Which is the Best System?

Everyone will have their own answer to this question. This is my answer for me and is not intended to disrupt anyone who has already found a method which suits them well.

I have spent most of the lockdown comparing the different dynamics of the most popular systems which have been promulgated on this website or in my books. I haven’t made any attempt to compare them with methods published elsewhere.

The first question I asked myself was “Which is best, No List, Day List, Long List or no time management system at all?

The vast majority of people in the world get on perfectly well without any time management system at all or with perhaps a few reminders at best. So the next question I had to ask myself was “Would I get on better with no system at all?”. In my case that is not a difficult question to answer. Long experience has taught me that without some form of system I very quickly descend into chaos. In fact that’s why I started investigating time management systems in the first place. For me, any system is better than no system.

So having established that I am much more effective with a system than without one, the next question was which type of system is best? No list, day list or long list?

I won’t go into all the ins and outs of my comparisons. Enough to say that long list was the clear winner, provided that: 

• The list is comprehensive (which doesn’t mean it can’t be built up over a period)
• There is no chopping and changing of systems. By their very nature, long list systems need time to mature.
• The list is worked intuitively.

So the next question was naturally “Which is the best long list system for me”?

The most basic is Simple Scanning. I have in the past considered this to be the best as well as the simplest system. But it does have some disadvantages: 

• It’s boring. This may sound a rather frivolous reason but one of the characteristics of a good system is that it maintains interest and motivation. Just going round and round a list gets to be a bit mind-numbing.
• There’s not enough encouragement to get moving on tasks which have been on the list for a long time.
• There’s also not enough encouragement to keep moving on tasks or projects which have been started

I don’t intend to review all the many long-list methods on this site. So I’ll move straight on to the winner, which is The Final Version Perfected (FVP). Why do I consider that to be better (a lot better) than Simple Scanning? 

• It’s not boring. The way the list is processed keeps interest alive and encourages engagement with the individual tasks on the list as well as the list as a whole.
• The sorting method is designed so that every task on the list will get dealt with. The progress towards the early tasks on the list is inevitable. The algorithm used ensures this. So indefinite skipping over tasks is not possible.
• Once a task starts moving, the pressure is kept up on it until it is completed. This applies whether it is a new or an old task. It will deal equally well with small routine tasks and major projects. What’s more there is no need to differentiate between these when working the list. 

One can get through an immense amount of work using this method.  

I have found that the best and quickest way to use the list is not to use a question, but simply to use “standing out”. If you work it consistently the list will find its own balance.

N.B. I’ve been having problems getting the blog editor to open which has resulted in my not being able to add links to this post. I’ll add links as and when the glitch clears. Meanwhile you are advised to use the search box in the right margin to find the meaning of any terms you don’t understand.

Comments

[Cameron]

Interesting! I love simple scanning for, well, its simplicity. But I agree sometimes it can get a little boring. I still give it a 9/10.

I’m going to give FVP a try. Never have. I like the amendment to “standing out” over “what do I want to do more than X”.

Thanks Mark!

[Ray FOwler]

Fascinating! No List still works great for me. I love building the list from scratch each day, and everything on the list gets done, because it doesn't go on the list unless I start doing it! I do keep a backlog of tasks in ToDoist to make sure that it's all written down somewhere, but for daily processing I just build my list as I go.

[Chino]

Seeing the post I will stick to FVP for now and try will use Simple Scanning if I want a simpler method on that moment.

[Brian]

Very glad to see FVP reclaim its position at the top. I always thought it was the best, though you had me at AF1...

[vegheadjones]

I'm another big fan of FVP, and the reasons you cite resonate with me.

Since I am focusing on push mode during the pandemic, I have been using an FV hybrid this past week and plan on continuing it.

Like FV, I have a dotted list. Unlike FV I pull that list from my book and put on an index card every morning. New tasks (and tasks worked on today) go into my book with today's date. Like FVP after I work on a dotted task, I scan down but I only scan on today's items in my book.

