love of God and man) give us the ATTITUDE to do what needs to be done, charity also guides us on WHAT needs to be done. "See what we are insisting upon; that the deeds of men are only discerned by the root of charity," as pointed out by St. Augustine. Therefore, the interpretations of "If you love God, you'll know what to do" as well as "Love God, and whatever you do, do it as an expression of that love" are both correct.
Actually Mark, I did post the same context in the third post above. And what we have posted isn't even the whole context either. It is this:
"In the case where they are diverse, we find a man by charity made fierce; and by iniquity made winningly gentle. A father beats a boy, and a boy-stealer caresses. If you name the two things, blows and caresses, who would not choose the caresses, and decline the blows? If you mark the persons, it is charity that beats, iniquity that caresses. See what we are insisting upon; that the deeds of men are only discerned by the root of charity. For many things may be done that have a good appearance, and yet proceed not from the root of charity. For thorns also have flowers: some actions truly seem rough, seem savage; howbeit they are done for discipline at the bidding of charity. Once for all, then, a short precept is given you: Love, and do what you will: whether you hold your peace, through love hold your peace; whether you cry out, through love cry out; whether you correct, through love correct; whether you spare, through love do you spare: let the root of love be within, of this root can nothing spring but what is good." http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/170207.htm
It is clear from St. Augustine's text that he said that not only does charity (true love of God and man) give us the ATTITUDE to do what needs to be done, charity also guides us on WHAT needs to be done. "See what we are insisting upon; that the deeds of men are only discerned by the root of charity," as pointed out by St. Augustine. Therefore, the interpretations of "If you love God, you'll know what to do" as well as "Love God, and whatever you do, do it as an expression of that love" are both correct.
March 16, 2012 at 2:36 |
nuntym
nuntym
+JMJ+
Mark: <<I get the impression that you are tending to interpret the question as meaning:
"What do I want to do *more* than x?">>
Not really. I have gotten used, using SISIN, to purely look at the urgency of tasks instead of just looking at whether I want to do something or not. SISIN's algorithm is "Should I start it now?" (SISIN is actually an acronym). However, translating FV's algorithm to something like SISIN, "What should I start before x?" is actually kinda near to FV's original algorithm. Hmmm....
Mark: <<I get the impression that you are tending to interpret the question as meaning:
"What do I want to do *more* than x?">>
Not really. I have gotten used, using SISIN, to purely look at the urgency of tasks instead of just looking at whether I want to do something or not. SISIN's algorithm is "Should I start it now?" (SISIN is actually an acronym). However, translating FV's algorithm to something like SISIN, "What should I start before x?" is actually kinda near to FV's original algorithm. Hmmm....
March 16, 2012 at 3:03 |
nuntym
nuntym
nuntym:
<< Actually Mark, I did post the same context in the third post above. >>
Yes, I know.
<< And what we have posted isn't even the whole context either. It is this... >>
Thanks for that. Very contrary to modern thought which can understand the falseness of the caresses of the child stealer, but is incapable of understanding the beating by the loving father.
<< Actually Mark, I did post the same context in the third post above. >>
Yes, I know.
<< And what we have posted isn't even the whole context either. It is this... >>
Thanks for that. Very contrary to modern thought which can understand the falseness of the caresses of the child stealer, but is incapable of understanding the beating by the loving father.
March 16, 2012 at 8:12 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
nuntym:
I would regard "What should I start before x?" as being very close to "What do I want to do before x?" Personally I prefer the second because I want to get away from the connotations of "should".
Note my use of "want" in the second sentence above. Would it be quite the same if I had said "because I should get away from the connotations of "want"? I'll leave you to puzzle that one out!
I would regard "What should I start before x?" as being very close to "What do I want to do before x?" Personally I prefer the second because I want to get away from the connotations of "should".
Note my use of "want" in the second sentence above. Would it be quite the same if I had said "because I should get away from the connotations of "want"? I'll leave you to puzzle that one out!
March 16, 2012 at 8:20 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
I've found (and posted earlier today), that when time is short, "before" includes a healthy dose of "instead of" -- but only when time is short. Is that still within your intention? (If not, how do we deal with limited time without frequent use of the escape clause?)