This way I capture the prioritization of the day with the flexibility of new tasks/priorities. this system definitely misses out on some of the fun aspect Mark lists above, but it is helping me focus on what I need to yet be dynamic enough to allow for the modifications.

[Cameron]

I've gone back and read the original post on FVP and its comments. There is a recommendation that if the current selection ever gets out of date, to reprioritize. How exactly is this done? If I've got a bunch of items dotted with pen, do I simply rewrite them at the end of my list and cross them out? Then re-dot my items that stand out from the new first item?

[Cameron]

It seems that FVP helps prevent items from lingering forever on the list by always dotting the first. But it also emphasizes the end of the list getting done faster since items near the end get passed much more often than those at the start. Perhaps a system exists like this already, but what about this hybrid:

Use simple scanning plus:

1. Always dot the first item on the list when passing over it.

2. When you reach the end of the list, circle round to the beginning of the last full page. Keep circulating in this way, until you have done a complete pass from the last full page to the end without any tasks being done. At that point, circle round to the beginning of the entire long list. (Then dot the first item of the long as as per 1.)

It seems that this is similar to AF4 (which I've never used, so correct me if I'm wrong) except that instead of the backlog being passed over time and time again, it is the end of the list. In this way the end of the list—which is often the most urgent and immediately relevant items—get worked more often the first, but the first item will also always get actioned.

[Mark Forster]

Cameron:

<< There is a recommendation that if the current selection ever gets out of date, to reprioritize. How exactly is this done? >>

There are two ways you can do it.

1) Scribble out the existing dots (except for the first one which remains the same) and then re-dot from the beginning of the list.

2) Cross out all the existing dotted tasks (including the first one) and re-enter them (without dots) at the end of the list. Then go through the list dotting all tasks that stand out.

[Mark Forster]

Cameron:

<< what about this hybrid? >>

Sorry, you are going to have to explain it more clearly than that if I'm going to understand it.

[Tron]

Hi Mark,

I just wanted to confirm two things with these one-list systems. First, do you just keep all projects and tasks on the same list? There is no separate list of your active projects in this system?

Second, what do you do with recurring tasks like clear email? After complete do you just rewrite to the end of the list?

Many thanks,

Tron

[Alan Baljeu]

Tron, you will find Mark’s answers to both in the menu bar at the top, by clicking Final Version FAQs. To put it briefly: projects and small tasks both go in, no distinction. Recurring tasks reenter at the end. Alternatively don’t, but add again when you are otherwise reminded you need to be checking email.

[Alan Baljeu]

Mark, when no question is used, is Standout considered with The last dotted task active in mind, or ?

[Gadgets]

Mark

Thank you for posting this.

In the comments to your blog post “Simple scanning - the rules”, you said:

“In fact I don't re-read it very often because working the list imprints it pretty firmly in one's mind. I usually do it only when I've been away a couple of days or more.

Essentially the principle is to read it through whenever you feel you need to. That of course will vary from person to person.”

Do you find this to be the case with FVP as well please?

[Alan Baljeu]

I suspect Mark completes his selections every day. And when he does, the rules bid him to scan the entire list, so in that way, yes. Because it's a selection process, as opposed to an action process like Simple Scanning has, you don't need to worry about not seeing everything. However, if you are a long time mired in the depths of the list, then you may forget about the older ones and that's where the "If you find that your preselected list is no longer relevant" rule comes in.

P.S. IF ANYBODY IS SEARCHING FOR THE RULES OF FVP:

It is not in the List of TM systems at the top, and not in the FV newsletter at the top.
It is in the list of "Most Popular" articles on the right.

[Seraphim]

Mark -

Great to hear. I've always liked FVP. I used it for over a year at one point.

Do you use the "Fast FVP" rule? http://markforster.squarespace.com/blog/2018/1/6/change-to-fast-fvp.html

[Seraphim]

I've written a lot about different nuances to the FVP system. Maybe some folks will find these useful.

A bunch of really useful FVP links - http://markforster.squarespace.com/fv-forum/post/2529202

The freedom of FVP - http://markforster.squarespace.com/fv-forum/post/2533207

How FVP reduces WIP and encourages focus - http://markforster.squarespace.com/fv-forum/post/2531059

Using FVP to find items for meeting agendas and to capture meeting notes and action items - http://markforster.squarespace.com/fv-forum/post/2537533

How "no-question FVP" is similar to Randomizer in eliminating resistance - http://markforster.squarespace.com/fv-forum/post/2518514

The ease of context switching with FVP (and combining work/personal in one list) - http://markforster.squarespace.com/fv-forum/post/2528739

Handling projects in FVP - http://markforster.squarespace.com/fv-forum/post/2528911

Observations on my first trial run with FVP - http://markforster.squarespace.com/fv-forum/post/2506535

Combining FVP with the idea of a "current initiative" to get more focus on the "big things" - http://markforster.squarespace.com/fv-forum/post/2560976

A general problem-solving method inspired by FVP - http://markforster.squarespace.com/fv-forum/post/2638237

[Mark Forster]

The Squarespace Editor has relented enough for me to enter the links for the instructions for Simple Scanning and FVP.

[Mark Forster]

Seraphim:

<< Do you use the "Fast FVP" rule? >>

Not at the moment, no. I'm using FVP as originally written, except that I'm just working on "standing out" having instructed my brain to keep an eye on how long it's going to take to get to previously dotted tasks. I find that to be almost as fast as "Fast FVP" with the advantage that I can just let my mind get on with it without me having to be involved too much.

Does that make sense? Probably not!

[Alan Baljeu]

Yes, it's a mental trick to compare thd previously selected task witb the tasks after the latest completed task, whic is distinct from the lowedt completed task. Much easier mentally to only compare the previous selected task with everything after that.

[Seraphim]

Mark Forster wrote:
*** Does that make sense? Probably not! ***

I felt like I was beginning to understand - a light started to shine in my mind - but then it went out. LOL

It sounds intriguing - can you explain a bit more?

[Mark Forster]

Alan Baljeu:

<< Much easier mentally to only compare the previous selected task with everything after that.>>

It is slightly easier mentally, yes, but it involves a lot more scanning.

Remember that FVP is based on a sorting algorithm. If you do it from the previously selected task, the algorithm still works but you have to do a lot more comparisons. Speed is everything with sorting algorithms.

[Mark Forster]

Seraphim:

<< I felt like I was beginning to understand - a light started to shine in my mind - but then it went out.>>

That's a pity! Let's see if I can explain it a bit better.

At the moment I am using FVP on sheets of unlined A4 paper, four columns to the page. That means I have about 30 tasks per column totalling 120 tasks per page. As I write on both sides of the paper I have 240 tasks per sheet. That means that all my unactioned tasks (usually about 80) are contained on one or two sheets of paper.

I can therefore very easily glance rapidly down the whole active list and see where the unactioned dotted tasks are. This is helped by the fact that I join completed adjacent tasks with a vertical line so that the unactioned tasks can be easily seen. (This trick has been mentioned numerous times on this blog. I can't remember who invented it - it wasn't me).

I only need to glance occasionally, but it means that I am always aware of what the first two or three dotted tasks are. So it's like knowing that you've got to mow the lawn before it gets dark, but you've still got time to do some more urgent tasks before you start. You don't have to say every time you start a task "Have I got time to do x before I mow the lawn?" You just know.

Does that help?

[Mark Forster]

Alan Baljeu:

One additional point to my previous reply.

Try sorting a list of 20 or so random numbers with the FVP algorithm using both methods and you'll see what I mean.

[Alan Baljeu]

What I don't see is that you stated you are not using the Fast algorithm, and you have only followed up with reasons why you should use it.

[Sathya]

Hi

Great to see you writing again and experimenting again, Mark.

Just started curating all the various methods you experimented here, trying to synthesize and making it easy to navigate and jump to, based one's need and interest.