March 16, 2012 at 13:16 |
Cricket
Cricket
Cricket:
if time is short to get x done, then presumably you want to get it done in the time available. So presumably you also want to keep the number of tasks you do before it to a minimum.
if time is short to get x done, then presumably you want to get it done in the time available. So presumably you also want to keep the number of tasks you do before it to a minimum.
March 17, 2012 at 13:16 |
Mark Forster
Mark Forster
+JMJ+
It has taken me some time to realize why I like an algorithm that uses "should" instead of "want", and I realize it is because of my peculiar personality: I need to experience something before I could know I want that something. And in retrospect, that algorithm "Should I start it now?" for SISIN is perfect for that kind of personality, as it helps me be forced to "taste" a task before I could give my whole heart into it.
It has taken me some time to realize why I like an algorithm that uses "should" instead of "want", and I realize it is because of my peculiar personality: I need to experience something before I could know I want that something. And in retrospect, that algorithm "Should I start it now?" for SISIN is perfect for that kind of personality, as it helps me be forced to "taste" a task before I could give my whole heart into it.
March 20, 2012 at 16:03 |
nuntym
nuntym
In all honesty, I had problems starting out with FV. SISIN, the system I was using before FV,
http://markforster.squarespace.com/forum/post/1740352
has actually worked very well for me, however I had a few snags with the ordering of preselected tasks. FV on first glance seemed to have this ordering pat down, so I started a new list from scratch.
There was a problem, however: My making of SISIN actually stemmed from a growing distrust of the "I want" paradigm of time management, which was what AF/SF/DWM breaks down to for me...and is what is central to FV.
Of course I could have just changed the FV algorithm to "What do I NEED to do before x?" However, it did not sit well for me because I would be tweaking the system even before I tried it, so I just started using it as is. And ohhhhh boy, what a mess: I could not trust the system; there were even times I had to force myself to open my notebook! I was seriously tempted to try the tweak or go back to SISIN before I could truly test FV.
Then while reading online, I came across one of St. Augustine's maxims, which could be translated as "Love God, then do whatever you want." The saying has been familiar to me, but I had never tried to understand it deeply before. Now, however, the maxim seemed very relevant to my problem at hand, so I tried to dig deeper into it.
Upon reading commentaries on this saying, I came to understand that "Love God, then do whatever you want" actually stems from one psychological fact: ALL of our wants are STRUCTURED around or FLOWS from ONE fundamental want. This opened up my eyes on the psychological reasons why I developed SISIN, and why it worked for me.
Before, while I was using AF and its variants, my most fundamental want was <<excellence with comfort>>: the "standing out" process picked out the items that provided me the best comfort, i.e. the easiest items, while hoping that those tasks I chose would still make me great. However, the fundamental want was hopelessly illogical, and thus it was not surprising that all my attempts at AF/SF/DWM were less than stellar.
Disgusted with the results, I subconsciously started to change my fundamental want from <<excellence with comfort>> with <<excellence at all costs>>. I then subconsciously attached my previous fundamental want with "I want", and the emerging fundamental want with "I need". And thus in this subconscious milieu SISIN emerged.
So starting yesterday I tried this method:
1) Write at the beginning of each page ILGNC, abbreviation for "I love greatness, not comfort" or "I love God, not comfort", according to what mood I had.
2) Before each preselection process, I read the abbreviation, recite in my head what it means, and be convinced that THIS is what I fundamentally want. I will do anything and use anything to convince myself of this. I will not go to the next step until I am totally convinced that THIS is what I fundamentally want.
3) Do FV as originally described by Mark Forster.
And it was smooth sailing from then on.
And no, I do not think this is tweaking the system, but rather, tweaking MYSELF so I can use the system ^___^
If you want to use this then think of your highest ideal, then make it concrete in your head, then do the above. And you know what, I think one can combine FV and "How To Make Your Dreams Come True" using this.
POSTSCRIPT: "The ways of the Lord are not comfortable, but we were not created for comfort, but for greatness." --- Pope Benedict XVI