It's just a beginning, could be expanded more, thanks to Notion's power.

Let me know what you & fellow productivity nerds think.

https://www.notion.so/sathya2020/Mark-Forster-s-Productivity-Systems-335466c06e5745d78fbf0248d12eb983

[Sathya]

Good to see you experimenting and writing again, Mark

Curating list of all your techniques for easy reference.
https://www.notion.so/sathya2020/Mark-Forster-s-Productivity-Systems-335466c06e5745d78fbf0248d12eb983

Let me know what you think.
Fellow followers - please do share your suggestions too.

[Mark Forster]

<< What I don't see is that you stated you are not using the Fast algorithm >>

That's correct. I'm not using the Fast algorithm. The fast algorithm is that, when you are scanning down the list dotting tasks, you can if you wish do the task you have just dotted instead of continuing dotting to the end of the list. That is not what I'm doing.

All I am saying is that if I keep myself aware of what dotted tasks there are in the early part of the list then I don't need to specifically compare tasks when I dot them as I will have a good idea of what the time and other factors are.

As I said, this is almost as fast as Fast FVP and doesn't require much mental effort.

[Sathya]

Good to see you experimenting & writing again.

Started curating various productivity systems.
https://www.notion.so/sathya2020/Mark-Forster-s-Productivity-Systems-335466c06e5745d78fbf0248d12eb983

Let me know your feedback

[Seraphim]

Mark -

<< You don't have to say every time you start a task "Have I got time to do x before I mow the lawn?" You just know. >>

Thanks for this explanation - very helpful!

It reminds me a lot of my need to always be aware of my full context, in order to maintain intuition, and for "standing out" to work properly.

http://markforster.squarespace.com/forum/post/2725827
http://markforster.squarespace.com/forum/post/2736315#post2751887


I am wondering if I should try something similar. Right now I have been using a dated journal for my task notebook, and sometimes it feels like the list is chopped up into unrelated sections.

[Alan Baljeu]

This detail strikes me as immensely important. It's not as good to just know the last dotted item as it is to know all the items dotted. That would help clarify the next step. It matters because although you may have originally decided you'd like to do A before B, time has passed and although A could wait, B cannot any more. Therefore in this situation, you may choose not to pick up C, so that you can follow through and finish both A and B. The right decision depends on awareness of both.

Having about 20 items on my phone, I cannot see even all of these at once unlike this A4 Mark has which can show multiples more than 20 at a glance. I've never used a large sheet before. Always preferred something super portable. I guess it's easy enough to fold a sheet and pocket a pencil and use a random surface for writing. That would be different. (for me).

[Christopher]

> Always preferred something super portable. I guess it's easy enough to fold a sheet and pocket a pencil and use a random surface for writing. That would be different. (for me).

Do you remember the Hipster PDA?

[Christopher]

Seraphim:

> Right now I have been using a dated journal for my task notebook, and sometimes it feels like the list is chopped up into unrelated sections.

The clumbing effect should deal with that over time. A matured long list will show the related items nearby.

[Nico from Sydney]

Hi Mark, been following your blog for many years and has gone through most of your systems. Also tried some of my own systems, bullet journal, time blocking and so on. I do however have come full circle back to FVP and it gives me the most productivity but also a sense of calm that I am covering it all.

Practically, I use a A5 notebook. The right hand page is my FVP list. On the left hand side I divide the page in 2. The top left part is for notes (like meeting notes or facts I want to remember). Left bottom is for scribble or temporary holding of data.

Attached a link of how my page looks like

https://photos.app.goo.gl/dE7aJege6UenjrHw6

[Mark Forster]

Nico:

Thanks for the photo. That looks like a good system.

You seem to be using more than the standard dots for the FVP page. I assume the dashes are just to make the tasks stand out a bit more, but what are the stars for?

How's things in Sydney? My daughter is having a rough time of it on the Victoria/NSW border. Half her clients (physiotherapy) are the wrong side of the border. She's had three fires through her property, a flood, the lock-down, and the last I heard there was a flood warning for the Upper Murray where she lives. And in addition to all that she's had to home-school three very lively children!

[Roger Jones]

Nico, I too have been along other routes, such as bullet journaling, electronic tasks etc, but to no avail in Getting Everything Done.

After a lengthy absence, I have started using FVP manually and made some progress. The photo of your A5 pages is interesting. For myself, I prefer to have a continuum of tasks in FVP an am using an old notebook with some blank pages while to settle in to FVP.

I have been keeping a COVID-19 diary in which I have been recording my story, feelings etc. Today's entry is for Day127 of an original 84 day lockdown. My good wife has a couple of major medical issues and I was designated as her carer for the lockdown. After 50 years of marriage, it was appropriate for me.

My A5 CV19 diary notebook is almost full. I will get another A5 notebook in which to record FVP tasks from the beginning. By flipping the notebook over, I can continue my CV19 log/diary and also use that location for the the items you mention, meeting notes, rough notes etc.

As for routine tasks and project tasks, I am using Microsoft To Do with reminders so that I can copy the next steps into my current FVP manual list.

[Cameron]

Mark, would you say that "FVP standing out" is slightly different than "simple scanning standing out"? The latter says "work me now", but the former still requires some comparisons. There is interplay among the dotted items and how much they stand out in FVP. If there is an item that you'd really like get to near the start of your list, you're definitely going to keep that in mind as you continually review the end of your list.

Also, you said "Sorry, you are going to have to explain it more clearly than that if I'm going to understand it.". It's probably not worth a more detailed explanation right now. If I test it and it works, I'll post to an entry to the forum under this topic.

Scribbling out the dots sounds like it would create a lot of visual clutter. Perhaps I move to erasable pen? Please don't take away my Pilot G2 pen.

[Nico from Sydney]

Mark,

The dashes are just too indicate a new task. Not really needed, but a habit of mine when starting a new task. Stars are only to indicate tasks that definately needs to be done today. I also think this is not really required, but it gives me a extra level of comfort if I see the day has no stars and I am not chasing a deadline.

Yes 2020 has been a very interesting year for the world and more so for Sydney/Aus with the massive bushfires. I can remember one day in Sydney where the visibility was about 5meters with all the smog. Not healthy! I assume history books in the future will have one chapter deviated to 2020!

Another topic, have you thought about setting up a zoom call. I am sure it will be interesting to have a discussion about fvp and time management in general. I am more than willing to help to set it up if you require.

[Nico from Sydney]

Roger, I use Microsoft ToDo for the same purpose!

Interesting idea of flipping the book around for a journal. I am just always worrying about physical journals that someone will read my crazy musings 😜

[Roger Jones]

Nico, I've tried so many task management software apps over the years, some of them were too rigid for my peripatetic working life, and equally so when I stopped said lifestyle three years ago. Yesterday one of my tasks was to start streamlining my routines in MS To Do. That task will be continued until it becomes mainly a reminder system, at which point it gets recorded in my manual TVP list.

Just to clarify, 'flipping the notebook" = closing the notebook, close it with the rear cover uppermost, then rotating it through 180 dgrees so that if looks 'normal' when opened.

Crazy musings: I understand. Once I have got my flipping notebook going (to be ordered when I run out of the current notebook), I will spell out in my will what my family should do with any such notebooks after I shuffle off this mortal coil. Hopefully I will have an electronic biography of my life, worts and all, for them to read, or not.

[Mark Forster]

Cameron:

<< would you say that "FVP standing out" is slightly different than "simple scanning standing out"? The latter says "work me now", but the former still requires some comparisons >>

As I've said numerous times in the past, one's intuition doesn't work in a vacuum. It is your knowledge and experience responding to the situation at hand. So even in simple scanning your intuition is taking into account that you need to do x before you do y, that rain is forecast for the afternoon, that your boss expects your report first thing tomorrow and so on.

<< Scribbling out the dots sounds like it would create a lot of visual clutter. >>

Depends on your tolerance for visual clutter. Personally it doesn't worry me, but it drives my wife crazy. The alternative is to cross out and re-enter at the end of the list.

[Mark Forster]

Nico from Sydney:

<< have you thought about setting up a zoom call. I am sure it will be interesting to have a discussion about fvp and time management in general. I am more than willing to help to set it up if you require. >>

I seem to be spending my life on Zoom at the moment, so I'm not keen on more when I really should be getting out and about. However I'll bear it in mind for the future. There is of course nothing to stop you running a call without me, and if you do you're welcome to advertise it in this forum.

[Smeatho]

Hi, Mark.

I've been using plain, vanilla bullet journal for the past 6 months. FVP in this guise is combining very well with it. I'm using the monthly log task page and the subsequent daily logs as the long list. Then I'm using a red felt tip dot over the bullet journal dots to mark the selected tasks and using a vertical line in yellow highlighter to join up adjacent completed tasks.

The combination is suiting my brain and my work better than anything I've tried before (and I started with DIT many moons ago). Just wanted to say thank you for your post and all your work.

[Leon]

Hi Nico, thanks for sharing your notebook images.

So, do you basically use the left hand side pages for notes and scribbles and the right hand pages for your FVP list? That is what it looks as though you are doing.

I'm interested in using one notebook for an FVP list and notes but have thus far struggled. I don't like flipping a notebook and (in the same notebook) I don't like having my task list for example at the front of the notebook and notes at the back.

Any tips and advice is appreciated!

[vegheadjones]

Index cards for notes, filed alphabetically. It has worked wonders for me. Keep your FVP list in one notebook, use cards for routine lists, notes and tickler items.

[Leon]

@vegheadjones

please could you say how you organise this? For example do you carry blank index cards in a the back of a notebook?

[vegheadjones]

Hi,

I have a little case for 3X5 cards, prior to having that I did put them in my notebook.

I use my notebook as an SVP list only, so I use cards for:

Notes
Substeps e.g. I write "inboxes" on my FVP list and the card reminds me of the different inboxes I should review
Tickler items not ready for the FVP list yet.

At my desk I have an inbox for cards, along with two boxes, one with A-Z tabs and one for 1-31 tabs that I use for the date-based cards.

I also overspent at Levenger for an index card stand. It works so well though I feel less guilty about my purchase every time I look at it.

[leon]

@vegheadjones, thanks for taking the time to share you ideas, sounds like you have an effective system!

[Fabien]

Hi, I love the FVP system. However, I have a question about recurring tasks that do not follow each other (for example on Monday / Wednesday / Friday): how do you manage them? In FVP? In a diary next to it?

Has anyone ever tried to use FVP as a calendar and write down events in it?

Thank you for your answers / ideas

And thanks again, Mark, for all your advice.

[Mark Forster]

Fabien:

<< I have a question about recurring tasks that do not follow each other (for example on Monday / Wednesday / Friday): how do you manage them? >>

Generally speaking I work on a two-day rule. That is to say if a task needs to be done every other day it stays on the list. If it needs to be done in three days time then it should be diarised and put back on the list when it is due to be done. So in the example you give, the task would stay on your list during the week but be diarised over the weekend. That of course is assuming that you are not using a separate work list. If you are, then the tasks can stay on the list.

But I want to emphasize that this is purely my rule for myself. It is not part of the "official" rules for the system, and there is nothing to stop you from finding out what works best for yourself and using that.

[Cameron]

"Standing out does not work in a vacuum"

Thanks for the clarification Mark. I'm sure you've said this numerous times, but perhaps I've missed it or wasn't ready to be taught it yet. I think I had been working with standing out in a little bit of a vacuum. Sometimes something would stand out so I'd dot it, all the while knowing there were more urgent thing later on my list I'd like to do first.

Yours was a very helpful comment. Thank you.